Why didn't (You) prevent it???
>>153498094Long distance phone callsAlso I never liked jason todd I was edgy enough to vote die
Because reasons.
>>153498094People had already seen stories where he lives a bunch of times and wanted something different
>>153498156holy kek
>>153498094Jason Todd was more valuable dead than alive. Still is.
>>153498173It sure was something
>>153498094I wasn't born in the faggot generation it was before my time
>>153498241It was the best generation right after disco and before rap
>>153498094tfw something like this can't be made today, simply because of mass botting and DDOS.
>>153498094was like 7 when it happened?..and they brought him back anyway so whatever?
Wasn't there a rumor that a guy had a computer call the number to kill him a bunch of times and it ended up being the decider?
>>153499255A hacker killed Jason Todd
>>153498094i dislike jason. next question
>>153498241Broccoli hair
I think that comic books should do gimmicks like this and the current villain sweepstakes more often.
>>153499255I think somebody at DC said that as a cope.
>>153499255This is why you add shit like ID or a phone number to a vote to reduce the chance of botting.Not that, that would stop them today.
>>153498094If they did it today over an internet poll that couldn't be hacked or botted, what would people choose?
>>153501230Well in this specific case, Jason would live because he is a lot more popular than he was back in the day. I think if they do something like this again it should be with the Joker.
>>153501338>I think if they do something like this again it should be with the Joker.that would be a hilarious shitstorm, they should do it
>>153498094In the Robin Lives version, Jason is in a coma instead of dead and the story continues on much the same. He was going to be written out of the story one way or another, not go back to being Robin, it was a shitty marketing campaign because Starlin wanted to write solo Batman stories (he hated the Robin concept, not Jason in particular). DC and Denny invented the narrative that fans hated Jason to cope with the massive amounts of letters from crying kids and angry moms. To this day Jason often talks in a rude or edgy way because of the myth he was the "bad" Robin.
>>153501338>they do a "should Batman kill Joker in the main comics forever" poll>99.9% unanimously vote yes and BTFO of the "if I kill you I'll become just as bad" copers >DC retaliates by having Batman still not kill him
>>153501486No, have it be a reverse of the original situation with Jason holding a in universe poll as well.
>>153500667It's weird that they don't considering that fans and creatives can more easily interact now than ever
>>153500667Like the letters it works when writers and editorial are on good terms with the readers, but as is most olive branches extended just turn out to be poison ivy.Don't tell me I'm making this up either, you heard what Brevoort has said, and in an interview after he was given his walking papers DiDio alluded that even if it's reserved for behind closed doors meeting there are staff in DC who were nodding their heads at the questionable renovations that would setup 5G, fan reception be damned.If a poll were done to find out so much as which minor background character was most well regarded, chances are someone's going to have them dragged out and put through the gauntlet, if not killed, on page 1 in a few issues.Why? Maybe disdain for others and lust for the power trip? Maybe because it would get attention and sales? Maybe it's Maybelline.Whatever the case it's best just not to play ball.
>>153498094Why should i feel bad about?>Elevates a incredibly mediocre written comic that Jim Starlin is clearly half assing>Actually, the writing is so dated that it is crazy to thing it was happening during the height of the british invasion >Gives Jason a actual purpose, a decent comeback saga and billions of fangirls despise still having zero decent solo comics
>>153503332Things sure have changed
>>153503648>Elevates a incredibly mediocre written comic that Jim Starlin is clearly half assingFollowed by giving us Ambassador Joker.
>>153498094Chasing after the Joker is what gives Batman's life meaning. To do away with that would be a grave mistake
>>153499255Denny O’Neil said that to get everyone off his back and direct heat because people were upset at him.
>>153503355>Tim Drake>believably contemporary kid and believable RobinIn other words, Jason was too poor, too urban for Denny’s tastes.
>>153505686jason is the black robin
>>153505870Always has been.
>>153498094Apparently less than 1000 people participated and it was overwhelmingly for the kill Robin option. Anyone who says they called in is lying.
>>153501062They did, which is how they could source a particular large, consecutive amount of calls to a law officeBut these were also paid calls, so it was also voting by the dollar on top of popularity. People with more money wanted Jason gone.
>>153505686Jason was Dick Tracy Junior in the 80s. A very idealized take on a poor kid, he wouldn’t be realistic until later depictions in the 90s that were far less idealized than Collin’s, who was trying to write a sort of urban fairy tale by his own admission. Jason is a Dickensian orphan with a heart of gold in a vaguely depression era tale on the 80s. His Robin was a golden age homage for most of his tenure. It was probably too nostalgic and high concept for the era.Tim was the latchkey suburban kid that was closer to the average young comic reader of the time. Funny enough, Dixon has said he liked Jason,probably would’ve done well writing him if he wrote his solo.
>>153507352Tim wasn't typical suburban though, Tim was a rich kid living in a literal mansion with his father and his housekeeper.
>>153507369Tim was rich enough for plot reasons but was still effectively close to a normal suburban kid. His dad was a fucking explorer archaeologist who wore a pilth helmet. The wealth they had and the extraordinary jobs his parents had was just to serve the story, to keep them low maintenance without entirely ditching his father.But he still had suburban teen kid interests and his friends were still suburban teens.
>>153507288Source: your crack dealer
>>153501338No anon you can't have Jason Todd kill the Joker
>>153507352Not sure what you're trying to say. Batman is a very idealized nepo baby, and his fans have no problem with that. Just like there's nothing realistic about Batman.>It was probably too nostalgic and high concept for the era.He was a trope that was around since late 70s American movies and way before that in classic European literature. Comics readers and writers were behind the times at that point and probably too upper middle or upper class.
>>153507352>Tim was the latchkey suburban kid that was closer to the average young comic reader of the time.Tim is an upper-class white kid who respected his authority figures, unironically read high art magazines, hates rap music but loves Enya to show that he was a good kid, unlike that street rat Jason.
Jason did nothing wrong, you know. Readers simply couldn't handle it.
>>153498094One of the things that has always annoyed me about DC is just how much they love to paint the readers as having blood on their hands for what happened in ADITF, even though Denny and his editors were doing everything in their power to get rid of Jason, and only BARELY got what they wanted despite everything, pretty much deconfirming the Jason was despised myth that DC created. And then they would do it again in Knightfall, when they would wheel out Azrael and say "THIS IS WHAT BATMAN WOULD BE LIKE IF HE KILLED YOU STUPID FAGGOTS" when JPV is nothing like Bruce Wayne because if they actually played it straight and had a not-Bruce Wayne who did kill, then they would have to address Bruce's ideology.
>>153510573You damn right we couldn't, he was rude and wimpy
>>153504570Yeah because some dumbass writer wrote that down in a comic. If they write that Batman can move on then he can move on. Dont fall victim to "the status quo is the only possible option" propaganda they use to justify never taking real risks
>>153509688No clue how you both didn't understand what I wrote and yet effectively reached the same conclusion.Batman is Batman, Readers will always have a hypocritical view of him because he's the star. >He was a trope that was around since late 70s American movies and way before that in classic European literatureYes anon, like I said, "Dickensian". You know, like Oliver Twist, he's the orphan with a heart of gold. Jason before Starlin is a street urchin who dislikes rs the street life and wants to be a GOOD kid, who fears growing up to be a criminal.And it's going way further back than riding the zeitgeist of 70's American movies.The Ma Gunn stuff is straight up Depression era gangster/Dick Tracy stuff, because Max Allan Collins, Post-Crisis' Jason's de facto creator, was the protege of the Dick Tracy creator Chester Gould. One you know this, what Jason was modeled after is more clear. He was largely a nostalgic influenced characterIt is indeed way higher concept than 80's comic readers were ready for. Like I said. >>153510515The Enya stuff was much, much later, by Johns. Tim before that at least was attempting to have a regular 90's skater kid's taste in music, even if it was still written by kind of out of touch older guys.
>>153511215>even if it was still written by kind of out of touch older guys.That's pretty much the reason why Tim is in such a terrible state these days, his origin was cooked up by out-of-touch old guys. Same thing happened to Kyle Rayner.
>>153507320based lawyer
Anyone else find it creepy how people are ok with murdering a literal CHILD? We don't talk enough about how accepted toxic voter murderism is in this community. I'm thinking about leaving
Didn't need to save him. He's fine isn't he? Busy having his own gay little adventures isn't he? So no problem.
>>153511807Reddit hates Jason Todd tho
>>153511698The old guys were in-touch enough to make a book that sold really well and kept Tim afloat for10 years. It's just that Willingham and John are somehow even more out of touch and uncool and in their attempts to make him cooler, completely lost the plot on what appeal Tim had.
>>153511215Because you mentioned realism, like that matters or was true, and I more or less skipped the rest. >Readers will always have a hypocritical view of himIf that were completely true, then DC and the fandom wouldn't be so embarrassed about his fortune to the point they pretend he does a lot through charity, or create an AU where he is a "blue collar."
>>153501436>(he hated the Robin concept, not Jason in particular)That is the correct thing to think.
>>153498094
>>153498094Only 10,000 even bothered calling. Apparently someone used an autodialler to keep killing Robin too.
>>153512456>That is the correct thing to think.It's really not, considering Robin was one of DC's best-selling comics of the 90s and proof that the character was popular.
>>153512372>Because you mentioned realism, like that matters or was true,Evidently it mattered enough at the time. You should try actually reading a post before replying. It can lead to a much better, deeper discussion. My main point that there's a big difference between the type of poor Max Allan Collins was writing, which is to say a very stylized, romanticized viewAnd that of which we'd get much later in the 90's and 2000's, written by writers like Beatty, Winnick, and others would later, where Jason faced much more realistic, gritty aspects of being a kid in poverty to a drug addicted mother in GothamKeep in mind I like Jason, both in the 80's and his later incarnations. And Tim as well. So I'm not biased against one of another. My main point is that fans tend to forget the context of these stories and view things with a broad brush. There's way more factors to why Jason would have agitated enough readers enough to vote him off(even if it was ballot stuffing) to reduce it to him being too poor and urban.If anything I think if Jason was written more like how people imagine his time as Robin to have been, he would've resonated more at the time.
>>153512649Well we confirmed that when Tim Drake became Robin and all he had to be was a good kid who wanted to help batman
>>153512638Sales don't make a concept good.
>>153512473>>153507288One thing I don't think people realize- readership for Batman in the 80's(DC in general) was VERY small, especially before the 89 movie. A lot of the readership left reading Batman at the time was older fans who had stuck around since the 70's or earlier, and Robin was phased out as a regular sidekick around '69. So when Jason came on the scene in '84, he was seen as an intrusion to the solo Batman readers had come to know. It basically did not matter what they did to tweak him, a lot of readers just saw Robin as a throwback they didn't want. Part of what made readers open to Tim is a bunch of NEW, younger readers coming in, which is why a generation around the same age he was in his debut are so partial to him.
>>153512649>My main point that there's a big difference between the type of poor Max Allan Collins was writing, which is to say a very stylized, romanticized viewNah, that shit was not romanticized at all. Jason's dad got shotgunned to death in the streets like a dog, and his mom died of drug abuse>And that of which we'd get much later in the 90's and 2000's, written by writers like Beatty, Winnick, and others, would later, where Jason faced much more realistic, gritty aspects of being a kid in poverty to a drug addicted mother in GothamNah, Winick is the guy who ruined Jason by ignoring so much of his background because he fell for the psyops that DC pushed. Even in 2025, he still saw him as the "Bad Robin" to Dick's Good Robin.
>>153512754Again, the sales say otherwise, especially golden age Batman.
>>153512783I was basically reading from Jason's introduction and death, to Tim's introduction It was all good until Robin's solo comics that were unforgivable bad
>>153512638>and proof that the character was popular.Robin was popular because it was a way for kids to self insert as going on epic adventures with Batman, not because of any writing quality.
>>153512881Kids don't self-insert as the kid sidekick, they self-insert as the hero.
>>153512783>Part of what made readers open to Tim is a bunch of NEW, younger readers coming in, which is why a generation around the same age he was in his debut are so partial to him.Tim succeeded because they actually put effort into his character and didn't intentionally sabotage him. It's not rocket science. And when the Batman '89 movie came out, Denny finally got what he wanted and created The Legends of the Dark Knight to do Year One stories without Robin... until he squandered it by tying them to Knightfall and other event slop.
>>153512814> Nah, that shit was not romanticized at all. Jason's dad got shotgunned to death in the streets like a dog, and his mom died of drug abuseHis dad dies off panel and his stepmom dies of a wasting disease that’s politely glazed over to not make it too clear to readers it’s a death of drug abuse. It’s very romanticized and clean compared to comics in the 2000s that would show the gore and show his mom as a realistic drug addict. There always was the potential to lean into those angles, which they’ve since ran with, but they wouldn’t imply Jason was selling his body in the 80s like Winnick would later.
>>153501338>>153509127doh ho ho chatbots say you cani'd vote for a permadead joker and batman. fuck those 2
>>153498094My parents weren't about to let me run up the phone bill.
>>153498094>guys haha you can totally prevent this if you call this number that gives us money, we'll totally not just kill this robin off for the sales bump anywayInsane how there are retards out there who believe DC had any plans other than killing a Robin for the sales.
>>153513109>His dad dies off panel and his stepmom dies of a wasting disease that’s politely glazed over to not make it too clear to readers it’s a death of drug abuse.No, it was obvious as to what happened, and it's not played romantically. This was a slow, painful breakdown of a family, one parent is absent (dead), and the other is literally withering away while her son watches hopelessly. Sure, it's played clean, but it hits infinitely harder than it was in the 2000s when they thought excess = realistic.
>>153512975Jason had effort put into him. Barr was one of the biggest bat writers of the 80s and Alan Grant on the bat books was an amazing pull. Collin’s was also a great writer too. It just didn’t resonate.
I think people just wanted to see if they'd actually do it. It's more obvious now in the internet age but the human propensity to be a fuckwad was always there. If you hype up something like this they're gonna call you out.
Perhaps it was the dark knight himself who killed the boy wonder... metaphorically speaking
>>153512649The 90s-00s versions were as romanticized as the 80s. 80s edge is different from 90s edge, however. See Catherine, for example. There is nothing unrealistic about her dying from a disease. Especially in the US. Adding drugs and addiction didn't add much, except more stigma. A lot could be said about this change coinciding with Jason coming back as a villain or how drugs are far from being a poor people problem. >There's way more factorsYeah, like the poll promising to kill the eponym Robin of Batman and Robin. Of course people would jump in just to see if DC would commit. The internet didn't invent trolls.
>>153513202The Jason Todd series was awful and in my headcanon I voted for this to get cancelled
>>153513284>Jason had effort put into him. Barr was one of the biggest bat writers of the 80s and Alan Grant on the bat books was an amazing pull. Collin’s was also a great writer too. It just didn’t resonate.Here's the thing: those guys (minus Alan Grant who didn't like writing Robin) DID want to write Robin, but at this time (86-87), the Crisis just happened, the editorial was a mess, and Denny seemed like a hassle to work with. Barr and Collins left, and in comes Jim Starlin. Starlin, much like Denny, hated Robin and did everything he could to not use him, and that meant making it intentionally hard to work with him to rile the fans up so they'd want to see him less. Denny knew this (he's the editor) and saw an opportunity to get what he wanted while also putting all the blame on the readers, despite the readers having no actual control over what gets written.
>DC: Jason Todd was actually despised by the readers; otherwise, he wouldn't have died!>actually died by less than one percent instead of the one-sided overkill they want you to think it wasMeanwhile, I wonder what the scoreboard would have been for Danny Chase.
>>153512881The strange thing is I liked Robin when I was a kid same as any other other oddities I figured were just part of the world of Batman, not something designed for me to experience anything through.Dick certainly carried himself as such in most cases I saw him.But it probably is a writing thing since whenever I looked at other comics and shows where there was an inexperienced youth for the rest of the cast to talk down to and handhold I couldn't stand them, so I agree with >>153512904.
I was 2 years old.
>>153513657>Danny ChaseWolfman swears that he was supposed to be intentionally grating and eventually he was going to come around in his arc but I don't believe it.
>>153515428He really did think Danny Chase was going to be the breakout child hero Jason wasn’t. Perez really was the brains of NTT.
>>153515536Robin being a thing for so many decades made comics writers think kid self-inserts were a good idea.
>>153515613>kid self-inserts A stupid label. Kids may have their faves but they use every character to safely experience different things, and kid sidekicks are most valuable for writers. The hero has now someone who they must protect, who isn't their equal and who can't overshadow them, to talk to and bounce off. They're an easy narrative device. If your character don't need that, then yes, they aren't a good idea. In the case of Robin, the name is also a brand to milk.
>>153515613It was a good idea because Robin was elevated above just being Batman's sidekick; he became a vehicle to develop the world of Gotham City and have his own adventures alone.
