I mean I used to be a fan, but I actually read through 60's marvel and I kept asking myself:Why do characters not shut up?Why do characters besides the hulk refer to themselves in 3rd-person?Why do characters keep saying 'whistlin Dixie's?Why do we need a narration box telling us the scorpion burst through a window, when the panel shows the scorpion bursting through a window?Why is Reed telling Sue how to use her powers when the image shows that he is clearly unconscious?Why is Doc Ock say that when he reaches the ground he'll escape, when the image shows him climbing UP the building.Why did the lizard say I must find and destroy Spider-Man, but try to evade Spider-Man the rest of the issue.Why is it that when Jack Kirby left Marvel he created Darkseid, and Steve Ditko the Question. But all stan Lee made without any help was Stripperella. What has aged well from classic Marvel is the pencils and general story, what Jack and Steve did. what hasn't is the script, the inking and the colors. All Stan did was Ruin great works with 'the Marvel Method'This guy took credit for all the work other artists did while running his company, I'd compare him to been the Lars Ulric of Marvel but at least Lars was pivotal in the writing of songs. He's like the Sharon Osborne Marvel
>>153418831>This guy took credit for all the work other artists did while running his company,When?
Op here, I'm banned from r/Comicbooks for posting the same thing.
>>153418831I see Bill Mahar has entered the chat.
>>153418831Alan Moore was right about Stan Lee being a lying grifter.
>>153419473Alan Moore is a miserable cunt with no sense of irony or awareness
>>153418938https://youtu.be/1iFV1HdO2pQ?si=OHIP1_4_CjH8u30Y
>>153418831>Why do characters not shut up?Writers are paid by the word.
>>153419478Alan Moore just tells it like it is. Jack Kirby made all the Marvel characters and Stan Lee took all the credit.
>>153418831>thing I don't like should be changed to please meYou sound like a minority woman.
>>153419495No
>>153419495Stan Lee is the only reason marvel was able to sell any of these comics at all and if not for him there wouldn't be a marvel. Alan Moore meanwhile has made a career of using other people's IPs or knock offs thereof.
>>153419794Stan Lee was a salesman and he wrote the script, Alan Moore is a writer.
>>153421029Nice cope, Moorefag
>>153419495>Alan Moore just tells it like it is.Alan Moore wasn't even there, he's just repeating third hand information he's taking as fact. What he has to say about what was going on in 1960s Marvel is no more valid than some anon here pretending his dad works at Marvel and knows everything.
>>153418831>Why do characters not shut up?My thoughts exactly seeing your long ass post.
>>153421200What cope? It's general knowledge. Marvel did well because Stan was a salesman.
>>153419495That's not true. Ditko made some as well y'know
>>153422636Funny he couldn't sell anything before Kirby and Ditko, or anything new after them.
>>153422545Moore also has a notoriously bad memory. He says it all the time, but I guess no one really fact checks him in person.>>153422739He didn't really get started until he teamed up with Kirby.
>>153421200Nice arrest, alansperg.
>>153418831Sharon Osbourne was the reason Ozzy lived that long though
>>153425299He was in charge for years beforehand but regardless that doesn't change the years of scams, failure, and hackery that followed after
>>153418831His dialogue has charm, but yeah, he needs to know when to shut his characters up. He likely knew, but wanted that word count to put out a meaty issue every month.
>>153418831>Why is it that when Jack Kirby left Marvel he created Darkseid, and Steve Ditko the Question. But all stan Lee made without any help was Stripperella.Darkseid, The Question, and Stripperella are not household names, like Spider-Man and the Hulk. The reality is that Jack and Steve needed salesman Stan to sell their stuff to the comic book-buying audience of the 1960s. When they went their separate ways, none of them were ever as good again. Whatever their personal quirks and tense relationships, their artistic collaborations struck a nerve with the fans. It's kind of like how solo albums by the former Beatles are never as good as actual Beatles albums. Jack, Steve, and Stan on their own may have their good points, but as a team, they were at the top of their game for the time.
>>153428213Darkseid is
>>153428213I'd argue that Darkseid is fairly notable, if only because he's a good example of 'the biggest, baddest villain in the universe' without being cringy about it, like, say, Knull.But yeah, no one gives a shit about C-Lister The Question or Stripperella.
>>153428292>no one gives a shit about C-Lister The QuestionHey, I do. Though not necessarily Ditko's version.
>>153418831Still better than that fraud Bob Kane.
>>153418831characters are always yelling in those old funny books.
>>153428056Need to shut up is a flaw for a lot of comics writers. Not even just superhero characters, EC comics can't shut the fuck up either.>>153428213Darkseid definitely is though. The Question is a relatively well known character in his own right as well. And even if they aren't as famous both Kirby and Ditko have great critical and artistic acclaim for their individual work that has only grown over the years. Jack in particular was very successful long before he collaborated with Stan.
>>153428056He wanted that extra paycheck for writing. He barely wrote what was described. It was just him narrating already drawn pages half-assedly, slapping his name on it and cashing a paycheck.
>>153418831>Why do characters keep saying 'whistlin Dixie's?Soul, that's why.
>“Stan’s dialogue style of hero/villain wisecracking, undercut the conflict of hero, villain – but it worked with readers who just wanted to be entertained. I believe Stan loved writing those corny captions. It added to reading appeal but undercut a more serious growth of a teenager in an heroic role.”>— Steve Ditko, July 2016 letter to David Currie, Ditko Shrugged, David Currie, 2020 p 74https://comicbookhistorians.com/the-ditko-version-exploring-steve-ditkos-recollections-of-marvel-in-the-1960s-by-rosco-m-copyright-rosco-m-2023/
>>153429004Personally, I agree with it adding to the appeal and entertainment value. I love Stan's style and don't think the comics would've been nearly as successful without it.
>>153422739>Funny he couldn't sell anything before Kirby and DitkoAnd they did super great on their own. I mean New Gods lasted a whole 11 issues!
>>153429041New Gods was cancelled too soon by editors who didn't get it, it's still highly acclaimed, influential, and reprinted many times. When Jenette Kahn came in she immediately wanted to bring it back because she knew it's failure was exaggerated. Does anyone remember Ravage 2099 or the Condor? Even Stan's Newspaper strip was ghost written
>>153429259I'm still working through the Fourth World. Superman's Pal is extremely dull.
>>153418831Oh come on, he can't be THAT bad...
>>153428941While this is true for the majority of releases after 1965, It isn't true for the entirety of "the Marvel Age".In the early days, Lee did more than just tell Kirby "the FF fights Dr. Doom for twenty pages". Lee and Kirby discussed the plot. Lee and Ditko discussed the plot. John Romita relates that he used to take notes so he's remember the discussion. Gene Colan would bring a tape recorder to record the plot points Lee wanted. Stan Lee contributed story points that the artist would then turn into a paced graphic form.Later on, he began conceding story control to Kirby and Ditko. But he still plotted heavily with Romita, Colan and Dick Ayers.The thing that's probably harmed Lee's reputation the most is the book "Origins of Marvel Comics", where he basically takes the lion's share of credit for Marvel. But is it any worse than Kirby later on claiming he created everything, ignoring Stan and Steve Ditko's contributions?
