Get off of 4chan, Long Gone.

and then a few short months later Azula goes full schizo retard and tells them to all go away, even though they saved her ass during the eclipse

Avatar has shitty writing but people pretend it doesnt

>>153482119
But that's not what she's saying? SHe's saying they haven't decided who to side with because its unclear which of them will win. But she has decided that she will win

>>153482314
Nice cope

>>153482119
>children in a children's show are unrealistically competent, intelligent, and respected
wow

>>153482314
It's because of nostalgia + low standards for modern western cartoons. ATLA is like a 7/10 as a shounen anime but is treated like a 10/10, then Korra is conversely over hated because people viewed the original with such rose tinted glasses. Don't get me wrong Korra is still worse at a 6, but people are so outraged at the downgrade because they treat it like going from a 10 to a 6 rather than a 7 to a 6.

>>153482370
Saul is a teen born in a royal family and shaped to be the perfect soldier.

>>153482390
Shit, I meant Azula

>>153482348
Yeah, this is common as hell in martial arts movies.

>>153482119
honestly yeah, never liked how she got the Dai Li at her side with the fear factor only, would had made more sense if she offers them more than just being Long Feng watchdogs, after all she did took some as a personal guard back to the Fire Nation. Or defeating Long Feng in front of them to finally convice them to change sides, They just made Long Feng to look weak at last moment to enhance Azula image.

>>153482348
You're right. But that doesn't really explain why their loyalty shifted so hard that they would even wait to see who would win in the first place when it was clear before they were on Long Feng's side up until then.

>>153482479
Because they weren't actually on his side you dumbass, they were on their own side the entire time and Long Feng was never smart enough to understand that.

>>153482519
>The Council of Five and the military are loyal to the Earth King, but the Dai Li remains loyal to you, Long Feng, sir.

>>153482119
>opportunistic cowards are opportunistic cowards
Seems pretty realistic

>>153482564
Yeah anon they were lying, they are loyal to no one but themselves.

Azula was a huge villain sue. She was always two steps ahead, even when it made no sense.

>>153482119
Little Freudian slip there.

>>153482377
go back to /a/ then

>>153482705
Most opportunists aren't full blown traitors much less an entire organization of elites. They'd still rather their petty kingdom where they remain on top than submitting fully to a foreign power. If not, they could have just negotiated with Fire Nation enoys behind closed doors from the start then open the gates. The Dai Li folding so quickly to Azula like they were just a full formation of Vlasovites was lazy writing.

>>153482756
What doesn't make sense?
>Long Feng used a weak earth king to secure a position of power within the city
>focusing on maintaining that power lead to ally with an outside enemy with the assumption he was always gonna be valuable
>that mistaken assumption meets reality when the outside enemy rightly only sees Long Feng as a pawn and not a partner
>after undermining the very city he was sworn to protect Long Feng no longer has any leverage over the fire nation

>>153482799
>Most opportunists aren't full blown traitors much less an entire organization of elites.
And we're basing this assumption on what?

>>153482119
I’m pretty sure she was referring to bending rather than royal blood.
>Yeah you’re a schemer, but I can just personally burn you to a crisp right here right now. And I have all the more reason since you decided you were going to reveal your hand by just walking up to me and spitting it out loud.

>>153482119
Maybe the Dali were already on the verge of launching a coup to get rid of long feng and all Azula did was bribe them, this scene is just her victory lap. The Dali strike me as not a particularly loyal bunch and I wouldn't be surprised if the Pretorian guard/janissaries were a inspiration.

>>153482845
>If not, they could have just negotiated with Fire Nation enoys behind closed doors from the start then open the gates.
If they were traitors they would have acted like it. Why were they even enroll into their nation's security forces at all?

>>153482921
>If they were traitors they would have acted like it.
You mean like betraying the city they were protecting by acting as Long Feng's private security force?

>>153482119
>I was porn with it
So, was your step brother able to get you unstuck?

>>153482921
>>153482965
I cannot believe that the secret police acted secretive.

>>153482119
Azula gave free blowjobs to every dai li soldier to win their loyalty.

>>153482965
That's treachery to the monarchy not their nation. They were still atop of their nation rather than subordinate to foreigners in that arrangement.
>>153482994
Then as such secretive traitors why weren't they just negotiating with the fire nation behind closed doors from the start? Sorry that I don't find a teenage girl's speech being the thing that makes them cross the line into full blown treachery to be believable.

>>153483034
>That's treachery to the monarchy not their nation.
It's the same thing bro.

>>153482119
She's a walking WMD in the feudal era. What can they do about it?

>>153483034
>They were still atop of their nation rather than subordinate to foreigners in that arrangement.
I wanna emphasize this actually because it makes their treachery even more unbelievable. Typically people/organizations that go turn coat are ones that lose power struggles, like Wang Jingwei to Chiang Kai-shek (another opportunist, yet he never bowed to Japan). Why would the Dai Li willingly submit to foreigners when they just pulled a successful coup and were now the very top of their society?

>>153482119
It's been forever since I've watched this show. But I remember not liking that he didn't at least try and fight her before surrendering.

>>153483086
>Typically people/organizations that go turn coat are ones that lose power struggles
You mean like with the Dai Li?

>>153483080
It's not, you're just coping now. No coup plotters view themselves as national traitors.

>>153482377
>Korra is conversely over hated
It is impossible to over hate Korra

>>153483022
They only followed her because her blowjobs were better than Long Feng's, and she didn't have a mustache that tickled their thighs.

>>153482885
Long Feng is a bender too

>>153483105
The Dai Li won their power struggle, they had just performed a successful coup of the military and released Long Feng from prison. Now they're suddenly tearing down the gates for the foreigners? Why is it so hard for you to accept that the writing was lazy?

>>153483133
>The Dai Li won their power struggle
No they didn't you pretentious faux intellectual, the Dai Li lost whatever power struggle that made them more focused on being the spy ring for the upper circle.

>>153483086
They should have just had the Dai Li's coup fail then the second in command gets approached by Azula when they're put on the chopping block if they wanted believable treachery.

>>153482377
>Korra
>at 6 at worse
Maybe if you were talking only about season 1. But the show dips to and around where I'd place a 4/10 show at it's worse moments in subsequent seasons. Conservatively I'd say Korra is a 5/10 and AtLA is closer to an 8.5/10 and rounding down if fractions aren't acceptable.

>>153483155
You're a fucking retard, they were founded as an intelligence organization and had literally just couped the state right before bowing to Azula.

>>153483133
You actually haven't been able to explain how the writing is lazy as the central core of your argument is that the Dai Li wouldn't betray Long Feng because they're loyal...but the assumption has already proven to be wrong.

>>153483189
Yeah anon that's who they did the coup for.
Where are you getting confused here?

"Remain" loyal seemed like a huge red flag to me, almost as if the Dai Li's loyalty was the smoking gun..

>>153483218
>as the central core of your argument is that the Dai Li wouldn't betray Long Feng because they're loyal
You're such a dishonest retard, I literally just explained the power dynamics that even if they were only loyal to themselves makes it no sense for them to open the gates and submit to foreigners just organized a successful coup to themselves at the top of their nation. Even if they didn't give a damn about Long Feng why would they submit to foreigners when they were at the top of their nation now? ATLAfags really can't accept any flaws in their show lmao.

>>153483229
They did the coup for themselves, to put the Dai Li at the top. Now they're suddenly opening the gates to foreigners. I guess you're arguing they were actually loyal to Azula now because uhhh reasons?

>>153483294
>>153483318
They did a coup for a power and then did another coup for even more power.
What's not to get?

>>153483350
The coup against the government increased their power to the very top, they were in charge of the Earth Kingdom as absolute sovereigns. Submitting to Azula right then and there is not another coup, it's surrendering to a foreign nation and accepting Ozai as their highest authority. Again, why even among opportunists the oes that lose power struggles like Wang Jingwei turn coat to foreigners while Chiang Kai-shek refused to bow from the top.

>>153482119
Long Feng opened the door by turning to Azula in the first place. The Dai Li saw their already humiliated leader hand over the reins to a teen girl and she proceeded to walk the walk and talk the talk just as effectively as he ever did. Then, once she and the Dai Li had done all the actual work of overthrowing the government, he waltzes in and just expects everyone to kneel to him. He completely played himself. The fact that they hesitated to see if Long Feng would put up a fight was more respect than he'd earned at that point.
And if you take a step back, throwing in with the Fire Nation was the only path forward for the Dai Li once they'd agreed to the coup. They'd thrown the military into disarray by arresting all the generals. The Fire Nation army wasn't going to sit back and give them a minute while they got their ducks in a row after the coup. There was no going back, so you might as well go all in and secure yourselves the best standing you can get with the Fire Nation.

>>153482729
why?

>>153483350
That anon is right. There's no incentive to joining with Azula compared to using her as a political prisoner against the Fire Nation. Even if they thought Long Feng was a weaker leader, why not promote one of their own to his position and depose him instead of letting a 14yo girl take the reigns?

>>153483403
>The coup against the government increased their power to the very top
Their power didn't increase, Long Feng's did.
Get rid of Long Feng and then, and only then, would the Dai Li would have cemented their power.

>>153482119
Long could impale Azula with an earth spike in this scene btw. Avatars writing is so stupid, Earthbenders could just make you sink into the ground and smash your jaw as you suddenly drop. Instant death

>>153483531
Because they're a secret police that held themselves above the law.
They already don't believe in the thing they're supposed to represent.

>>153483536
>There's no incentive to joining with Azula compared to using her as a political prisoner against the Fire Nation.
You have that completely backwards, by the time Long Feng has launches his coup the city was already done for.

>>153483536
I would assume the Dai Li had abandoned the notion of opposing the Fire Nation at that point. The Dai Li had burned every bridge within the Earth Kingdom and Azula would be the first one to warn them that her father wouldn't give a shit about hostages.

>>153482826
Her suddenly being miles away from Ba Sing Se in Appa's Lost Days and RIGHT where Suki and Appa were honestly pissed me off. That was the moment where her omnipresence just become excessive

>>153483653
She'd been following Appa's fur trail and the Kyoshi Warriors spent basically a whole day cleaning him, giving her time to catch up

>>153483652
I mean how long have the dai li have heard about the fire nation encroachment? Their biggest job by the time we see them is dealing with the refugee crisis where everyone from every part of the earth kingdon is running away from the fire nation army.

The real question is why the Dai Li still exist in the legend of Korra?
I mean is logical to think that after that kind of treason an organization with such questionable loyalty like the Dai Li would be dissolved and become ilegal to be part of such treasonous group.

>>153483536
>There's no incentive to joining with Azula compared to using her as a political prisoner against the Fire Nation.

The same Fire Nation that has already proven that they would have breached the walls of Ba Sing Se with their earthbending-proof drilling machine if not for the timely intervention of the Avatar? I really don't think you understand the situation, Anon.

The Impenetrable City had been penetrated. The only winning move was to throw their lot in with Azula and be looked upon favorably when the Fire Nation takes over.

>>153483701
because Kyoshi created them. Aang asked the white lotus to protect korra and they raised her into a drooling retard who didn’t know how money worked, people put the words of the avatar on a pedestal

>>153483701
The Earth Queen brought it back because she wanted a personal force of spooks.

>>153483568
Long Feng is just the head of the Dai Li. The Dai Li were at the top of the nation. There was no reason for the not turn coat as an organization, if they didn't want Long Feng to be the head anymore then they simply wouldn't have released him from prison and picked another representative amongst themselves. However bowing to Azula and by proxy another sovereign is not increasing their power.

>>153483607
If they were loyal to no one but themselves why did they bow to the Fire Nation? They were at the height of their power internally then just submit to another power for seemingly no reason.

>>153483689
It's the Dai Li. A big chunk of their job is intercepting any information about the war coming into the city and they spy on government and the military officials all the time. They know how the war is going.

>>153482377
Agree with the first part. ATLA definitely is a 7 +1/- 1 out of 10 depending on how high your standards are, but claiming Korra was just a minor step down is not doing the show justice. It's a 4/10. It shat over the themes of its predecessor, the plot was a complete mess (owed to the fact that it doesn't follow one large, coherent narrative, but even viewing Season 1 and on their own you realise that the writers had no clue how to conclude any of their plotlines and character arcs), the Protagonist embodied the worst aspects of a girlboss and a girlfailure simultaniously (not saying she is a Mary Sue, but nonetheless terribly written), bending choreography got streamlined into generic ,,throw thing at opponent", the political themes contradict the worldbuilding and plot and as already mentioned the show wastes the audience's time with unneccessary side-stories.
Korra is a terrible cartoon, its only achievements are on the technical side of things which admittedly, do even surpass ATLA.

>>153483815
If they turned against Azula, they'd be destroyed if(when) the Fire Nation won the war. And they were beyond the point of running to the avatar for help actually winning the war. Allying with the Fire Nation was the safest choice.

>>153483644
>>153483652
>>153483731
If this was their reasoning it just doesn't make sense why they just submitted to Azula there instead of just engaging in backroom talks with the Fire Nation behind the king's back before to maximize their gains as an organization. But unconditionally surrendering to a foreigner at the height of their organizational power makes no sense and was just writing to aurua farm for Azula.

>>153483843
Honestly I just said it was a 6 because I've only seen the first season and a 6 was meh enough for me to not want to watch the rest but understand why everyone says it was a downgrade to the original, so I'm gonna assume you and >>153483169 are correct.

>>153483946
I guess in a vacuum Season 1 is good enough on its own for a 6/10.

>>153483894
Allying with Azula directly would put them in a far better position than any backroom deals. What kind of deals would they make anyway? Azula of all people wasn't going to hash out some compromise. That's why she got rid of Long Feng. So if they didn't submit to her then and there, they'd have to take her hostage (Ozai would laugh in their faces and kill them all) or boot her out (and Azula would no doubt suggest eradicating them for obvious reasons). Neither option is better for them than just playing her game.

>>153482845
Plenty of historical examples if we wanna go down that route. Personally I don't like comparing fictional worldbuilding and characters to real ones as the latter often harms the integrity of the former, but I digress. Most collaborators, especially those who collaborated with the Nazis or any other Axis power like the Italians or Japanese fits the mold.

>>153483999
Unconditionally surrending to someone is never gonna get you more than negotiations. Even if they were gonna lose, they held enormous leverage by ruling over an area as large as Ba Sing Se which would have had an ungodly cost in manpower and equipment if they had to fight for it rather than being welcomed in by the Dai Li.

>>153483652
>and Azula would be the first one to warn them that her father wouldn't give a shit about hostages.
It probably would have been good to have such a scene where she at least confirms this before or during the last standoff between her and Long Feng. Much like I would have preferred for Long Feng to actually fight Azula when she just got done trashing him instead of just kneeling.

>>153483731
I just don't get why they would bother letting him out of prison if they were hesitant to see whether to join hands with Azula then. Because by Azula's own words. The Dai Li still expected Fong to take over which contradicts the idea that they had already committed to betraying the Earth Kingdom wholesale.
Otherwise why take him out of his cell?

I could re-watching some episodes and hope it makes it clearer. But it seems like the scene from the OP was written in such a way so that the writers can have their cake and eat it too. Azula gets to be in charge and condescending, but a guy who could reasonably press her in a fight or at least put one up just cowtows after being told he was a peasant? The same guy who was already planning to double cross her and spent years building up his position of power? And he announces his intention to take the throne and his people won't back him up?

Seems like cheap writing. Either don't have Azula mention the agents are waiting to see which leader to follow or have Fong try and fight back before she reminds him that the city has already fallen once and will fall again and she's the better option for the throne.

>>153483999
As for an example of the types of deals they could have made, they could have used their leverage to demand varying degrees of autonomy while leaving themselves in charge for example. Let in a limited amount of Fire Nation overseers, but not tear down the gates for a full occupation, so that the Fire Nation is still reliant on them to govern the area and they remain the top dogs at home like they'd want to. Essentially vassalizing themselves, with domestic control but foreign policy and trade overseen by the Fire Nation. It would have been an interesting direction, but then it doesn't set up Ozai wanting to genocide the the occupied guerillas during Sozin's comet.

>>153484216
>Plenty of historical examples if we wanna go down that route.
Probably a lot more historical counterexamples too.

>>153483815
You must think roman emperors had all the power and not the force that put them there and would kill them for a rise given by the next emperor they put in place

read history stupid child

>>153482119
Yeah that was stupid and honestly there was an easy way to fix it. Have Azula study the Dai Li have them also do a trial of strength for who rules and she challenges them and in one on one she beats them all and works her way up and gains respect. Then have him bow scared of her. Still wouldn’t be the best solution but infinitely better than this crap. Truthfully it would’ve been better if the firenation just did an all out attack with the Air Force they built. Wouldve made sense and honestly earth bender not being able to deal with air strikes Wouldve mirrored the Nazi’s terror in England in WW2. I’m guessing that probably would’ve been too dark for a kids show though.

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>>153482119
>was porn with it
Plenty of fan art to substantiate the claim.

>>153485067
And all that for what? The war was lost the second the wall fell. And the Dai Li knew.

>>153482314
>>153482377
>>153483843
then present your best examples into those statements.

>>153482478
>would had made more sense if she offers them more than just being Long Feng watchdogs
she gave them toptier fire pussy

>>153482119
Divine right to rule and poorly thought out aura moments superscedes logic and intelligent writing.

>>153482377
ATLA is a 4/10 for a shounen. Beyblade has more logic to its story then this shit.
God tier VA work and brilliant animation doesnt maje up for its retarsation.

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>>153486622
Gosh it's a real headscratcher over why the Dai Li would find Azula to be more charismatic than Long Feng
>we could follow this guy whose only real talent was navigating the earth king's court
Or
>we could follow this smoking hot teen with the killer body, dick sucking lips, pure sex for a voice, and is literally Royalty of the conquering nation

>>153486776
Or
They could just chain her up, give her the judy treatment, run a train on her for days, and send her back as a double agent.

>>153486810
See for some reason you keep assuming the Dai Li have the better hand but they objectively don't.

>>153485395
>And the Dai Li knew.
They clearly still had designs to run things, otherwise Azula wouldn't have mentioned the guys were waiting to see which person to follow.

>>153486934
They had designs to maintain their positions.

>>153486926
Lol
Okay. She was in the middke if enemy yerritory in the largest most well defended nation on their planet. And the fire nations only hope of beating them was a fucking drill.
That they could have sank under the desert and crushed.

Azula using her cunning and obvious feminie wiles to bribe Feng Long and the guards would have made more sense.
Rule this earth kingdom openly and become a vassal of the fire nation. Eliminating all fire nation attacjs and securing hus powerbase. Even helping him take over the other natiins from behind the scenes.

Nope.
MUH DIVINE RIGHT TO RULE
MUH MAGIC ROYAL BLUUD
That is shit surfs slaves and wimps thonk makes perfect sense.

>>153487072
But clearly with an earthbender at the helm and not bending the knee to Azula at the very least. The point is they were still willing to try it even after the Drill penetrated the wall, it was Long Feng giving up that had them fully swing to Azula's side.

>>153487080
>She was in the middke if enemy yerritory in the largest most well defended nation on their planet.
Which she conquered.

>>153487122
>But clearly with an earthbender at the helm and not bending the knee to Azula at the very least
No, you're ascribing a level of patriotism to the Dai Li that is just nonexistent to them.
The Dai Li do not operate on a creed and were already committed to betraying the earth kingdom from the fire nation as soon Long Feng allied himself with Azula.

>>153487453
>No, you're ascribing a level of patriotism to the Dai Li that is just nonexistent to them.
>"The fact is, they don't know which of us is going to be sitting on that throne, and which one is going to be bowing down[...]"
I'm not saying they were patriotic. I'm saying they were still willing to back up Long Feng even after the Drill.

>and were already committed to betraying the earth kingdom from the fire nation as soon Long Feng allied himself with Azula
Nothing about that exchange suggests Long Feng would have had to ally himself with Azula should he have taken the throne. If anything they would have followed his original order and arrested her if he got Azula to bend the knee.

>>153485395
Having the Princess of the fire kingdom as a hostage is pretty good leverage anon. Showcasing how horrible the fire lord could be to still Firebomb the city Wouldve been great, you could also have Azula gleefully laughing about it to show case how crazy she was.

>>153487453
Patriotism?
They hace been fighting a brutal untrustworthy genocidal nation/race of murderers for generations.
The nation is on high alert and ever aware of the threat they are under.
That you would ascribe their retiscence of trusting the fire nation as mere patriotism is foolish.

Them follwing the violent murderous princess of those people after an idiotic speech about her inherent royal superiority is fucking retarded.

>>153487688
>They have been fighting a brutal untrustworthy genocidal nation/race of murderers for generations.
No, not the Dai Li.

>>153488470
The secret police who also fight firebenders?
The people whi LIVE in the city under constant seige by the fire nation?

>>153488670
They don't live in constant siege with the fire nation, that's how the entire population of Ba Sing Sae could live in ignorance of the war.

>>153486683
>>153482377

I also don't see the point in considering the series 100% shonen or at least as an anime just because it's the visual style. aesthetic.

>modern western cartoon

Then show your best ones.

Wait, who are we talking about?

>>153482314
Many are saying this.

>>153484645
Elites tend to have more of a stake in the stability of their nation than commoners because their power is tied up in the status quo. They might have no loyalty and the option to turn or run, but “elite” status is dependent on externalities, so elites are always incentivized to protect their interests one way or the other.

>>153486590
I don't have an encylopedic memory for moments of bad writing in a show I haven't seen in close to a decade. But after all these years the most obvious example would be the Lion-turtle deus ex machina as bad writing. Absolves Aang of having to complete his character arc of doing his proper duty as the Avatar and killing Firelord Ozai. Finishing the path laid out when Roku failed to handle Sozin as he should have which led to the 100 years war.

Don't get me wrong. The show is still good overall but like any long running serialized work it's going to have problems. I think the nuance here is that saying Avatar has bad writing doesn't necessarily mean the same as saying Avatar is badly written.

The Fire Nation probably pays better.

>>153492594
>Elites tend to have more of a stake in the stability of their nation than commoners because their power is tied up in the status quo.
Unless those elites don't see it like that.

>>153482377
In isolation Korra isn't as bad. A lot the complaints come from how is messes with ATLA lore. Especially with how season 2 handled things. Like I wouldn't consider Korra getting gifted the avatar state any worse than say Aang hitting his back against a rock or the Lion Turtle showing up to teach him energy bending.

>>153492767
>Like I wouldn't consider Korra getting gifted the avatar state any worse than say Aang hitting his back against a rock
This one specifically I would have a problem with because at least we had the guru to justify pressure points as a means of stimulating energy within someone. Korra got stuff like airbending when she lost her bending which breaks the logic of the practice itself both in isolation and in context. I'd also just say that Korra had a villain problem where the big bads are pretty horribly written and executed because the MC herself isn't really equipped to refute their political claims which is a big part of Korra.

>>153489618
It is a shonen as in a series for kids/teenagers.

>>153492736
In a material sense. Of course people are people with various perspectives, but the risk calculation for whatever your status is tied up in changes dynamically with the political situation.