Does Sandman deserve another chance to redeem himself?
>>153689847Ignoring the Black Cat book, I was under the impression that he was mostly redeemed again.
>>153689847He was brainwashed, no redemption necessary.
In a meta sense, Sandman's design does not "pop" enough to really be a big hero character. The simplistic look screams villain. Though I think Marco has a lot of potential as a character that Marvel writers haven't breached yet.
>>153690868He could always give himself a new look
>>153689847Definitely and I think it should utilise Silver Sable since they used to have a lot of character history and even snogged.
If Marvel is willing to redeem Norman Osborn of all characters, I don’t see why Sandman can’t get a second chance.
>>153691529It's a cruel joke that Norman Osborn gets to run around playing good guy while Harry Osborn and Herman Schultz are in the grave
>>153691378Yeah, like his Frightful Four design!
>>153692070Looks like a botched take on Ock
>>153689847I'd like him to. I'd like him to very much.
>>153691529>If Marvel is willing to redeem Norman Osborn of all charactersHe's as innocent as a newborn compared with some of the X-Men villains they allow to play hero, or the times Thanos has been allowed to have an antihero phase.>>153691563I don't want Shocker or Norman's kids to be dead either, but Good Norman is the only interesting thing going on in 2020s Spider-Man comics, it's sad that too many fans won't let themselves enjoy it, and act like Norman has personally wronged them or something.
>>153689847Yes, it was weird how writers decided to make him a villain again.
>>153689847sure why not
>>153693282It happened at a really bad timeFirst you have Byrne making a bad decisionThen you have Quesada taking over which meant he and his bosses wanted "evergreen" characters and didn't care about story/character development and Zeb Wells subsequently wrote the post-Byrne Sandman stories
>>153692120He can drink?
>>153696845Why couldn't he?
>>153696866I thought he was weak to liquids
>>153696881In massive volumes. You're weak to liquid if there's enough of it. He's not gonna melt if he has a single beer. Dumbass.
>>153695328Because sand is evil
>>153695993qrd on Byrne's bad decisions?
>>153697686The late 90s had spidey go through a pseudo reboot where Byrne was writing a book called chapter one that was him reinterpreting earlier Ditko Lee stories while writing the recently renumbered amazing book where he was trying to establish a new status quo for Peter one of the decisions was to make it that sandman was always a bad guy and was waiting to set himself up for a big score. He also wrote it that Flint was Norman’s cousin but that’s never really tracked with anyone. By 2001 most people had successfully ignored what Byrne tried to establish but flint has always been in a limbo where he’s still a villain but every 5 years or so he gets some story about being a good guy that never entirely tracks
Does any Spider-Man villain stay redeemed? Besides Abe Jenkins?
>>153698574Venom
>>153697604Lol okay Anakin
>>153693282
>>153690586He tries but he can never succeed.
>>153689847Didn't he do that with Silver Sable?
>>153700170Everything to do with Flint Marko and William Baker shit is dumb if it tries to go beyond, "Flint is just my criminal name", since trying to do DID shit with Sandman isn't unique and he should be blunt and direct like The Thing. In fact I'd rather he embrace the Flint name even after getting redeemed to show that he wants to remind himself of the continuity of his life. That name was once his criminal name and now he seeks to make it heroic. But nah, Spider-writers like Byrne can't come up with anything good or deal with change. Faggots.
>>153700777Yes.
>>153689847I think they've redeemed Sandman, Rhino, Boomerang, Shocker, Kraven, Mysterio, Lizard, original Beetle and now OsbornTo varying degrees. And they all usually backslide
>>153700871isn’t she also evil again for no reason
>>153698057Is it because Ditko drew them with the same hair?
>>153702048Yes that is Byrne's autistic reasoning. Same as when Doug Walker said "Why does it look like vegas? I spotted an irregularity!" Except Doug grew out of that and it didn't impact the public perception of Hercules or influence creatives to be uncreative.
>>153701773Dunno. Wiki pages say she was last in Venom War, possessed by Agony or some shit. Doesn't matter. Modern comics are dogshit.
>>153702269>Modern comics are dogshit. not all of them
>>153691442>utilise
>>153689847No, he has a stupid look and his powers are better served for a villain.
>>153701773She's been hanging out with Wolverine lately. And Nightcrawler before thatSeems fairly good
I love sandman type power sets so Im going to say yes. Give him a dumb catchphrase too.Something like>The world can sleep soundly while the sandmans on patrol!Spidey told him to say it or whatever.
>>153700843>Sandman isn't unique and he should be blunt and directThat's the essence. Sandman always feels like he could have been breaking into an ATM and then escalated with police until Guardsmen mobilized. He looks like a parole candidate because he's unambitious and not even all that bloodthirsty, but he's going to rob that liquor store again.
>>153698574Off the top of my head, Frederick Foswell, Hobie Brown, Black Cat, Rocket Racer, and Kaine all fit the bill.
>>153701773Nah she's just been slumming it in X-Men spin off books and sleeping with muties lately
>>153702251You could just use an earlier example from Byrne's own work, in 1979 he was the main man behind retconning Quicksilver and Magneto into being related because they both had white hair. He and everyone at Marvel he convinced to go along with it were too dumb to get that in Magneto's case it was just because he was old. If there was an online community in 1979 this would've been treated the same as making Sandman and Norman related.
>>153706396Writers on Nightcrawler and Wolverine books being allowed to have their character bang a guest star from another part of Marvel during a random team up story is the type of thing that shouldn't even get past the first draft without the editor shooting it down.
>>153706779Well, the difference there is that there was much hay to be made with Quicksilver and Magneto. Whether it's good hay or not is up to your discretion, but you can see the potential there of giving Quicksilver and Wanda an intimate connection to Magneto, even if it's on the flimsiest of excuses. "That's retarded" doesn't necessarily have to be followed by "therefore we must not do it".Even now, you'll see people who want to go back to that status quo, because there's a dynamic there that they like. But there's nothing like that for Sandman and Norman. Nobody's clamoring for a family heart-to-heart between Good!Norman and Sandman. We've never had them express cousinly love and share meals and bond. It's an entirely pointless connection.
>>153707228>because there's a dynamic there that they likeThere's a headcanon they like, where they're all one proud mutant family. I think the dynamic of the twins finding out their father is mutant hitler and having to deal with that was interesting, but the current spin of them being a happy family is beyond retarded
>>153707228What you're talking about is basically just the difference between once retcon having an immediate reaction from an internet audience to laugh it out of canon, and the guy pushing for it leaving Marvel entirely shortly afterwards, while the older change took place without an online audience, and with the people responsible for it staying at Marvel for years afterwards to keep doubling down on it until people like you thought it was good and important.>Well, the difference there is that there was much hay to be made with Quicksilver and Magneto.In 1979 it was over ten years since they'd even been in the same story, and Quicksilver was considered 'retired' at the time, and this didn't get him an ongoing role in a book either. The 'family dynamic' since is every bit as contrived as anything between Norman and Sandman would have been.Norman family drama is just plain better written and better handled than Magneto because Norman doesn't have the writers simping for him and pretending he was a good guy, or trying to turn Harry into the villain of their story. Magneto is a cancer on every character he gets retconned into being related to.
>>153707315>I think the dynamic of the twins finding out their father is mutant hitler and having to deal with that was interestingIn fairness to Byrne, that was what he wanted the dynamic to be, and he just didn't care that they hadn't had any interaction with him in years, and what Claremont did with Magneto wrecked the whole plan before it even got off the ground, probably unwittingly at that, he didn't seem to really care about the idea of them being related at all.This reminds me of a gag in What If? or What The? about Wolverine and the Owl being related because they had similar hair.
>>153689847>NOOOO>YOU CANNOT REDEEM>YOU CANNOT REDEEM>MARKO!>MARKO!>MARKO!>YOU CANNOT REDEEM!>NO!>NO!>NO!>DO NOT REDEEM!>DO *NOT* REDEEM!>NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
>>153707421>until people like youI never said it was good, I just acknowledged that there's something there. There's an argument to be made there, and stories to be told from it.Do you really think the hair is the only reason?That all it took to get Claremont, Gruenwald, and Stern on board was to say "look, this color is like that color"? That the only reason it held up was the Internet didn't exist? Apparently it existed for a brief time earlier that decade, when fans bitched about Gwen Stacy enough to make clones a thing.Fans, writers, and editorial were willing to give it a shot. For better or worse, they gave it a shot. It might be nice to think they're all just retards too dumb to understand that Magneto is old, but the world isn't that black-and-white of a place. Smart/dumb people can make smart/dumb decisions for smart/dumb reasons.
Wells made Sandman legit mentally ill thanks to Wizard's tampering with Sandman's mind to explain why he's evil currently and everyone since has ran with it to basically flip flop Will's standing as good or evil 100% depending on who's writing him and editors no longer giving a shit about imposing a set status quo for him
>>153705197>Life's a beach. But the Sandman? He hits harder.FTFY.>>153705690Yep. Spec 2008 had it right. Thief and guy who's most ambitious plan is stuff like holding an oil tanker hostage but still saving the people anyway.>>153706779>>153707228Well it helps that Gruenwald and Stern knew a lot of shit and had the idea of taking all those concepts and related bits of continuity related to Wanda, Vision, and her background regarding Wundagore and managed to spin a lot of overly complex shit into a more streamlined story that was still somewhat interesting. Quicksilver got caught up in that because they were twins. I dunno I forget the timeline of how those creators cemented more of Wanda's lore into something concrete but I think Magneto was made the father due to them and not Byrne.
>>153689847Of course
>>153689847His power is sand like how does that work, does he have control over sand is he made of sand how do you be made of sand on Sand little pieces of rock so does he have control over rocks is he made of rocks. Getting control giant rocks
>>153701773Silver Sable was never evil. Potentially antagonistic as a mercenary but never, knowingly, on the side of the baddies.
>>153709617Sandman appreciates your generosity
>>153707896I thought he became mentally ill from absorbing people as a beach
>>153707879>Do you really think the hair is the only reason?Considering we have actual evidence of Byrne doing the exact same thing all over again with Norman and Sandman, how can you possibly try to deny that?>>153708195There were several credited writers on those Avengers issues, it feels like someone had the idea for the whole Chthon backstory for Wanda, someone else had the Magneto/Quicksilver idea, and it all ended up getting mashed into one story, plus the mystery old man with a connection to the twins, which was something that had been set up back when Shooter was writing Avengers and took 2-3 years to get a payoff. Somehow that payoff ended up being "the twins were adopted and raised by gypsies but neither of them remember it because of amnesia". Which brings us back to smart people writing dumb things.>>153707896It's genuinely awful that Sandman is stuck as a villain because another villain brainwashed him, nobody else knows, and everyone just believes he voluntarily backslid into villainy, or never really reformed.
>>153709743She's also always sexy, even with adaptions Silver Sable always has an arousing design.
>>153713852
>>153713835He and Mark Raxton could hang. Bro ran Oscorp without incident for like 5 years, Norman put a transmitter inside his brain to use him as an attack drone, and he was leftover wandering homeless and crazy again.
>>153689847He should be in jail
>>153689847Why is he a villain?If it's to save his daughter and she's been saved and is taken care of, then he doesn't really have a reason to rob banks.After that, even if he's not redeemed, he can just act as if. For his daughter. The approval of the masses matters not as long as he becomes the man he wants his daughter to look up to.
>>153689847He would be too overpowered as a hero
>>153709674Yes
>>153713863
>>153689847Probably
>>153689847Yes, of course
>>153715641The daughter thing was only in the Raimi movies. Comics Sandman is just used to the thug life and keeps sticking to it no matter what.
>>153689847Yes, but he's doomed by being such an iconic Spider-Man villain. For it to really stick, you'd need an editor who makes it clear people aren't allowed to use him as a villain, and that'll inevitably get walked back as soon as that editor is out.
>>153723519He briefly adopted a kid named Keemia back during Brand New Day in 2009?They got forced apart but it's been part of his motivation ever since
>>153724626Last I checked, he dumped her in a foster home when it was clear that he could never be the dad he wanted her to be and that was the end of the attempt at movie synergy.
>>153715591On what grounds?
>>153724741*she wanted him to be
>>153689847Someone gotta kill his barber, mans fucked his shit up fr
>>153704782rude
Fucked up how Hydro-Man got redeemed before Flint.
>>153698057>>153702048>>153702251honestly I've never really had a problem with the retcon of Flint and Norman being related, since even in the story that introduced it it's presented as being more of a minor piece of trivia than anything(like they share a great grandmother from my recollection)though now that I think about it, I now want an alternate Earth where Norman is Sandman and Flint is Green Goblin>>153707896>Wells made Sandman legit mentally ill thanks to Wizard's tampering with Sandman's mind to explain why he's evil currently and everyone since has ran with it to basically flip flop Will's standing as good or evil 100% depending on who's writing him and editors no longer giving a shit about imposing a set status quo for himthat really should be dealt with someday, could be fun for that to lead into him becoming an Avenger again
>>153689847here comes the Big Fist
