Is the Bat-Family an inherently bad idea or is it just the current crop of social media reject writers that have ruined the concept?
It's a kino idea when done well, but rarely is. Even the original concept of it in the 50's was pretty haphazard, and it wasn't any better in the 70's either. Peak Batfamily content was probably the late 90's through the 2000's with a gap in that whole Wargames era until Morrison's bat run gets in gear. The concept works when characters have distinct relationships with eachother within the family. Tim is always cited as a redundant character these days, but when the concept was working in the 90's he had his own distinct relationship with Batman, Nightwing, Huntress, Oracle, etc. When later characters like Damian get added, or Jason returns, their relationship with him is distinct as well.Duke is a character considered pointless these days, and feels like that because he doesn't seem to have any distinct relationships with anyone. How does Duke talk differently to Dick vs Tim? No one knows. He's just neutal to everyone. That's what the issue is these days, It's a bunch of characters with really indistinct and bland interactions.
>>153394316The latter, but also bad editorial guidanceLike >>153394403 said it's not hard to give characters something to do to get them out of Gotham, or characterizations to stand out
>>153394316Family is essential to the Batman universe. Inspired by the death of his parents, and taking in Robin as his adoptive son... they're a family.The Wayne Family Adventures version with 5 Robins, 4 Batgirls, a Batwoman, Signal, etc...Burn it with fire.
>>153394316It's an inherently bad idea that contradicts the lone vigilante trope of Batman and cheapens his dark, brooding experience and mood. "Superhero family" only belongs in goodie-two-shoes starbright serials like Superman or Shazam.
>>153394984> It's an inherently bad idea that contradicts the lone vigilante trope of BatmanBatman was inspired by the Shadow who had his agents and footsoldiers. It’s a very pulp concept.
>>153394316Alfred (R.I.P.), Bruce, Dick, Damian and sometimes Jason makes sense to see and treat each other like family of a sort, but the rest of the hanger-ons just come off as pathetic when they have their own lives, friends and family and are evidently just squatting around in costume in hopes the relevance of Batman will rub off on them.Also Damian has an excuse through continued youth so far, but as much juicy drama as it makes for Dick and Jason are too old to be acting like teens going through puberty. That shit was tired back in the Batman & Robin movie, it's fucking comatose today. Unplug and bury it.
>>153394316It’s a terrible idea. It’s just a group of characters with the exact same abilities and nothing meaningful to do. Back then, nobody minded it because the group was small and everyone had their own thing going on, but now the group is getting bigger and bigger. They have no variety whatsoever. The only reason people still like this idea is because they want to see character interactions, but those interactions end up feeling copy-pasted from Tumblr or Ao3, which is really boring and annoying. I think the only way it could work decently is if the group stopped pretending to be one big happy family. I don’t mean they have to hate each other, just that they should have different opinions and relationships. But that’s probably not happening, because most fans just want comfy, nothingburger stories where everyone hugs it out, so most writers just stick to that instead of doing something fresh, and the story just keeps repeating itself without going anywhere.
>>153394316Its not a bad idea cus once you have batgirl introduced you already have basically a bat family. When it gets stupid is when modern batwoman is part of it, and theyre a brand so they need token gays so now tim is gay, could go on. But no not strictly a bad idea.
>>153394826There's nothing wrong with Batman having a big family, specially since he lost his as a kid, it makes sense that he wouldn't just stop at 1 Robin, specially as that Robin started growing apart.
>>153395291>Alfred (R.I.P.), Bruce, Dick, Damian and sometimes Jason makes senseWhy not Tim? He doesn't have a family anymore, and even before that, hanging out with Dick gave them a brother-like relationship.And what about Cass? She literally got adopted by Bruce, she renounced her "true" family for a Batdad.You're right about the others tho, Babs, Steph, and Duke all have families, but I'd argue they're close enough to count as "Family".
>>153395056The Shadow's agents are quite literally in the dark about who he is or the full scope of his operations, they weren't all sitting around watching movies or making pancakes or other gay effeminate shit with him
Anything beyond the Robins is too much for me. I think even Batgirl is a stupid as shit concept even though she's sexy as hell, like goddamn I get horny every time I see Babs she was fuckin fine back in the days
People's arguments against the family usually boil down to just "I don't like this character, get rid of it".
>>153394316Everyone who cries about the batfamily are socially retarded loners
>>153395967My argument is it’s fake and gay, it’s all laying groundwork for future adaptations they need women to watch
>>153394316it was fine but like most decent ideas it was run into the ground by hacks. In general they miss the main point that Bruce (or any ____-family character) is the centerpiece that needs a strong relationship with all the add-ons. Then those add-ons start intermingling forming their own bonds and dynamics. Nowadays it really feels like writers like the family brownie points but without putting in real work with developing nor even just understanding the existing dynamics and why they could make an interesting story
>>153396045You can't hide your true feelings behind misogyny, I know deep down you just don't like the characters.
>>153395832>Babs, Steph, and Duke all have families, but I'd argue they're close enough to count as "Family".They're why I had to cut off even Tim, once one exception is made from closeness or technically being accepted as Robin or a sidekick the sieve turns into a funnel.That might read like melodramatic fanboy gatekeeping, but many anons only forget from time passed how narrowly we avoided Bluebird being another addition because readers were vocally getting fed up how many strays were just waltzing in.Despite being called the Batfam the hard line to me is now person with ties to Bruce and then Batman vs person associating with Batman and also Batman without his mask on. That way as adorable as she was as a Robin, Maps isn't Batfam.Reverse logic applies to shit like Ghost-Maker, even if he's written meeting Bruce first his whole deal is clearly is focused on stapling him to Batman.
>>153394316Batman having a family and being sort of a father figure isn't necessary a bad idea, but him forced into the role of being their actual father doesn't work because he can't fill this role.
>>153396222>him forced into the role of being their actual father doesn't work because he can't fill this role.That's what makes it interesting tho
>>153396222Bruce having to learn on the job is what makes it good. It's like an advanced version of a master/apprentice relationship
>>153395917Batgirl is originally fine too cus she did not live in the cave she was a seperate person who helped in action only its still not a "bat family" even with her until later, until Dick splits to a new hero identity and theres like 3-4 robins
>>153396244>>153396270It's not because writers aren't making it interesting. They write Batman is too unhinged for the fruity "wholsome" moments we randomly get sometimes. I frankly cringe everytime I see Tim or Dick calls him "dad".
>>153396308obviously they aren't doing it now, but they used to. Robins pretty much exist to humanize Bruce which is somehow lost on these nu-writers. Nothing they've done with batman in like 10 years has been good unless you like seeing trainwrecks
>>153396346I'm not arguing against that since Batman and Robin are supposed to have a special dynamic, but my point is that Batman being seen as a father for an army of kids simply doesn't work. The Batfam as it is today too shallow and boring.
>>153395846>>153394984You seem like an incredibly boring person.
>>153396420You sound incredibly female-coded, xister
>>153396420He isn't necessarily wrong, though. It fit his character better to have a small circle of people he cares for than a huge family.
>>153394316The latter plus the batfamily being too big.>>153396346Funnily enough, his relationship with Clark and to some extent Hal have done more to humanize him than his interactions with the batfamily for the past decade.
>>153396400well yeah it's a matter of relationships and scale. The robins all obviously fit except maybe Jason and steph. Babs pretty much became their den-mother after being chaired so she's kinda in. Cass was super into batman from the jump and was actually adopted but who knows if that's canon anymore. From there it gets super shaky which is a product of the worse writers who have utterly failed to really build up any of the new guys with strong relationships even though they tried some hammy shit
>>153394316>Is the Bat-Family an inherently bad ideaYes.>>153394403A Bat-Army is much better.
>>153396759Except Jason? He is in particular that can't be excluded even if he doesn't necessarily need to spend time with them. Steph has no actual bond with Bruce and I always disliked the idea of Cass of being adopted since her parents are well and alive and Bruce is hardly a better option than them.
>>153396553I actually like the dynamic between Bruce and Hal more than with Clark because Hal actually calls him out on his bs without being mean-spirited about it compared to Clark who became more of pushover.
>>153394316I stand by the idea that no concept is inherently bad, just subject to bad writers and bad execution.
>>153396824Jason is important for a couple of reasons big picture and lore wise, but if we distill batfam into Bruce's inner circle then he's obviously out. They straight up don't see eye to eye and Jason's whole position is one of antagonism even if they force him to play nice sometimes. Steph has a bond with Bruce but it's complicated and she definitely wouldn't be inner circle. She's like a Jason/Dick fusion but turned out "better" than Jason which is why Bruce couldn't leave her alone and had some faith in her. The Cass thing is fine. It was meant to be a gesture to give her stability and there are a bunch of orphans with living biological parents anyway. Cass was the closest thing to a daughter or daughter-like feelings Bruce ever exhibited
>>153396855I personally don't get why Superman even bother with Batman at the point. People got mad, but Bendis had the right idea when he had Superman revealing that he sometimes truly wants to get rid of Batman.
>>153396893Jason is family and will always be to Bruce. No matter how complicated things can get between them, Bruce will never give up on him because he actually loves him while he quickly give up on steph.
>>153396949he's family in a black sheep, I hope my brother stops drinking one day kind of way. I guess that counts for something. Ironically shades of Jason was his whole problem with Steph but eventually he came around when he made her Batgirl, though that was really just another heavy-handed apology because fans were pissed just like the Cass adoption thing. It's all canon though
>>153396893>Jason is important for a couple of reasons big picture and lore wiseYou make it sound like Jason is some random Batman meet once and feel guilty for not saving and not a kid he actually took under his wing and made him his son and Robin.
>>153397069it's not that far off. Jason was Robin for less than 6 months iirc and they made sure to retcon in a bunch of shit to emphasize how unpleasant it was even though the real run wasn't that bad until leading up to DitF
>>153397051Black sheep he might be, but his importance to Bruce can't be understatemented under the category of a distance "drinking brother". He is one of the very few characters that Batman has actually admitted his love for.
>>153396824>He is in particular that can't be excluded even if he doesn't necessarily need to spend time with them.Yeah, let’s just ignore that killing criminals is literally the core of his character, which goes completely against everything Bruce stands for. If the past five years haven’t made it clear that Jason can’t really be with them, then you might want to get your brain checked.
>>153395832>>153396759Cass was never officially adopted and it got retconned after the timeline reset. Bruce and Cass haven't had any significant interactions that could be seen as a father-daughter relationship since then.
>>153397164Yeah, that can't simply work because he originally was supposed to be 9 when Bruce met him and died around 14-15. The 6 months was just a recton that got rectoned and never made sense anyway.
>>153397195>which goes completely against everything Bruce stands forYeah, let's not star talking about Batman's long sheet of crimes that actually put Jason to shame because I can't tell you aren't ready for this conversation nor am I in mood for it.
>>153394316What's the difference? With or without the batfamily, everyone would be complaining about the comics.
>>153397275Yeah yeah, “Batman bad too”. Still doesn’t make Jason belong there.
>>153397275Jason's criminal record does look cute next Batman's.
I think super hero teams work best when each of them has a unique gimmick or power. The big problem with the Bat Family is that even though some of them have unique identities, their gimmicks are too similar to each other.
Terry is the best member of the Batfamily.
>>153397195Putting what "Bruce stands for" aside because it's quite ironic statement, the point is that Jason is important to Bruce and will always be and he is treated as part of the inner circle of batfam.
>>153395791>There's nothing wrong with Batman having a big family, specially since he lost his as a kid, it makes sense that he wouldn't just stop at 1 Robin, specially as that Robin started growing apart.I'm not that anon but I think if they wanted a bigger family they should have expanded on his surrogate grandkids. As in his sidekick's kids sort of like in Kingdom Come. But of course this is pretty much impossible in comics because of status quo and sliding timelines and shit. We need uncle and aunt figures too. Also Batman's Trex should be a sentient dinosaur and part of the batfamily.
>>153397522He literally only exists in what is basically a bad future where there is no Bat-Family.
>>153397645>if they wanted a bigger family they should have expanded on his surrogate grandkids.Woah woah woahWe can't have Batman being THAT old.Not mainline Batman at least, maybe you could get an Elseworld book out of seeing Bruce's grandkids.>We need uncle and aunt figures too.Batwoman exists and I guess Jim counts? I dunno>Batman's Trex should be a sentient dinosaur and part of the batfamily.Best idea in this thread.
>>153397645you're going in the wrong direction. The next "good" development is Bruce finding someone who isn't a fickle, thieving whore and the important kids putting her through the ringer until she proves herself worthy
>>153397655>where there is no Bat-Family.I mean they're an estranged Bat-Family but that's what made Return of the Joker and Terry's relationship with Batman and Comissioner (Barbara) Gordon so good.
I don't mind the family, but I wish writers would actually have them interact with each other instead of just putting them in pairs or trios.Like, how is it that Cass and Damian still haven't had a substantial story together? They've barely interacted, that's just insane.A friendship between Jason and Steph was somehow established before they did anything with all the characters that share a dad.
>>153397645Bat-Family Grandkids coming 2027.
>>153397727Why hasn't anyone made a story called BatFamily Reunion yet
>>153397696What kind of woman would that even be? Or even preexisting character?
>>153397738Why cant the men open their eyes
>>153397780The women eated their eyes </3
This is going to sound fucking stupid but I don't understand why the Bat family all have to be bat themed. One or two are fine but Robins and Nightwing and Red Hood aren't bat themed. So a big problem with variety is that they never do anything but variations on robins/nightwings/bats. I'm not sure what else you could do that fits? Someone with a Catwoman Moniker? Just something totally different? Clayface just crashed on Batman's couch? I have no idea all I know is birds aren't bats
>>153397764I think a underrated choice would be Sasha Bordeaux, his former bodyguard
>>153397764someone compassionate, understanding, can look after herself, and can force him to stop when he needs to for his own good. Basically wonderwoman but she's not allowed so somebody like wonderwoman
>>153397864I wish we got a new season of Batman Beyond after JLU to see how dynamics and characters like WW could be integrated integrated back into Beyond. Because Bruce growing old and bitter seems like an alternate universe after JLU.
>>153397738>Jason with Rose.Gross. Jason deserves his Amazonian shieldmaiden, not the village bicycle.
>>153397850They should’ve killed Selina Kyle off at the end of Tom King’s run and have one of the Batgirls take up the mantle of Catwoman for a while.
>>153397530Jason being important to Bruce doesn’t mean he fits in the same group when his whole approach clashes with them. You’re mixing emotional attachment with reality.
>>153397850the real reason is the bat editorial is super protective of their characters ever since the Dick/Nightwing fiasco and don't want to risk that again. Stuff like Tim drawing from his Bart/Cass/Kon influence or even possibly being Blue Beetle (no scarab) one day will never be allowed again
>>153397970>not the village bicycle.But Artemis is literally the village bicycle?
>>153397764I'd go with someone new, start her off as one of the maids in the manor before becoming head of staff, eventually finding out Bruce is Batman and taking over the Alfred role. She got a job there through Leslie Thompkins recommending her to Alfred after she worked with Leslie during No Man's Land, because she's going to need some kind of medical background if she's to fill Alfred's role.I think the important thing wouldn't be having her love Batman, but the Bruce that sits in the cave with the cowl off trying to solve a mystery
>>153398085>Dick/Nightwing fiasco and don't want to risk that again.What happened?
>>153398791Dick Grayson essentially became unshackled from the batman franchise and nightwing was straight up not a batman character nor creation. It wasn't a huge deal at the time because they could just make a new robin and thought that mattered more than the character Dick Grayson. This enabled all sorts of liberties to be taken with his character that probably wouldn't fly for a batman character. He was also a massive success with the titans for a while so that pretty much cemented his new status. Then then late 80s/90s came and the Titans were tanking from what they were while Batman was booming. Despite that Dick and his relationship with Starfire were still super popular and was leading to a highly anticipated event with their wedding. In the final hour leading up to it the bat department won a behind the scenes struggle for Dick who was a super popular character and important to bat lore, so the wedding was changed/canceled and the future Dickfire book was canceled with Dick returning to batbooks full time. Then with Dick's return he was immediately shackled to Batman first as his temp replacement after knight's end and then later he was chained to not-gotham aka Bludhaven so he couldn't stray too far away. The rest is history
>>153394984>his dark, brooding experiencesounds gayhit this man in the cock with the hammers of justice
>>153397738At this point, it's plausible that Jason gets married and has a kid before Dick.
>>153394316It's currently a mess. How do you even fuck this up?>DickThe golden boy alumni>Jason An eternal reminder of everything wrong with dad's morals and way of life>Tim DrakeThe sperg>Damien WayneThe spoiled biological son>BarbaraFriend of the family's daughter>AlfredEveryone's grandpa.>CassAdopted runaway traumatized foster child
>>153399839What about Steph? You know, the sperg's ex-girlfriend who he used to be really in love with until he came out of the closet and dumped her, but by then she was already so ingrained into the family that she kept hanging out with them and being invited to their reunions.
>>153394316The original idea of there being a loosely-connected group of Batman-themed or -inspired characters who mostly worked in the same city was fine when it was just a relatively small group. The problem is that every new addition after Tim and Azrael is just an attempt to replace an earlier character who's still around, or a the writer's worthless OC who exists for reasons of "trying to make my mark on the book" or hope of getting the OC into adaptations and merch for royalty money. And a lot of people probably consider Tim and Azrael debatable. Spoiler existing is fine, but she was originally just supporting cast/love interest for Tim, she doesn't need to be "part of the Bat Family". Likewise, Huntress being around, and Jason being back as Red Hood are fine as vigilantes operating in Gotham who aren't part of the 'Bat Family', sometimes Batman or whoever will work alongside them, sometimes be at odds with them.Once you get to a point where there's a whole room full of about 20 'Bat Family' characters and all of the other Gotham area vigilantes have been brought into the group, things have gone badly wrong.
>>153400666There really are only 20+ in the Bat-Family if you count fucking EVERYONE, and not just Batman's immediate inner circle, aka the Robins and the Batgirls.So really it's more Batman himself + 7 or 8 at most depending on how they feel that day.But even then, Bruce doesn't have the whole family with him all the time, that'd be silly, it's usually just Robin every other time, everyone else has their own thing going on.
>>153396308Dick casually calling Bruce dad is always awful, unless dripping with sarcasm. It should be a big deal when either of them use those words.>>153397780It's not about Jason's eyes, it's about Rose's. You just know the writer and artist don't know that she's Hmong.
>>153397197> Cass was never officially adoptedShe was thoughYou keep denying it even after the pages get posted.
>>153397727> A friendship between Jason and Steph was somehow established before they did anything with all the characters that share a dad.They were getting compared a lot even before Jason came back so that’s natural. The two share really similar origins.
>>153395846> The Shadow's agents are quite literally in the dark about who he is or the full scope of his operationsActually not that different from how the extended Batfamily could be handled sometimes. I don’t think Huntress ever found his identity, Steph was Robin without ever knowing his identity, precrisis Babs didn’t know, Catwoman didn’t until the 2000’s. I don’t think Azrael knew until Bruce recruited him to be Batman directly. I wouldn’t mind that to happen again, like if you’re gonna keep Duke or Batwing around, they don’t need to know Bruce.
>>153401047>The two share really similar origins.How? Steph's upbringing was light work compared to Jason. The only thing in common is the criminal father. You don't see Steph parenting their crack/heroin/whatever-fiend mom till she OD's. Steph didn't have to sell ass to eat.
>>153401100>Steph didn't have to sell ass to eat.What was she up to when the quake struck?
>>153401100Steph’s mom was on her way to be another OD if not for things turning out a little better. It’s implied she basically raised herself. She wasn’t as destitute as Jason but the two were compared by readers and eventually in the comics themselves
>>153396270>>153396046>>153396893Ugly art hurts the soul
I don't care about this trite topic.I am here simply to ask the really important questions: When are Steph and Cass going to kiss?
>>153401608>Rick Leonardi.... ugly art your taste is trash
>>153399036>Despite that Dick and his relationship with Starfire were still super popular and was leading to a highly anticipated event with their wedding.Except the ship had long lost steam by that point and the Bat editorial barely saved Dick Grayson from the Titans’ mediocrity. Dick lost put on the golden Batman had in the early 90s as a result of staying a Titan.
>>153396949Maybe but Bruce's love is conditional.>Bruce will never give up on him He did. He assumes Jason killed Felipe based on assumption alone. It's why Jason runs away to find his surprise mother and dies. The whole Batfam narratively threw Jason under the bus to not think too hard about the concepts of child soldiers and responsibilities.
Even the Arrow family is cool
>>153397739Isn't that WFA?
>>153395791>There's nothing wrong with Batman having a big familyIt's corny. Kids look at it and expect something like Power Rangers but Batman but get melodrama and therapy circles. Too many of the usual suspects go out of their way to make it the lamest shit ever.
>>153395917If it was just Batman and Batgirl and they were fucking, that'd be fine.
>>153403765No.
>>153402508He may be a good artist, but not in those pages/panels.
>>153403765Hell no
>>153397645>Husband: her uncleYeah yeah, I know the familial relationship is through adoption and there's not even an age gap.
>>153404210It’s corny? Bitch, this is a fucking comic book about a man who dresses up like a bat.
>>153403762This is a very streamlined and wrong order of events. The Felipe issue never lead to him being put off duty and he even helped Batman stop Felipe’s father a bit later.
>>153404270Hell yes!
>>153397693Ollie has surrogate grandkids
>>153399800I think so about marriage. But he’ll most likely have a kid. (Steph beat him by decades though).
>>153404990Yeah, but no one cares about Ollie.
>>153400458And don’t forget about Duke.And cousin Kate Kane.
>>153404457Streamlined, yes. Wrong order, no. Felipe leads to his father, which leads to DitF. The middle episode is just more confirmation for Bruce's arrested opinion on Jason.
>>153394316>an inherently bad ideaNope. Batman having a troupe of devotees that have been personally trained by and sworn allegiance to him is a great concept. I love the idea that people with super powers take a step back when they encounter one of Batman's group because they know they're fucking great and are NOT to be fucked with. Damien kind of ruined that.
>>153405140I care about Ollie. Smith's run in the 2000s brought him up so much.
>>153394403>It's a kino idea when done well, but rarely is.Comic book readers of cape shit aren't interested in relationships between the characters. At most, they will accept or tolerate (in the Batgod's case), Batgod with say Selina or Talia, or they would be okay with Jim and Batgod, or Dick and Batgod, etc. etc. They don't want issue after issue of feelings, and emotions, conversations and ideas.So, no, for most readers of cape shit, it's not a "kino" idea. The people it works for are the casual fans (many of them female) for whom Wayne Family Adventures is their concept of the Batfam, it is there that Duke works as a token in the same way that Tim works (now) as a token, that all the females actually exist on every page and not just as after thoughts, and in their own way, as tokens, etc. etc.
>>153405718Didn’t Snyder confirm Jason didn’t kill Felipe in that DCKO event
>>153405927except people do want that; the people in charge are just dogshit at delivering it so we get flanderized garbage like WFA. Fans general like seeing them interact and doing shit together which is why the idea took off and spread elsewhere with batman being the posterboy. DC just used to be better at crafting and developing stuff whereas now it feels like lazy checklists or something
>>153405927Relationships aren't just feelings and emotions, but dynamics and interaction, anon.My example of Tim comes from how his actions were with other characters, not just him talking about his feelings. How Tim would act or fight or talk with Nightwing would be different from how he would interact with Huntress. Because he has different standing with those characters he's going to end up in different situations with them. He'll team up with Nightwing, and be at odds with Huntress because they have different relations to him and different goals. Tim is reluctant to work with Huntress because she's more violent and not sanctioned by Batman. He's guarded because Huntress is a teacher and could be likely to find his identity.And Nightwing himself would have a different interaction with Huntress than Tim would. He's more guided by his attraction to her. Everyone is just sort of on the same wavelength these days which is the issue. Evidently it was popular with the fanbase enough to have letters requesting more interactions back then too. This Nightwing issue is a good example. It was made because the editors asked Dixon to do an issue with Tim and Dick interacting, it is about the character's relationships and experiences, but it's done through an action sequence where they're training and it leads to them busting up some bad guys too.
>>153406111To be fair, this version of Tim hasn't existed since Johns' Teen Titans run started. All his modern fans want is THE GREATEST ROBIN EVER (TM)
>>153404440>Bitch, this is a fucking comic book about a man who dresses up like a bat.Which isn't presented as corny at all and instead taken completely seriously, and it works. Your excuse doesn't apply. Majority just prefer Batman solo or hanging with some hot chick like James Bond.
>>153406656I'd say red robin was an attempt to course correct, though it was very wanky and still leaned into Bruce 2.0 super competency. It did rebuild his personality after whatever that johns shit and lingering fallout was and try to reestablish his life, friends, goals, etc. Been all downhill since though outside of the all to brief reunion with Steph. I do find it very ironic that his supposed low point that he overcame in the run has somehow become his major issue as a character despite it being both trivial and unnecessary but that could apply to a lot of stuff nowadays. Tim probably more than any bat feels like a completely different character than he used to be and it seems to get worse with every new take. Maybe Steph is as bad since they seem to have taken whole chunks out of her personality too and she sort of feels like a characiture of what she was
>>153405987No idea. I don't read DC anymore and don't care about the did-he-or-did-he-not. It is a scapegoat to argue about Jason's "anger issues" and to not address the elephant in the room. > The mistrust and discontentment displayed by both parties before the final even hit> Batman making a lot of judgments based on his assumptions > Jason making no excuse for not trying to save Felipe
>>153406773The majority also think the MCU isn’t slop. Fuck them.
