Did Superman really need a reboot in 1986? There was no other way of revitalize the character?
he needed it more than anyone else did really
>>153519857This character is so stale is almost a miracle they managed to keep it going for this longIs slightly above mickey mouse in is just there because is the face of the company
>>153519913I don't think Superman is the face of DC anymore, Batman has overshadowed him
You might as well have. By the 80's they were running on keeping aligned 50 years of continuity and trying to juggle it all, while at the same time not being able to implement streamlined or innovative ideas adaptations were making. You know Smallville wasn't even in Kansas before the '79 movie? It was just the outskirts of Metropolis before. The Kents weren't farmers, they owned the town general store, Lex Luthor was a farmboy before Clark was. These are both things a lot of people would basically consider essential to Superman and are relatively much later additions in the comics themselves. I do like a lot of the pre-crisis continuity bloat and how some writers like Gerber would make use of all the Kryptionians in the Phantom Zone that came about because they kept adding Kryptonian survivors through the 50's-70's. There's something fun about the whole comic fanboy attempt to make sense of fast and loose pre-70's continuity. And some of the patches they attempted to remedy the bloat only became convoluted, like Matrix-Angel Supergirl. But overall the idea was needed. People act as if Batman didn't reboot because it didn't start at zero like Superman,and pretend Year One could fit as a general origin, but it really couldn't have fit pre-Crisis Batman. Alfred wasn't even inn Bruce's life until after Robin. That alone is a massive change.
>>153519857Every time we discuss this, we bring up how post-crisis in hindsight didn't work out because oddly enough the diehard Superman fans who skew younger PREFER Pre-Crisis comics and thinks the reboot was a mistake but an oldfag would swear with their life that if they actually lived during it, they'd *get* itGranted the reboot was always controversial, even back then
I think the reboot was ultimately necessary, but there's also a good reason DC has brought back so much of Pre-Crisis in to modern canon.
A reboot was absolutely necessary but I find Crisis distasteful. Why was it necessary to obliterate the past like 50+ years of continuity everyone at the time had been invested in for decades in some massive multiversial holocaust?
>>153519934Well is called DC comics not AC comics
>>153520021>oddly enough the diehard Superman fans who skew younger PREFER Pre-Crisis comics and thinks the reboot was a mistakeThey like select curated Silver Age comics, and more importantly, Post-Crisis comics written by Silverage fanboys like Waid and Morrison.But it's really a paper tiger and hate for Byrne since they're convinced he's some right winger, I am willing to bet a lot of those same young fans love the triangle era and characters like Kon or concepts like the marriage to Lois
>>153520168Byrne is quality superdickery the character was a complete asshole
>>153520168>They like select curated Silver Age comics, and more importantly, Post-Crisis comics written by Silverage fanboys like Waid and Morrison.Bronze Age actuallyThey really love the Bronze Age
>>153520056It really was more like the last 25 -30 years at best, with closer to the last 16 years given how fast and loose DC could be with continuity in the 60's.Remember, at one point Rob Kanigher decided to just put Wonder Woman in WWII again for a year by literally writing himself in the story and telling the readers he's retiring a bunch of the characters to make a new format for the book. It was considered more respectful of the reader's intelligence to give them a hard and fast reason why things were different rather than hoping they'd just forget or write it off in the editorial pagesThe last issue of Crisis attempts to at least look at what's happened in a way that it's more like the characters change into their post-crisis incarnations, with any fatalities of existing characters being ones that simply couldn't merge into their mainline selves for being too different. Like in general, the E2 characters because they were aged, so Dick Grayson of E2 died because nothing of him would be merged into E1 Dick.
>>153520168They also don't want him to have any semblance of a human identity because it doesn't align with the immigrant angle enough. Also he can't be married to Lois.
>>153520506>They also don't want him to have any semblance of a human identityIt's not that actuallyThey're with Clark loving humanity and Earth What they hate is Clark treating being "human" as better than him being Kryptonian and dismissing his heritage
>>153520204>superdickery Lol!
Superman is Superman. There's no difference between the guy in the 1950s comics and the 1990s comics. Focusing on lore is autism. Just enjoy your capeshit moralfaggotry and don't think too hard about it.
>>153519857Meanwhile they kept the Legion of Superheroes and the Kirby Bronze Age stuff in continuity which screwed it all up even more when they rebooted everything post crisis.
>>153522653Cope
There are sale figures. https://rsmwriter.blogspot.com/2023/01/comics-sales-1985-1986.htmlThey were really, really bad.The top ten:X-Men 438,000 (est.)G. I. Joe 331,475Transformers 300,000 (est.)Amazing Spider-Man 276,064Fantastic Four 251,083West Coast Avengers 244,958Alpha Flight 239,584Web of Spider-Man 239,225Avengers 237,241Spectacular Spider-Man 231,000 (est.)And then the superbooks:Superman 98,443Action Comics 61,157And the year before:Superman 98,767Action Comics 66,656Yes, that is relaunch-necessary bad. And it worked about as well as it could.Action Comics 181,767(Adventures of) Superman 161,859>Byrne's Superman revamp continued in the monthly comics in three titles: a new Superman series, Action Comics, and the previous Superman series, which was retitled Adventures of Superman. Byrne wrote and drew the first two, with other creative personnel handling the third. The sales of the new series are unknown, but Byrne almost tripled the per-issue average of Action Comics. The series not by Byrne saw a sales increase of over 60 percent.
>>153520532They hate the Metropolis supporting cast like Bibbo and hate the marriage, somehow they believe Lois scheming to trick Superman into marrying him is a better fit and does more for her character than just having them be married.
>>153520204Zan from the Wonder Twins
>>153524582>somehow they believe Lois scheming to trick Superman into marrying him is a better fit and does more for her character than just having them be married.They got to read Lois comics, and found the humor to be like those of adult cartoons without adult jokes.I saw them compare it to family guy and American Dad.
>>153524904I wouldn't go that far, but yeah they were funny.
>>153523804It’s weird to think that the three spider titles were so close in sales, to the point I don’t really understand why they bothered to cross the books over for almost every story a few years after this
>>153519913stuff like Superman being ass raped in a Russian prison camp for 8 months...
>>153525007Am almost tempted to revisit Byrne's superman stranded in space series am pretty sure they raped him there
>>153525027Don't remember anything like that, but Wolfman, Byrne, and Ordway did have him bang Amazing Grace when he had amnesia.
>>153519857You have to read Superman from around 1978's DC Implosion till 1983 when Crisis was greenlit and they began to actively give a shit about Superman to get an idea of how stale Superman had gotten.The biggest status quo change Pre-Crisis was when Clark became a television news anchor in the early 70's.
>>153519857He needed some fresh bloodCurt Swan was still drawing the character at that point and that style wasn’t exactly hot with modern readers And a “reboot” was a good way to get some excitement for a book back then too,Really most of the stuff they did post crisis could have been done with the original characters anyways so it wasn’t really necessary >rich LexHe went “good” plenty of times before so just do it again but keep it around for a long time and just say he got rich from his inventions >be Lex>go to jail>say he can prove that the chemicals that Superman blew into his face and caused his baldness also turned him evil>here I found a cure!>now I’m good …I hope I can make up for all the problems I caused when I was evil>next week he’s running Lex Corp
>>153525078That’s rape!!!!!
I miss Bronze Age skeleton robot Brainiac.He should have stayed post-crisis.
>>153525078That's a man
>>153526781Female characters are drawn with weird faces when doing rape, see Brainiac 2's rape scene.
>>153519913He has as much character depth as a cereal mascot
>>153526707Early post crisis brainiac was pretty lame.
>>153520021>PREFER Pre-Crisis comicsShut up. Those people who prefer pre-crise preferred it decades after the fact. You need to look at the people who actually grew up in the 80s and not some dumb fuck zoomers who ironically like the sillyness because youtube told them too.
>>153526925Man of Steel got out of rails really fast, and the character assassination of Krypton is felt to this day.
First, is not byrne superman , is Wolfman and Ordway, and Ordway was the one who stay after Byrne and Wolfman left.Second, most of the byrne stuff got removed and Binder stuff reintroduced.Third, post crisis superman takes most of inspiration from Bronze Age superman (Fourth world, Space stuff, the importance of superman for earth and pseudophilosofy/monologue of superman) , Wolfman was a bronze age superman writer so of course post crisis is just an evolution of that.And last, who cares, current superman lore is just a combination of both SA and post crisis.Batman is more fucked , O'neil brag that didn't did a reboot but unironically nothing before his run matter for Batman (Morrison is the only that tried)
The Post-Crisis Superman didn't have nearly the c contempt or disdain for the Pre-Crisis stuff as much as some other books did, yeah there was sometimes a meaner and more raw edge to characters like Luthor and Metallo but by the 11th issue Mxyzptlk was already showing up and Clark was in love with a mermaid.
>>153527301Why did you delete?
>>153527110>the character assassination of Krypton is felt to this day.Not in any story it isn't. People who can't let things go might still complain about it, but Byrne's Krypton was retconned way back in 2001. It was only around for 15 years before Jeph Loeb reset it back to the way it was before.
>>153527283>Batman is more fucked , O'neil brag that didn't did a reboot but unironically nothing before his run matter for Batman (Morrison is the only that tried)In all fairness, what from before 1969 could really be used that was truly a loss?Year One does a bunch of major changes- making Alfred their from the beginning, changing Catwoman's origin, establishing Gordon's origin and changing his family. The biggest thing dropped is arguably Joe Chill, and if he should be known or not. something that was flipflopped a lot for a while. I'd argue what Morrison did really wasn't much respectful either. the Zuhr En Arrh issue was treated as a hallucination, the League of Batmen were washed up, it was vague as far as what counted and what didn't, making Kathy Kane the daughter of a Nazi and a secret agent, and so on.
Superman was more toyetic in the Bronze Age.
>>153527283I would have to see a source of O'Neil claiming it wasn't a reboot, because it definitely was. They retconned Jason Todd's entire origin and added more drama to why Dick Grayson quit being Robin. They just kept most of fhe Batman stories published in the 70s-80s when they didn't contradict the new take on the character, unlike Superman and Wonder Woman who completely wiped the slate clean.And Batman wasn't the only character like this. Teen Titans, LoSH, The Flash, Green Lantern, Swamp Thing all continued on as usual, just with a few retcons here and there.
>>153527874Do they keep pre-crisis kryptonian lore in current Superman comics?
>>153529498It's pretty much been the same ever since 2001.
DC had already effectively rebooted in the late 50's/early 60's and 70's in an attempt to keep relevant. The differenceA bunch of changes made to Batman and Superman in the 70's were similarly attempts to keep them relevant. The difference is that Crisis outright wiped the slate instead of dancing around the issue
>>153528399The reboot in general was sorta a messByrne tried to made that Four world canon while O'neil made the same with Bronze Age stuff, while everyone else Lore is canon but Wonder Woman is a reboot Which made hilarious situation of making Batman a sorta myth but at the same time being with the JLI or Canary being Wondy replacement in the canon
>>153527874Always though why not making both krypton canon.A Planet with 2 supernations: The Byrne council being a protomaoist ditatorship while Finger/Siegel/Shuster krypton being the pacifict science republic(which made more sense they went for the Phantom zone)You can made that Superman mother is for the council and Jor el from the republic and Clark is the children of a Romeo/juliet romance
>>153530428O'Neil let them use Batman early on in JLI because he felt sorry for them, they weren't allowed to use any of the other big characters. All the editors were keeping a tight leash on them so they could establish their new deal. After the title became a hit, he pulled him back a bit as someone to loan out on a part-time basis before eventually pulling him away entirely. "Batman is an urban legend" wasn't leaned in on fully until the Zero Hour retcons in 1994.
>>153520506Clark as a fake construct is weird, imagine the reverse. Some human guy goes to a planet of pathetically less capable aliens and pretends to be one of them and acts like virtual cripple, puts on a costume so he could work as a janitor or something and seduce his alien coworker while hiding his true nature for decades. Then every so often he puts on colorful tights and flys around solving their problems.
>>153530698It was basically reverse John Carter
>>153530698“Clark Kent” being Superman’s hobby and an elaborate prank on his dipshit coworkers is chad af and so much more inherently interesting than the opposite. And don’t give me any shit about parroting the Kill Bill take, I’ve been a fan longer than you’ve been alive and have absorbed obscene amounts of Superman media going back to the beginning.
>>153526707Robo Skeleton Brainiac was the best version of the character. He meets the "Master programmer" (God) and now wants to kill the Angel of Death (Superman) so he can become the supreme being of the universe was an interesting way to give the character better motivation (besides shrinking cities which he doesn't really do outside his first appearance)the Robot with a religious obsession felt like the Cylons in BattleStar Galactica (the newer version)The Pre-Crisis Wolfman run was pretty good: forgotten heroes, vandal savage, Split Superman Satanus, Robo Brainiac.
>>153526918This
>>153527874That's a goofy ass costume
>>153527874>Jor-El grinned, "Yes, son, I placed fake images in the birthing matrix.">"Why?" asked Superman.>"lol," replied Jor-El.
>>153527874Didn't this story end up with this whole thing being a fakeout too and the Byrne stuff still being true?
>>153529498Mostly yeah, with some modern stuff sprinkled in for good measure.
>>153526653>Critic Wallace Harrington summed up Swan's dismissal this way:>... the most striking thing that DC did was to completely turn their back on the one man that had defined Superman for three decades ... They closed the door and turned out the lights on the creator that had defined their whole line. With no real thanks, no pomp nor circumstance, DC simply relieved Curt of his artistic duties on Superman. Curt Swan who had drawn Superman in Action, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Superman, and World's Finest, and drew Superboy in Adventure Comics, who was the quintessential Superman artist of the 1960s, '70s and '80s. He became just another victim of the 1980s implosion. Gone.tf did they want? the guy was in his 60s. time to retire.
>>153527874While portions of it were a bit off (Krypton abandoning physical intimacy, the Cleric's whole deal being part of Byrne's plan to make Kal-El an American citizen by using the birthing matrix in Kansas instead of being born on Krypton), I do like the visual design of the outfits and the sterile world that lost its way. >>153530479 has a good idea that's a better compromise than throwing the MoS concept out on its ear.
>>153535170the way Jim Aparo was let go from the batbooks is probably the best way any long time comic artist has been ushered out. They let him draw the Bane vs Batman issue where he gets his back broken knowing it'd net big royalty payments, then gradually minimized his workload until he was just drawing a few issues here and there.Comics are thankless work and artists are at the mercy of the audience's reception. I've seen a lot of people complain about Aparo's art in Knightfall and it being underwhelming, and that's the unfortunate aspect of it. The reader doesn't care how long the artist has been at it, if they don't like it they simply don't like it.
>>153535235a few years before Knightfall there was a four part Batman story that was split between Aparo, and motherfucking Breyfogle. With no disrespect to Aparo, he got fucking smoked hard and the whiplash between the two issues was palpable and his art did detract from what enjoyment I could have gained from his issues.
>>153524582>BibboHe's cool in their books funnily enough
You're all WRONG!
>>153519857>There was no other way of revitalize the character?There is no way to do it. Superman is an extremely unappealing concept. He has power so most of his enemies can't challenge him since humans can't beat Kryptonians with ease. And Clark's sense of morality is a huge turn off, he's a boy scout who allows seriously terrible criminals to be repeat offenders. Not as extreme as Batman but this tarnishes his image and it shows in the box office for his latest movie. Audiences are notably losing interest in the Superman.And then there's other issues with this franchise like how annoying Lois actually is constantly acting like a bitch to Clark and he tolerates it making him a rather lame hero. Don't be surprised if this element inspired Mark from Invincible and his luck with bitch women. Superman belongs to to an era that can't come back and the rules of super heroes greatly limit him by default like not liberally being allowed to kill criminals who've earned it and I don't mean mindless monsters like Doomsday. There is no way to rescue this brand from diminishing returns and incoming failure.Warner is in trouble and Batman can't defend them from bankruptcy forever.
bumt
>>153519857with how overpowered he was? probablycharacter-wise? not rly, but if it weren't for the groundwork byrne laid out, the clark and lois marriage wouldn't've gone the way it did so
>>153536336Yeah he’s very unappealing . He could only carry a few monthly comics , various tv shows and cartoons over decades of time Literally no one likes him. Very good point
>>153535155Nah, by 2001 DC was done with Byrne's Krypton. A couple of years later they published Waid's Superman Birthright which was intended to erase Man of Steel from continuity entirely. But it didn't take, too many weird Waidisms, and they finally found something they liked with Johns's Secret Origin in 2009 until they rebooted the entire line a couple of years later and Morrison did his version.>>153537238Earth One Superman was depowered in the early 70s when they retooled Superman for the bronze age. They were doing whatever they could to get people interested in reading Superman in the 70s and 80s. In 1983 they gave Luthor a battlesuit and made Brainiac a cool and scary-looking robot to try to get more kids interested. It didn't work. Nothing short of a reboot with a star creator would get people's attention.
Funny how pre-Crisisfags also think that Clark being a reporter is also completely superfluous to the character.
>>153538299News anchor is more modern though.How can Clark be a press news reporter when that barely pays these days in a dying industry.
