Why won't disney bring back 2D? It's been almost 20 years since princess and frog.
>>153723033There's too much soul in 2D. We got to pump out 3D CGI that can easily be replaced like a sand box of toys, lit in a computer, all green screen actors. No matter how much money it takes.
Their studio not have the capability anymore. The intentional choice to pivot to CGI means all their in-house workers only know CGI. They have a hand-drawn division but it is small (maybe 10 people) who can only do adverts and this one-off short. They will not be able to again unless they invest hundreds of millions to get back a hand-drawn division capable of film-length content.They are outsourcing the 2d animation for the Oswald show because they are unable to do this in-house
>>153723033Because the animators and The Animation Guild ruined animation as a medium and as an industry.
>>1537230332D animation is actually fun and interesting to watch and fun and interesting things were universally banned after the Mayan Calendar ended in 2012.
>>153723216We ALL ruined animation, let's not disagree on that
>>153723189so hire indie guys>>153723233that really is when everything went to shit wasn't it
>>153723033The Sultan had the 2D Department sacked. Literally.
>>153723189That’s what I’ve read. The old masters would mentor the young, but that crop of teachers has gone dry.>>153723303Indie guys can’t animate in the style of Beauty in the Beast.
>>153723233>>153723303I'm unironically convinced that the world genuinely ended in 2012 and we've just been living in the outermost circle of hell ever since.
>>153723338That is still how it is done. The current crop in that division is led by Eric Goldberg, he is pretty much the last one of the masters still working with the company.However he is in his 70s now, how much longer does he want to work until he retires? Once he does that is it, then it is just second hand passing down of skills.
There's no point in bringing back 2D when there's no auteurs or genuine creatives at Disney. Like, who cares if they make Frozen 5 and Zootopia 4 in 2D? Hooray? Or if not that, what are they going to make? Something on the level of Elio or Wish?
>>1537230332d animators are unionized3d animators are not
>>153723545This.
>>153723545That might've been the case in 2001 but now they're part of The Animation Guild and Affiliated Electronic and Graphic Artists and make $10-20 more than 2D artists
>>153723189>>153723338Could Disney rebuild their animation department by bringing in masters from Japan? There's no reason you can't start with that knowledge as a base (anime already have global appeal so there are worse places to start) and then refine it into a house style that better suits what you want to make.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9URbx38AIYLearn from the people that can make this, and then make your own thing after.
>>153723860>Could Disney rebuild their animation department by bringing in masters from Japan?They could, but they won't.
>>153723033>It's been almost 20 years since princess and frog.That's kind of the problem.Around the turn of the Millennia, probably starting with Fantasia 2000 to be honest, 2D just could not for the fucking life of them get a hit on the level of even a middling CGI production. It sounds crazy now, but 2000's era 2D disney really did swing for the fences to try and get more watchers. A bigger investment in male oriented animation like Atlantis or Treasure Planet, a bigger range of casts like Brother Bear when they claimed they were hungry for diversity(Though we now know that was never an actual case), stuffing in marketable and cute characters like Stitch, even going all in on celebrity voices for shit like Home on the Range. And of course, their "Break glass in case of emergency", a bonified 2D animated princess movie with a massive marketing push and merchandise out the asshole.Not a single goddamn one of them could make as much money as Ice Age. ICE AGE. The movie that came from a studio that had only ever made commercials before wandered into the stage and somehow became a multi-billion dollar movie franchise. Shrek was absolutely gargling money. Pixar was getting all of the awards and recognition. What did Disney's 2D have? Not a lot, can tell you that much. They had the biggest budgets and the biggest marketing spends, something like Blue Sky wasn't going to match their level of marketing, but that didn't stop Emperor's New Groove from outright bombing. They gave it their all and then some, but it just couldn't stop the moneymaker Goliath that was CGI. They finally fully abandoned it by the time of Frozen after one last "See it totally wasn't Tiana's fault it was because of Winnie the Pooh" hurrah, and what was their punishment? The most money of any animated movie, ever. They would've been idiots to keep trying with 2D when they just couldn't find ANY success with it past the turn of the century and here we are.
>>153723545That was the case a decade ago, but not anymore.... why do you think they're pushing towards AI shit? Proompters aren't unionized.
>>153723354>outermost circle of hellThings have been way too awful for way too long for us to not be at least near the inner circle of hell
>>153724192Reminder: Some hack at Disney thought it was a good idea to release Princess and the Frog the same week as fucking Avatar.
>>153724243Anon I know you're posting a ridiculously shitty meme but come on, the innermost circles of hell are way worse than anything we have to deal with. You skin isn't peeling off in blisters bitterly cold winds that carry the voice of Barbara Streisand.
>>153724257...No they didn't? PATF came out over 3 weeks before Avatar did.You're thinking of Alvin and the Chipmunks, the Squeakwell, which came out the same week and went on to gross 440 million.
>>153724257>>153724343You're both wrong - wide release was Dec 11. Wide release for Avatar was Dec 18.
>>153724343That movie also released alongside Sherlock Holmes, the Downey Jr version, which went on to gross over 500 million.I don't think the proximity to Avatar was a factor...
>>153724192Nowadays their sequels are doing fine but every original breaks the world record for biggest movie flop of all time
>>153724278The world has been fucking awful for like 15 years now and has only gotten progressively worse during that time, if this was hell we are certainly not in the outer circle but something more near the middle. Also hell isnt real, but sometimes i genuinely do wonder if this timeline is cursed somehow and that we are in some sort of fucked up alternate dimension adjacent to the main dimension where everything is still normal. But where in the regular world everything is still sublime for the most part in our timeline everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong ala the comic marvel ruins.
>>153724374Which funny enough is what was happening with 2D animation when the shift to CGI was happening. While CGI was taking over, we had "The biggest bomb of all time" with Treasure Planet, Sinbad about took out the whole Dreamworks studio, and even the Pokemon movies sank after 1.I suppose now we have to see what next artform emerges and if it could repeat history or break the cycle.
>>153724343>PATF came out over 3 weeks before Avatar did.that was PATF's limited release - two whole theaters
>>153724399Disney created this timeline buying pixar
>>153724532>Disney created this timeline buying star warsFTFY
>>153723033What’s really sad about this is they could have made an actually decent movie for the hundredth anniversary of the studio but instead we got Wish.
>Zootopia 3 is 2D animatedIs this the way to bring back 2D? with a sequel to an established series? Is this more or less of a risk than doing another princess fairy story which failed last time?Here's an idea: Star Wars. do the George Lucas story for 7-8-9 in 2D animation in theatres. giga bucks, ultra cash, 2D is back, brother.
>>153724574I never liked disneys princess shit movies regardless, but disney really shot themselves in the foot making the princess of that movie have that ugly fucking rag hair cut
>>153724439And then they made Chicken Little which broke even and Meet the Robinsons which was a flop.
>>153724574>they could have made an actually decent movieI think that's the bigger issue, could they? Could they really have? Do they have anyone there who can actually pull it off AND think the means of pulling it off is a good idea? Because it sounds from pre-production like there were plenty of, if not good then at least better ideas being pitched during development. It's not like a better version of Wish didn't already exist before they tried to "Improve" it. Current Disney is obsessed with the theme of "The power was inside you all along and you just had to do it, no need to do anything to work towards it" in all their productions, do they have anyone there who could've at least said "Maybe saying no to granting every wish without effort doesn't make him a bad guy"?Or is this just the end result of an incestuous nepotism based hiring that focused more on if it would be useful in a PR campaign than actually capable of creating something worthwhile and nobody at the top even could do better, this is just the best they have?
3D animation takes too much eternity to model and animate a character until it's done.
>>153724661>And then they made Chicken Little which broke evenAnd still managed to have a higher gross than ANY 2D animated movie Disney or Dreamworks released from 2000 pretty much onwards. The much higher cost of CGI compared to 2D meant it made less money overall, but they had their confirmation that even a production they admitted was just a way to get their staff up to doing any CGI at all would do better than a 2D in gross, if not net.Then came Tangled, which they had been sure was going to be a bomb...
>>153724624>Is this more or less of a risk than doing another princess fairy story which failed last time?More of a risk because people might associate it with Direct to Streaming. Which as Mandolorian's tracking is showing is not a good sign.
>>153723033Because it would flop>NOOOO IT WOULDN'T THE PEOPLE WANT 2D!Look man, this is wishful thinking. The average animation fan isn't representative of the general population.
>>153724439>and even the Pokemon movies sank after 1.Eh, I chalk that up to Pokemania dying down, movies 1 to 4 were released in theaters, 5 and 6 got a few places, and then 7 onward were either straight to VHS/DVD (Destiny Deoxys was the last to be released on VHS), or it was aired on TV.
>>153724800You're not wrong, Disney just does not know how to actually make a 2D animated movie that would attract boys like Demon Slayer obviously can.
>>153724740>Which as Mandolorian's tracking is showing is not a good sign.I really hope mandalorian and grogu does well, its the only star wars film within the past decade i think will actually be enjoyable and im hyped for because it isnt shying away from all the cool droids and aliens and other pulp aspects that make a star wars movie actually feel like star wars. If mando and grogu does bomb im afraid disney is gonna go full hog in pretentious ass cancer shows that try to be similar to andor which was just crappy drama slop made by people who are ashamed of star wars and want to turn the franchise into grey boring shit.
>>153724556Still baffles that Disney fumbled so HARD with Star Wars, like this was supposed to be a franchised passed from one gen to the next few. My pops saw the originals in theaters, got them on VHS, got me and my sis into it, and just a few years after watching those the prequel series came out. As great as the originals? No, but it still carried that torch.
>>153724899>Disney just does not know how to actually make a 2D animated movie that would attract boys like Demon Slayer obviously can.While i do want disney to bring back 2D and to also market more to boys/men and drop the gynoectric content the rat has been so fond of for decades, i dont want whatever 2D male oriented shows/movies disney hypothetically produces to be just generic shonen slop like demon slayer because modern anime also sucks.
>>153723033I LOVE DISNEY
>>153724192Princess and the Frog only exists because Bob Iger wanted to appease Roy Disney and the movement he created that ousted Eisner and put him into power since Eisner killing 2D animation was the largest of Roy's grievances against the company.Roy passed away not long after the Hollywood premiere and seeing the Sorcerer Hat animation building be rededicated under his name. Bob would of course let Pooh finish production since it was a low budget project with their biggest money printer character, but with Roy gone there was no need for Bob to maintain the facade that he gave a shit about that part of the Disney legacy.
>>153724800Whatever reputation hand drawn has today cannot be as bad as where it was in the 00s.
>>153724944>Still baffles that Disney fumbled so HARD with Star Wars, like this was supposed to be a franchised passed from one gen to the next few. Disney fumbled in such a way that it was a perfect storm of mishaps and fuck ups that ive never quite seen in anything else. Everyone wants to blame kathleen kennedy but while KK was absolutely an annoying feminist cunt, to say that she was the sole reason the sequels sucked is completely untrue. Everything from bob iger demanding they rush the new trilogy out almost immediately made it doomed from the start. Also almost all of the disney brass were apparently really insistent about getting JJ abrams involved as director for 7 so they fucked up their too. And of course JJ being an OT purist made everything into a shitty rehash of the OT both plot wise and aesthetically which im sure wasnt just JJ's fault but also something iger wanted since they REALLY wanted a quick return on their 4 billion dollar investment and attempting to "fix" star wars by making it look like the kirkland brand original trilogy certainly made alot of gen-Xer's who hated jar jar soi face for a good while. Also they could sell more X-wings ina shitty orange color scheme or new iphone storm trooper toys instead of having to design and make new characters with cool toyetic designs like how the prequels had general grevious or the clone troopers. Something i doubt modern disney even has the talent for anyways is making cool character designs like the prequels had.
>>153725084>t with Roy gone there was no need for Bob to maintain the facade that he gave a shit about that part of the Disney legacy.They absolutely would still have made at least a few more 2D animated movies, particular Princess themed ones, if PATF could at LEAST match the Alvin and the Chipmunks movie that came out in Avatar's legendary run. If it could have made just that much they'd have kept up the facade for at least another 3-4 years.Once a PRINCESS movie underperformed/lets be frank probably bombed thanks to the marketing push, and the merch rotted on the shelves the gloves were off and he was putting it down himself. Winnie the Pooh was cover so they didn't have to say their black princess movie killed the brand.
>>153724625That and making the plot psychotic.
>>153724944Disney's biggest fumble was getting rid of Lucas, it really is that simple. Prequels were better than the originals but they also make the originals better. And the "sequels" aka the final part of the original nine-part serial movie would've been at least good if not great if Disney kept Lucas around as the "showrunner" like Clone Wars which was a rehearsal for the sequels in some ways
>>153724532That's another thing that's changed. Pixar was universally beloved when Disney pulled the plug on 2D.
>>153725942Just because KK was a feminist bitch doesnt mean that all female characters are inherently bad. >And death Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford for becoming Leftist mouthpieces, subhuman trash.Thats not even coherent. Go back to /pol/
>>153725867I mean they wanted boys when they bought Star Wars. The mouse just has a reverse-midas touch with boys I suppose
>>153725867>Remember what Walt said that women are the priority and "to heck with the men!" And its time you fools accepted this. You are an unhinged mess but im appreciate that you are singling out walt disney and shitting on him like that bastard deserves. Most /pol/fags are apologists to walt and act like "he did no wrong" when he always made the company primarily sanitized and gynocentric shit from the beginning.
>>153723033Disney is not an entertainment company anymore, its an IP holding and Copyright lobbying company. Majority of Disney's spending goes to its lawyers. The reason they refuse to do 2D anymore is because traditional style is time-consuming and therefore expensive to do and Princess and The Frog was a disappointment in the box office.Only real research department they have left is the animatronics and 3D-department. And those mainly design products and touch screens for the amusement parks, not movie production. Frozen movies were the last films Disney put any effort in making 3D visual simulations better.
>>153723033Corpo Disney are cheapskates that just want the biggest pile of money to hoard instead of caring about art like Walt did.
>>153725084It's ironic that Roy pushed so hard to oust Eisner under the argument that he was too corporate and didn't care enough about the Disney mission... only for Iger to basically turn the company into a great, big asset acquisition conglomerate. Eisner had his problems, but he understood Walt's mindset far better than Igner.
>>153724967>generic shonen slop like demon slayerGeneric shonen is way better than any cartoon made in the last ten years. I said this as someone who think popular modern anime as Demon Slayer, JJK and pic related are lame compared to 2000s anime. Western animation and writing are just that bad.
Man that was nice. Didn't know disney could still produce anything with soul.
>>153726209>The only salvation for Disney is for the white race to shrink to the point of becoming minorities within their nationsWhy would they do that? People from asia and latinamerica love white characters. They just need to stop with the princess bullshit.
>>153726193>Generic shonen is way better than any cartoon made in the last ten years. Objectively wrong. The only thing worse then modern shonen slop is SAO knock off isekai slop which has eroded the anime industry like a tumor.
>>153726299>Wouldn't call Frozen good movies at all,I wasn't talking about the movie quality. I was talking about Disney's visual department creating new snow and liquid 3D simulations for the film:https://youtu.be/O0kyDKu8K-k?si=c0KdQCSaTznZER7O
>>153726316>Objectively wrongHow I'm wrong? Besides Primal, what cartoons can compete? Modern anime is mostly bad but you can't find some entertaining moments and fights.
>>153726316I don't even like demon slayer but it is better than mighty magiswords, ok ko, unikitty, Apple & Onion, the ben 10 reboot, summer camp island, victor and valentino, Mao Mao Heroes of a pure heart, Steven Universe Future, Thundercats Roar, Tig 'n' Seek, Elliott from Earth, The Fungies, We Baby Bears, Bunsen is a Beast, Welcome to the Wayne, Adventures of Kid Danger, Middle School Moguls, the cassagrandes, its pony, rugrats 2021, middlemost post, star trek prodigy, monster high, max and the midknights, FOP new wish
>>153726087>because traditional style is time-consumingIt's got almost identical turnaround to CGI actually.>and therefore expensive to do2D has always been faarrr cheaper than CGI, especially on Disney's level. The most expensive 2D movie of all time isn't even in the top 25 overall thanks to CGI and specifically a lot of Disney and Pixar films.>and Princess and The Frog was a disappointment in the box office.That's correct, but more importantly it failed merch wise. You can be a Lilo and Stitch and not perform particularly well but still get milked dry if merch is decent.>Frozen movies were the last films Disney put any effort in making 3D visual simulations better.Funny enough, also wrong. Last time they tried it was Wish, where they yet AGAIN tried to make "Moving water color pictures" like Walt dreamed of for the original Frozen and what they spent seven years and upwards of 150 million on trying to make Meander work for Tangled, resulting it in having the highest expense of any Animated movie ever. Unsurprisingly they failed, again, and had to do just a weird cel-shaded style. Wish was supposed to be a "Next gen" production if you can believe it.
>>153726605>for the original FrozenTo clarify here calling it "The original frozen" is a bit disingenuous because not only was it called something different, what Walt had in mind was a lot closer to, you know "The Snow Queen". Which was the story. Some people claim that the whole water color thing with it was because he saw the Soviet version and it inspired him/he wanted a version like that, but that has never actually been substantiated and more likely he just really was in love with water colors late in life for some fucked up reason.
>>153723033Because it would cost too much and it wouldn't appeal to the mainstream audience to warrant it. Be glad Marvel, Lucasfilm, etc., is still willing to produce 2D TV shows and shorts.
>>153726447Theirs nothing entertaining about shit like JJK or overlord. Also shows like The owl house and amphibia were at least more creative in their characters and world building then any weeb isekai anime ever was>>153726570>star wars always suckedOkay but none of the reasons you gave are true or right. And just because carrie fisher was a cunt IRL doesnt make the character of leia bad>>153726679>The Emperor is a weak villain. Kill yourself>>153726587>ok koThat show alone mogs anything the bloated incestious and uncreative modern anime industry has made within the past decade.
>>153726791>incestious and uncreativeOh yeah, that OK KO, so lacking in uncreative plotpoints and certainly not referencing things over and over again that was not at all made via nepotism hire because of who the creator is married to and who she knows...Maybe pick a different one next time.
>>153726791>shows like The owl house and amphibia>OkkoNo way this isn't a bait
>>153726829Ok ko os actually enjoyable and has creative animation unlike generic "loser gets sucked into a video game and is OP while tons of generic flavor of the month waifus thirst after his virtual cock". That plot was shit when SAO did it and anime ruined itself when it decided to copy and paste said plot structure for the bulk of their content output for the past 10+ years now.>>153726848All three shows have more originality then any weeb shit since 2015 at least
>>153726912>and has creative animationOh yeah, haven't seen that animation pop and effect across a dozen other shows already...> and anime ruined itself when it decided to copy and paste said plot structure for the bulk of their content output for the past 10+ years now.The examples people and you gave were Demon Slayer and Jujutsu Kaisen. Or Frieren. Nobody said it but current hotness is Witch Hat Altier. Fucking nobody is gonna claim Owl House worldbuiding can scratch Frieren's depth and be taken seriously.Hate to break it to you but SAO was 14 years ago, the whole isekai thing hasn't really been "Big" since 2020 when Demon Slayer and MHA started party rocking in the house tonight, now it's people with magic style X-Men powers having slugfests with a lot of particle effects.
>>153726979He is a zoomer contrarian. Just ignore him.
>>153723545This
>>153726979>Fucking nobody is gonna claim Owl House worldbuiding can scratch Frieren's depth and be taken seriously.Frieren is so fucking generic looking it looks and most likely is like every other tired assembly line fantasy anime being churned out within the past few years. The show is ass and you know it
>>153727023>"Is not true and hasn't been for almost 2 decades now"is the other half of the sentence you dropped. Seriously between this and "2D animation is more expensive than CGI which is why studios use it!", I'm starting to get the idea posters here might not know very much about a hobby of theirs.
>>153723033Short story, they can't, only 2 guys know how to do it, both old in their 60s and 70s, kids and teens are too retarded and ideologically entitled to learn properly, which is why you got puppet rig shit with Simpsons, Family Guy, Rick and Morty, Smiling Friends, crappy Tween/Puppet mix with semi 2D like Looney Tunes Cartoons or Fake Korean anime or even worse, Steven Universe tier animation errors.It is dead Jimbo, Even Japan can't keep it up for so long and even they are showing their age.
>>153727044>and most likely is like every other tired assembly line fantasy anime being churned out within the past few yearsI'mma have some fun here.What exactly is "like very other fantasy anime churned out within the past few years"? Describe them for me. Lay out the plot beats or characters you expect to see.
>>153723189That to, and Investors and corpos ain't interested cause they are too stupid, too assholic and to pervy to care, and they are the ones truly in charge, fuck em
>>153724881Who cares about bastardized English versions?
>>153725118>Hey you wanna pizza roll?>Post a comment on this website if you wanna pizza roll
>>153727127Most americans over the age of 25 because that's the version they watched because the idea of importing subbed anime instead of watching the thing during a broadcast would be fucking absurd for a child to imagine?I dunno how to break it to you but most people would not recognize the name Satoshi, but you say Ash Ketchum and they're already doing the theme song.
>>153727087>What exactly is "like very other fantasy anime churned out within the past few years"? Describe them for me.Badly aping D&D but making it more pasturized, everything is way too clean and sterile in alot of these fantasy animes, no interesting new creatures its always just generic orks or unicorns, the designs are samey and feel like trying to rip off LOTR movie designs and they end up looking like every JRPG since 2012.
>>153723189This. They literally do not know how to do it anymore. They've destroyed/sold all their equipment to do it. They don't have supplier contacts anymore for paper/cels/pencils/paint anymore. And even going all digital means equipment and training expenses. It's true that all they have now are 3D modelers, riggers, and animators.
>>153727187>Badly aping D&D but making it more pasturizedWhich involves? What does this involve? Powers wise? Characters wise?>interesting new creatures its always just generic orks or unicorns, Oh? And if it had different creatures besides those two? Completely wildly different ones?You still haven't actually described plot or character for this "Like every other fantasy anime" by the way, two mentions of potential visuals is nice and all but what does a generic anime do, story wise? What characters show up and what do they do?Can't be hard, just reference one of the ones from the last ten years like you said.
>>153724399>Also hell isnt real, but sometimes i genuinely do wonder if this timeline is cursed somehow and that we are in some sort of fucked up alternate dimensionDon't look up when everything started going to shit and when the CERN Hadron collider was activated.
>>153727251>They don't have supplier contacts anymore for paper/cels/pencils/paint anymore.Disney completely stopped using Cel animation after Hunchback of Notre Dame. That technique was dead before A Bug's Life.> And even going all digital means equipment and training expenses.Training maybe but their equipment they have right now would work just fine. Textures obviously have to be made somehow with digital drawing.> It's true that all they have now are 3D modelers, riggers, and animators.And storyboard artists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nfeBsZNC-U
>>153727252>"durr im so smart by acting like im interrogating anon"Fuck off dipshit, all these shows either focus on some loser gaining XP in some shitty dragon quest rip off or very emotionless bland character, peppy waifu bait bitch, and stoic brawn dude with "le tragic past" go on quests or whatever. Also that shit creature design from frieren or whatever is not the "gotcha" you expected it for me. Its not very good. Fuck off back to /a/ faggot
>>153727272>Don't look up when everything started going to shit and when the CERN Hadron collider was activated.>large hadron collider as activated the same month the stock market crash of 2008 happenedWhat the actual fuck. I really wish i didnt know this now.
>>153727324>all these shows either focus on some loser gaining XP in some shitty dragon quest rip off or very emotionless bland character, peppy waifu bait bitch, and stoic brawn dude with "le tragic past" Strange, None of that seems to be in this 'Generic show'. In fact it doesn't seem to have any of what you mentioned.>Also that shit creature designWell I'm sure Owl House has a better one. Somewhere. It's so unique after all.>Fuck off back to /a/ faggotI can't say the same, I don't know any place you'd fit in with. You seem distinct in both being wrong and being sure about it.
>>153724944>Disney fumbled so HARD with Star Wars>>153725118>mishaps and fuck upsThey didn't fumble, anonThey did exactly what they wanted
>>153725118>"Porkins! Think about the future!" (shoots him down)
>>153727324Why is /co/ filled with these kind of faggots these days? It wasn't like this five years ago. Damn, ten years ago /co/ loved anime like the rest of the website.
>>153727380>Strange, None of that seems to be in this 'Generic show'. In fact it doesn't seem to have any of what you mentioned.Frieren is just about some elf bitch whos racist or something. I dont care, the show is shit just like every other forgettable basic bitch fantasy crap anime that gets forgotten when the season ends. Fuck you
>>153727409I like anime when anime was good, the issue i have is that i absolutely hate the tropes and genres that the anime industry seems obsessed over since the early-mid 2010s
>>153727412>Frieren is just about some elf bitch whos racist or something.Of course, that common thread of shows being about elves who are racist or something from the last 10 years. I'm sure we all can name a show centered around an elf bitch who's racist or something besides this one, so feel free not to.> I dont care,Maybe if you'd been able to give some examples that would mean something there, champ. As it stands anyone who listened to this recommendation or comparison of yours knows what they're getting into.>that gets forgotten when the season ends. I'd tell you why you saying this is funny but I'm pretty sure you'd just call it a generic massive success that got a multi-movie deal. You know, like every other fantasy show from 10 years.At least I don't feel bad, I said up front I was going to be having fun.
>>153727409>why doesn't everyone want to talk about /a/ outside /a/?have a wild guessanyway, trve anime fans these days aren't the kind who say naughty words on the nazi website even though everything else about them is exactly the same and both them and the old fans want to be underage 2D girls in japan
>>153727422>the issue i have is that i absolutely hate the tropes and genres that the anime industry seems obsessed over since the early-mid 2010sOh yeah it really sucks how every fantasy show is about a person being suddenly transported to a magical world.Unless it's about brown girls then it's totally fresh and unique and please stop noticing how samey all the world is, it's different because the hose armed people are animated differently when copying anime you see...
>>153727480Just because frierens a racist elf doesnt make the show that creative or even good either>At least I don't feel bad, I said up front I was going to be having fun.Whatevs, suck my dick>>153727568American portal fantasy shows are infinitely more creative and better then generic isekai schlock of some world of warcraft neckbeard getting tron'd into some shitty wish fulfillment crap
>>153727616>Just because frierens a racist elf doesnt make the show that creative or even good eitherAccording to you doing stuff differently then the thing you're complaining shows do too much of also doesn't make it creative, but what is creative is a show filled to the brim with nonstop references and copy-pasting storylines.Gonna go out on a limb and say maybe you just don't know what either of those things are.>are infinitely more creative and better tTold you, anybody still believing you at this point has to know what they're getting into if nothing else.
>>153727665The aesthetics and designs and everything else in frieren look and are the same as every other fantasy anime on today. Fuck off to /a/ already
>>153727356It's ok. We have been working on fixing it recently, slowly we will be back on course but it is a very slow and expensive process.
>>153727709>The aesthetics and designs and everything else in frieren look and are the same as every other fantasy anime on today.I dunno why you're so confident about something so wrong and easily verified so wrong. Did you think people hadn't seen Witch Hat Altier? Like they physically were unable to just look it up? Doublecheck?Who could you even possibly be trying to convince at this point? Yourself? You have to know it wouldn't work on someone with the ability to browse a piracy site. They can see it, in thumbnails. Who is this for?>Fuck off to /a/ alreadyThought we established what I think about people who would actually listen to you.
>>153723033They abandoned what they need for it, and it's too late to go back. What few talented animators they have are only enough for storyboards, not full movies. They chased after cgi, and it turned out to ba a bad move, but there's no going back. Now they have to use AI and Toonboom to try to recreate what they could have still had. Save us, Don Bluth.
>>153723033>Why won't disney bring back 2D?The illusion that cg is cheaper and more like film. They assume that when theh throw away sequences they aren't throwing away anything because they still have the assets. They assume that making constant tweets and changing this and that and then rerunning the sequence is free. Also, not sure if disney does this but several studios farm put sequences to cheaper studios across the world. They assume they csnt do this with 2d animation even though everyone was in the 80s.
>>153728519CG is not cheaper than 2D, for some reason a lot of lay-people make this assumption when it just isn't true
>>153727272>>153727356Simon Stålenhag has been trying to tell us all along.
>>153726912rest in piss/co/pe & dilate
>>153723189>SPA Studios Holy kino
>>153728538It's just something the cartoon community parroted until someone ran the numbers. Like the idea that modern cartoons are just as popular as 90s ones were.
>>153723860If they were willing to spend the money they could get any master animator in the world who is willing to work with them to revive 2D animation, which most if not all would do if they actually committed to the money it takes to do it
>>153727766Wow they really didn't even try to "lego" their heads did they
>>153727127Most of the planet?
>>153729893I just think molded heads are neat!! I think the simple cylinder heads would have been too generic.
>>153723033>princess and frogThat flopped.
>>153723545Thank communists for killing animation.
>>153725030From the thumbnail I thought they were toddlers.
>>153723105>There's too much soul in 2Di guarantee there are as many bad 2D movies as there are 3Dor are all those straight to vhs sequels suddenly amazing?
>>153730302even bad 2D can’t hide the human hand
>>153728695Kill yourself
>>153730618Champions of animation 1900s-1999: westernersChampions of animation 2000-2004: JapaneseLiteral fucking garbage 2005-2026: everyone
>>153723033>Why won't disney bring back 2D?Because isn't as popular as 3D animation.3D has a cinematic feeling that 2D can't never replicate>>153723545>>153723591>>1537270233D animation is far more expensive than 2D
>>153730900>3D has a cinematic feeling that 2D can't never replicateOnly dipshit normalfags with zero taste actually believe this
>>153730941It's just reality, watching a high quality 3D production in theaters offers an experience similar to that of a live action movie, something that 2D simply can't do
>>153730975>It's just realityIts not, 2D can look cinematic in the same way if not better since 2D is better then 3D schlock. Youre wrong and also retarded so piss off.
>>153730975No it doesn't.
Their last 2D theatrical movies bombed. 3D animation makes kids excited enough to want to see it on the big screen, 2D doesn't do it anymore.
>>153728519>>153728538It is cheaper, despite the more expensive equipment it is less time-consuming to do because 3D animation is basically doll animation with Motion Cap on top. Aaron Blaise completed his short film of 10 minutes in 4 years and he's a Disney veteran animator:https://youtu.be/xOXolSQcEb4?si=fr2fDKQa0pND7ADiWhen you animate a polar bear raising to stand on its legs in 1 second animation, CGI artist can have a motion capture person do it on front of a green screen, now 80% of the animation is already done, the rest is just tweening because all movement in 3D is principally tweening.When you animate a polar bear raising to stand on its legs with traditional style in 1 second animation, the animator has to draw the same polar bear 12-24 times. You can have a youtube clip or your buddy raising up as drawing reference but theres no easy tricks to make the drawing process any faster. Doesn't matter if you're the best artist in the world that one animation is going to take you a full day to complete. The whole reason Inbetweeners exist and burger animators relegate that job to koreans is because having more animators than just one saves time.
>>153730987>>153730993The numbers speak for themselves, Demon Slayer was manly carried by diehard weebs and couldn't even crack a billion at the box office, Zootopia on the other hand was watched by casual moviegoers who aren't particularly passionate about animation and made over 2 billion.2D has other strengths but being cinematic isn't one of them, lighting and camera effects will never look as "real" as a high budget 3D production.
>>153731055Zootopia does not look cinematic.
>>153731055>The numbers speak for themselvesJust because normies have shit taste doesnt mean their shit taste is correct>2D has other strengths but being cinematic isn't one of them, lighting and camera effects will never look as "real" as a high budget 3D production.The whole point is that its not supposed to be "real" its supposed to be a heightened reality that looks cooler then boring real life does. And yes 2D can do fantastic lighting and camera effects, youre just a drooling retard with shit taste and who is eternally wrong so go fuck yourself with a cactus, dipshit.
>>153731053>Aaron Blaise completed his short film of 10 minutes in 4 years and he's a Disney veteran animator:He didn't have access to modern digital tools which is what 2D animators currently use.
>>153731083>Just because normies have shit taste doesnt mean their shit taste is correctIf the majority of the audience is more willing to watch a 3D movie than a 2D one there must be reason.>The whole point is that its not supposed to be "real" its supposed to be a heightened reality that looks coolerYet many animators, especially in Japan, try to imitate the camera effects, realistic movements, and lighting of live-action productions.>And yes 2D can do fantastic lighting and camera effectsThey are not as good as 3D because they lack the three-dimensionality aka the physical depth to do so.
>>153726605>It's got almost identical turnaround to CGI actually.Because the traditional team is 4 times the size of the CGI team. Only way to make traditional animation process faster is to hire more people. At its peak when Disney was making Sleeping Beauty, each animator had 3 assistant animators and that movie almost bankrupted the studio.>2D has always been faarrr cheaper than CGI, especially on Disney's level. The most expensive 2D movie of all time isn't even in the top 25 overall thanks to CGIDisney's most expensive films are all made during bloated budget era of Hollywood films overall. Majority of the most expensive Disney films are live-action films, not CGI. Tangled is the only actually expensive CGI film because of CGI costs and thats because they had to develop the hair tech for the film separately.If Disney was tasked to make a quick CGI film in 6 months compared to quick traditionally animated film in 6 months, they would still go with CGI option because the production itself is faster and therefore cheaper. 3D animation is creating a doll, rigging a skeleton in it and then moving it like a doll on strings. 2D animation is like someone recreating the doll for every single frame of the movie.
>>153731107He live streamed most of the process, you can go see for yourself what tools he uses. >>1537309752D’s strength isn’t feeling like real life, it’s feeling like imagination. We take for granted how mind blowing watching hand drawn animation is after 100 years of Mickey Mouse but its cinematic future is far from being exhausted.
>>153731107>He didn't have access to modern digital toolsHe used modern digital tools though: https://youtu.be/rz8ar24RaKo?si=elEb0tgGW3cUqjd6Even when you eliminate the headache of photographing bunch of cell drawings and just draw directly on the computer screen it still took 4 years to do.
>>153731160>If the majority of the audience is more willing to watch a 3D movie than a 2D one there must be reason.Yeah because theyre retarded and easily suggestible morons with zero tatse. Appealing to the opinions of normies makes you the biggest normalfaggot on the entire site currently and you arent welcomed here for it>Yet many animators, especially in Japan, try to imitate the camera effects, realistic movements, and lighting of live-action productions.Yeah and they do it all better than the dipshits at say illumniation. I have alot to criticize anime about but they do those things really well just like some western 2D animators can do lighting and camera effects good too.>They are not as good as 3D because they lack the three-dimensionality aka the physical depth to do so.Rancid utter shit take here, unironically i hope you get run over or shot in the face by a mugger tonight. You genuinely deserve to suffer forced sodomization for these posts showing off your dog shit takes.
>>153731180Sleeping Beauty and Frozen used the same number of people.
>>153731182>2D’s strength isn’t feeling like real life, it’s feeling like imaginationI'm clearly referring to 2D productions that try mimic live action like the Cowboy Bebo movie
>>153723033Because 2D uninions are a pain in the ass. 3D unions are much more lax in comparison. 3D would 100% be dead if it was unionized as hard as the 2d sector.
>>153731212Frozen includes the tech artists, aka the people who made the snow physics, see: >>153726427Tangled and Frozen are not expensive because CGI animation is expensive, they're expensive because Disney's 3D tech pioneers were part of the team and the costs associated with the film. If they used standard 3D snow or hair those movies would be way cheaper.
>>153731262I actually by this as one of the main reasons why hollywood has been seemingly trying to bury 2D for the past 20 years now. I genuinely think execs would be that shitty and petty, plus also as much as i dont mind unions ive heard the animators guild or whatever its called can have their own issues as well.
>>153723233>>153723303>>153723354>>1537242432013 was still a pretty edgelord year, what are you talking about? The end point of all of this was maybe 2016.
>>153731182My bad, I didn't click the link; I thought you were referring to Alice's video.Anyway, judging by the quality and length, it's perfectly plausible that it took a single person four years to make, but that doesn't prove that 2D animation takes longer, unless you have proof that a high-quality 10-minute 3D animation, made by a single person, could take less than four years.
>>153723233>>153731302All the 3D edgelords are in the video game departments these days.
>>1537313022016-2019 was great. It was 2020 when everything went to shit
>>153731285The American 2d uninion is BRUTAL. It's crazy how they are willing to just tank the entire medium. 3d in america would die so fucking fast if it had the same rules.
>>153731211>Yeah because theyre retarded and easily suggestible morons with zero tatse.Not an argument >Yeah and they do it all better than the dipshits at say illumniation.I doubt it but can you name examples?>Rancid utter shit take hereIt's common knowledge
>>153723033Normies view it as outdated and "A Product of its time", thats why they won't do 2D, they strongly prefer 3DCG.>>153723189Reminder that TMS bided to do this and that E&H Production was going to do it's animation for them due to having the most amount of former Telecom staff that haven't retired at the studio because of the Greg segment on Bullet/Bullet (as seen in this picture) and Telecom's recent closer, Disney rejected their offer because TMS and E&H putting priority on the Magic Knight Rayearth reboot over Oswald due to CLAMP coming to them first before Disney.SPA (the studio that did that abysmal movie Klaus that was mostly animated in South Korea and The Philippines and most of it's budget was wasted on celebrity voice acting) won the bid and thats why were getting a shitty Oswald cartoon that will make 70s Paul J. Smith look like 1942-1948 MGM Tex Avery instead of something that will give SSSS.Gridman and City a run from their money>>153723860They are already doing that with Summer Time Reading and Bullet/Bullet, the later even had Dan Haskett doing the primary character designs for the Greg segment (commission by Toshihiko Masuda who was commission by Yoshiteru Tsujino because Disney wanted 90s Telecom but primary designs for those 90s Telecom shows were always done in the States so Haskett was hired by him, plus Tsujino was laid off from Telecom in 1988 to pay off Akira's losses which resulted him to go to Red Co. to co create Tengai Makyo with Oji Hiroi so they had to get Masuda to run those segments)>>153727296The Little Mermaid, and that was inked digitally, The Rescuers Down Under was their first movie they used their CAPS coloring system>>153727395It was already dead when they got it>>153728820NO! THAT STUDIO IS CANCER!>>153730171Made 3 times it's budget, it did not flopNow 2011 Pooh, now that floped because it barely made back it's budget>>153730672Even in the 90s Japan was champions of animation, case in point Tiny Toons
>>153731343A standard high-end 3D animated movie from Disney or Pixar already costs between $150 million and $200 million to produce. If strict 2D rules mandated hyper-specialization (prohibiting a 3D artist from handling both layout and lighting) and artificial quotas on software generation, it would double production timelines. Production costs would easily swell to $350 million to $400 million, putting an animated film on par with the most bloated live-action blockbusters. It would also need to make almost $1 billion just to break even.
>>153731361>durr not an argumentIt absolutely fucking is one you fucking nigger, suck my dick>It's common knowledgeNo it aint, 2D will always mog 3D shit. Eat a fucking bullet you sludge
>>153731343>The American 2d uninion is BRUTAL.Which is funny when most western teams relegate most of the grunt work to South Korea. Makes the Unions toothless when majority of the people with pen in hand work overseas.
>>153731302I agree actually that 2016 was when everything really started turning to shit, but even several years befote it had alot of shit in it despite some good cartoons and movies coming out during that time. >>153731326>2016-2019 was greatPic related is you. Everythint started going to shit in 2016 and it reached terminal velocity of awfulness by 2018
>>153731422>IMG_6256Opinion disregarded. 2018 was a great year
>>153731436>2018 was a great yearOh yeah the year where MehTurd really kicked into high gear, toysrus went out of business, and emma gonzalez telling everyone to have sympathy for asshole bullies who instigate school shootings into happening really was a great year huh? Kill yourself you retarded zoomer bitch
>>153731403>No it aintMany Japanese 2D studios like Ufotable use 3D for the environment to create a better sense of depth >2D will always mog 3D shitBox office data says otherwise
>>153731379No, $10 million to produce, $140-190 million to market and distribute in multiple countries, thats why the budget is bloated.Also if a film cost $350-400 million for everything it will cost $700-800 million to break even.
>>153731470>Box office data says otherwiseThe shit taste of normies doesnt prove jack shit, 2D is still a higher quality then 3D garbage and always will be. Jump off a cliff you normalfaggot cunt
>>153731470No, ufotale uses 3DCG to hide it's subpar shoddy animation.Just because you're better then Tonic DNA (aka the smartest death mute paralyzed from the neck down vegetable with a IQ lower then a jar a mayo on the short bus) doesn't mean you're good, even Shin-Ei Doga is light year better then ufotable, and Shin-Ei Doga is the Illumination of the east.
>>153731470>Box office data says otherwiseThis isn't the 1990s anymore, normies strongly prefer 3DCG.
>>153731473You are entirely correct that if a film's total combined expenses Production + Marketing are $350–$400 million, the break-even point is $700–$800 million. This is because movie theaters take roughly a 50% cut of ticket sales, meaning the studio only pockets half of the box office gross. However, the previous scenario assumed that production costs alone would balloon to $350–$400 million due to the rigid 2D union rules. The math scales dramatically under that scenario. If a studio has to invest $550 million upfront across production and marketing, the movie must make over $1.1 billion worldwide just to break even. Because so few movies ever cross the billion-dollar mark, a studio would rarely take that gamble, effectively killing the high-end 3D format as it exists today. Despicable Me and The Super Mario Bros Movie caps their production budgets at around $80 million to $100 million. They do this by outsourcing the heavy labor to their pipeline studio in Paris called Mac Guff relying on established, rigid assets, and avoiding massive story re-writes late in the game.
>>153731454Bitching about "le zoomers" doesn't make you more witty and smart braindead brownoid millennoid, I was 21 at the time and I remember that year being fucking atrocious in all respects, specially the second half of it.
>>153731551And that "French" studio is ran by migrant workers from the middle east and India, if France deported them to make the country white again Illumination will move it's outsourcing plant to India directly like DreamWorks, except India will do everything rather then "assistances" like with DreamWorks.
>>153731558>Bitching about "le zoomers" doesn't make you more witty and smart braindead brownoid millennoid, But it is mostly zoomers i see online who have this revisionist idea of what 2016-2019 was like and act likr apologists over that shit era and all the bad crap that happened in it>I was 21 at the time and I remember that year being fucking atrocious in all respects, specially the second half of it.At least we can agree on that then. And yeah 2018 was especially cancerous during the second half even if it was all around probably the pinnacle of where the shit hit the fan for culture war insanity. Fuck that fucking shit decade and fuck this current one too.
>>153731594Universal is to busy making spooky movies about guys wrapped in toilet paper to care about animation. That shit only funds the spooky movies they actually want to make.
>>153731302>Original post says "fun and interesting">"What are you talking about there was still edgelord stuff?"Edgelord stuff can be fun and interesting, that's not what the post was saying though.
>>153731326>2016-2019 was greatName one thing that was good.
>>153731470>Many Japanese 2D studios like Ufotable use 3D for the environment to create a better sense of depthAnimators in general use 3D models to rotoscope rigid objects. Golden Age Disney used plastic casts for deer horns in Bambi, photographed the cast from the desired angles and then animator drew on top of them.
>For years pretty much everyone agrees that 2008 is when things went to shit and 2012 was the final nail in the coffin>My face reading this thread and seeing people try to claim the late 2010s were goodThey were functionally no different than right now what the fuck are you people smoking, mass culture's been stagnant for over a fucking decade at this point.
>>153723860>Could Disney rebuild their animation departmentYes, but they won't. Because that would mean someone would have to admit that going pure cgi was a retarded idea, and suits will rather tank a company than admit fault.
>>153731601It’s rare to see so little of value written so long.
>>153731791Please understand, these people were children in the late 2010s and are now 18. Presumably.
>>153723860>There's no reason you can't start with that knowledge as a base (anime already have global appeal so there are worse places to start) and then refine it into a house style that better suits what you want to make.Why would Disney waste time with a less profitable and technically more limited animation style?
>>153731955And yet im still objectively correct and the late 2010s were crap, suck my dick little man
>>153731991You wanted a 10 paragraph incoherent free style shit word salad as criticism? That seems to be more your thing.
>>153731343Name the 2d and 3d unions
>reeee muh unions bad and they also eat dead babies and rape them!11Friendly reminder that union busting is a billion dollar industry in burgerland. If you think it's just some random anon spewing anti union sentiment in this thread, you're naive.
>>153732507I hate mega corps and rich elite dicks too but unions arent always saints either. Nonetheless i still agree with you that unions are needed against uber rich dick execs
>>153731377They both flopped. Tangled onwards showed Disney 3D is superior.
>>153732507>Friendly reminder that union busting is a billion dollar industry in burgerland.This is true but consider with all that money spent on destroying unions, why do so many big ones seem to go unscathed? Correct, the ones in place are no good or have already been routed around, like how the auto union not only killed its own industry and saved no jobs from outsourcing but kept voting for more outsourcing/immigration with their presidential endorsements.There's a reason on the other hand that there are virtually no tech/compsci unions despite an entire generation of software developers now being sold out to India in a decision that will likely collapse Amercan tech dominance in 20 years.
>2D animation is too expensive! How? With the advancement of technology, 2D should be easier than ever.
>>153733532Same reason cel animated shows on a pre-cable budget could afford 130 episodes per year but rig cartoons in flash can only make 8 every 3 years
>>153723033The answer was that Disney in the early 00s shut down their 2D studio and literally junked all of their animation equipment because back then the suits were convinced 3D was the future instead of a cheap 10 minute fad. So now they're stuck with 3D stuff nobody likes but it would cost metric fucktons to resurrect their 2D animation, all because of some extremely short-sighted decisions 25 years ago.
>>153725527We loved every movie and every new movie was more artistic and consequent that the one before then the disney nation attacked and we got formulaic slop, no more pushing the envelope, no more senior citizen protagonists or whites with black friends
>>153731038How's the weather in Mumbai?
>>153733649The Emperor's New Groove, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, and Treasure Planet all bombed. The Princess and the Frog was just the last nail in the coffin. You can only fail so many times in a row before it's time to give up.
>>153730900Corporations would rather spend a billion to avoid paying a million to unions.
>>153733532It's not, people are just coping. If Disney made a 2D movie today and released it on theaters it would bomb>>153733576>So now they're stuck with 3D stuff nobody likesThe highest grossing animated movies in history are Zootopia 2 and Ne Zha both are 3D
>>153733842Nonsensical cope. 2D is for studios that can't afford equipment for 3D animation
>>153733576>the suits were convinced 3D was the future instead of a cheap 10 minute fadit's also because 2D animators were unionized and 3D animators were not. It's also why current live-action movies are all poorly lit green-screen slop, because VFX studios aren't unionized
>>1537230332D is just kinda inferior to 3D
>>153723233>world ended in 2012finally someone understands
>>153724399...hell is a stretch but bad timelines aren't?>>153726193Probably would that femboy
>>153733859I wonder if you think Bon Jovi were listenable music based on their platinum count?
>>153733859>The highest grossing animated movies in history are Zootopia 2 and Ne Zha both are 3Dthat's not an argument for quality though
>>1537338593D is fucking ugly worthless slop and you should be hit by a bus
>>153733978>...hell is a stretch but bad timelines aren't?Yes. christianity shit isnt real but other supernatural stuff is
>>153733996>>153734134Anon said that nobody likes 3D stuff, he wasn't talking about quality
>>153732507>a billion dollar industryGood, maybe you can finally get a job, faggot.
>>153733150Making 3 times your budget isn't a flop.>>1537337792011 Pooh was the last nail in the coffin, not Frog.
>>153735506> 2011 Pooh was the last nail in the coffin, not Frog.Oh yeah I’m sure their 30 million movie was the real pain, not the Princess movie that they advertised out the ass and had a fuckload of merch made for that couldn’t make as much at the box office as Bolt. Frog was them putting everything on the line and released at a time when a similar kids movie made 440 million, and came up way short of even their weakest projections. Pooh wasn’t even a nail in the coffin, it barely was a pile of dirt on the grave. All they had to do was make it to Chicken Little and they couldn’t manage that. Also who keeps saying 3x its budget? Do you not know math? 105 x 3 is 315 this isn’t complicated, you’re about 45 million short.
>>153733576It kind of blows my mind people are repeating this when examples why it’s false are in this thread, and they would be very easy to verify if it was true.Disney kept the 2D equipment into late 2010’s, CGI was the future and they were getting dickslapped because they didn’t go in on it and when they did they got Frozen level successes, and their CGI sequels are the only things that are making a lot of money for them at all, Inside Out 2 and Zootopia crossed a billion. Financially going all in on CGI was the right call when they made the choice a little over 10 years ago after 13 of failures
>>153733576Disney threw out all of their staedtler #2 hb pencils and multi-use a4 paper. Society forgot how to use this technology, we're stuck with our primitive workstations and maya
>>153735888In addition to that, Pooh went into production in 2008 before Frog was released. It was only an hour long too, a "might as well release this to get some money back" instead of cancelling it and getting a total loss of what they had already spent.
>>153735963Disney did get rid of all that 2D equipment, but John Lasseter and Pixar were the ones that bought all of those desks and put them into storage which made the 2D revival attempt a whole lot easier.
>>153724625and they cut her white boyfriend
>>153735888Still broke even.
When you say 2D equipment are you talking about animation discs or Pixar PII workstation PCs or the multiplane cameras they have in the museums?
>>153723033They can't do it anymore. Ther ranks lack the talent.
>>153736301Whoop de do, their Princess movie, normally guaranteed box office hits they use to get themselves some cash, may have barely broke even at the box office while it’s merch rotted on the shelves and the Chipmunks Movie absolutely dogged them during the same month. And that’s assuming they spent less than 50 million for advertising which is very doubtful. If they spent just 50 million they lost money outright Then tangled made almost twice that and you think Pooh was even near the coffin? PATF killed it dead before it got there
>>153736418>Advertising...$95 million with distribution costs, only $10 million was spent on the actual film itself when it came to Princess and The Frog.
>>153736418Oh no Tiana sold less merch than Rapunzel. Must be the entire concept of animation to blame.
>>153731377Little Mermaid was not inked digitally. They used xerox and painting, and there were some computer effects used as well. Roger Rabbit was the final Disney film that was fully cel and used no CGI.
>>153736605After three other big 2D movies flopped and Don Bluth's Titan AE competition also failed, yes.
>>153723233>>153723033I like 3D animation. I love the fact that 3D guarantees the characters always stay on model. It satisfies my autism.
>>153735888>Disney CEO still confused why little girls would watch Frozen over Home on the Range.
>>153736965Kek
>>153732374The Animation Guild. a 3D animation budget scales with technology and asset creation, while a 2D animation budget scales directly with human labor and time. Because The Animation Guild "TAG" guarantees hourly overtime and minimum weekly wages for artists, the sheer volume of labor hours required to hand-draw a blockbuster 2D movie creates a massive financial burden for studios. In 3D animation, if an animator falls behind, technical directors can still work on lighting, texturing, or programming the rigs in parallel. In 2D animation, if the layout artists or key animators slow down, the entire downstream pipeline *clean-up, ink-and-paint* completely stalls. Because a 2D production is so financially fragile, the union enforces strict turnaround times, overtime limits, and meal penalties to ensure studios do not exploit artists to make up for these structural bottlenecks.
>>153736464>Why yes I did pull this number out of my ass and do not know that production budget and marketing budget are totally different, why do you ask?Where did you even get this idea? A dream?
>>153732507Overbearing union frameworks operate on a "one-size-fits-all" model designed to extract wealth from massive conglomerates like Disney or Warner Bros. However, these rules apply to independent and mid-budget studios as well.When a union demands high weekly wage minimums, strict meal penalties, and zero cross-department job flexibility, small studios cannot absorb the financial shock. This basically eliminates the "middle class" of animation. Producers are forced to choose between an astronomical Hollywood budget or sending the entire project to Canada, France, or Asia. The Global Animation Outsourcing Market is valued at over $200 billion, and it continues to grow rapidly because international hubs offer strategic partnerships without rigid labor constraints. When domestic union structures refuse to modernize or bend to accommodate budget constraints, they don't save domestic jobs they simply accelerate the outsourcing pipeline.
>>153737083He’s totally wrong and all but I find it really funny he went so far in the other direction knowing what we know now. After years and years and years of thinking the budgets were already big, tax related information from countries where such things are transparent have revealed that Disney’s budgets are always way; way higher than what actually gets reported. For years everyone said TFA was a mere 220 million, only to find out that AFTER rebates, kickbacks and tax breaks, it was 447 million net, down from the 516 gross it started with. Captain America the first avenger? Reported 135 and seemingly lean, actually 207 after rebates. This is all just production by the way, not a dime for advertising or distribution yet. Disney absolutely lied about budgets, but they sure as shit didn’t lie to make them look more expensive
>>153736833Disney stopped xeroxing the cels with The Fox and The Hound, they started digital inking with The Black Cauldron and went completely digital with The Rescuers Down Under.>>153737083That is the case, the old Toon Zone forms reported about it back in the day.>>153737310No, it is right.
No one wants to be an in-betweener. Hand-drawn 2D also requires a lot more time and patience to make look good over CGI with 3D models.
>>153737418> That is the case, the old Toon Zone forms reported about it back in the day.Oh wow an old forum said it, if only we had tax information right now that proves it’s hilariously totally wrong in every metric. Lemme guess, you can’t find said forum post anymore?
>>153737493It was also brought up on the main site, meaning it came from the site's staff.
>>153737532Well what insights they have. If only there was an obvious example anyone could post to in order to prove it wrong.Hey quick question, what do you suppose they spent on marketing and distribution for Paranormal Activity? It only cost 215 thousand dollars after all. How do you suppose they divvied that up?For those who are curious about the real number, a Paramount executive said they only spent 10 million on marketing and relied mostly on cheaper reaction shots and word of mouth. Yes, a 215 thousand dollar cheapo horror movie still had a 10+ million marketing budget; but obviously that was money well spent
Watch the behind the scenes of Finding Nemo. It's so interesting how they talk about studying fish to help create new technologies to simulate water, lighting, gravity, flocking, and all these other things. Say whatever you want about that film, but they truly pushed the medium and art forward. Basically every film from the Pixar golden age was partially dictated by artists trying to overcome and grasp new technical and presentation challenges with each movie. The story of Finding Nemo is essentially a series of setpieces, where each one provides something extremely imaginative and visually distinct. It's the perfect venue for Pixar's trademark of showing you something from a different perspective and they used it to its fullest. Not only is it such a beautiful beautiful film, but it flows (no pun intended) so well, they have complete control over every aspect of the visuals and story. The reason Pixar got so good in the first place is because they were always following the example of what Disney did. Pixar surpassed Disney. Pixar made something better than the 90's Renaissance. I think asking for 2D to come back is valid and worthwhile, but I don't understand why 3D hatred is justified as a prerequisite for that.
>>153737718Different studios work differently from others.Disney is not Paramount.
>>153737418>they started digital inking with The Black CauldronWtf that early?
>>153737752Yes.
>>153737748Well let’s just check over at the tax records from the UK real quick and see if that holds up!Wow it seems it’s the exact same and we have legal documents saying it. Who knew. Did you even find that forum post so people can at least see the info for themselves?
>>153737752He's lying.
>>153737814Different film.
>>153737481>No one wants to be an in-betweener.Dream job for many, actually.
>>153737746Watching the behind the scenes for Incredibles and seeing them go into the challenges of someone sticking a finger through a tear in a suit believably really makes it clear Pixar used to be full of the absolute peak of their craft both as storytellers and technical know how. They saw a problem like water making hair stick to someone’s face and they figured out how to make it important
>>153737481When you adjust for inflation back in the day inbetweeners made $9/hr, now with the union it's $45/hr
>>153737823Okay, can we see the proof/evidence that The Black Cauldron uses digital ink? Because I'm 99% sure that it's a xerox film that used some computer effects. I think you seem to be confusing the fact that it was the first Disney film with CGI with an entirely different thing.
>>153738017The cels were printed with a special printer so they can be painted, the inking was done digitally.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Cauldron_(film)#Animation
>>153738059This makes no mention of digital inking. I'm not sure what you're supposed to be referring to.
>>153737746There's a place for 3D and I don't have inherent problems with it. There's also a place for 2D though and I think it can easily match the best of 3D with the right hands. I don't get why people act like there has to be just one or the other.
>>153738158>Invented by David W. Spencer from the studio's still camera department, the animation photo transfer process (APT) was first used for The Black Cauldron which would enhance the technology by which the rough animation would be processed onto celluloid though this was tested in The Fox and the Hound in a few scenes. First, the rough animation would be photographed onto high-contrast lithographic film, and the resulting negative would be copied onto the plastic cel sheets that would transfer lines and the colors which eventually eliminated the hand-inking process. However, as the APT-transferred line art would fade off of the cels over time, most of the film's animation was done using the xerographic process, which had been used by Disney since the late 1950s. Spencer would win a technical Academy Award for this process, but the computer system CAPS would soon render the APT process obsolete.Inking was done digitally.
>>153738205Also...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animation_photo_transfer_process
>>153724399>Doompost about life being shitty>Marvel Ruins imageThat comic was a shitpost, by the way.
>>153738205Technically
>>153723033We can't... we don't know how to anymore...
>>153731955NYA but that wasn't a long post zoomertard.You came of age in a cultural miasma that still hasn't ended, and you've psyoped yourself into selectively thinking even some of it was good when it wasn't. You guys spent your formative years in shit and you haven't come to terms with it.
>>153738177>I think it can easily match the best of 3D with the right hands.Correction, the animation tests for Moana show 2D in the right hands can still wipe the floor with 3D.>>153738284That doesn't mean much when so much of Marvel has been a shitpost for so long, though. They fell for their own memes.
>>153738759>ayo man emoji movie wuz overhated it aints dat bad
>>153738205>>153738267How is a lithographic process the same thing as digital inking? I'm failing to understand.
>>153738017>>153738205>However, as the APT-transferred line art would fade off of the cels over time, most of the film's animation was done using the xerographic process, which had been used by Disney since the late 1950s.You’re both correct. Paint was digital. Xerography handled cleanup and transfer for xerox scenes and APT was piloted then for digital inks, but it wasn’t used in all scenes for the Black Cauldron, only partially. Someone who knows more about the process might be able to give examples of scenes or “tells” that show the difference.
i've worked with a 2D animator and did some 3D stuff, mocap makes things so much easier than the closest thing is rotoscoping and even then it's much more costly due to the 24 frames per second
>>153738759okay boomer
>>153723033Not in your lifetime, buddy.
What if Disney did a film at 12fps like anime? Cut back on some of the process
>>153741054They been doin that
>>153741054People stopped buying movie tickets for 24 fps films, they're definitely not going to get enthused enough to want to pay to see Actual TV Quality Animation on the big screen.
>>153741054Anime most of the time uses 4 to 6 frames of animation, 12FPS is something out of Warner Bros, Fleischer/Famous or Walter Lantz.
>>153742200>Anime most of the time uses 4 to 6 frames of animation,Did you step out of 2008 or something? QUICK! I need to firebomb a hadron collider!Also your mind is gonna be fucking blown when you find out that in addition to most anime doing 12fps on twos in order to get that effect, there's a bunch of anime on television airing at full blown 24fps.>FleischerOr you're just wrong. You could just be regular ass wrong I guess. The amount of people very wrong about things in this thread is worrying.
>>153742444Outside of 90s Steven Spielberg/Tom Ruegger cartoons, 90s DCAU, Ghibli and higher end Ghibli knock offs next to nothing uses 12FPS, even Disney's TV output through Telecom and Disney Animation Japan doesn't use that many frames most of the time.It's mostly 4 to 6FPS, and thats because theres barely any budget to be found.>FleischerI am right; Fleischer didn't have the type of money Disney had so they had to animate their shorts on 2s and 3s, also pose to pose while Disney animated fluidly as if was mimicking real life as real like isn't pose to pose.
>>153741411People have paid to see actual janky framerate shit a lot in recent memory, like Spider-Verse.
>>153742641Limited animation and 3DCG do not mix.
>>153742582> Ghibli and higher end Ghibli knock offs next to nothing uses 12FPSAre you saying DIDN'T or DOESN'T, because again unless you just stepped out of a 10 year time portal I've got some wild news for you about Frieren, Demon Slayer, Altier and Jujutsu Kaisen just to name a few.>It's mostly 4 to 6FPS, and thats because theres barely any budget to be found.Boy howdy you sure are confident about this very wrong and easily verifiable to be wrong thing and I don't know why. Just look up how many modern anime use 12fps on twos and which ones use 24fps for their action scenes, the number will floor you.>I am right; Fleischer didn't have the type of money Disney had so they had to animate their shorts on 2s and 3s, Fliescher superman was animated at 16 fps because that was the standard for film productions in the 1940's and they used direct-film rotoscoping for all of their human characters, that's why everything looks a little sped up but still fluid. It's a big reason why so much of it is jank when interacting with other thing s like robots too.
>>153742646Right like K-pop demon slayer who absolutely everyone hated the animation style of because they kept doing limited animation tricks.Everyone hated those snap movements in low frame rates so much.
>>153723033Just make a normal thread talking about your subject. You don't have to fucking screenshot a random comment from someone on twitter that is entirely unnecessary. Why the fuck is this not a bannable offense or considered spam? And before some retard comments, no, taking a screenshot of actual news or something important within the post itself and commenting on that is not the same as needing one person's random fucking opinion or comment tied to you saying something.
>>153742582>>153742582>I am right; Fleischer didn't have the type of money Disney had so they had to animate their shorts on 2s and 3s, He said, wrong, because he doesn't even know that we didn't use 24fps standard back in 1929-1942, after which it got absorbed by Paramount, so 2's and 3's would've been literally 5-6fps, and if you ever saw Popeye meets Sinbad you probably would realize that's fucking stupid.> also pose to pose while Disney animated fluidly as if was mimicking real life as real like isn't pose to pose.>As if mimicking real life>Unlike the studio known for it's rotoscoped superman theatrical shortsPlease stop. Please. Look up Wikipedia. Google it. Watch some shorts on youtube.
>>153742582>also pose to pose while Disney animated fluidly as if was mimicking real life as real like isn't pose to pose.Uh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nko9r3mxz0Q
>>153742664Those shows are at 4 to 6FPS, they never go above 8FPS, and thats if they're lucky.Nothing except features (as in proper features from the likes of Ponoc and CoMix Wave Films, not TV tie ins like Doraemon, Demon Slayer and Conan as those stick to 6-8FPS due to being just multiple higher end TV episodes stapled together) uses 12-24FPS.Also Flescher Superman is 12FPS only doing 24FPS for some of the money shots, film by 1941 uses 24FPS and it was never been proved that those shorts used rotoscoping.>>153742678Sony uses low end hardware for their movies which is why they have jerky movement.
>>153742784Exception, not the rule, also rotoscoped so that doesn't count.>>153742752Film started being 24FPS during the late 1910s, you're thinking of film produced before 1910 that was 16FPS.By 1923 (the start of the Laugh-O-Grams) all 35MM film was at 24FPS.
>>153742796>Those shows are at 4 to 6FPS, they never go above 8FPS, and thats if they're lucky.Wow you are just gonna declare this shit while a very easy way to verify if it's true is just a click away, okay, cool.Who the fuck could you possibly be doing this for?>Also Flescher Superman is 12FPS oIt's not because they didn't use 12fps during that time.>film by 1941 uses 24FPS and it was never been proved that those shorts used rotoscoping.I... what? Yes it was. We know the name of the guy they used for Superman, Karol Krauser. Where the fuck did you pull this wild shit out of?>Sony uses low end hardware for their movies which is why they have jerky movement.Oh yeah, which is why none of their other film before Spider-Verse did that.
>>153742829>Exception, not the rule, also rotoscoped so that doesn't count.Oh dear god he's retarded.
>>153742796>and it was never been proved that those shorts used rotoscoping.uh https://www.cartoonbrew.com/cartoon-culture/discovered-fleischers-superman-model-was-karol-krauser-65414.html
>>153742889>>153742912See picture.>>153742928>Oops! There's nothing here>Sorry, the page you were looking for cannot be found.In other words...>404'ed.
>>153742969>>Oops! There's nothing hereGoddamn I knew he was retarded but can't even copy paste a link?Anyway if anyone wants to see a video where they talk about Demon Slayer's actual animation and by frame stuff and isn't a weirdly confident idiot, check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLB_sLTgbPk. These shots were wild!
>>153743008Shopped from unrelated pictures from Face Book.
>>153743008>>153743025The frame count is at 6FPS, also covered by 3DCG to cover the shoddy animation that makes Tonic DNA better then what it really is (the smartest kid on the short bus that also happens to be a vegetable).You want to see a video where they talk actual animation and by frame stuff and isn't a weirdly confident idiot, check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZsVB6QiYrg These shots are light years better then the shit ufotable shat out for Demon Slayer.
It's weird but my niece and nephew have a visceral reaction to 2D animation. I noticed it whenever I present anything to him. He also avoids 2D animation when it comes to picking videos on Youtube. Same kind of thing when it comes to Pixels in video games. It's something to do with filling the gaps with your own imagination that they fail at, but I'm too retarded to figure it out.
>>153743119Show them MeTV Toons, that will fix that.
>>153739060>You’re both correct. Paint was digital.This does not appear to be true from the evidence that I can see. Again, I need an explanation of how a lithographic process is somehow related to digital inking.>>153742444If you think TV animation using 4-6 frames PER SECOND is an insult, you need a reality check. Very few things have done something approaching that level for longer than 1 scene because it's too demanding.
2D fans are like the Japanese soldiers that keep fighting even though the war has long been over. It's been 20 years since 3D dominated cinema 2D is never coming back to the big screen in the US.
>>153743234>>153745037>>153745050OP, let your shitty thread die already. Only you give a shit.
>>153745064Dumbass
