Why is 'evil superheroes' always the justice league even though Marvel is now considered the 'hip' and more popular right now? Like imagine a satire where Iron Man is a profiteer who struggles with alcoholism. Or Hulk is a Jekyll and Hyde where the Hulk represents Banner's inner urges that he struggles to keep under control. Or a Captain America is a rough around the edges like how he would be if he was in the 1950s. Or how Thor is a hot headed bruiser who jumps into fights that he actually got banished for it by Odin
>>153404357they did that in the ultimates and everybody hated it
>>153404357their powers are more recognizable and dynamic when doing a superhero parody/subversion/critique>strongest guy in the world>fast guy>water guy>woman>alien guy>batmannow compare this to the (mcu) avengers that most people know>robot suit >super soldier>super soldier again >bow guy>god of thunder>monsternot only did the justice league come first, it gets the point across better and has more to work with
>>153404615So if you replace Hawkeye and Black Widow with Wolverine and Spider-Man, it would work better?
Most recent I can think of, MHA had knockoff yakuza avengers
>>153404357Are you talking about parodies made outside of comics or in comics? Cause there have been Avengers parodies within comics. Millar and Quitely's first arc of The Authority where the Authority fights Avengers knock-offs comes to mind.Outside of comics it was probably because Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were more recognizable outside of comics for decades so it's easy to grasp a generalized parody of them
>>153404357Because Marvel's A-listers are already fuck-ups and losers who lack mythopoeic resonance.
>>153404357DC, in the interim between Seduction of the Innocent and Atlas's rebranding to Marvel, had been desperately trying to whitewash their power players. There is a large portion of the population who grew up on that era (and the adaptations of that era that popped up on TV in the following decades), and those people know DC's heroes as paragons in a childlike world. Most of Marvel's lines with modern appeal took advantage of the pendulum's backswing and stood out by being more realistic compared to DC's public-facing output of the era. Those versions of the characters became the ones that occupy the modern consciousness through the MCU, and the Marvel line-up is less ripe for more "mature" parody as a result.
>>153404357>Hulk is a Jekyll and Hyde where the Hulk represents Banner's inner urges that he struggles to keep under controlnobody tell him
>>153404357>Marvel is now considered the 'hip' and more popular right now?this is not accurate, for one
>>153404357You're trying to make these characters sound cool, but actually reading their comics they're lame as fuck.
>>153407746You're lame as fuck.
>>153407746This.
>>153404357JL has the best of the best, The Avengers are just a halfway house for losers who can't carry a book.
>>153407746Sorry X-Men has been down the drain for 30 years but stop malding at the actual worthwhile part of Marvel.
>>153407842You do realise that most Avengers members actually still get and had long running solo runs just like most of the prominent Justice League members?
>>153407878Like what?
DC has gods pretending to be humanMarvel has humans pretending to be godsIt's more satisfying to tear down gods than humans
>>153409737DC has actual Heroes.Marvel is just celebrities with powers.
>>153407904Captain America, Thor, Iron man, Hulk even if he's not as much of an Avenger member as adaptions make him and Scarlet Witch have all gotten runs over the years. Even Vision had his own comic but....well it was Tom King written and we know how well that turned out for Batman and Wonder Woman. Also a character not having their own run doesn't automatically mean they are a bad character or couldn't have one if there wasn't the write team for it, especially considering what absolutely shit characters have had runs such as Miles or Harley Quinn.
>>153409931Doctor Druid, Jack of Hearts.All the Stars are here!
>>153409737>DC has gods pretending to be human>Marvel has humans pretending to be godsYeah if yo never read a comic in your life I can see why people would say that?
>>153404414The only reason people "hate" the Ultimates is because Mark Millar is a right wing conservative. They just hear 'a right winger wrote the Avengers' and immediately jump to demonize it and smear it without actually engaging with the content of the Ultimates. Because anything on the lefts side is good, and anything on the rights side is evil and must be demonized as such.The hate people have to for the Ultimates and Mark Millar is so obviously disingenous and biased, and nobody calls it out for what it is.
>>153404357There was actually an Iron Man expy in the original Boys comic named Tech Knight, and he was one of the only Superheros in the Boys-Verse who wasn't completely evil.
>>153410015Red Tornado and Vibe, see it's easy naming characters who haven't got runs or are just stuck in the supporting role lines in a superhero team. Course I'm not being a smarmy twat while trying to discuss something. Mind you I'll agree on DC being more willing to give it's other characters books even with the make characters look worse to prop up Batman in books and adaptions mark is still against them.
>>153410240I hate Ultimates cause it's just awful takes on the characters that has aged like shit, politics has nothing to do with making Hank Pym an abuser based on a single panel and erasing all trace of his actual character or making Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver incestuous plus Miller's weird pathological weirdness with the Hulk.
>>153410369>Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver incestuousThat was entirely Jeph Loebs doing after Millar got booted from the Ultimate line. Millar said he wouldn't have gone that far.
>>153409737Easy ass bait
>>153410369ultimates is fun though, who doesn't love drunk iron man or hippie schizo thor or cap calling hulk a sissy?it's highly entertaining in a similar fashion to ASBAR, but of course much less retarded
>>153410369>making Hank Pym an abuser Like it or not. 616 Hank Pym's reputation as a character will always be tied back to the time he hit Janet. For better and for worse. Because it was the first interesting thing that happened to his character, that actually gave him some development beyond just 'smart science guy who can shrink and grow'. Millar just leaned into It worked in making him a real pathetic slimeball human being, an interesting character, even if not necessarily a likeable one. Cap beating him up to avenge Janet up was easily of the high points of the Ultimates, I wish the MCU had adapted that scene.
>>153409737>DC has gods pretending to be human>Marvel has humans pretending to be godsThis...actually makes a lot of sense. Good stuff, anon.
>>153410545>>153409737This is a brainlet take.
>>153410395I don't believe that considering Nemesis literally also has an even more mental incest related plot point in it.
>>153404615This guy gets it. I'm not sure how to describe it further since I don't see JLA or Avengers as better than the other, just different, but for the sake of having a stand in or however one would phrase these homages, the JLA has an easier time.The only Avengers version I can think of is the Justice Friends from Dexter's Lab but that's a parody and they make the Captain America stand in a Superman one as well, but otherwise has a Hulk and Thor take part.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjZ_ebFJm9A
>>153410515You can just say you've not actually read anything with Hank Pym like West Coast Avengers, the Busiek run or Avengers Academy which showcase Hank can be a solid character besides just being the science shrinking guy and not just go for the lowest hanging fruit possible when depicting him like Millar did or Austen in 616. Also it wasn't even the most interesting thing, him having mental issues cause he's Bipolar and his insecurities regarding himself or his entire dynamic with Ultron his insane robot son are more interesting then just the single panel of him lashing out at Janet. The new Ultimates book also treats Hank pretty shit even if they make him nicer cause they have him hate in the mainline version of the character and get literal brain damage to "fix" him while he is also the most sidelined character in the book.
>>153410395Is Millar's PR team trying to push the idea that Millar never intended Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch to be incestuousBecause he kept saying in interviews they were in a relationship
>>153404357marvel already writes their characters as conflicted anti-heroes, so its superfluous to make them evil
>>153411201He was going to have the relationship be hinted at, but never confirmed or explicitly consumated.
>>153411415So he was still gonna have that awful idea but just be cowardly about it. I have no idea how Marvel let's these absolute hacks just run amok with these characters and stories.
>>153412483The Ultimate Universe was supposed to be where you could test out the controversial ideas that would have the fans burn you in effigy if a writer did them in the mainline 616.
>>153410240Linkara has hated the Ultimates way before the culture war shit
>>153413314Linkara hated the Ultimates for liberal reasons. Mostly because he has a leftist preconception of Captain America as a champion for progressive virtue, when realistically he'd be easily the most conservative person on the Avengers, as he is portrayed as in The Ultimates.
>>153409737>Marvel has humans pretending to be godsNobody tell Thor.
>>153404357I got the joke, OP.Kinda flubbed it with Cap though. I would have gone with him having PTSD from losing Bucky.
>>153404357>Hulk is a Jekyll and Hyde where the Hulk represents Banner's inner urges that he struggles to keep under control.that what the hulk is newfag.
>>153409737you weren't supposed to take batgod literally.
>>153413588That's the joke Anon. OP is just describing the characters as they already are and have been for decades, though for Steve that really only fits with Ultimate.
>>153413411What "realistically" works doesn't matter cause it's not remotely in character with Steve Rogers as he's been for 50 years. I know it's an alternate universe/rendition so there will be changes but that is also no excuse to throw everything out about a characters personality for early 2000's America cynicism that had aged like milk.
>>153404357The average normalfag is more familiar with the flaws of the individual Avengers, while the JL is still seen as "pure," so making the latter evil is seen as more subversive.
>>153413970Not really.
>>153409737lmao this is such a retarded thing to say considering DC heroes literally live normal ass lives and most of them are humans, even if they're metahumans >>153404357The Justice League is synonymous with superheroes as a term. Mythic, ideal, very pulpy...fairy tale like. Avengers...they belong to Marvel's philosophy of "the world outside your window". Cynical. Dark. Deconstructive. Gritty. Objectivist/Cynical. Very much molded by horror and the Cold Wardoesn't make sense to take apart something that's already been taken apart
>>153404615Yeah, DC's flagship heroes have a stronger hold on "superhero iconography" in most people's minds
>>153416105>Avengers...they belong to Marvel's philosophy of "the world outside your window". Cynical. Dark. Deconstructive. Gritty. Objectivist/Cynical. Very much molded by horror and the Cold WarWtf are you talking about? It was created as Marvel answer to the JL that's all
>>153416926That's the Fantastic Four. The Avengers was made up of characters who weren't popular enough for their own runs so they were consolidated into one. And it is how the guy described. You have Captain America crashing out every issue over lacking flashy powers, the Hulk bailed out early cause it's the Hulk, there was a storyline where Iron Man went cowboy cop and Tony Stark pretended to fire him because of that
Ultimates already beat them to the punch.
>>153407878Only if you pretend the movie/debut team is the actual Avengers.
>>153410240i loved his other stuff but ultimates was hilarious edgy. there was a domestic abuse scene where he sprayed bug spray onto her
>>153410240I only really liked Ultimates when they fought the commie invader team. The rest of it just feels like build up with no satisfying payoff, or lead in to crappy events.
>>153418897Why did you jump from very early issues to Armor Wars in your examples?
>>153404357Would spider chud be the dark version of spider man?
>>153404357I don't know. Team books suck.
>>153409737>DC has gods pretending to be human>Marvel has humans pretending to be godsI really like this
>>153420140There is an evil spiderman in the DC universe, black spiderhttps://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Eric_Needham_(Earth-16)
>>153410545>>153421498midwit
>>153418964Millar trafficks at same that crossroads between so edgy it's horrifying and so edgy it's funny that Garth Ennis and Warren Ellis do.
>>153416105>The Justice League is synonymous with superheroes as a term. Mythic, ideal, very pulpy...fairy tale like.Shame DC can't seem to get their head out of their ass and actually portray them that way in the majority of their films and television shows.
