what happened to DC universe in the 2000s decade? asking from complete ignorance. I always say that decade was the edgy, punk era. new millenium, new technology, new generation, it affected all pop culture. Music, cinema, etc.. included superhero comics?? Edgy and deconstruction of the genre were mostly created here (The Boys, Invincible, Ireedemeable, etc). I like Marvel so I know about them, House of M, World War Hulk, Civil War, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Siege.. a whole decade of darkness, the marvel heroes themselves acknowledge people lost trust in superheroes, thus concluding in Heroic Age... But what about DC?? I dont really know dc. how edgy was dc in this ear??
Blah blah blah who cares comics suck
>>153597513Written off in Final Crisis
>>153597513I tend to recall 2008 or so DC trying so fucking hard to imitate Silver Age as much as humanly possible that making a book LOOK like a 60s-70s era book was way more important than sales or story.>Hal was alive again for no reason>Barry was alive again for no reason>Ted Kord is back, who cares how well that Mexican guy sold books or had tv appearances!>Donna Troy is alive, not married, does not have a kid, and is like 19 again for no reason!>Supergirl and Kandor are back, fuck that other Linda or whatever..>Kyle was sidelined and all his villain killed off >Wally was sidelined and ignored>Impulse, Jade, Arsenal, and Star Girl just sort of stopped existing>Superman was drawn specifically to look like Christopher Reeve>Zod, Ursa, and Non were the main Superman villains againLex started the decade as President, and ended the decade as a 80s style penniless bad guy in stupid purple armor...
DiDio really wanted to copy Marvel.
>>153597513It depends on which character. They tried making Batman excessively edgy (which makes no sense when you think about it). Basically, it was start of the trend where Batman stopped being a detective and became some 300 IQ all-round genius mastermind with ten million contingency plans and can punch Superman in the face with a tiny kryptonite ring without breaking his arm, and only talks in grunts and murmurs to his friends and allies. Oh and his girlfriend fucking dies and his bodyguard takes the fall for him and he doesn't bother letting anyone help cuz he's le grimdark Batman, and lets his bodyguard rot and die in prison, and then fucks Catwoman but can't commit to relationship with her because all he does is talk in ape-grunts, and by the way his childhood friend comes back and is some surgeon serial killer machiavellian supervillain that quotes Socrates or someshit, and oh by the way one of his Robins accidently triggers some kind of magical contigency plan thing where all the gotham mob bosses conveniently meet each other and then kill each other and all of sudden there's a gang war in gotham and yadda yadda Jason comes back as le edgy Red hood I hate you Bruce why didn't you kill Joker (the Ayatollah of Iran wouldn't let him) and blah blah...Then Morrison took some cocaine and brought back some brightly colored unnecessary Silver Age shit.
>>153597761>>Ted Kord is back, who cares how well that Mexican guy sold books or had tv appearances!He didn't come back in the 00s. post-IC Booster just teamed up with him in a time travel adventure. He wasn't truly alive again until New 52 and even then Jaime was the primary Blue Beetle
QRD:>DC starts the decade still in the late 90s lull>suddenly marvel survives via the ultimate line>DC tries copying the success of civil war with equally needless edgeslop Identity Crisis>Johns starts becoming a top player in the company and forms a coalition with Waid and Morrison >they steer everyone into embracing Infinite Crisis and everything becomes centered around it >Waid gets salty at Didio and bails post 52>Johns and Morrison are drunk with power, continue submitting the company to their will with blackest night and final crisis>everything not justice league related is either forgettable or horrible Canon breaking trash >nobody can follow Morrison's narrative correctly >Didio makes a power play and pushes new 52, citing the convoluted state of DC circa 2010
>>153597513The greatest heroes of a dead multiverse came to save us all from the darkness.
>>153597513It was sorta stupid that Tim Drake was still in high school in the 2000s
green lanturn,JSA,green lanturn corps by geoff johnsJLA, doom patrol,animal man by grant morrison
>>153599604Tim was designed to be in highschool forever because three Robins is already too many but you need one and Dick is grown now, so he's here to be Robin. Dick was in Highschool for like 30 years and stayed 18 for like 15 years, Tim was getting pushed out 15 years into his run.
>>153597513>"Where are these guys even looking?">"Who is the main character?"
>>153597513does batman deal fatal blows with these razor blades on his arms
>>153597601Fuck off
>>153599604Tim was designed to be the Spider-Man of DC, but the eternal childhood version.It, similar to Kyle, is one of the reasons for why he floundered.
In my experience aside from like maybe batman DC kinda felt like they were out of their time back in the 2000s, similarly to how Marvel feels like they are out of their time currently
>>153597601Why are you here, then?
>>153597513>I always say that decade was the edgy, punk era.And yet Thats not at all what DC in the 2000s was. Outside of Identity Crisis it was pretty wholesome.
>>153597513It had its ups and downs but pretty much every franchise had to deal with at least one stupid and edgy thing for way too long.Graduation Day and Identity Crisis were definitely stains on the Titans/Young Justice and JLA. They killed Lilith and Donna to give that entire franchise angst. JLA had Zatanna wipe Batman's mind and make a bunch of villains good in order to give Batman a reason to become an even bigger asshole. Titans had Outsiders and 2008 Titans which were both garbage. Young Justice crew got turned darker and edgier with Teen Titans and the 2003 TT run is where A TITAN DIES! comes from sooo.Wally was replaced by Bart in a shit book only for Bart to get turbokilled a year later and that impacted Piper and Trickster pretty bad in Countdown.Wonder Woman had a three decent to good runs (Jimenez, Rucka, Simone) but was narratively was kinda ruined by Infinite Crisis due to DC trying to convince everybody that her killing the guy controlling Superman was a bad thing. She also had to deal with her mother being killed in an event early in the decade.The Batman franchise dealt with a lot of edgy bullshit, like Steph being murdered in a really horrific way and being blamed for everything, Tim reacting to Steph, Kon, and his dad being killed in a span of like three years, Dick basically going through Born Again, Bruce wanting to shed the Bruce identity and be Batman all the time and basically becoming the turbo asshole he is today, etc.Superman franchise also dealt with a lot of stuff but one of the biggest was Kara coming back and being a major edgy bitch.Tbh JSA was probably the biggest franchise with the least edge. Most of the stupid edgy stuff happened after Johns. And desu even most of the edgy stuff under Johns like Black Reign was surprisingly more emotional and impactful which is unlike most of the other edgy stuff he wrote. The edgiest it got was the nazis killing Citizen Steel's family.
>2000World War III event ends, Lex Luthor becomes President, Emperor Joker storyline>2001The Imperex War/Our Worlds At War event, DC tries to get into manga publishing with CMX brand, Joker's Laugh Laugh storyline,>2002Didio joins DC, Bruce Wayne Fugitive/Hush storylines,>2003YJ/TT Graduation Day event, Teen Titans restarts to coincide with the cartoon>2004Identity Crisis, Hal Jordan returns as GL>2005Infinite Crisis lead-up, All-Star line introduced>2006Infinite Crisis, 52, One Year Later events>2007Countdown, Rainbow Lantern Corps introduced>2008Batman RIP, Final Crisis, New Krypton>2009Blackest Night, Batman Reborn, Faces of EvilMuch like Marvel at the time, more than half the decade was dedicated to mega event crossovers.
>>153604863>Wondie in Rucka's runAthena's chosen champion, forced into fight after fight that challenge her principles, blinds herself to fight medusa and refuses to have her sight restored in favor of a child she couldn't save being brought back to life, literally weeps at the thought that her mission to inspire hope could be all for naught, genuinely goes to Superman and Batman to plead her case about Maxwell Lord; knowing their trust may never be restored in her>Wondie in Infinite CrisisA bloodthirsty killbot who has to learn that killing is not the way to save the dayWhy bother including a character in your crossover if you're going to basically throw everything about them out the door?The wild thing is that they kept this dichotomy in nu52. They never explain what happened to change her from the insane killer she is in JL to the thoughtful warrior of peace in her own book in it.
>>153600930More confirmation that he's DC's very own Peter Parker.
>>1536060122009 was the best year. Also faces of evil was just one issue in a month, a month event and not all titles.
>>153597513There's good comics but you have to wade through a lot of shit to get to them and it's compounded by DiDio being a giant asshole.
yes
>>153597513>I always say that decade was the edgy, punk eraLmao. How old are you?
>>153604386>wholesome A bunch of teenagers getting maimed and murdered, heroes getting grey deaths, Black Adam and Superboy Prime tearing people up like rag dolls, rape and degenerate sex and superheroes acting trashy was wholesome?
>>153610078See >>153610609
>>153598226Gotta make a bunch of corrections here.>>DC starts the decade still in the late 90s lullThey were on top in the late 90s/early 00s though yeah there was a quick downslide after the Jemas/Quesada revolution.>>DC tries copying the success of civil war with equally needless edgeslop Identity CrisisIC predates CW by two years. They were trying to be darker and edgier and more like Marvel, as they always have.The 70s, 80s, 90s, 10s, and 20s (Absolute) all had their "We need to be more like Marvel" moments.>>Didio makes a power play and pushes new 52, citing the convoluted state of DC circa 2010It wasn't convoluted. Sales were just garbage in 2010-11, as they were in 1984-85, so they had to do another drastic quick fix.>>153604386Batman: War Games/CrimesCountdownCry for Justice/Rise of ArsenalYet Another Titan DiesWhat happened to Bart Allen And there were many other edgy stories, like the JSA Classified arc where Delores Winters was evil even without being possessed by the Ultra-Humanite and skinned Icemaiden alive. Dan Didio wanted the comics to resemble those of his youth but he also wanted them dark and edgy to suit his arrested development middle-aged tastes.
>>153610651It's not punknorcedgyveither. Unless you mean the midwit "edgy" which is just "grimdark" which is something cape comics have had since the early 80s.
>>153598454And were ceremoniously killed for that.
>>153597761>Hal was alive again for no reasonNigga, it’s because the Green Lantern books were in dire straits.
>>153611269Marz and Winick got solid numbers. It weakened a bit under Ben Raab, but it's Ben Raab, a literal who was just filling in time. Hal came back as GL solely because Didio was a boomer who wanted his childhood hero back to the way he was.
>>153611162Dan Didio designed identity crisis to remove the smile from dc comics.
>>153612339Yeah, Didio did not like kid shit in his superhero comics https://www.tcj.com/2020-report-day-day-three-interviews/3/>Didio would get so angry he would throw things and shout and slam doors – the door frame to his co-publisher office had a crack around it because he’d slammed it so many times. I once saw him throw lettering copy at an associate editor in a rage. He threw his office phone to the ground once and then was so angry about it being broken that you could hear him bellowing for his assistant down the hall to get him a new phone.>One of my favorite personal Didio stories is that we were doing Batman and Detective Comics annuals and Mike Marts, my boss, had allowed me to edit a two page story in each featuring the first published version of Dustin Nguyen’s Lil Gotham stuff. Nguyen had been doing those drawings on his own for a while and we really liked them but never had a place for them, until these annuals came along.>Anyway, Didio found out we were putting “kiddy shit” in mainstream Batman comics, and he lost his mind. Someone, I don’t remember who, popped into my office and told me that Dan was furious upon seeing the lettering and that he was going to come down to scream at me. Marts told me to leave for the day (it was already like 5 anyway) and that he would handle it, so I scampered. Marts got the brunt of the ranting and screaming that was meant for me. I felt guilty but also relieved, you know? I don’t hold up well under screaming.>And of course, a few years later, they published longer form Lil Gotham stuff to great critical praise which made me laugh.
>>153608270>>153606012>>153604863I'm rapidly approaching the 90s in my DC journey and terrified about eventually landing in the 2000s. I'm excited to get to see Cass' first appearance so that'd motivating me for Batman, but is there a year most people pick as a cutoff? Or is it worth pushing through till 2010 for Batman, Flash and Green Lantern stories? Did authors treat IC like it never happened?
>>153614362There's a mix of bad and good. IMO the post-Infinite Crisis status quo was mostly all right with a few really bad calls but the bleakest part of the decade was 2005 and they did pivot away from that with OYL.
>>153597513I'll tell you what, no matter what anyone complains about DC in 2000s did better than DC n 2010s. 2011 is when The New 52 launched off.The new 52 took a legitimately legendary run (Geoff Johns's Green Lantern) and replaced it with absolute fucking guttershit.>a bloo bloo i am an awkward latinaholy SHIT SHUT THE FUCK UP
>>153599604Ash has been 10 years old for 30 years
>>153601413you know I feel like those have never become a gimmick or plot point in any way. has he ever used the blades for anything?I know dick grayson once used his bat ears as a projectile weapon once, I think it was in Morrison's B&R
>>153601299would Torishima save DC?
>>153615076I think he used them in Batman begins
>>153604863That reminds me, if I did a 2000s Teen Titans storytime, there's not really any crossovers to worry about beyond the Outsiders one and Deathtrap right? I think it'd be just Graduation Day, the ongoing and Terror Titans. i guess the Titans ongoing too.>but it sucksIt does but while I like storytiming things I enjoy, I also like storytiming things that I think are interesting in some way and I think the Titans are very emblematic of DC in the 2000s. I think reading it does a good job of uderstanding the issues people had with the company as a whole.
>>153615038I'll give it a chance then anon, thanks. If I can get through it all by next decade, that'll just leave New 52 since I jumped in after Infinite Frontier or so
>>1536150382009 had Blackest Night, ANOTHER TITAN DIES, the Wonderdog stoy is basically close enough, Cry For Justice and probably a lot I'm forgetting. It was grime as fuck. That 2008-2011 period reads like superhero comics created by people who hate superheroes and their readers.
>>153616594Yeah, Didio was always going to be Didio, but the Superbooks, Morrison and Dini Batman, Rucka/Williams Batwoman, Gray/Palmiotti Jonah Hex, Gray/Palmiotti/Conner Power Girl, Bedard's REBELS, Simone's Secret Six, Grell's return to conclude Warlord, BQM's Batgirl, Yost's Red Robin were all pretty good. A few really bad calls, but a lot of books were able to avoid them.
>>153598226>Waid gets salty at Didio and bails post 52Waid was under contract until 2007 and after that he left to be EIC at Boom for 3 yearsNow after that period was up he would have probably come back to DC except they had promoted Bob Harras to EIC and Bob Harras had fucked Waid so hard on Captain America he never wanted to work for him again, which is why literally the year after he was fired Waid was back doing World's Finest
>>153617872He and Didio definitely had problems. https://web.archive.org/web/20131114154126/https://comicsalliance.com/mark-waid-slams-dan-didio-and-dc-comics/>“The biggest challenge [of 52] was actually, wisely, kept from us by [editor] Steve [Wacker]. EIC Dan Didio, who first championed the concept, hated what we were doing. H-A-T-E-D 52. Would storm up and down the halls telling everyone how much he hated it. And Steve, God bless him, kept us out of the loop on that particular drama. [Editor Michael] Siglain, having less seniority, was less able to do so, and there’s one issue of 52 near the end that was written almost totally by Dan and Keith Giffen because none of the writers could plot it to Dan’s satisfaction. Which was and is his prerogative as EIC, but man, there’s little more demoralizing than taking the ball down to the one-yard line and then being benched by the guy who kept referring to COUNTDOWN as ‘52 done right.’”I can't remember the exact year, but at one point he was physically banned from DC's offices when they were still in New York. And not too long ago he talked about being blacklisted by Didio personally. https://boundingintocomics.com/comic-books/larry-hama-and-mark-waid-accuse-dan-didio-of-blacklisting-them-from-dc-comics-waid-takes-it-even-further>Waid replied to Moore stating, “True. At least once, he actually came up to me and told me that he’d heard I thought I was blacklisted and it wasn’t true. A quick call to the editors at DC always proved exactly the opposite: ‘We were told in no uncertain terms to never hire you.'”
>>153618308IIRC it's strongly suspected if not confirmed that the issue in question that DiDio rewrote himself was the World War III issue.
>>153618308I don't doubt he and Didio had problems but he kept working for two years afterwardsWhether the blacklist was real was one thing but personally I don't think the math works out. Hama claimed Priest was on it and one of the first things Priest said in 2016 when he came back to write Deathstroke is that the only reason he wasn't doing comics is that no one offered him anything other than black charactersAnd Waid claimed Wieringo was on it but Ringo was died while Waid was still working there
>>153618442Black Adam going on a rampage?
Had its own weakpoints and problems, but I felt the core DCU narrative in the 2000s was easily the strongest it ever was. Infinite Crisis, 52, Final Crisis, all felt impactful and high-concept. Plus, some genuine heaters on the miniseries side. That decade had All-Star Superman AND New Frontier.
It was a decade-long humiliation ritual for the Titans. All of them.
>>153618665Yeah, the reasoning being it's noticeably week and feels generally out of place but pushes an editorial event.
