Instead they'll just relaunch

>let's make Comics even LESS like Manga! This will help!

>>153683608
DESU a lot of things aren't as profitable as they were a couple years ago. Remember the pandemic years and all forms of media experienced massive boosts in sales?

>>153683608
Just make new characters.

>>153683627
>let's make Comics even LESS like Manga! This will help!
You don't get how either industry works do you?

>>153683608
>is it the creatives fault for pushing out nothing but complete shit for decades
>no its the comic readers for not loving the yummy wummy taste of shit

>>153683627
Western Comics don't need an entire volume dedicated to charging up a laser, to then charge up more lasers in the next volume, until 50 volumes in the laser is fired and its slow and boring.

>>153683642
Sideways was cool
Sideways was a fan favorite
Sideways bombed with 13 issues tops and hasn't been seen in a major role since

>>153683651
I know most people who care about comics read runs based on who wrote it

>>153683662
qrd?

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>>153683660
It's the direct market you dumb fuck
It's the market where the tastes of a 40+ year old geriatric's opinions and money matter more than a sub 20 year old who probably just pirates
People who buy comics DO buy shit (granted a good percentage are just speculators)

>>153683664
>Sideways was a fan favorite
>Sideways bombed
These two things cannot be true at the same time.

>>153683662
with those sales apparently they do

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>>153683662
You sure about that?

>>153683627
marvel+dc comics have conditioned their audience to accept constant events and resets.
long running storylines will tank hard if they don’t have lightning-in-a-bottle writer+artists to keep the hype going.

>>153683759
Enjoy 20+ more years of Dan Slott, sucker

>>153683700
He was a fan favorite amongst younger readers who didn't (and possibly couldn't) buy comics but the people who actually used the direct market
He didn't bomb in the sense that his book only sold around 5k or below (which is where Imaeg books die), his last issue performed 9.6k which is yeah still bad and below cancellation (15k if we're feeling generous)

>>153683803
>He was a fan favorite amongst younger readers
In which country?
Being popular among foreign third world zoomers who can never (and likely will never) buy your product is pointless and if you try to build a character based around that it means that you're a complete fucking retard.

>>153683662
Anon fucking BONE has been outselling marvel and DC COMBINED for the last 10 years......
The comics have been running at a loss for the last 5, the only reason we even still get DC or Marvel comics is that every thing else extremely finically successful

>>153683662
If you are referencing dragon ball then you are retarded. The fights in DB have fantastic paneling and don't feel like a drag. Action in capeshit is extremely bland in comparison.

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>>153683803
I actually talked to Rocafort about this recently, turns out Sideways was the most popular new hero post-Metal. And DC genuinely liked the character. But Rocafort was casually talking about politics to someone he thought he could trust. Causing them to snitch on him, and DC self sabotaged the book just to spite him. So if you ever wonder why Sideways ended so abruptly, thats why.

>>153683854
As well it should, Bone is fucking amazing

>>153683842
>Being popular among foreign third world zoomers who can never (and likely will never) buy your product is pointless and if you try to build a character based around that it means that you're a complete fucking retard.
I'm aware of that
I was vocal in the RCO shutdown threads that people who think if people stopped pirating comics the industry would "collapse" are sorely mistaken and are huffing copium to justify piracy when really it should just end on it being an accessibility issue
My point is that yes, there are new characters
New characters fans genuinely like but the direct market and Marvel/DC's cancellation line number works in a way that goes against those new characters even having a chance of succeeding
I'm not saying we should pander to third worlders and by all means, the people who buy comics logically should have a stronger influence on the market than those who don't regardless of the legitimacy of their reasons for not being able to support titles on the shelves

For all the talk about emulating the Japanese model, have American publishers considered pivoting away from relying on ageing demographics in the form of older buyers and instead lowering overhead via printing on pulp paper while releasing stories in black and white to reduce costs further?

The goal should be trying to lure in younger readers with less disposable income, although I guess in the digital age, this also includes trying something akin to Mangaplus to offer audiences more at a lower price (since printing is not part of the cost).

>>153683900
>If you are referencing dragon ball then you are retarded
he's clearly a retarded tertiary who only knows memes about the anime most of that came from those long ass recaps

>>153684017
> instead lowering overhead via printing on pulp paper
A lot of kid comics DC made in the 2000's did that IIRC
>releasing stories in black and white to reduce costs further?
Marvel did that for some collections of their Silver Age catalog

>>153683627
>Manga invented writers being on books!
Fuck off.

>>153683697
Rape enabler.

>>153683608
The truth is that people aren’t buying Marvel and DC as much anymore. Comics in general aren’t as popular as they use to be. Even most indie comics are just movie/show pilots hoping to get picked up by Hollywood.

>>153683608
maybe they could do away with the decompression shit that soaks up 15 pages uselessl-holup COMICS WERE PROFITABLE?!?

>>153684706
>The truth is that people aren’t buying Marvel and DC as much anymore
What's your frame of reference?
10 years ago or 20?

>>153683608
>brand new series is announce
>new #1 and everything
>released with a few dozen variant covers for the first few issues
>collectors and other nerds grab up as many as they can get
>WOW [new series] IS SELLING GREAT!
>First issue actually isn't that good, but it's just setting up some shit for later, right?
>second issue is bad too
>third issue seems like it might finally be going somewhere.... No wait, it sucks too
>sales start dropping off
>remaining issues are just as bad, if not worse
>potential new readers aren't hearing any buzz, so they are less likely to pick up the comic in the middle of its run, let alone buying lots of back issues to catch up
>DC & Marvel decide that people don't want long creator runs, rather than realizing that they have a terminal shit writing problem

>>153683842
NTA but do you think DC doesnt sell their shit outside of the united states? Dont be retarded nigga

>>153683854
No one actually reads Bone, all those sakes are to scholastic book fairs where some kid buys it and never reads it and just reads Wimpy kid again or another I survived book.

>>153683608
Print is crashing down for years, even the Covid bump has disappeared at this point. Check out with manga, sales are down from the sales height during the pandemic. But at least they still had a robust digital market tho offset the loses.
Comics on the other hand keeps punching their own dick and groveling to LCS.

>>153685049
>Comics on the other hand keeps punching their own dick and groveling to LCS.
It is because they cannot survive outside of the current model

>>153683755
At least one third of those are not sales but copies in circulation. Shueisha has been inflating one piece sales for a while. They even reduced the initial print of Kimetsu no Yaiba last volume so it didn't dethrone a record from one piece. lmao

>>153685190
A third? In recent volumes it is nearing ⅔

>>153685190
>>153685256
Do you really think a company would do that? Just incur massive expenses to inflate some arbitrary number?

>>153683642
And fans can bitch about them making new characters

>>153684995
Bookscan list which >>153683854 is talking about is sales to customers, not retailers. It would cover sales from Book Fairs to customers, not sales to Book Fairs.

Don't make up shit when you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

>>153684706
>Comics in general aren’t as popular as they use to be
Why RCO had millions of views on many DC/Marvel series? If there wasn't really interest on them people obviously didn't even bother to pirate them.

>>153685276
Yes, infact they do that all of the time

>>153685325
Its a distribution issue, games used to have the same problem before Steam

>>153685325
>Why RCO had millions of views on many DC/Marvel series?
At least half (or slightly below) of the people who use RCO aren't even Americans and even then just being American doesn't guarantee you to an LCS
Digital sales are considered but very, VERY rarely do they ever make up for physical sales floundering for a series nor are they taken as seriously as orders made for LCS'

>>153683608
They admitted their only money is selling issue #1, and 25 to collectors and speculators. Has been that way since at least 2010.

>>153683662
But then again, they need SOMETHING, because what they are doing right now is not working.

>>153685276
>Do you think a company would do a dishonest thing
Anon, please. If you don't believe me go and ask to Shounen Jump thread in /a/.

>>153685371
I'm aware that a majority of the views are not potential customers. But the point is that a way to gauge popularity is the interest that generate between the public. So there is clearly interest on the comics.
Similar with manga, were a lot of people read it from free from Manga+ app, pirate it or just watch it on TikTok. That means, not a lot of potential costumers, yet people consider manga a relatively popular medium.

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>>153685442
I wasn't the guy you were talking to
I know this is very, VERY hard for /co/ to accept but comics are probably in a better state as an online fandom now than they were a decade ago (granted still with its problems)
It's been pointed out in previous threads but there are places livelier than /co/ is regarding comic discussion which has been lamented over and over and over and over again to be declining here
Manga's objectively more popular on a global (and domestic) scale though and I think the discussion correlating its synergy with anime helps bolster that
The manga industry isn't perfect and even within it there's discussion of concern but it's not like with direct market comics where it's been going on a decline with the same exact conversations repeated ad nauseam

I don't know if anything makes capeshitters more mad than being reminded anime exist.

>>153683662
>I read a friend of mine's interpretation of Dragonball ONCE!

>>153685316
Then where’s all the Bone discussion and references? Wimpy kid gets them. How is Bone selling so much and yet there never seems to be significant nostalgia for it?

>>153685656
Because DoAWK offers more to discuss and has more stuff coming out now than Bone
And even then people don't storytime or even discuss the new volumes of DoaWK which lends itself more to be easily parodied among the internet

>>153683660
Wrong take
>Is it our fault by not caring about creativity but maximum profit?
>no its the comic readers for not loving the yummy wummy taste of shit

>>153685556
How are Marvel's War Comics like The Nam? I'm familiar with DC stuff like GI Combat, War That Time Forgot(Dinosaur Island), and Boy Commandos, but haven't read much that Marvel ever did.

>>153685325
>Why RCO had millions of views on many DC/Marvel series?
Because they're free and easy to access.
Same reason AIslop on social media gets lots of views.
If people could not view them for free, they just wouldn't view them at all, especially the non-Americans who make up the majority of users on RCO.

>>153683642
>Just make new characters.
Why would I create a new character for Marvel or DC so they can pay me peanuts for the initial work, then turn around and make hundreds of millions of dollars on licensing an movies? Do you not understand that's why things have been stagnant as they've been the last two decades?

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>>153685886
This
If Invincible came out as a Marvel character he would've ended up like Gravity and not the money raker it eventually became for its creators
Of course, not EVERY book ends up like Invincible nor does every creator have connections like Kirkman but it's still more to own your character than to end up as a forgotten face awaiting to be potential event fodder

>>153685821
>especially the non-Americans who make up the majority of users on RCO.
Honestly I'd say it's half and half
You'd have to consider that not everyone across the globe necessarily understands English to even read these comics even if it's most widely used language so you're already limiting yourself to just those let alone the ones interested in western (specifically ones in English) comics to begin with

>>153683915
Dont believe this till he says t/at in an interview.

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>>153683662
Instead Western Comics need a prelude to an event, an entire event, and several tie-in to the event to help promote whatever power-up a character is going to get towards the end of the event.

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Don't care. As long as there will be CHADulk books, I will buy them.

>>153683662
Yeah I love events too

>>153685821
Here's the thing about RCO and its user base of ESL's
Where's the hidden gem the foreigners found that they appreciate more than us?
You know how Watamote is more popular in the West than it is in Japan and you can sort of accredit scanlation sites for that?
Or even how Japanese westaboos into comics like Hitman because someone translated it in their language?
I know piracy (and I guess official apps and certain reprints) can be credited for particular past runs of characters getting a new light of appreciation like Bronze Age Superman but I mean specifically something outside of IPs already popular because of non-comic media

>>153686079
And then all of it is ignored and the character never uses those powers again.

>>153685776
If they cared about maximum profit they wouldn't be producing garbage

>>153686130
Bruce Jones Hulk omnibus SOON

>>153685817
I only read one issue but thought it was pretty good
It was the one where one of the soldiers temporarily goes back to America and sees how much has changed

>>153683608

I'm still buying comics just not that gay shit they keep shilling, hell tomorrow ill have the final omnibus of ROM Space knight, and then maybe ill buy the rest of the marvel run of King Conan after, I haven't given a single cent to any marvel or dc comic book creator that makes the shit i see now

>>153683755
>Man of Steel folds to Man of Rubber.

>>153683651
Well only one of them works lmao

>>153683662
>people who cling to capeshit literally never branched out and thus literally have no clue about the alternatives
everything makes a lot more sense now

>>153685776
They are clearly not invested in profit maxxing or they'd be changing shit up in order to attract new readers to buy more stuff from them.

>>153683662
That's the anime, not the manga. And both still sold more than the current shit DC and Marvel are doing.

>>153687454
And the things that make manga thrive in Japan can't apply here in the states
We have a weaker printing industry, a less viable infrastructure to bolster a print industry, worse literacy rate, a heavily crippled animation industry, etc

>>153685886
>>153685939
This isn't really true anymore. Like the only ones that made big bucks with their comics are a select few. I don't think the creators of Spider-gwen are missing a lot of cash because even if the character is relatively popular it's not a big seller.
The reality is that artists on Image and creator owned comics are barely scrapping it to stay afloat.

>>153683608
So what would be the solution to this issue sell less inventory? I’m actually genuinely curious

>>153688203
Yeah but here's the thing, Spider-Gwen is an extension of Spider-Man
Gravity and Sideways are characters built completely without any connection with the wider Marvel/DC universe's cast
They're not meant to be someone else's supporting character
You don't really get that anymore aside from a few like Monkey Prince or that one Chinese Enby
Nobody is saying every creator owned comic is an Invincible tier investment but if someone has an idea for a superhero that has potentially ZERO necessary connection to the world building of Marvel and DC, no shit they're gonna want to keep that idea for themself just for the slimmest chance of it turning out big and not having to worry about the cancellation line being higher at Marvel/DC

>>153688678
hopefully the solution is the big 2 collapse

>>153685190
let's assume you're right and the numbers are grossly exaggerated and one piece only sold 200 million copies 200 copies divided by 114 volumes means thaz the average one piece manga sold 1.75 million copies
With superman there are around 2000 issues of superman comics out there so the avarage superman comic only sold 300k issues so even then One Piece outsold superman by a lot
One piece os also nowhere near as old as Superman is
Its a relatively new series so the fact that ots even compared to Superman the one fo the biggest western comics in sales just makes comics look bad by comparison

>>153685556
Idk about you guys but i have been enjoying reading comics right now way more than 10 years ago, especially with absolute it feels like theres something i actually want to read now

>>153683662
Anime adaptation of shonen manga loke Dragonball have dogshit pacing i give you that but the actual Manga is rather fast paced especially Dragonball
The reason they are so slow is because they are animated and aired at the same time as the Manga is published so they cant moce to fast or elae they reach the point where there past the Manga plot anf have to invent some filler nonsense to pass the time

>>153685886
While its true you dont get rights to the character i think its very silly to pretend if a guy doesnt make a beloved character right now he suddenly just wont have any other chances and is binded to marvel and dc forever, even more considering that writers and artists names are basically plastered around in comic books pages and covers.

Almost every writer and artist that is midly successful now turns into McFarlane, we are way past the age of just crediting Stan Lee for everything.

>>153689361
Honestly?
Yeah, capeshit is better now than it was a decade ago (at least for DC, Marvel's still pretty rough and directionless)
For as much as people would want to complain about politics or whatever, that was so much more annoying a decade ago when you had more traditional novelists outside of comics being handed characters to try and attract a broader audience
Good in theory?
Sure
In practice?
There's a reason only Rowell stayed

>>153689361
What are you reading these days?
I'm honestly out of the loop because there's just very little interesting out right now for me, as someone who doesn't read capeshit.

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>>153684017
>lure in young readers
>Black and white
I don't to me this looks like a terrible idea
As a kid i never read any of the Big Superhero comics i grew up on Duck Storys and Asterix and i always liked how colourful they where
picrel is a good page of what im talking about
The little Details like the Black eyes on the Romans and There blodied noses are something that's fun to look out for when reading and nice detail that you only notic on your second or third time reading but add so much to the scene
I dont think this page would work on Black and White

>>153689595
Well specifically talking about Absolute, Abs Batman, Abs Wonder Woman and Abs Martian Manhunter (especially this one) are really fucking good. Im also reading some old shit like The Maxx, Invincible (yes that is classified as old now) and the first Spawn comics.

Sadly Marvel doesnt have much that interests me rn but idk maybe that new horror universe they are doing can be interesting if they don't fuck it up like they did with the new Ultimates.

>>153689758
I also hear some good things about the infernal Hulk ongoing and it looks like the type of shit i like so idk maybe i will pick it up eventually

He clarified that he meant long arcs not runs btw

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>>153689758
>maybe that new horror universe they are doing can be interesting if they don't fuck it up like they did with the new Ultimates.
They'll fuck it up. They already fucked it up because it doesn't revolve around their Midnight Sons/supernatural heroes like Blade, Morbius, Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Damon Hellstrom, Brother Voodoo, Simon Garth/The Zombie, Werewolf by Night, Tomb of Dracula, etc.

>>153683608
Kek, see you later jewperheroes

>>153688678
Maybe stop pissing off fans so they don't feel their loyalty is only rewarded with barely concealed contempt? Stop pissing off good writers and artists too.
In general, have your buddies re-evaluate the slump over the past 15+ years Scott and just STOP

>>153690035
>They'll fuck it up. They already fucked it up because it doesn't revolve around their Midnight Sons/supernatural heroes like Blade, Morbius, Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Damon Hellstrom, Brother Voodoo, Simon Garth/The Zombie, Werewolf by Night, Tomb of Dracula, etc.
I think one of the writers explained that'd be redundant are already horror themed to begin with and wouldn't really change as much as say, putting them under a fantasy lens
He argued that the preferable solution is to make these characters have an actual presence in 616

>>153690035
Why would they do an absolute-horror AU with characters that are already in the horror-style tho

>>153690017
That sounds good though

>>153683608
reminder that cost curves have always existed but comic book cost curves are particularly weird because of decisions EICs took 40 years ago and every year since

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>>153683608
>Scott Synder
>Poster Boy for everything wrong with modern comics by infusing them with 90's bullshit
>Surprised that nobody is buying what he's selling

>>153690794
how so professor

>>153691107
Absolute Batman is stupidly successful

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Hahaha
While the westcucks die
The rising sun laughs
Total J/a/panese victory!

>>153691427
Read the thread
He meant arcs not runs

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>>153691137
Hahaha
No

>>153683697
No, Anon. Manga maintains and/or exceeds American comics all time high sales figures in the American market using the same direct market. It's not due to Manga storytelling being objectively better than capes, but it is because American comics are just trash written by jewish nepo hires that are primarily concerned with spiteful demoralization and social engineering while manga just had genuine artists trying to make stories people will like. It's one of the most cut and dry examples available and if Japan or any other country had the ability to make movies/tv does with White, English speaking actors the effect would be the same in those industries.

Ignore the west vs east cuck

>>153691538
>same direct market
>same
Do you even know what the direct market even is?
Barnes and Nobles and other traditional book stores aren't the direct market you fucking idiot
Good lord you're stupid

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Everything stays the same, yet everything changes. In some ways, new creative teams did change things and take stuff in wild directions but editorial or "house style" could rein it in a bit. Eventually we reached the anger sells period, the post-90s crash's desperate attempt at relevance, the fuck you long term readers (pic related). And it worked in the 2000s, people tuned in to every big event, every Brand New Day, every Bendis book, that stuff sold and people seethed. Then in the 2010s it all went to shit because the apathy DID catch up with people, the forced diversity, the terrible "fuck you's" to the audience and people did decide enough was enough.

Dan Slott recently went on a podcast saying they get given 5 issues, if that. He knows the 1st issue will sell because the shops will order it. But he was practically begging people to get those 2s and 3s. 5 issues. And we know, from the 2000s onwards, the decompression of stories is pretty bad. What the hell do you even get in 5 issues? Nothing. Barely an arc.

What do they have left? Marvel built temporary hype with Hickman's Ultimate Spider-Man that disappeared overnight. DC are more successful with their Absolute line but it is all the same stuff. The gimmicks stick around, alternative universes, events, the variant covers and other things. Then we have their artificially inflated gimmick characters, Gwen-Pool, Spider-Gwen, Punchline and an array of "built for cosplayers/social media" characters who can shift a few variant covers but have poor overall sales. Maybe you have a "hit" like Immortal Hulk, another big changing things for the sake of changing things that does speak to a bunch of people. I recently looked into some post-Krakoa X-Men to see what was what. Tom Brevoort is head of those books. Dogshit storytelling,crossovers/events and art. Some character had been teased like two years ago in a crossover, Inmate X, that turned out to be some boring OC. But it'll keep chugging along I guess.

>Anyway I wanted to jump over I’ll talk a little bit about cliffhangers for a moment and then I’ll let you go. So right now part of my job at DC is, along with Joshua Williamson, to read and help advise or guide or seek out pitches for new books, especially for Next Level, which is still ongoing all the way through 2027. So there’s a lot of books we haven’t announced yet, I’m very excited for you guys to see. And I also have to read the first issues to help with the initial launch chapters of the story. So one of the things that I feel is the most common note that we give is that the ending needs to be stronger. I feel like it’s that and to make it new reader-friendly, which I did a class on last time. I don’t know if it’s a byproduct of streaming or if it’s an era of comics that’s gone, like eight or nine years ago, when there was really more of a predilection for these long, long runs where a story in a plot would go for a very, very long time. But the economics of comics right now, although a lot of things are overperforming and there’s a lot of new readership and a lot of excitement, really aren’t supporting very long, slow burn runs in any kind of profitable way.

>>153685276
Misreporting resales as sales has no bearing on the financial reality of seconds hands sales having occurred.
You can say whatever you want as long as you clear the wording with Legal.
t. Senior business analyst that works with the marketing retards from time to time

>>153683608
>Because they're not as profitable.
this is a problem in literally every industry these days and i assume its why so many companies want to charge subscriptions instead of one time payments up front. it sucks i hate it

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>>153689758
>Sadly Marvel doesnt have much that interests me rn but idk maybe that new horror universe they are doing can be interesting if they don't fuck it up like they did with the new Ultimates.
There is not a single chance in hell this doesn't bomb horribly. Nobody fucking wants this and it'll probably just be edgy bullshit.

>>153693562
Im ok with edgy bullshit if its fun and decently written

>>153686130
Those shits are getting canceled too.

>>153690017
What is if with Popverse and misleading headlines these days?
First the Kirkman shit, now this?

>>153696080
Some people are believing that Popverse is tight with Marvel in light of some recent articles

>>153683608
Short stories, long stories. Short runs, long runs. Does length even matter if your comics aren't readable because of how gay and woke they are?

>>153696642
You being illiterate doesn’t make things gay.

>>153683608
Have they tried writing better? Makw stories that are good. That's a decent start.

>>153690116
The same reason you'd make Punisher MAX even though Punisher is already a gritty antihero. But Marvel already tried red band which only featured a few pages of mild gore and censored all the cuss words.

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Marvel and DC long runs are stupid because they're not actually epics (like manga) they're just short stories that span one to ten issues before there's a new story.

If you're going to write short stories it's just better to publish them as such. More Batman: Hush and less Batman #863 isn't a bad thing.

It’s hilarious you people pretend you would read comics if x, y and z didn’t exist when we all know you would just find other stupid shit to bitch about and still refuse to read comics

>>153696747
This

>>153696716
Anon if you want these characters to come back you can just say that, however it doesnt take much genius to understand why they are first choosing spiderman and the fantastic four to do a take in a new alternative universe

>>153696676
What does that even mean? Comics are gay as fuck and that's why they aren't selling well, leading to shorter runs

>>153696747
Naw if they weren't so woke and gay more people would stay invested in comics. We'll never know though because the industry won't try to make normal shit anymore

>>153684903
>NTA but do you think DC doesnt sell their shit outside of the united states? Dont be retarded nigga
They have to rely on other publishers like Panini to distribute to said other countries/languages and even then foreign sales are meaningless for a product that relies entirely on domestic sales

>>153696747
But I read plenty of comics

>>153696738
The # is there for collecting purposes.

>>153691624
Do you think that LCS don't sell manga and that cape comics aren't sold at Barnes & Noble? Every place that sells one sells another there is no venue in the U.S.A. that sells manga but doesn't sell cape comics except maybe niche hole in the walls that primarily sell figurines

i have an idea
how about putting out more than 20 pages a month if you want shit decompressed

>>153697397
Except manga's overwhelming success is found at traditional book stores and not the direct market you dense fuck
Manga's sales aren't from people using direct market styled "pulls"
Yes a lot of LCS' stock manga these days but it's a side offer compare to their bulk stock being non-tankobon books

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>>153686163
Because that is trendy and people like to buy stuff to virtual signaling. Thats how social media, youtube, webcomics and independent comics work. I guess without this trend chasing they would tank even more.

>>153687516
They are, just are gambling on trend chasing. Try to stay hip with the young crowd. Because they do dumb short term decisions dont forget how they increased their #1, relaunchs and event stuff. Trying to pander to the woke crowd is just one thing under many.

>>153696802
Anon, comics are printed paper. They don’t have sexuality. They don’t want to suck your dick or lick your asshole.

>>153687516
Every time they do something different and try to attract new readers fucks like you have a meltdown and spend months whining about it. Because comic book readers are some of the most entitled, selfish and whiny man-cunts on the planet.

>>153696747
I mean, I still read comics, just not American comics, so that's clearly not true.

>>153683608
>because comic readers aren't supporting them as much anymore
Remember, consumers. It is your fault.

>>153698257
I mean if consumers hold all the power then they should bare the responsibility, right. Like that spiderman dad said, with great power comes something something.

>>153685049
There was no covid bump for comics.
Comics were basically the only entertainment medium that didn't get a covid bump.
Diamond halted all distribution during the pandemic and them promptly went bankrupt.

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>>153691624
Capeshit underperforms in comparison to manga even in grocery stores and hobbyist shops. DC and Marvel should try the manga-zine format of where multiple stories are running weekly in the same "general capeshit" magazine and its the readers who get to vote which series stays and which doesn't. That way capeshit goes through the natural selection process of consumer preferences, which results in better comics aimed at target audiences. Of course modern DC and Marvel leadership would refuse to do that because a lot of their little nepotism fuckbuddies in their offices would get fired a week after they decided to pitch yet another pregnant joker or gay kiss Spider-Man run.

Metal Hurlant/Heavy Metal had a slightly different format where they advertised certain running comics or upcoming albums with story snippets but the readers didn't have a voting system for which features continued in the magazine and which didn't.

>>153699370
>even in grocery stores and hobbyist shops.
Then why do LCS' still stock mostly western comics?
If your evidence is one pic and not concrete statistics from a fucking twitter post over one LCS that had to shut down, your basing your argument off jack shit.
Manga fans don't primarily buy through LCS' let alone actually bother with the direct market to set a pull list for manga
>try the manga-zine format of where multiple stories are running weekly in the same "general capeshit" magazine and its the readers who get to vote which series stays and which doesn't
Manga thrives with that format because of specific factors to Japan
A healthier print market, infrastructure that makes the availability of the magazine near ubiquitous, etc
Have you actually held a weekly manga magazine?
They have to use the cheapest paper possible to keep the cost low, they're products specifically designed not to last

>>153699416
People also tend to treat the magazines as disposable and just leave them in the subway or throw them out after reading them.

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>>153699416
>Manga thrives with that format because of specific factors to Japan
>A healthier print market, infrastructure that makes the availability of the magazine near ubiquitous, etc
And why is it healthy? Because of the zine format made the format explode in popularity. You're mixing the egg and the chicken. LCS still stock western comics because of the capeshit IP, the superhero comics themselves have become a tertiary format for capeshit and the real money is in the movies or the toy-lines.
>Have you actually held a weekly manga magazine?
>They have to use the cheapest paper possible to keep the cost low, they're products specifically designed not to last
Thats because the collectors edition are the manga volumes that condense and gather the magazine story arcs into thick books.

Comic reading and weekly magazines are not unique to Japan. Donald Duck comics in Europe regularly outsell the most successful Spider-Man or Batman comic in the US. Compared to Japan and Europe the comic book industry in US is a tiny niche. So obviously US should take lessons from how Japan, France or Belgium sells comics.

>>153699539
>And why is it healthy? Because of the zine format made the format explode in popularity.
They literally tried bringing a monthly magazine format of Shonen Jump to the states and it failed
The United States isn't a viable country for a weekly manga magazine to thrive

>>153699539
>And why is it healthy?

Because everyone from kids to grandparents largely use mass transit to go to work/school/home/etc. and reading disposable comics is one of the common ways to kill time as you travel back and forth. That creates the perfect infrastructure for reading and why there’s always something readable being sold at station shops

>>153699593
And isn't that already shifting to digital anyways?

>>153699416
>Have you actually held a weekly manga magazine?
How about monthly magazines like comic Nora?

>>153687895
And even then there's no real reason to read most superhero comics.
You read one run, enjoy it, then the next writer of next year undoes what that run did and turns the characters personality completely around. Batman has learned the value of team work 15 times, spider-man gets cuked for a 6th time, superman punched an omega god again and next month a random alien is going to knock him out in one kick.
Tom King's wonde woman is the best example. It's shit, it feels nothing like previous classic runs as is done by a man with a mommy complex. How many times has the multiverse been in danger in the last decade.
People wou,would, enjoy long runs if the companies would actually do them without massive crossovers and with more books. An entire year to tell a 12 issue story. With manga I can get 52 chapters in that time

>>153699642
>With manga I can get 52 chapters in that time
You're not actually part of the system that keeps manga alive to begin with

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>>153699582
>They literally tried bringing a monthly magazine format of Shonen Jump to the states and it failed
Because they didn't bring the format in 100%, they got lazy and removed the features that made it work. American readers couldn't get to vote which manga would be discontinued anyway if the US version would just post the same manga the japanese version did.
>>153699593
Japs don't just read disposable comics but disposable magazines and leaflets in general. Every hobbyist magazine from gardening to soccer has their own running manga. Most mangakas confess their first experience creating comics was in their school manga club that made a manga section for the schools own magazine.

>>153699593
>use mass transit
Do areas in the rest of the world where mass transit is a thing also benefit from a booming comic culture?

>>153699593
>>153699539
You 2 always forget to mention another big player: the doujin culture/conventions. Even though they don't make a lot of money they are important at promoting manga culture and artists in general. Some people start there and then get insanely huge. Not a manga example but R07 started selling Higurashi at a doujin convention, hell there were even anime made there.

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>>153699582
>They literally tried bringing a monthly magazine format of Shonen Jump to the states
Did they? Or did they just release a shitty low-effort copy of the magazine?

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>>153699779
It is a big player but its not the only player. Theres also a culture of indie manga magazines where a bunch of artists get together and publish a mag of their own. Shintaro Kago used to run a magazine like that and he hand-crafted little keychains of dead bloated corposes of pregnant women as a bonus inside the mag.
Japs really love their magazines.

>>153699688
>American readers couldn't get to vote which manga would be discontinued anyway if the US version would just post the same manga the japanese version did.
Golly gee Anon
Wanna know what'd be swell?
An artist experiencing through worse crunch than usual to work on a weekly magazine that nobody is sure to even work in a country with a failing literacy rate, abhorrent print market, and infrastructure that isn't like Japan's at all
Boy oh boy imagine the line of people willing to work on that

>>153699539
>>153699688
This conversation began with an Anon claiming manga does better than comics at the direct market and there's no concrete proof of it because said Anon was an idiot who thought the direct market meant traditional bookstores
Stop trying to change the subject to something entirely different

>>153699819
>Japs really love their magazines
The United States too, but they died after WW2.

Weird Tales is full of good to great stories.

>>153699820
>that nobody is sure to even work in a country with a failing literacy rate, abhorrent print market, and infrastructure
>"Its the customer who is wrong for not liking Pregnant Joker and faggot Superman!"
>>153699852
>Anon claiming manga does better than comics at the direct market and there's no concrete proof of it

https://comicbook.com/comics/news/dc-boss-admits-manga-is-better-than-american-comics-what-the-big-two-can-learn-from-it/

>Manga has held the top spots on the sales charts for years now, with massive manga sections popping up in books stores across the nation. It’s been a massive success story since 2014, when manga sales started going up with no end in sight, and has become something of a pop culture phenomenon in the United States. Manga is everywhere and American superhero comics, despite the in-roads made into pop culture by the MCU, haven’t been able to compete.

Manga tops US sales over capeshit every year, the fuck are you coping?

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>>153699852
Lets not take lessons from our successful competitors, lets just repeat our mistakes because our brand is kept alive by toys and movies.

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>>153683662
When Frieza said the infamous "This planet will blow up in five minutes", it was several episodes - but it was constant excitement during those episodes.

In fact, it was exciting enough to be universally agreed that it is the best most impactful fight in all of anime.

>>153699819
>and he hand-crafted little keychains of dead bloated corposes of pregnant women as a bonus inside the mag.
God I love this kind of weirdo autism.

>>153699902
>Its the customer who is wrong for not liking Pregnant Joker and faggot Superman
Americans don't like reading
When you publish a book in the States you're at an inherent disadvantage compared to a place like Japan due to how the hobby of reading is perceived differently across both countries
>Manga tops US sales over capeshit every year, the fuck are you coping?
Yes it tops capeshit in the bookscan market not the direct market you dense fucking idiot

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>>153683608
>decide to pick up Absolute series since it's a new start
>really enjoying it
>reach Wonder Woman #
>completely different story than the previous issue
>apparently there was some kind of event with the other Absolute comics than I wasnt aware of and supposed to read

Make it make sense!
is that so fucking hard?

>>153699929
Viz translates already completed material whose longevity is dependent not on us but on its native country
A country whose comics aren't dependent on an outdated system after an industry crash but also a system viable only to them and has STILL been shifting to digital

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>>153699954
>Americans don't like reading
They like reading manga though for some reason. Manga is selling well in the US.
>Yes it tops capeshit in the bookscan market
Lmao what a worthless cope. "Well these sales don't actually count because I decided so! DC and Marvel don't want bookscan market money anyway!"
>>153699972
>Viz translates already completed material whose longevity is dependent not on us but on its native country
That doesn't affect the viability of the US sales. While japanese market doesn't directly make manga for the US market, that doesn't bother the US audience who buys them anyway.
>A country whose comics aren't dependent on an outdated system
And there is the crux of the capeshit comic problem. The system needs a change but the Big Two are reluctant to do it because their comic book department is less about making products for readers and more about having cozy nepo-baby jobs while coasting along the success of other superhero brand products. For a brand that began as comic books its a fucking shameful policy, they should always strive to be the first format.

>>153700041
>While japanese market doesn't directly make manga for the US market, that doesn't bother the US audience who buys them anyway.
The US audience isn't the ones buying the actual weekly/monthly magazine
>Lmao what a worthless cope.
This conversation literally began with a guy who thought the direct market and bookscan market were the same thing.
OFC Marvel and DC want to sell more in the bookscan market
That wasn't the point
The thing that keeps a monthly ongoing series alive in the states is the direct market and the direct market is FUCKED through an outdated distribution system that manga doesn't have because manga is serialized in another country
>They like reading manga though for some reason. Manga is selling well in the US.
True but the material is already printed and manga is advertised by anime.
Trying to force a system that works in Japan to create entirely original works with zero regard to differing infrastructure, markets, etc is gonna get you a round hole, square peg situation.

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>>153700098
>The US audience isn't the ones buying the actual weekly/monthly magazine
Because they don't have such a magazine. Theres a market opportunity for DC and Marvel right there. Easy money.
>This conversation literally began with a guy who thought the direct market and bookscan market were the same thing.
Nobody ever said that except the strawman in your head. Sale is a sale, money is money.
>The direct market is FUCKED through an outdated distribution system that manga doesn't have because manga is serialized in another country
And you completely missed the point that generally manga is of higher quality precisely because it goes through the vetting system of consumers themselves. DC and Marvel comics in comparison can have long lasting extremely shitty runs as long as its run by one of the industry brown-nosers. Because competition in manga magazines are brutal, creators are mainly interested in creating a product that people actually want to read. DC and Marvel don't have that same mentality, they don't make their comics with readers in mind.
If readers would get to vote for the survival of DC and Marvel runs, then the quality issues would be fixed extremely quickly. Webcomics already have this format as well.
>True but the material is already printed and manga is advertised by anime.
In Japan its reverse. Anime doesn't get a greenlight unless the IP has been successful in manga- or book market first. Animation is risky and expensive so that is why only already commercially proven series get anime adaptations.
>Trying to force a system that works in Japan to create entirely original works with zero regard to differing infrastructure, markets, etc is gonna get you a round hole, square peg situation.
The basic concept is very simple where the customers decide what they want to read. Its extremely easy to adapt. DC and Marvel simply refuse to.

>>153700286
>Because they don't have such a magazine.
And what makes you think this magazine would work in the States when the factors that make it thrive in Japan aren't here?
>Nobody ever said that except the strawman in your head.
See >>153691538
>same direct market
He called them the same market
>If readers would get to vote for the survival of DC and Marvel runs, then the quality issues would be fixed extremely quickly
What makes it functionally different compared to a series getting canned due to sales?
The consumer doesn't always pick quality
Ultimate Wolverine is the worst Ultimate book and it still outsold most of the other titles in the line
>In Japan its reverse. Anime doesn't get a greenlight unless the IP has been successful in manga- or book market first
It's still one of the biggest reasons why manga became so popular in the West

Just get some decent writers and editors who say no to bad ideas and know the canon.

>>153700373
>when the factors that make it thrive in Japan aren't here?
What factors exactly? Put a cheap price tag on the magazine and sell it in hobbyist Warhammer shops, maybe even grocery stores.
>He called them the same market
Because it is. Again Viz media grossly outperforms DC and Marvel even in print like the charts posted here show. Whether its digital or something going to the bookshelves, manga in US dominates.
>What makes it functionally different compared to a series getting canned due to sales?
Highly unpopular series get canned within 2 weeks, letting unpopular shit run to the end of the series is an obvious money sink.
>The consumer doesn't always pick quality
Consumer is always right if you wish to have a successful company. If you want to make your artsy lesbian literature for your audience of californian tranny friends you're free to do so, but then don't act surprised if your shitty comic doesn't sell.
>Ultimate Wolverine is the worst Ultimate book and it still outsold most of the other titles in the line
Because it rode on the brand of Wolverine and general violence on the pages. Capeshit is not exactly Shakespeare its fast-food literature.
>It's still one of the biggest reasons why manga became so popular in the West
Thats because anime was imported earlier than mangas. Mangas got official western imports only well after the anime boom was in full swing. Back in the 90's you got to read Akira and maybe Hiroshima Boy in the library and that was pretty much it.

>>153700658
>What factors exactly?
A viable infrastructure
A better literacy rate
A healthier print industry period
>Whether its digital or something going to the bookshelves,
Traditional bookstores like Barnes and Nobles aren't the direct market
The charts people use like ICV2 explicitly keep those separate from the actual direct market

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>>153700773
>A viable infastructure
That comes naturally when the format proves to be successful. You don't need massive infastructure for test runs.
>A better literacy rate
"Its the customers who are wrong!"-cope. Burgers being illiterate doesn't affect manga sales.
>A healthier print industry period
So in order to make changes that would make the industry healthier, it needs to be healthy first. Its like saying in order to heal a sickness, you first have to be perfectly healthy.
>Traditional bookstores like Barnes and Nobles aren't the direct market
None of that fucking matters. Traditional bookshops can be a sign of success but not the ones dictating success. European supermarkets sell comic books all the time but the comic sales are not entirely reliant on grocery store shelves.

>>153700813
>You don't need massive infastructure for test runs
When you don't have the same commuter based infrastructure that makes manga magazines viable in Japan, that's gonna be a problem
>So in order to make changes that would make the industry healthier, it needs to be healthy first. Its like saying in order to heal a sickness, you first have to be perfectly healthy.
This shit goes beyond comics
Japanese newspaper industry does better than Stateside equivalents
>None of that fucking matters. Traditional bookshops can be a sign of success but not the ones dictating success
That's not the point
The point was that traditional bookstores aren't the direct market and the direct market is something accused of comics back and that Anon was an idiot for thinking traditional bookstores are the direct market

>>153700947
>When you don't have the same commuter based infrastructure that makes manga magazines viable in Japan,
Yet manga sells fine in the US despite the lack of commutes, so thats yet another cope.
>This shit goes beyond comics
Yet doesn't affect manga sales in the US. Curious. Intentionally keeping capeshit as shitty as possible certainly won't help the issue of americans being wary of reading comic books.

>>153701027
>Yet manga sells fine in the US despite the lack of commutes, so thats yet another cope.
There's a fundamental difference between selling a tankobon with a multiple chapters released every few months and a hodge podge of single chapters every week

>>153701027
Some manga sells well. It’s very selective what sells and what fails to gain any traction. And surprise surprise it’s usually shitty shounen that sells well while all the “genre diversity” titles that fail or don’t ever get published in English

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>>153700773
>>153700813
>>153700947
>>153701027
not either of these anons, but
It's really simple.
The comics they're making are shit.
It's not about the paper quality, or the price, or the distribution strategy, or the trains, or the literacy rates.
These are all insignificant variables next to the simple fact that the comics are shit and nobody wants to buy them.

This is Absolute Wonder Woman, one of the current top sellers. Do you seriously think anyone is reading this? This is hot garbage.

>>153701109
What’s supposed to be so horribly wrong with AWW?

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>>153701232
It's just shit, that's all that needs to be said, and you're bullshitting yourself if you try to deny the fact that it's obvious to everyone.

Take Absolute Wonder Woman and Kagurabachi to a highschool, place them both on the table and let people freely take their pick. Everyone has to pick one or the other. What do you think people are going to pick?

You could repeat this in 1000 schools and it would always be the same. Nobody is ever going to pick Wonder Woman.

>>153701347
Is the thing in pic related supposed to be your proposition of something better than Absolute Wonder Woman?

>>153701413
yes

>>153701429
You could have atleast picked a good manga for your bait

>>153701443
It's not bait, and I don't even need to pick a particularly good manga. Absolute Wonder Woman is just that shit.

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>>153701062
>There's a fundamental difference between selling a tankobon with a multiple chapters released every few months and a hodge podge of single chapters every week
Shonen magazines are weekly releases, not monthly. Somehow the artists still manage.
>>153701064
>Some manga sells well. It’s very selective what sells and what fails to gain any traction.
So its working as intended, whats the issue? It still creates better quality stories overall and brings more readers. If you want to make a business out of media entertainment then you have to have a planned demographic in mind when you're designing your product. Its the creators job to convince people to read your stories, its not the customers job to give you money and attention.

>>153697426
They have no excuse

This is the West vs. East shitstirrer, stop responding to him you dumbfucks hes just trolling
>>153701459
(You)
>>153699970
Please don't insult your intelligence. If you cannot comprehend by context given what might have happened in a tie-in of a fucking comic book about spandex men fighting crime please give up on reading altogether.

>>153701462
>Somehow the artists still manage.
1. They have assistants
2. They still get lifelong health problems

>>153683662
>Western Comics don't need an entire volume dedicated to charging up a laser
Western comics be like
>Panel 1, superhero spots some goons
>Panel 2, superhero is jumping down to the goons who are looking up in shock
>Panel 3, superhero is running off and the goons are lying in crumpled heaps

>>153701508
>1.They have assistants
Yes, who later on get manga runs of their own. Basic Master-Apprentice education style, whats the issue?
>2.They still get lifelong health problems
No they don't, you're mixing the problems of the manga and anime industry together.

>>153701537
Nah capeshit goes like this:
>6 panels of awkward joke where lazy creator copypastes the same drawing 6 times over.
>A fight scene thats just a two-page spread of superheroes posing like they're punching each other, while they're talking 10+ speech bubbles on the pages.

>>153683755
humanity has fallen

>>153701347
Nobody is going to take Kagurabachi either. Maybe if you used JJK instead your example would be more sound.

>>153683662
You really broke them with this post

>>153701064
Wrong Berserk, Vagabond and others sell a lot.

>>153701684
Has stayed the same more likely, since neither of them is particularly better really.

>>153701413
Nta but what about Kingdom which is still topping the manga charts? It's better than wonder woman that's for sure.

>>153701787
Havent seen this thing before to know if its better than AWW, not that AWW is some unbeatable masterpiece, i just thought it was funny he was propping some mid-barrel manga against Absolute Wonder Woman because he has some kind of weird vendetta against it (when its a good comic and a good reimagination of the character.)

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>>153701573
>No they don't, you're mixing the problems of the manga and anime industry together.

>>153702295
>some ancient black and white photo
Yeah, and because of this, Japan developed a reputation for poor working conditions and changed as a result. Now people work 9-5 and it's a scandal if they don't

>>153701988
>Havent seen this thing before
It's one of the most popular historic manga.

>>153702438
Isn't Togashi literally dying?

>>153703094
Yes, and that's why he barely works. Shueisha doesn't want to deal with the reputational damage of such a scandal if he dies so they don't overwork him.