This is the pivotal moment where not only comics went to shit but this board as a whole too. The schism event in X-men and the last days before dc new 52 reboot were the prequels too as discussion on here was taking a nosedive.
>>153645341it was a lot of thingsX-Men was basically unreadable at that point anyway and had leaned into the whole paramilitary pseudostate thing for too longbut then they tried to fix it with an event and the shitflinging started because only apes care about eventseditorial misread the room and didn't understand they were selling to morons who were so personally invested in the X-Men that any reversal was taken as a personal insult, then gave the P5 the powers of gods and the brains of morons which, predictably, the morons sided with until it inevitably had to end (because event)the actual ending? with Hope being trained by the Avengers and treated like a human being instead of the fucking jailbait reincarnation of Jean that Scott had been eyeing her up as? great, solid ending, 5/7, would end that way again, mutants coming back by forcibly mutating people all over world maybe not such a great idea but did at least make Scottfags look hypocritical when the Inhumans did it toobut the getting there? awfuland the follow-up? Bendis should have been dragged down the road until he was a bloody belt on a chain for that shitall in all it's a symptom of tread-water comics where you can't really change shit and each passing year makes it harder and harder to change shit because there's fewer and fewer actual readersthis board was already a dump you're forgiving a lot of shit there by 2012 bucko
>>153646070>everything bad in X-Men can be traced to BendisIt's elemental at this point.
>>153645341AvX was the moment I noticed any post trying to do the "debate" over whether Cap or Cyclops was right, came off way more artificial than the fan arguments for Civil War. It felt like they were trying too hard to make it another Civil War
>>153645341AvX is fucking garbage as well as Schism (that's Jason Aaron for you), but this board was a shithole well before then, I assure you. This, House of M and X-23: Target-X did confirm the Avengers largely don't give a shit about Mutants and definitely was the ground zero of X-fans hating the Avengers and started the whole "Avengers are dirty cops" mindset that was exacerbated by Bendis' portrayal of Carol in Civil War II as an (actual) fascist.
>>153647550>AvX>Civil War II Alonso era>House of M >X-23: Target-XQuesada eraThis leads me to believe that this problem with "Avengers not caring about Mutants" comes from bad editorial direction stemming from the Quesada and Alonso and Cebluski era editors I don't think Marvel gets enough shit for that, mainly because there's too many stupid fans on Twitter and elsewhere that believe this has always been the case
>>153645341A long time ago, a producer in charge of DC's live action movies said that if they ever made a Batman vs Superman movie, that would be it. It would be proof to the world that they were officially out of ideas and desperate. That's how I view AVX. Marvel was officially out of ideas for events, and for Xmen and Avengers stories. And while Marvel bounced back a bit with some interesting plotlines here and there, AVX was a turning point where it's clear they just don't care anymore, and all the talent from their writers is gone. They were in a downwards spiral prior to AVX, but there was still a little bit of care and planning put in to the stories before it.
>>153647646>>153647550Honestly with how Bloodties happened, I expected team-up to be a bit more common. Instead, we go "you're the guy who compares everything to Hitler" type of arguments.Seriously, Carol, Red Skull made a better rebuttal than you.
Schism was such a mess for this board as /co/ called a lot of shit that was going to happen immediately after, like wolverine opening that school and immediately training child soldiers after he fought cyclops over training kids into child soldiers. One of the dumbest shit that doesn’t get called out enough.
>>153645341I was going to ask what was going on over at DC at the time to contribute to this, but then I remembered.
>>153648052IIRC Perch said that after New 52 happened, during the Marvel writers summit editorial asked everyone how would they upend their book (ie Slott would plan to have Peter "die" and Otto become the new Spider-Man) and to go with thatHonestly it kind of explains how everything since then feels like some desperate attempt to be some kind of over-the-top event across the board
>>153647550they were fascist since civil war 1.Genosha to House of M through decimation, second coming, avx, then ending with krakoa, when hope accomplishes bringing back all the dead mutants they've lost, is one long ass singular narrative. Its a 25 year long pretty compelling meta storyline which is an impressive achievement despite its failings.
>>153648260Krakoa is just the third templeDon't tell Krakoa fans that cuz they'll hunt you down as it's not good nowadays
>>153648567it not being "good nowadays" is why your trying to use it as a smear on a comic fandom you don't like despite how incredibly non-existent the connection is.
>>153648659I just hate Krakoa era and I'll use anything at my disposal to smear it's worthless, sanded down, quirky carcassIt's about hate.
>>153647261I have said it before and I will say it again.Bendis is the poster child for when you have like two god stories in you and then coast off those for the rest of your carrier.
>>153646070Impressive succinct but thorough FPBP
>>153648798impressive bait sure.
>>153648702
>>153645341really? looked to me like it was just rightclops wank and wolverine wank because things similar to this have happened beforewhen cable was going to maintain a floating island for mutants (cable and deadpool), reed richards sicced silver surfer on him for no fucking reason-beast does not want to kill the phoenix force because they're actually helping solve problems-then the plot calls for beast to switch to avenger side for this eventmeanwhile:-wolverine and captain america jump at the fucking chance to kill the phoenix force without enough evidence to know what a danger they arethis is called plot armor. start the story with a foregone conclusion, then have the most "marketable" characters be right without enough evidencethis was done again when cable runs with hope through the future and then writers have bishop napalm the entire continent of south america in some random future timeline. rightclops assumes bishop is in the wrong and would murder without any evidence. time travelers get to time travel, but only rightclops gets to decide which one is the right one, which conveniently happens to be his sonit's hard to remember all this shit. the wikipedia page literally describes wolverine switching sides in act 1 because he thinks hope has to be killed then hope saves him and suddenly they're fine then she asks him to kill her. like wtfi can understand if events have a specific purpose to tastefully include characters for important things, but it's fucking old bullshit when it keeps happening over and over while sidelining other characters who are better problem solvers who can think things through better than literally everyone else. then the same writers make the problem solvers background characters too
>>153648860>posts meme indicating they're a fascist and/or just have zero standards
>>153647978I remember Jason Aaron had an issue where the school was shown to be completely nonsensical, jet packs classes and FUN, no life developing curriculum.Also later some of the kids joined the Junior Hellfire Club.All of this was supposedly highly appropriate childcare compared to what came before.
>>153647978don't forget uncanny x-force>all this violence is bad, which is why i have to do this death squad thing>oh by the way lets use dark beast for a mission without telling our beast>restarts death squad thing when rightclops is found out because people didn't want it to happen>later everyone says rightclops was cool and was completely absolvedwolverine gets to do literally anything he wants in marvel comics and it's retarded>kills hundreds of people>gets upset when krakoa's economy is built on killing people>does not get upset when villains join council>does not get upset when cassandra nova comes to krakoa>kills his own clone without giving it a chance to be sapient or make its own choices>gets mad that beast kills him even though death doesn't matter and resurrection protocols means there are no stakes whatsoever
>>153648982>so mindraped he think that ethnocentrism = fascismFitting that you avatarfag as Beast, KWAB
>>153648727>god>carrier
>>153648972>>153648982>>153649131>Beastschizo shits up another threadThe fact that you're a ponyfag explains a lot >>152873918
>>153649138>hurr durr, they're differentthey're practically the same when actions towards those goals are carried out. magneto literally goes on a diatribe about taking over the capitalist economy with capitalism for his ethnic group.suck a tailpipe
>>153649160
At least we got this
>>153649082Ah yeah, the Hellfire club. A very nice place for sure
>>153649160the first time i saw you call someone beastslur was 2019. you've been a loser for at least 7 years, buddy
>>153648860
>>153649131>rightclopsThat's gonna be my favorite slander for wannabee Malcolm X
>>153648972Wolverine didn't switch sides, he was aggressively agitating for the conflict on the avengers side from the first second. He then goes off to hunt down and assassinate hope in cold blood, as is his usual fashion, but he changes his mind after 2 seconds of talking to her because he's a fucking retard. If the story intended to be "rightclops wank" then they wouldn't have spent about 4 years calling him hitler afterwards. The event would have been called x-men vs avengers, and they wouldn't have lost.>rightclops assumes bishop is in the wrong and would murder without any evidence.he didn't have evidence, his assumption was based on hearsay and second hand rumors he half reminded from childhood. He couldn't even prove hope was the person they were referring to. Bishop was going through post traumatic stress breakdown.
>>153649286>calling him hitlerthat's wank because it's negative attention and then he was lionized again after uncanny 600 if not multiple times before>hearsay and rumorsso instead of using some psychics to probe his mind, they did some travel bullshit so rightclops could be right
>>153649320*negative attention as in, any attention is good attention*time travel bullshitsorry, i'm fucking tired
>>153649131>wolverine gets to do literally anything he wants in marvel comics and it's retardedYou reminded me of my favorite "you'll buy it anyway, we don't have to make it make sense" writing from that era.Xavier commits death by Phoenix for some brainless reason, and later Wolverine of all people gets judgmental at Scott.Scott wonders how someone who still can't remember how many people he's killed even after regaining his memories has a leg to stand on.Logan, the best at what he does, casually brushes untold decades of visceral mass murder aside with "You killed the only one who mattered."
>>153649131Beast did quite a bit more than just kill him, regardless yeah wolverine gets off blameless again for his crimes in krakoa. Xavier created a heavily undergunned x-force because he didn't trust the idea with a field team of just logan, omega, and domino. Wolverine is given field team leader and beast chief intelligence officer as the two command position because they're supposed to be the two most morally trust worthy guys he has. They both of course proceed to betray him, not once does wolverine report on beast despite being directly involved in every thing that happens. He then straight up abandons his position right before the fucking hellfire gala. Then they have this literal traitor try to murder charles when he's a helpless prisoner, because of course that's what wolverine would do, despite his whole thing being unilaterally making the decision to kill people for the greater good.
>>153649349>Logan brushes off thousands of deathsYou mean the same guy who hunted down mercenaries because of a nun they raped five years ago goes "only Charles' death matters"?Yeah really a "you'll buy it anyway, we don't have to make it make sense" era
>>153649320At what opportunity? He just showed up, shot xavier and then fucked off.
Old /co/ unironically loved Dan Slott,
>>153645341X-Men ruins everything it crosses over withAs a concept it barely even functions properly in the shared Marvel universe alongside the other non X-Men related characters, there should be a separate X-Men universe really
>>153649390Thing is it wasn't murder, it was manslaughter at worst.Scott didn't drive his psychic flame decal hot rod to Xavier's place and run him over in his wheelchair, Xavier walked in front of it to call Scott's bluff and got Dark Phoenixed, knowing what's happened before.Scott wasn't even over the moon about it, and asked what Logan's point was in bringing up what he was there for. Logan just wanted to make sure he felt it.The spree killer had nothing better to do with his day than salt the wound of a personal loss between a father and son, subsequent events after this talk act like Logan has a full deck to morally lead the next generation of mutants.>>153649481I fucking hated Spider Island, no one will believe me now but I knew the path it was laying.
>>153649514avx was an x-men storyline, enlighten me on which big dumb avenger event the x-men ruined.
I've hated the Xmen ever since this panel. The writers make them come across as whiny bitches that think the whole world revolves around them and are constantly angry that normal people fear them, despite half of them being able to blow up the planet or end civilization as we know it whenever they want. Like Iceman can just wake up one morning and say "fuck it" and bring another ice age, killing billions before anyone can stop him. And the writers make you out to be the bad guy if you even consider "maybe we should have safety measures in place for mutants with that much power". They're always portrayed as the eternal victims and underdogs narratively, while also being wanked as God tier unbeatable mary sues with their ever increasing power levels. And they've had multiple chances to leave the earth, which they never do despite always crying about how oppressed they are. Everything past the Dark Phoenix saga was a mistake.
>>153650025This is the panel? The one where he's trying to recruit them for fucking civil war?
>>153650025>maybe we should have safety measures in place for mutantsthere's literally a gigantic sentinel on their lawn during this about 30 feet away btw.
>>153650071Yes, that panel. Tony was portrayed as being in the wrong, correctly so. The writer could have easily had Emma tell him to fuck off and that mutants had their own problems to deal with. But instead they brought Genosha into it, acting as if the Avengers were somehow to blame for so many dying, when it happened in a matter of minutes, and it was a mutant created problem in the first place. Hell Emma herself helped the hellfire club create sentinels, so she has no place to ever bring up Genosha to make a point, ever. This level of hypocrisy by Xmen writers, which will always make other characters act completely out of character and retcon things to make the Xmen look better, started with that panel.
>>153650120Yeah, those sentinels were piloted by humans and sent there to protect the remaining mutants after House of M decimated their remaining population (which was the fault of quicksilver and Magneto btw, I'm seeing a pattern where mutants are always the cause of their own demise). And they never abused their power or turned against the Xmen or the mutants, and in fact helped save mutants at times. In fact they all ended up dying to Cable/Sinister who killed the pilots and turned the Sentinels on the Xmen, but while the pilots were alive they never did anything but help mutants. Of course, Xfags will ignore this.
>>153649514I mean they ruined the Inhumans I guess but who cares about them anyway
>>153645341one reason that people tend to forget is that at the time the avengers slop was an all-time high in regards to popularity, so you had some tourists fresh off the mcuslop
>>153646070>Hope being trained by the Avengersyou fucking cunt, you fucking disingenuous cunt. karate kid bullshit is not a training. That's the problem that avengers slop was shitting all over the x-men narrative that was going for the better part of the decade, to shoehorn them into an event
>>153647646Cebulski is an x-fag, while the other two are known to be notorious anti x-fags. quesada started his tenure by cancelling nearly every x-book, sales be damned, and alonso did his best to dilute the brand and make inhumans happen. both were famous for "being proud of not reading x-books" (while at the same time being massive avengers homos). With a mindset like that it's obvious that x-fags were going to be bitter. It's a little like today, with brevoort, except brevoort tries to hide his power level, even if everyone knows he hates the x as well, and would prefer to be forever on FF or Avengers instead
>>153648702Get meds
>>153648972keep in mind that Avx had like what? 6 writers? each writing their own chapter. Guess which one hickman wrote? It should be easy to guess
>>153649222>beastslurcringe
>>153650578yeah i knownow imagine that for 7 years"BEASTFAG!""BEASTNIGGER!"that anon screeches at anyone who defends beast, not just me. they're unhinged
>>153650145I partially agree with you, it's just that genosha genocide was something of a humanitarian catastrophe, as it was a legitimate country, with Magneto (let's not forget) as its president. And the point was a little meta, that the x-men had to clean up the mess afterwards on their own without any help from the avengers. Still, it was a bullshit argument
>>153650430Plenty of people do, this patronising attitude is tiresome
>>153650589To be fair, beastfag is kinda punchable
How the hell did Cyclops think sparring MMA with Hope in his backyard was gonna help prepare her in any way to be the host of one of the most powerful entities in the Marvel multiverse? The Avengers were right to want to take control of her training, they have members who have dealt with higher level cosmic entities, multiversal threats and know a shitton about the Marvel cosmology like Thor, Captain Marvel, Scarlet Witch, Dr Strange and a few owners of the Enigma force in their roster. All of those would have been infinitely more helpful at training hope than any of the Xmen at the time.
>>153650610to be fair, writers are punchable and the reason this comes up. there is no reason to defend anything that is going on in x-men after 2014, and OP is saying after 2012
>>153650622>writers are punchabletotally agreed, but that goes without questionbeast was already a turncoat before 2012 with him joining Secret Avengers because he couldn't stand Cyclops and X-Force. And then, in Secret Avengers he did some missions where he had to kill and sacrifice people. I love marvel logic in regards to morality
>>153650612The training itself wasn't the problem, because it's not like it was the WHOLE training, rather, it was only a small part of it, that was written by bendis as if to show the mentality behind the x-men
>Dood, this comic that 2 trannies read and no one on the planet remembers is the reason why this century old 100 trillion industry went to shit
>>153650612Well, how in the flying fuck Hope cleaning the monastery was supposed to prepare her for phoenix either? Two can play the retarded gameAnd shall we forget>everyone ignores Rachel Summers
>>153650649Unironically yeah. Post AvX was the Brand New Marvel Now (or whatever) initiative that started the relaunch hell and lead us to today, when every series is a stealth-mini
I've never understood why people objected so much for the cyclops training hope scene. It's literally lifted directly from the krav maga style, and it's focused on being pragmatic and practical. You don't care about fighting fair, when you want to survive the odds. I guess that /co/ is truly antisemitic
>>153650596The Xmen bringing up Genosha to the Avengers feels contrived and forced the way the event was written. The mutant genocide literally happened in less than a minute in the story, millions die before the Xavier can even process what happened. The Xmen themselves couldn't help at all, they were completely blindsided by it and took hours to arrive so why would they ever expect the Avengers to have been able to react to it? Also, it's not like they even were shown helping dig out survivors or save whoever was alive afterwards, they just showed up, picked up Emma and left, then went to kill Cassandra Nova, then the story immediately moved on and none of them seemed that bothered by it. At the time I remembered thinking how dumb it was that so mutants just died and the story kinda brushes it under the rug for another plotline immediately. It was only retroactively that Genosha was made into a bigger deal than it was at the time, mostly so they can have another thing the Xmen can cry about.
>>153650688What I meant is AFTER the genocide - X-men were cleaning up the genosha by themselves. Still, I don't think readers blamed the avengers as there was this unspoken rule that each book was dealing with its own shit. AFAIR Avengers back then were fighting Kang and interestingly enough fought Sentinels as well. So one would ask, why the X-Men did not help the Avengers fighting off Sentinels too. I do hate when the writers go with such arguments because it makes X-fags look whiny, and it's not like they have a good reputation anyway
>>153650642>not wanting to participate when the leader has invited magneto, mass murderer, makes you a turncoat>conveniently forget that nightcrawler was going to confront cyclops and might have left too about uncanny x-force but conveniently died>then nightcrawler came back from the dead and everyone forgot about any moral issues in uncanny 600>beast took actions with other teams that were not unilateral, when other teammates knew what was happening. even captain america saw what happened and put his hand on beast's shoulder yet captain america is never maligned for his complicity. this is somehow comparable to rightclops as sole leader doing shit behind closed doors in secret.fuck the hell off
>>153650702Yeah and flush it all down the toilet when you kill people "because it had to be done", according to Captain America. Way to be consistentIt's hard not to notice that everything is okay, when Cap approves it.
>>153650718you're still not realizing how inconsistent marvel is specifically with beast, more than everyone else>beast leaves the avengers in the 80s because he is loyal to the x-menwho cares amirite?>beast wants to leave because cyclops has let magneto, the mass murderer jointraitor!>beast does not want to kill the phoenix force even though cap and wolverine doignored>nightcrawler also questions and implied he'd leave the x-men and was going to confront cyclops before nightcrawler diesdoesn't matter>beast does some fuck shit with the avengerscan only be a bad guy! context doesn't matter! don't talk about anyone else in secret avengers>beast isn't even the leader beast is the only bad one!>beast is willed a mind gem in illuminati. he didn't have a choice, just did his best and made the most moral desicionsdoesn't matter and singled out again>time travel to get O5 when he's dying anyway and other time travelers like bishop and cable exist>marvel is just trying to sell shitty O5 comicsbeast has to be the bad guy! >works with the inhumans to find a cure for something>goes to the x-men and tells them about some fuckshit because he is loyal to the x-men and wants to prevent a race warnope doesn't matter, he can only be a traitor even though he did the exact opposite of what a traitor does>krakoa, where he does the killing everyone else wanted him to do, that all the x-men agreed was okay in uncanny 600>actual villains and cassandra nova are welcomed>council literally had x-force to do dirty work so they'd have plausible deniability>sinister is presented as a goofy oaf villainyeah. you're retarded if you don't see the difference in contexts with the avengers or the blatant double standard x-writers have for this specific character
>>153646070I didn't read those issues, but one thing that pisses me off a lot is that they killed Blindfold. I had just read the legion series (X-men Legacy) and the ending was so good i started Way of X right after, just to find out they killed her off.
>>153645341>This is the pivotal moment where not only comics went to shitAnon marvel went to shit long before AvX. Even just Civil War by itself and its impact on marvel was 100x times worse than AvX.
>>153645341What? NoIt was a stupid event with stupid writing and the x-fans were especially retarded about it, but it was honestly a dry fart in the scheme of things. Other than Bendis getting to break up Emma and Scott as part of his years long scheme to undo everything Morrison had done, it's hard to remember even a single lasting effect in or out of universe.
>>153651692The hell is this aura?
>>153645341coolio AvX was running around the time I started reading comics. my arrival signaled the end times. I have become destroyer of worlds
>>153647550>X-23: Target-Xlaura bros they mentioned our-girl
>>153650025>"Muh Genosha" type of whataboutismX-Men Writters should be forced to read Bloodties and fuck off
>>153650214You can trace a lot of bad things come from Mutants>Hellfire Club caused Phoenix to become Dark Phoenix>Days of Future Past happens due to Mystique>Project Wideawake was funded by Hellfire Club, namely Sebastian Shaw>Mutant Massacre was caused by Marauders, Mutants under Sinister>Fall of the Mutants(X-Factor Side) had Appcalypse and his Horsemen wreck havoc in Manhathan>Inferno happened due to Sinister and Cameron Hodge making a deal with N'astrith>Genosha was destroyed by Cassandra Nova
>>153650667The Utopia that was promised to us 3000 years ago
>>153652756I think they've forgotten Genosha was an actual country and not just mutantland
>>153645341NOsecret war 2004, civil war 2006 and infinite crisis were worse.Also brian michael bendis and joe quesedas are the ones to blame.
>>153645341You guys are going to tell me I’m lying and fuck off but before this event /co/ was not racist and was the unquestioned best board on the site. You could have actual discussions and people were actually reading because storytiming on here was at its absolute peak. The X-men storytime thread that anon did of Chuck austens run was some of the most fun and funniest times I’ve seen on here.This board was literally pretty rad at a time.
What happened to the X-Men storytime threads that got posted every Wednesday?
>>153645341It was dogshit but at least graced this board with the splendor that was Muh Phoenix.
>>153653212Trolling is not allowed outside of /b/
>>153649481>Old /co/ unironically loved Dan SlottWhen he was using Squirrel Girl as a mouthpiece against X-TREEM dystopic comic books before he realized they sell well
>>153649516>Carol and Rogue facing awayNice touch
>>153650533>alonso did his best to dilute the brand and make inhumans happenHe was ordered to by Ike the Kike who was still furious they couldn't welsh on the Fox deal
>>153654260>Fucking Glob Herman?
>>153645341The main thing I remember of this comic is that the two sides came down to>Cyclops: Hope that Hope can make the Phoenix Force do...something with the Phoenix Force to make things betterand>Cap: Protect Hope and take her off of Planet Earth to keep the Phoenix Force from turning it into a smoldering heapThe fact that the two groups were fighting each other instead of working together told anyone that even remotely cared for either the X-men or the Avengers that the entire event was retarded and pointless and that it was going to basically ruin everyone that was dragged into this mess.That and pic related.
>>153649198It was good stuff
>>153654310that doesn't change the fact that alonso enjoyed every minute of it
