>>153429558
Herb did nothing wrong

>>153429558
>Okay. I accept that. Do you ever wanna see me again, or should I leave you be?

Bojack could have salvaged it if he said that. But then, he wouldn't be Bojack if he didn't take the selfish, cowardly way out.

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>>153429645

>>153429558
>Okay. Normal words.
>Herb, I'm a horse guy.
>Yeah, and you use normal words.

>>153429645
If he wasn’t Bojack he wouldn’t have even been in the situation to start. He would have probably just left with Herb. Who know he might have even been able to get the execs to bring him back on, or maybe they would have done there own thing. Or maybe he wouldn’t have even gone to LA and met him in the first place.

>>153429558
makes sense. Youre not required by law to forgive someone. if your rapist said he was sorry, you wouldnt drop the charges

>>153429645
There’s a million ways he could have, but Herb was right in that he was there primarily there to assuage his own guilt instead of being there for Herb’s sake, so he’d always make it about himself at the end of the day.

>>153429558
you dont have to forgive no one
sorry

part of being an adult is learning to except you can't be forgiven
maybe don't be a piece of shit? all functional ADULTS know better

>>153430300
He does learn later that his boss literally wanted the minimum amount of push back from him so she could go "Aw nuts, sorry execs can't fire him or the star of the show leaves too, guess you'll just have to suck it up" and then couldn't because Bojack folded INSTANTLY.

And even then, like Herb says, it's not even so much about him not standing up for him as it's the fact he radically cut him out of his life entirely. So he went the extra mile on turning on his friend.

>>153429558
How does that work, not forgiving somebody? Can you still go on to be friends, or does the inability to forgive them block that?

Ok then, I take back my sorry. How about that?

>>153429558
Bad show and it only ages worse as the years go by.

>>153431678
Congrats for proving you weren't being sincere and this was just about making yourself look good?

>>153431688
Nuh uh. I was being sincere but if you’re gonna be a dick about it, maybe you don’t deserve an apology. So I’m taking it back.

>>153429558
Llamas With Hats epilogue

>>153431550
>He does learn later that his boss literally wanted the minimum amount of push back from him so she could go "Aw nuts, sorry execs can't fire him or the star of the show leaves too, guess you'll just have to suck it up" and then couldn't because Bojack folded INSTANTLY.
She gave a speech telling him his career would be dead unless he agreed to stay on the show.

>>153431891
Because that's what said execs ordered her to say, but it was a bluff and she was hoping he'd offer the minimum amount of pushback so she could go back and say "welp, didn't work, deal with it, we're not firing both or the show is over".

I smother him with a pillow, making it look like he died from his cancer, and then I tell everyone he forgave me.

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Why didn't the other characters just rape Bojack?

>>153431875
Normal words but a llama guy

>>153429618
He was spiteful.

>>153431325
>all functional ADULTS know better
Now if only most adults were functunal

>>153431550
The retcons designed to force viewers to reevaluate Bojack because he was too well liked were so stupid. They didn't even make a lot of sense. Calling in Sarah Lynn's death late would look WORSE and probably make him a suspect, it doesn't make sense as covering his ass. And the retcon with the boss doesn't work as an additional moral failing on Bojack's part if he simply believed she meant business and thought he was replaceable.
Both situations were perfectly valid instances of Bojack fucking over his friends even without them fudging the details after the fact. Bojack shouldn't have encouraged his friend to OD, regardless of how he handled things the moment of her death. Bojack shouldn't have abandoned Herb out of shame following his decision to put his career first, only to show up right before he died, not to apologize, but to feel forgiven.

>>153430880
Not unless he was hot and I was female.

>>153432103
Was there beef even public

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>>153429618
Or, rather, BoJack did EVERYTHING wrong.

>>153431550
>friend
Herb was gay and wanted to fuck Bojak. Their relationship dynamic was entirely one sided. If Bojak had remained in touch with Herb, then Herb would be pissed at the horse man’s rejection of his advances. Bojak only started to regret cutting off Herb because of the loneliness at the current stage of his life, but it doesn’t change the fact that Herb wasn’t interested in a “friend”. Bojak really didn’t do anything wrong in this scenario, even if he could’ve handled things better.

>>153429618
fpbp

>>153429558
If Herb lived, would he have later accepted the apology?

If Herb missed Bojack so much why didn't he just call him?
Why wait for Bojack?

>>153434931
Initially, probably hurt that Bojack did what he did, and afterwards, the fact that Bojack hadn't called first for that long even though he was the one with reason to be upset.

>>153434654
This. Herb was a jerk in his own way. And he died like an idiot saying he's immortal on twitter just before a car accident.

>>153432182
Correct, and there's nothing wrong with that when someone genuinely wronged you and is clearly only apologizing to make themselves feel better.

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WHEN

IS

SEASON

TWOOOOOO

>>153432243
Disagree
Bojack waiting to call cops makes sense because he was taking drugs as well and the guilt probably prevented him from acting quicker
Bojack, from what i remember, didn’t even try to advocate for Herb in any way. He didn’t even ask for time so he could talk with Herb about it. And for what? To keep working on a show created BY Herb. He wanted to leech off Herb’s hard work, sorta like what he shit on Todd for.
These were believeable retcons because Bojack from beginning to end, prioritized himself

>>153438049
This fall probably

>>153431560
It happened with Todd, though ne may have had no choice but to stay friends since he's a useless slacker idiot who'd be homeless without Bojack

>>153434857
I think, judging from his personality in the flashbacks, if his cancer had truly gone away and he had a new shot at life, he might've forgiven Bojack. He seemed like he was a nice guy and likely would've had a different outlook on the finality of relationships if he weren't at death's door.

>>153432165
He likely wouldn't care. He'd just sigh and pull his pants down, bending over for the next one in line

>>153434857
Probably not, but probably would’ve reached.
>Look, he really ratfucked me when I needed him, but I still love him like you wouldn’t believe and he’s good company. I dunno. It is what it is, sometimes!
And Bojack and him could’ve been friends again.

>having to live with your consequences
Gaaaaaayyyyy

>>153431901
If her intent was to say "Aw nuts, sorry execs can't fire him or the star of the show leaves too, guess you'll just have to suck it up" then she literally did not need Bojack's input to do that. She could have just done it.

It's almost like it was a shitty retcon that didn't make sense and only happened because the showrunners were angry that people liked Bojack.

>>153429645
>Do you ever wanna see me again
Herb was (as far as either of them knew) on his deathbed, and BoJack was only passing through town. Neither of them were going to make plans to try to see each other again. They knew through the whole visit this was the last time they’d be seeing each other.

But to your main point, yes. BoJack still could have salvaged things. He could have done it a lot of ways, and maybe he could have walked away with a “but hey it was nice seeing you today. Thanks for stopping by” instead of a fuck you.

>>153431901
>she was hoping he'd offer the minimum amount of pushback
She wasn't HOPING for the pushback because she'd lose money that way. The entire reason she was talking him out of walking out was Herb's sexuality risking marketing and popularity of the show. She was telling him in hindsight he could have because it was a bluff and he didn't know that at the time. She only confessed that to Bojack decades later because she was elderly and had nothing to lose.

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>>153438049
I don't like this show because it makes me feel old and unaccomplished...

>>153431550
>even then, like Herb says, it's not even so much about him not standing up for him as it's the fact he radically cut him out of his life entirely.
This is one of the most believable fuck ups Bojack has, as much as I agree with the other anon about the retcons being generally unnecessary.
>fuck over friend because you're a coward
>so overcome with guilt and cope that you find every excuse in the book to avoid them for years
>find out once it's too late that even despite your massive betrayal / fuck-up that the relationship could have been savaged if you had the balls to just talk it over and try to make amends
This shit happens all the time. People seem to really misunderstand their own guilt, either losing no sleep at all over really heinous behavior or always finding a way to feel like their bad choices and mistakes are world-destroying.
More often than not one betrayal, even a really awful one, isn't enough to undo years and years of friendship.

>>153430267
Its funny because Brian and Stewie use the same shtick
Seems like sour grapes too me.

>>153432103
yo thats kinda F'd up

>>153429618
Dating Charlotte was kind of a dick move.

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>>153429558
post yfw
>oh you think you've suffered the worst of all bojack? and not someone like, i don't know, sarah lynn?

>>153429558
this scene perfectly encapsulates why virtue signalling and cancelling is useless liberal idpol bullshit. vampire castle tripe.

-it doesn't matter how hard you try, they can reject your apology
-doesn't matter whether you mean it, it could be "worded wrong"
-it doesn't matter if you're sincere, you're unforgivable
-it doesn't matter if you make a mistake, once you apologize you have to be perfect from there on out or you're twice as bad

-doesn't matter if you were the one wrong, you can't know if they mean it

it's a bullshit witch trial if the apologizer actually means it and the former victim is petty

>>153439204
>retcons in which bojack never does anything moral is believable
no the fuck it isn't. this is why people think the writers never had the intention of the show being about "forgiveness" or "being better". it's literally just trauma porn that blames a male protagonist for fucking everything

VERY few people in real life are like this and the ones that are, are much less intelligent than bojack.

>>153445945
*wronged

>>153430930
>assuage his own guilt
so... he felt ashamed?

what the fuck does it mean to feel guilty if it isn't the exact fucking response the person who was wronged would expect the transgressor to feel? how the fuck is this an argument?

>make it about himself
what the fuck does this even mean. shame is a personal emotion, how the fuck else would it manifest? your kind of talk is exactly like people who are getting off on being the one to not forgive

>>153431325
>you don't have to forgive
>apologizes

fucking what? do you want me to not forgive you for being a contradictory asshole?

>>153445980
Modern morality is focused on restitution towards the victim in all circumstances.
If you hurt someone as the aggressor your feelings are secondary to the wellbeing of the person you hurt.
If Bojack actually wanted to provide restitution he would of done it years earlier, but instead he only did to to try and assuage his own feelings over it.
Penance through works is Holy
Self Soothing is Cowardace.
And Bojack was to late to repent in the face of the wronged party properly and so has to live with it.

>>153446104
>if you hurt someone as the aggressor your feelings are secondary

it goes way beyond that in modern times and especially dealing with women. it doesn't even matter what you did, you're expected to prostrate yourself at whatever irrational emotional someone else is not taking responsibility for

>assuage his own feelings over it
this right here makes no fucking sense. you can't truly be sorry unless you actually fucking feel sorry. "assuage his own feelings" is some extra bullshit way to say he felt bad, as in he felt sorry. the fuck do you even mean?

>self soothing is cowardice
no one self soothes unless they feel bad about something or have anxiety about something in the first place. you haven't made a point there.

>too late
that makes sense. except the real thing that would prove if bojack didn't care is if he didn't show up to apologize at all

which is worse, giving zero fucks about other people or having shame in the first place to actually feel bad? seems like you're one of the writers still trying to get everyone to hate the main character and forcefeed the audience a protagonist that is irredeemable

>>153446181
The assuaging concept is the difference between feeling bad about something and wanting to make it up to the wronged party and feeling bad about something and wanting to stop feeling bad about it.
Again its prioritizing how you feel over the feelings of the harmed party, and while you need those emotions of guilt to engage properly with the restitution process you need to treat them as secondary to the proceedings once your in.
Bojack only went there because the guilt over screwing Herb over was still in him years later and apologizing would be the last chance to have Herb release him from that guilt.
If he cared about Herb's wellbeing he could of shown up at any time years earlier, but instead he only showed up because as the show states without any retcons Bojack just (keyword Just)wanted to make himself feel better.
And while removing that guilt from Bojack was something in Herb's power to do, he had no moral or cultural obligation to do so because again Bojack was only doing it for himself.

Or to step away from the show and get a bit more abstract, its kinda like the difference between doing good things because they are what you understand a good person to do with your personal feelings coming secondary, and doing good things because you expect to be praised for doing so.

>>153429618
Ehhhhhhhh. Like he wasn't in the wrong at all, but the fact that he kept cutting Bojack off always rubbed me the wrong way.

Not in the sense that anything Bojack could say would earn Herb's forgiveness. If anything, it's the opposite: he was clearly going to say that he felt he already hurt Herb so much by not siding with him that they were already done, to which Herb could easily say he was a coward that wouldn't face the music, and it's especially worse given that there was no music to actually face. It might've humanized Bojack more, sure, but at the same time, it'd damn him to the fullest extent.

The fact that he didn't take that opportunity, I dunno. It says something at least, and it just kinda smells like it goes juuuuuuuuuust a step outside of his right to just deny Bojack forgiveness.

>>153431550
Nothing after like, Season 3 or mmmmmmmmmmaybe Season 4 is canon. Like that was around the time they stated they were intentionally changing the goals and story of the show in order to lecture the audience about how they shouldn't use Bojack potentially getting better as an excuse for their own shitty behavior, along with directly rebuking Weinstein-type figures in Hollywood culture.

Like after that started being a thing, it's impossible to view the show as being honest and organic anymore in its storytelling.

>>153439204
>These were believeable retcons because Bojack from beginning to end, prioritized himself
God I fucking HATE this sentiment so much
Some of the best moments in the show are those moments where Bojack actually shows he's learning. Something like Fish Out of Water is a genuine 10/10, and is centered around Bojack's actual streak of selflessness and regret. That he genuinely wanted to avoid another situation like Herb, was more proactive in it, and yet sacrificed that opportunity to get a kid back home.

And it's way more interesting when he then fucks up, and his twisted sense of trying to improve actually backfires and ends up hurting more people, as his feelings of earnestly trying to make things up with Kelsey leads him to being so cruel to Princess Carolyn. That's such a richer level of tragedy and disappointment than just "oh Bojack was doing it performatively because he only really cares about himself, he just wanted the absolution he didn't get from Herb."

It's just all the worse when like, you can't even go "you had good intentions" because he directly uses it to fuel being intentionally cruel. That's so much better to watch than just "oh he was just empty the whole time."

>I demand another person acts in my interest and forgives me
>I demand another person acts in my interest and isn't a dick to me
Both are equally gay spooked retards, it's all just frustration born from the unrealistic expectation that people will do anything other than act in their own best interest and pretending conflicts of interest don't exist. I do what makes me feel good, you do what makes you feel good. If making myself feel good involves making you feel bad, tough luck. If you making yourself feel good involves making me feel bad, no hard feelings, I'd do the same. One of us will have to win this conflict and both of us will do everything in our power for that person to be us, may the better man win.

If Bojack wanted to be a dick, that's fine. If Herb didn't want to forgive, that's also fine. Bojack pressing for it because he really wants forgiveness was also fine, Herb refusing anyways was fine too.

>>153429645
>expecting a puppet to defy its assigned role

>>153447499
It's a moot point because there's no point in judging puppets like you would judge people in real life. Puppets cannot do anything except what they are made to do, they cannot be held responsible for their actions, and the consequences of their actions don't matter because they're puppets in a fake world that exists solely to be a stage for them to dance on.

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>>153447499
>well, one of us is inevitably going to be a dick to the other so let's have our fun while we can then just get it over with
Let me guess, shit father and/or mother growing up?

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>>153447867
>>153447904
>t.

>>153430300
>>153430930
Telling your friend to throw away his entire career for your sake is a really shitty thing to do in the first place.

>>153431550
This was bad writing.

>>153448018
Both for bojack
Herb is just a faggot

The series should have ended with Bojack killing himself.

>>153429645
>Okay. All I wanted was to apologise. Phew. That's weight off my shoulders. See you around.

>>153446181
NTA but there are plenty of cases where people just want an easy "I forgive you" to ease their guilt instead of actually doing anything that requires effort/hard decisions to earn it which is exactly what Bojack was doing.

>>153448039
I'm not saying this applies to real life. Fictional characters literally are puppets made to serve specific roles, to dance on their strings and blurt out their lines. They literally cannot be anything or do anything except what the writer wants them to be and do. They have zero agency whatsoever, and at best they merely project the illusion of agency. Even a self-aware character like Deadpool still cannot escape the puppet strings, they're just a puppet who can see the strings, and only because the writer allows them to do so. Am I really wrong?