>Longtime Marvel veteran Brad Winderbaum takes on an expanded role overseeing Marvel Television, Animation, Comics, and Franchise, as Disney executive David Abdo joins Marvel as General Manager, Comics & Franchise.>Marvel today announced new leadership overseeing its comics and franchise teams, naming Marvel Studios executive Brad Winderbaum as Head of Marvel Television, Animation, Comics & Franchise. He will oversee the creative direction of Marvel’s expansive publishing portfolio, as well as Marvel’s global brand and franchise efforts, in addition to his current role overseeing television and animation. Joining Marvel from Disney, David Abdo will serve as General Manager, Comics & Franchise, reporting to Winderbaum. After a near 30-year career with Marvel, Dan Buckley, longtime head of Comics & Franchise, has announced his plans to depart. Buckley will remain at Marvel through mid-2027 to support the leadership transition.>“Brad’s exceptional creative leadership and David’s deep experience in operations and digital innovation will be a powerful pairing as we begin building out the next 90 years of Marvel’s comic book legacy,” said Kevin Feige, President, Marvel Studios and Chief Creative Officer, Marvel. “Brad brings a proven ability to lead creative teams and craft ongoing, episodic narratives that resonate with our fans around the world, while David offers a strong track record of operational excellence and strategic growth. I’m excited for what they’ll be able to do together.”https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/marvel-leadership-brad-winderbaum-david-abdo-dan-buckley
>>153735751>After a near 30-year career with Marvel, Dan Buckley, longtime head of Comics & Franchise, has announced his plans to depart. Buckley will remain at Marvel through mid-2027 to support the leadership transition.Whoa, did not expect that
Well My crackpot conspiracy theory is that a reboot is coming.
>>153735751DC kicking Marvel's ass so hard they had to fire Dan Buckley. Lmao
>>153735751Ding dong the Buckley’s dead
>>153735805I expected it when Gabriel left. The rot at Marvel comes from the top down and I suspect guys like him and Buckley were the ones responsible for things like the 10 issues or less bullshit. The company definitely needs managment change and changes in editorial too but I worry that this will just be a latter move by replacing them with other Disney/MCU guys.
Not enough
>>153736991>They're comics
>>153736991Has Youngblood ever managed to run past 12 issues?
So does the new upcoming event with Sentry and the origin boxes further support the theory of a first ever hard reboot? Also what are the odds new management will take notice to the weird treatment Spidey has been getting lately?
>>153735751What does this mean for the comics themselves?
>>153737073>So does the new upcoming event with Sentry and the origin boxes further support the theory of a first ever hard reboot? No
>>153737110Who are the so-called other 3?
>>153737082disney synergy
>>153737110Who are the other three? I’m sure Brevoort’s one but who else? Yoshida-san? Who else?
who got the axe?
>>153737126>>153737138
>>153736180Shows you the importance of good competition
>>153737167Never met someone who hated marvel leadership more than liefeld, it's like a full time job for him.
>>153737073It's not Sentry, and no
>>153737195Accidentally deleted. Yeah I imagine one of the four is Brevoort with whom he's had an ok relationship with from time to time til he vascilates to attack mode. But after Feige slighted him and his family at the DP premiere he declared all out war on the company.
>>153737045Liefeld's analysis of Marvel's problems starting at the corporate level from guys who have been there forever and aren't particularly great is on point.>>153737073They're not rebooting you fucking retard. It's just a way to introduce Wonder Nigga to the comics and because MCU Sentry is popular. In fact, the new Big Boss being the guy in charge of all the TV shit (and now being in charge of everything but the movies themselves) and being Feige's right-hand man makes me worry that there's going to be a greater effort to synergize the comics with other media. Look at how Danger is in both Rivals and Tokon and was going to be a big part of post-Imperial cosmic before that got axed. Expect more shit like samey lineups and character usage across games/shows/comics and shit like that.
>>153735751With both companies changing directives, are there any chances they contact with the new Lucasfilm management to relaunch SW comics in a big way? That line feels completely irrelevant nowadays.
>>153737239>and being Feige's right-hand manWith Gunn out, I wonder if Winderbaum is being prompted to take Feige's job in the future.
>>153737207Source?
>>153735751Brad has definitely been a big asset in getting Marvel TV back in line after those disastrous early Disney+ shows, but won't he be spread too thin overseeing comics now, too?
>>153737244To me it feels like the talent interested in that are doing the 20thCF properties like Alien, Predator and PotA instead. imo all should be a single anthology book, and another one for Disney/Pixar shit but that idea seems radioactive to comic publishers.
>>153737331Man, I hope Ben Percy does a Punisher vs. Predator comic at some point. It feels like it's destined to happen.
>>153736991>>153737041>>153737055>>153737066>>153737110>>153737156>>153737221>>153737351Inshallah Gruenwald's spirit will get his revenge and free us from this tool
>>153737303I think that's why David Abdo is there, he's likely to be the one overseeing the comics division and then report to Winderbaum
>>153737239>Look at how Danger is in both Rivals a-Danger is in Rivals?
>>153737239>Look at how Danger is in both Rivals and TokonDanger isn't in Rivals? Don't be so quick to call others retards>>153737442No
>>153737398Why? He'd probably agree with Liefeld if he saw the state of Marvel, too, regardless of his feelings on Heroes Reborn
>>153737082Refocus on comics-as-service.
>>153737398Liefeld can be a tool but he’s right about Marvel. How the fuck does the MCU spend ten years as the biggest thing on the planet but not move the needle even a centimeter on comic sales but Invincible and the new Superman movie brought people into comic shops?
>>153737303lmao are you retarded? Brad was the executive producer for all of the fucking garbage that ruined the MCU. Thor 4, Ironheart, Secret Invasion, She-Hulk— that was all him. If he’s in charge of the comics, too, he’ll probably just destroy what little is left to make way for even more god-awful synergy
>>153737195The last time Rob Liefeld had an actual full time job, he was drawing Captaon America.
>>153737239>Liefeld's analysis of Marvel's problems starting at the corporate level from guys who have been there forever and aren't particularly great is on pointThis is true, but let's not let that erase his equally stellar management of Extreme Studios, Maximum Press and Awesome Comics.
>>153737580Winderbaum was made head of Television precisely because that division had no man in charge other than Feige, and he wanted to go back to solely focus on the films. Brad only started his real tenure mid 2023 and, whether things on the TV side have truly improved or not, it's far more stable than before Secret Invasion (which was the breaking point for the studio internally).
Fix Spider-man
>>153737644Fix everythingSolve Everything
>>153737398>free usYeah he's an egotist but it's very entertaining when he's fired up, you've just gotta sit back and enjoy the show
>>153737580>Brad was the executive producerWhich doesn't tell much. Without knowing who made which decisions, an executive producer credit could just be there to indicate "this guy helped raise money for our production".
>>153737473Gru would've been lost by Marvel by the mid-oughts at the latest, when Queseda and Bendis were going around shitting on the idea of continuity as a concept.
>>153737239can they dump Tom Bovort so Spidey can be happy again?
>>153737685This. Feige is still credited as producer in all the TV shows but he's not very involved in them anymore.
>>153737696
>>153737729wtf
>>153737729>a devil steals their loveThe treatment of that panel in the current continuity of Spider-Man is really making it seems that anyone else other than Peter Parker who wants to be Spider-Man must make a pact with Mephisto. Why should anyone other than Peter Parker be Spider-Man again?
>>153737729You forgot “gets a cool younger black replacement.”
>>153737996Flash and Linda's love is so strong it causes the demon pain and he has to beg them to take it back so they strong arm him into undoing all the damage he caused.It's funny really.>>153738045Yeah but they sort of dialed that back and Ace ended up being a bit more of a team player.
>>153735751I don't even care if all their bona fides are in the MCU, the general state of things was never going to improve under Buckley. However this turns out, at least there's a chance things could get better.
>>153737996That's not a new retcon, it's the fucking plot of OMIT which came out right after OMD and was done to explain how the deal actually changed things. In short, a thug gets freed from a cop car by Mephisto aroudn the time of The Wedding so Peter stops him but gets bonked by a rock and knocked out and misses the wedding. Then later on Back in Black happens but Pete saves Aunt May with CPR (somehow) so Kingpin hires an assassin who turns out to be the thug Peter stopped, he shoots MJ who's saved by Strange. Then Peter has Strange do a spell which causes everyone except Peter (and MJ when he brings her into the little protective bubble) to forget he was Spider-Man.So Peter has no knowledge of OMD because the agreement caused a retcon which was explained in OMIT which is what's being recounted on that page.
>>153738447So does Miles want to be Spider-Man or not? Make up your mind.
>>153738447Maybe Gwenpool can tell him about?
>>153738506This has to be intentional right? Does he have to copy everything?
I hate agreeing with Liefeld
>>153735751Does this mean Marvel can be decent again? I think they should fire some more people just to be safe
>>153737195There's probably a lot who hate them but he's just one of the few who genuinely doesn't give a shit if he ever works at Marvel again
>>153738839You know I wouldn't say DC is GREAT at the moment but they've been decent. If marvel can even get to that level.
>>153739224
>>153739246
>>153737577On the one hand I can understand in that movies don't bring in readers to the monthly grind on a large scaleOn the other hand it is extremely strange that even when the MCU was at its peak, DC still outperformed Marvel in the bookstore market most years in that decade. Like the top selling Marvel books in the bookstore market during that decade, year-after-year for a while were Infinity Gauntlet, Civil War, Fraction's Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel vol 1, Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe
>>153739224I mean, realistically, what can Tom Brevoort do to turn the ship around and save his ass? They really are out of get-out-of-jail-free cards, except doing the thing everyone wants them to do.
Too little, too late, the rot is far too deep.
>>153738658At that point it looked like a bunch of separate writers at marvel thought that Spencer’s run was going to lead to a retcon, or at the very least an actual conclusion, to OMD. Otto had a similar story written by gage where he got his old body and life back due to a deal with mephisto. As of this point nothing has come of it and it’s all pretty much ignored by current writers
>>153739509Honestly I'm not sure what he can do at this point. The Ultimate line ended and since then further announcements are anemic because people are tired of constant relaunches and initiatives that go nowhere. The mentality that they need to enforce OMD but allow creators to run amuck not caring about other prior stories is coming home to roost because now people don't care about reading Marvel's comics that much
>>153738447I don't know why people struggle so much with this concept. The deal with Mephisto re-wrote reality, and in that new reality Strange did his magic whammy.I really don't want to think about OMIT though, that story pisses me off more than OMD itself does
>>153739974OMIT came at a time when comic sales fell a lot, and the people who bailed because of OMD were not going to read OMIT, and the people who got into comics in the 2010s and 2020s, likely didn't read OMIT
>>153739402Also what is strange about it is that you'd think Avengers and Spider-Man TPBs would be at the top of Marvel's chart during that time, but they didn't (unless you counted Civil War, Hawkeye, and Infinity Gauntlet)Sometimes, maybe they chart high on the Bookscan chart for one year, and then don't appear in subsequent charts
>>153740242I find it difficult to believe that someone who's still reading Spider-Man comics now to get mad at them decided to take a break for a while.
>>153739246>>153739264>3 D’s>Executives no one’s heard of beyond Buckley >no mention of anyone in editorial like BrevoortSo Liefeld’s still just assblasted he didn’t get invited to the Deadpool/Wolverine after party
>>153739224Which guys are he talking about besides Buckley?And who is the “fourth horsemen” he was talking about??
>>153740956It's that most recently but the biggest slight, the main thing, was Hickman's X-Men halting plans for Major X
>>153741263Major X was the absolute stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. Just some guy with a bucket on his head what the fuck
>>153741026
>>153740956Are you not fucking aware of how this shit works? Yes, the execs are the ones largely in charge of shit especially when it comes to things like how many books are published, publishing plans in general, what should be focused on, etc. Go read about bubble era Marvel where the sales department was essentially the ones running the publishing division and were the main drivers behind flooding the market with books, dragging out shit like the Clone Saga, variant and gimmick cover spam and all that. Buckley was the president of Marvel since 2003 so while he might not have pesonally been behind every creative decision, everything needed his eventual approval and he would have basically been the guy in charge of setting or approving the company's business and creative strategies. Gabriel was in charge of a lot of things like sales and marketing. Guys like these would be the ones making decisions on which characters to focus on, increasing synergy, making the decision that Marvel will only approve books for 5 or 10 issues and focusing on lots of relaunches. In fact, a lot of Marvel's shitty publishing decisions, that they've been doing in one form or another for a long time, started cropping up once guys like Buckley and Gabriel got their current positions in the mid-2000s.They, as much or more than editorial, deserve a lot of blame for Marvel being in the state it's in right now. That doesn't mean that guys like Cebulski and Brevoort and Lowe don't deserve blame too but ultimately it's both the buck stopping with the guys up top or the guys up top demading stupid shit. Guys like Buckley absolutely needed to go but we'll see if Winderbaum and Abdo actually recognize the issues with the comics division and work to change things or if they continue doing stupid shit. My big fear is that with Winderbaum being in charge of all the non-movie stuff on the non-comics side we're going to see even more shitty and forced attempts at synergy.
>>153739974You don't like that Spider-Man missed a rock fell on his head?
>>153740956Liefeld hates Brevoort too because Brevoort shit talked him when he was complaining about how shitty DC's editorial was around 2011/2012 and I think said or implied that Liefeld had a drinking problem as a "gotcha" regarding it. Also Brevoort basically smugly/condescendingly told Kirkman "good luck with your post-Marvel career" in a way that essentially meant he thought Kirkman was going to be a failure without Marvel (which isn't surprising, Brevoort ruined Marvel's relationship with Shooter permanently by being a condescending prick to him regarding a planned Korvac Saga sequel around 2001).
>>153741490>t. Rob
What improves would you make to Marvel in the short-term, /co/?>Chop down the X-Men titles to 2 team books and 1-2 solo books at the same time>get rid of the "5 issue test". Let runs go on as long as possible, this goes double with C-listers and such. If the comic is actually dogshit and/or selling near zero copies cancel it at 15 or so issues. >"isolated events", aka have events that only affect one or so runs, maybe another of it benefits the story>make more alt-universe long running stories where creators can do whatever they want and target different audiences with different needs
>>153738124Hilarious considering Wally is the only superhero Waid approves of to get married and was all for getting rid of Pete's marriage.
>>153741691>>get rid of the "5 issue test". Let runs go on as long as possible, this goes double with C-listers and such. If the comic is actually dogshit and/or selling near zero copies cancel it at 15 or so issues.That's a great way to lose money. Jim Shooter didn't let poorly selling titles go for 15 issues. By the early 80s, if a a newsstand title didn't sell 125,000 issues a month, he'd just cancel it. And the break-even point was 80,000, even making a little bit of money wasn't good enough.
>>153736991Unnecessarily cruel, but I agree.The MCU bought the comics and cartoons more than enough time and good will to get their shit in order, no excuses.
>>153741777if that were to be applicable to today's standards then marvel would only publish spider-man, X-Men, and maybe and Avengers book if you're lucky
>>153741509I think it's one thing to retcon a story, but chopping up pages of the old story and inserting the new retcon ones is just fucking insulting. Not only to the readers, but to the original creative team as well. Especially when the point of the new story is to completely negate the old.The new art doesn't even remotely blend in with the old either
>>153741851And?You could litterally just publish spiderman, xmen, avengers anthology/tonkabons and do 5 -15 issue runs of atuff they think would sell well in the collectors market.
>>153737239the mcu reboot is inevitable now unless spider man and avengers bombs so bad that yidsney pulls the trigger on them
>>153741709Because Waid hates how terribly done the marriage was, it was literally to one up stan lee's journal shorts, where peter was literally wally.Which by the way were better than the comics at the time.Spider-Man's marriage should be akin to how wally and linda was built, even lois and clark was good too.
>>153741582and now kirkman's image is burying marvel thanks to tranformers and now invincible once more.as for dc, johns fixed the ship and shitvoort also said that he would never do it as long as his butt buddy didio is there, and look what happened next.
>>153741691Cut the number of ongoings by like 1/3 including getting rid of all/most of the Star Wars/movie titles. No more 5/10 issue shit and indeed cut out all renumberings and relaunches. If you approve an ongoing give it at least 12 issues, proper promotion and a chance to find an audience. If a book's sales aren't spectacular but consistent then let it keep going.Put a multi-year pause on events and crossovers. Get rid of editorial chaff which means Brevoort, Cebulski and Lowe. Cebulski has value as a talent scout so promote him to some shit like VP of talent management but Lowe and Brevoort can fuck off. The next EIC needs to rein in a lot of excess and editors need to do a better job of ensuring adherence to continuity and characterization.Realize the monthly floppy is dying. Don't abandon it but release new issues day and date on Marvel Unlimited for subscribers, first three issues of older ongoings are free. Treat it as a loss leader and if LCS owners whine, fuck them because their money nowadays is made on toys, TPBs and shit more than floppies I assume.
>>153742522Feige wanted diversity in the MCU. Feige wanted replacement heroes and diverse heroes in part to solve the issue of retiring characters and replacing those actors in the MCU. Hence why the 2010s comics went all in on replacement heroes, diverse heroes, creating hero families and trying to legacy character Marvel heroes. Not even the first time the comics have bowed to the whims of adaptations.
>>153741026One of them was David Gabriel, who was let go recently. The other guy is David Bogart who I think is still there.>>153740956>>Executives no one’s heard ofIf someone was a retailer they definitely knew who David Gabriel is. I remembered hearing retailers complaining about him as far back as the 00s.
>>153741777The industry is not at that point anymore. 20 years ago for Marvel, the cutoff line was around 20k and sales haven't gotten any better than 2005. Having good word of mouth and timely TPBs that are constantly in print is more important anyway. Sandman was never a big seller in floppies but the TPBs were always available and those are what sold. Having a big seller is great but realize a lot if audiences aren't going to stores and buying floppies but if the collections sell then it's worth keeping the monthly going because it's more or less acting as advertisement for the TPBs. That's what manga does with the magazines being a way to advertise the collected versions, it's what DC has been good at since the '80s.Marvel even had this in the 2000s where books like Spider-Girl and Runaways weren't great monthly sellers but the TPBs (specifically the cheaper digest sized ones) sold great which led to continuing monthly titles. Then Marvel abandoned that format for some stupid reason.
What did David Gabriel do wrong? All I know is that David Gabriel really improved the collected editions of comics over the years, created the marvel omnibus, amongst other things.
>>153742454Lois and Superman's marriage got delayed for years because DC's upper management wanted to synergize it with the TV show once they got word that Lois and Clark was going to be a thing. IIRC the reason Death of Superman exists is because the marriage plans were iced and they needed a big story.
>>153737729And yet Spidey turbo mogs at that literally who character. He isn't even the most popular Flash, lmao.
>>153743165Keep standing in the fire, Brevoort
What are we thinking Marvelbros? Wil it improve Marvel comics or nah?
>>153743624This type of shit will probably pan out over a the next year or two or more. No way this guy immediately sees the rot and gains awareness of the faggprty before him.
I fucking wish they would dump that scumbag brev
>>153741331Unironically I think Marvel needs a new diva like Liefeld to just get hired, fuck shit up and cause mental anguish upon all of them and just accelerate the decline.
>>153742522Shut the fuck up, Rob, we don't care about your fucking retweets
>>153743624I'm not optimistic. I've said before it couldn't possibly get worse and it has time and time again.
>>153742454What was wrong with how Pete and MJ's wedding went? They were building them up for years.
>>153743644Brevoort and Cebulski both need to go, but the suits above them who push dogshit page rates and no royalty system for creating characters need to go, too. Nothing is going to get better if Marvel's garbage business practices that Ike Perlmutter shoved down the company's throat aren't rolled back to how things were in the late-80's/early-90's.
Putting aside the issue of who needs to go, who the hell could be put in charger to take their place?
>>153744085This guy. Make him the new EiC.
>>153744085Marvel should do what DC did in the 80's when they made Jeanette Kahn president and publisher and get someone like David Saylor, who's running Scholastic's lucrative YA graphic novel imprint Graphix, then make Kurt Busiek Executive Vice President, similar to the role Paul Levitz served under Kahn at DC in the 80's.
>>153743624Winderbaum greenlighted Bendis selling Ironheart to Mephisto in an MCU TV series so no.
>>153744131To add to this, you'll then have someone at the top who knows the business of publishing and has been very successful and lucrative at it, and have someone else who gives a damn about the books and characters they publish on a personal level.
>>153744131>BusiekI am in favor of this plan
>>153744049There's a Comictropes video about Spidey marriage. Basically Stan Lee want Spidey marriage as quickly as his newspaper stripshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPm5gkrbWmc&pp=0gcJCU8Co7VqN5tD
>>153744208So it's rushed. These books always moved at a breakneck pace.
>>153744208Why was Stan writing the Spider-Man comic strip instead of doing another decade or two on Amazing Spider-Man? It's weird he stopped writing the main book but kept doing the comic strip for decades (though I have no doubt it was being ghost-written the last decade or so of Stan's life). Was it just because there was more prestige to do syndicated comic strips for guys of Lee and Romita Sr's era even though that prestige was basically over by the 80's?
>>153744240>Was it just because there was more prestige to do syndicated comic stripsI think it'd be that (remember that he was born in 1922 so when he was a kid comic strips were highly regarded) and also the fact that you can put your name on a comic strip and have other people work on itAnd yes it was ghost-written by Roy Thomas since like the early 2000s.
>>153743091>improved the collected editions of comics>created the marvel omnibusSo he ruined collected editions.
>>153744353Epic collection is pretty great, but the big issue is that regardless of what format you like, you can't get the fucking things if you don't buy them the second they come out. There is zero reason you shouldn't be able to always get some release of Spider-man.
>>153736991At this point Liefeld being in charge of Marvel would ironically be the best possible thing that could happen to it. Never thought I'd see the day.
Cebulski Next I guess>>153736991The problem is that Feige is puting his lackey , already has in the TV show departmen so I can feel he would love to have full power of the comics as well
>>153744364Him burning it to the ground would be preferable to what we have now.
>>153742525>and now invincible once more.>once moreDude...Invincible was NEVER a major seller when the main comic was running
>>153743165His miniseries written by fucking Lobdell sold more than the main flash(Barry) ongoing.Hell, Williamson spent 2 more years on the book because nobody outside CW flash spics and snyderjets cares about Barry
>>153741688He may be Rob, but he's correct
>>153737644As necessary as it is, fixing Spider-Man isn't going to turn Marvel around as a whole.>>153737691Quesada's regime basically purged most of the old guard, Brevoort was the only one who kept his job and got promoted. There's not much chance of guys like Gru being kept around then, there's a larger chance of them actually driving guys like that to ragequit the company they'd loved.>>153743666Imagine seething about Rob Liefeld so much you can't even accept when he's right about something. Feige obviously has to go too, this has been clear since 2022.
>>153744362As I said earlier, the reason things like Watchmen and Sandman have the influence they do is because DC always has the trades out. Marvel has always been a lot worse in that regard for the most part. The only thing they were good at was always collecting stories from the ongoings which was a Jemas initiative and why there was a big push for six issue arcs but aside from that, yeah not so much. Epics should have larger print runs and go back in print a few months after going out. Also the price needs to be dropped back to $40.But I suspect that's a corporate thing. Marvel right now loves playing up the FOMO shit with variants so I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing a Disney Vault style deal with Epics.
>>153737644Every Marvel property is as shambolic as Spider-Man you niggers aren't special
>>153738658Modern Marvel is weirdly obsessed with their superheroes being satanist.
>>153743006Which is funny since the movies people cares about are mostly about classic pre-2000 superheroes, with Captain Falcon, Captain Danvers, GL Khan etc being in a absolute state of flop.You just know they are not regretting replacing Miles with Peter lmao.
>>153744240>>153744313Also, Lee was no longer in New York by 1981and>even though that prestige was basically over by the 80's?Comic strips' prestige were way lower in the 80s compared to the prestige of comics strips during Stan's childhood, but they were still at that point more prestigious than comic books because general audiences were still reading them. In the 1980s there was still way more people who've read The Far Side and Calvin and Hobbes than read Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns.
>>153742454The Lois and Clark marriage was just as much of a last minute "we have to do this before the show does" as the Spider-Marriage.>>153744049It wasn't. Peter proposed to Mary Jane in 1978 and she turned it down. Then she left the comic and didn't appear again until 1983 when Roger Stern brought her back to be a spoiler for another relationship Peter was involved with at the time. She stuck around, but only as a friend. He was living/sleeping with Black Cat when Shooter demanded the marriage, so they had to break them up and write out Felicia one month and have Peter and MJ suddenly get engaged the next.
>>153745657and yet it was built better, the bullshit cuckoldery was all on damn dildo and his shitty ww clark fanfic, he even ruined his career as his fag fren quesada did.
>>153743107and the tradeoff, even if caused the edgelord hopeless events that came after worldwide, paid off.
>>153737644Fixing Spider-Man would require a reimagining as extensive as Toho's new Godzillla movies
>>153737729>>153737996So you're saying Spidey needs to defeat an Evil Peter from the future first before he can be happy?
>>153744922It shows a growing issue in the industry, the ignorance of marquee value
>>153744922Captain Marvel was never not a flop at Marvel. Not the original, not the Peter Davis legacy series. Carol being rebranded as Captain rather than Mizz was an entirely workable route, they just kinda sanded down all the harsh bits that made her popular in Busiek's Avengers and afterwards.
>>153746331
>>153746340
>>153737045Youngblood v3 skipped #11-13 and jumped to #14 for some reason. As for the current run, see you next year. Liefeld's brain should be studied.
>>153744890Welcome to the new world order anon.
>>153739974Oh we get it. Its just fucking awful and everyone hates it and marvel for not only letting it continue but protecting something that permanently ruins not only spiderman but marvel to do it.
>>153746240This is what the carolfags believe
>>153746423The number of people who have been confused by that page recently and calling it a "new retcon" shows that they don't get it.
>>153744922MCU peter is litterally miles in white face. Even has the 20/10 ethnic MILF as his aunt may/mother.
>>153746340“Go come back?”What does that mean?Would LucasFilm actually let Marvel crossover with Star Wars?
>>153746240It was never going to work with how they reimagined her for non-comic readomg hr ladies, queers, and loser foidz.They needed to just give her a military stle waist jacket and full leotard at most. Not have her go full military dyke and remove her canon PAWG status.
>>153746512I will tell you a secret DC learned ages agoMilitary characters don't sell
>>153746446*had
>>153746433Nah dog, the last Carol book I enjoyed was the House of M/Civil War era Ms Marvel that had her as kind of a fuckup government stooge, but which sold Captain Danvers by having her fight fucking Judas Traveller in House of M, and a fake Skrull Captain Marr-vell.
>>153746436Anon...they is litterally them ttying and failing to expand on the single worst decision marvel ever did and make it SEEM like its not as bad.Its still the single biggest fuck up in comics history.
>>153746512She’ll never go full leotard ever again. Just give it up already.
>>153746550>She'll never be popularWe knowWe know
>>153739224>quotaverseLol based Rob doesn't cut 'em no slack
>>153741851Or they could try the Shooter way: pushing for GOOD books.
>>153743006>Feige wanted replacement heroes and diverse heroes in part to solve the issue of retiring characters and replacing those actors in the MCU. Hence why the 2010s comics went all in on replacement heroes, diverse heroes, creating hero families and trying to legacy character Marvel heroes.I think that started before the Disney buyout and the MCU being really a thing, though. The first wave just flopped hard and they didn't immediately double down.
>>153744131>woman in chargeNever ends well.
>>153744364>>153744433He's just a big boy who likes cool stuff. It could unironically be great for the comics.
Chris Fondacaro is out now too.https://bleedingcool.com/comics/chris-fondacaro-executive-vp-head-of-marvel-franchise-is-out/
>>153746542I'm telling you you're wrong. This is always how it's been. It's obvious if you think about it for a few seconds. With his marriage erased from history, Peter had nothing to bargain with when time looped back around again to when May got shot. This timeline's Peter never made a bargain with Mephisto, a previous version of himself did.
>>153741691Scarlet Witch coom comics. Minis are six issues. Every book goes for twenty four issues. X-Men and Spider-Man lines get three or four books.
>>153747627Of course one of the dumbest creators alive would hype up his speculator slop as opposed to stories with good writing and art.
>>153746824>Or they could try the Shooter way: pushing for GOOD books.Shooter did plenty of retarded shit, he just gets fellated here because he was mean to those dirty hippies. Thanks to him we have>line wide crossovers>characters coming back from the dead
>>153747718>Scarlet Witch coom comics.Put this man in charge of Marvel.
>>153747763It's up to the readers to reject bad ideas by refusing to pay for them. He followed the money.
>>153747707He did. Mephisto went back in time as a pigeon and stopped Peter from attending the wedding. Then Aunt May was healed by the deal down the line. The "Peter never made a deal with Mephisto" thing was a headcanon from Quesada that has already long been gone into pasture. Spider-Man/Deadpool and Spencer's run all remain showing the deal happened and is in place, down to One More Day literally being referenced in Wells' run in the Spider-Goblin storyline.
>>153747763>line wide crossoversThese aren't inherently good or bad, it's all in the execution.>characters coming back from the deadIf you want a stop to that, maybe you should think things through and demand that writers not be allowed to kill characters either. But you people always want the SOMEONE DIES!!! stories.
>>153747799Okay well then don't bitch when Marvel puts out another event that interrupts the book you're reading or when a character gets resurrected a week after they died forever we're serious this time guize
>>153747801The deal happened in previous timeline, not this one. They told Spencer to fuck off likely on account of this very reason once they caught on to what he was doing.>One More Day literally being referenced in Wells' run in the Spider-Goblin storyline.What was this specifically?
>>153747824>maybe you should think things through and demand that writers not be allowed to kill characters eitherShooter was the one who demanded that Jean face graver consequences for destroying the planet of broccoli people, in exasperation Claremont and Byrne said "well let's just kill her then" and Shooter liked the idea and forced them to do it. Then a few years demanded she be resurrected for the lame X-Factor book no one wanted
>>153747707Anon. Its over.Only having mephisto start gaining power leading to a multicomic event centering around spiderman can fix it.Just full company wide reboot using only the most well liled storylines, fan favorote versions of characters and shit canning any writer or editor who is ahaknst it cause their fuck awful stories and royalty bait characterzls will be rightfully binned.
>>153747837Nah. The Mephisto-ness of it all permeated the entire run. Undoing the deal is what was seen as problematic. If there is no deal, then there is no pigeon Mephisto stopping Peter from getting married, and there is literally nothing healing aunt May from death's door after she gets shot.>What was this specifically?Showing the exact panel of him and MJ hugging it out when the deal's about to take place.
>>153747824>But you people always want the SOMEONE DIES!!! storiesProvide one single example of any fan saying "this story would be a lot better if someone died"
>>153747707Spencer undid all of that in his run, Mephisto remembers making the deal, he revealed there's a future where Mayday Parker defeats him and he wanted to prevent that. Peter, Strange and MJ remember the OMIT timeline, but OMD is still canon and is remembered by Mysterio, the Harry Osborn Supercomputer and Mephisto. READ A COMIC
>>153747856It its first three years of publication, X-Factor was selling over 300,000 copies a month. The comic buyers spoke with their wallets.
>>153747730He's not exactly wrong. Marvel was pushing a lot of creative spins on characters and making controversial swings that wouldn't be seen for decades since
>>153747899And how much was regular X-Men selling?
>>153747863Nah, they can easily change things on whims, just like Peter and Mary Jane were suddenly married on the EiC's whim.>>153747876There's no deal to undo. There's no magic stopping them from getting married again. "Actually you've been married all along" would make the past 20 years of Spider-Man stories rather awkward, moreso than "They were just living together for 20 years.">Showing the exact panel of him and MJ hugging it out when the deal's about to take place.Eh, art reuse/copying, that doesn't mean anything.>>153747891I never suggested that Mephisto ever forgot. He exists outside these timelines. He wouldn't make a bargain for something that got him nothing. Spencer undid nothing.
>>153747937>that wouldn't be seen for decades sinceThe Jemas/Quesada bankruptcy years took bigger swings with things like Marvel Knights, MAX, Morrison's X-Men, and JMS Spider-Man. But we don't talk about that here because Quesada is the devil for OMD. Liefeld's era arguably was the last that tried to tap into that preteen boy market but claiming it's the last time anyone cared about Marvel is silly
>>153747957>There's no deal to undo.>If there is no deal, then there is no pigeon Mephisto stopping Peter from getting married, and there is literally nothing healing aunt May from death's door after she gets shot.It's still there due to its effects, and Marvel has treated it this way ever since Spider-Man/Deadpool well around '13. Sorry you can't reconcile it.
>>153747939The monthly average of the top five books of 1986Mad 742,743Transformers 436,312X-Men 430,158New Mutants 368,964X-Factor 340,8501987Mad 763,335X-Men 420,000 (est.)X-Factor 311,600Amazing Spider-Man 271,100Web of Spider-Man 238,1151988Mad 784,206X-Men 408,925Excalibur 317,320Wolverine 308,675X-Factor 297,575X-Factor may have been a lousy book, but there was a ton of demand for it. The masses want slop, always have.
>>153747827I don't do either of those things, because I accept the realities of the industry as it is.>>153747856Things only got to the point where Shooter demanded "graver consequences" because an artist went off-script and nobody did anything about it. If the editor had been doing his job that comic would never have been published.>>153747882Don't be disingenuous. Look at how many of Marvel and DC's "greatest" and "most important" stories are considered so because someone died. Look at how many stories that are trying to make themselves important tend to kill a character almost out of obligation to make things "matter", and how people eat that crap up then start bitching when that character comes back from.
>>153744458The battle of the tallest pygmy. In the end, Spider-Man legacy turbo mogs both of them.
>>153747985>X-Factor may have been a lousy book, but there was a ton of demand for it. The masses want slop, always have.But if Shooter is the best thing to ever happen to comics shouldn't he have put his foot down and said "we're not resurrecting Jean Grey" and used Dazzler like the original plan? Was anyone buying the book for Jean Grey? Was she really that popular a character outside Phoenix that it was worth starting the "dead doesn't mean dead" trend?
>>153747968>The Jemas/Quesada bankruptcy years took bigger swingsThose weren't really big swings so much as they were kicking off things fans wanted.Peter and MJ back together.Punisher in his own universe tearing things up instead of running around with capes so the things he does finally makes sense.MK line being a touch edgier. These are big swings in the same way putting out Renew Your Vows was a big swing.
>>153748017>Look at how many of Marvel and DC's "greatest" and "most important" stories are considered so because someone died.Name one story that is lauded just because someone died. One example of someone saying "this story was great because this character died"
>>153747627Reminder: Image FIRED Rob Liefeld.
>>153748028Characters came back from the dead long before Jean dead. They promoted Xavier dying as the real thing back in 1968. Nearly two years later, nope, it was a hoax.
>>153748036>Those weren't really big swings so much as they were kicking off things fans wantedSomebody wasn't on message boards when these things happened. Especially when Morrison's X-Men was announced. Also Peter and MJ didn't get back together until two years into JMS's run
>>153748057Crisis on Infinite Earths. It's a very lousy, poorly paced, gratuitously edgy story but for decades it keeps getting hyped up as an important story because of Flash, Supergirl, and the end of the multiverse. All three eventually came back.
>>153747985Jesus, Transformers got quite the bump from the movie coming out.Also, X-Factor was only really lousy for the first few months, until Louise Simonson took over the writing.
>>153748073No one cared about Xavier. Especially in pre-Claremont X-Men comics. Jean coming back from the dead was the first time a major comic book death was undone for no story reason
>>153741691my opinion is worth less than nothing since I'm not very well-versed in current industry bullshit but I might as well give it a shot>Cull almost all of the X-Books. One book for the main team, another for the young up-and-comers, maybe a third for Captain Britain/Excalibur stuff. That's it. (Also a Wolverine solo I guess, but he's sort of outgrown the X-Men imo so wasn't thinking of it)>Fire Cebulski, Lowe, Brevoort. Also fire Slott, Fraction, Aaron, and any other writers that qualify as sales poison in the eyes of older readers.>Invest fuck tons of cash into advertising new writing and art positions open at Marvel. Target areas where younger creatives will be hanging out (social media, message boards, fanfic sites). Revamp royalty and character rights to encourage the creation of new heroes/villains>Bring back anthologies. Make a Marvel Fanfare successor for stories across the universe + fan interactions, pair it with Cosmic and Magic-specific anthologies to pander to fans of those parts of the universe>GET RID OF THE SLIDING TIMESCALE. It has done so much damage to the setting it's insane. Let the heroes age and have them be succeeded by new characters. Time travel bullshit can always bring back the older guys if needed, and multiple A-Listers are already immortal (Wolverine, Thor) so it's not an issue for them>Decade-long pause on full-line crossovers/events. Keep events relegated to certain corners of the universe (ala Annihilation) and keep them rare.>Tone down the multiverse focus, keep things centered on fixing 616 for a while. Keep alternate universes to what-if one-shots/mini-series, only expand on them if they sell well. Make traveling between alternate universes extremely hard instead of just another Tuesday; keep it easier for characters like Captain Britain or Dr. Strange since that's part of their appeal, but still tough>Stop relaunching shit as a rule, let books continue for years to rebuild trust
>>153748028>it was worth starting the "dead doesn't mean dead" trend?Alfred Pennyworth, Professor X, and Wonder Man were all part of that trend before the 80s, anon.>>153748057We're literally talking about Dark Phoenix here, the story that turned X-Men into a hit because SOMEONE DIED, and is still to this day inspiring screeching because a character literally named Phoenix didn't stay dead.
>>153748094>It's a very lousy, poorly paced, gratuitously edgy storySo you just have shit taste. Makes sense. People like Crisis because its a good story with George Perez doing the art. It'd be as remembered today even without the deaths. And considering DC still keeps it in print after Kara and Barry came back from the dead shows that
>>153748105>it was the first time it happened in something I cared aboutSorry, can't hear you over the sound of the goalposts moving.
>>153748119Wonder Man?! WONDER MAN?! Are you seriously trying to say WONDER MAN's death was a big deal??
>>153748105Batman's butler Alfred had a dramatic death in 1964 and they brought him back two years later because he was a major character on the tv show.
>>153748121It's some of Perez's worst work. Everything's cramped. They keep it in print because it's "important."
>>153748067No, he quit before they could. And none of that has any relevance to him being right in what he's saying about Marvel. Doesn't matter if you think he's a stopped clock or you think he doesn't miss, only a paid Marvel shill would think he's wrong.
>>153748137His being very dead was of significant importance to the backstory of several other characters in Avengers, and he'd been dead for over ten years, and got brought back allegedly just because of a spat between Marvel and DC. It was absolutely of significance in 'dead doesn't mean dead'.
>>153748159He's right, it's just hard to take him seriously because he comes off as someone with an ax to grind rather than someone without any skin in the game who's observed these things. Which sucks because Marvel absolutely needs someone on their ass about their output but Liefeld is like the worst person to do it. It's like a Klansman making a stink about Main Street being full of potholes. It's like yeah, thanks, but could we get support from someone else?
>>153748199>backstory of several other characters in AvengersI hate to tell you this but only old uncs cared about Avengers until Bendis
>>153748094I'd argue it wasnt important for the dying so much as for the fact that it essentially set the paradigm for the next 20 years worth of DC. Like, you used to talk about Pre-Crisis DC and Post-Crisis DC, because it was a meaningful distinction.
>>153748251No one talks about Flashpoint the way they talk about the Crisis. Without the Big Deaths, it's a nothing story.Similar thing applies to Zero Hour (no one cares) and Infinite Crisis (people care a lot about Superboy and all the others killed).
>>153748159My point is that a)he's pointing to the fucking Collector's Boom peak as though Marvel isn't already doing that shit with variant cover crap and b)he is demonstrably fucking TERRIBLE at running a comic book company.
>>153748226>Bendis shillingI hate to tell you this but you're retarded. That's not even the best-selling Avengers run.
>>153748309You're right, Liefeld's Avengers is the best selling Avengers. Really tells you something.
>>153748292People don't talk about Flashpoint, Zero Hour, or Infinite Crisis like they do about Crisis on Infinite Earths because the stories are no where near as good.
>>153748336They're all dumb slop of comparable quality. There was nothing particularly interesting about the Monitor or the conflict in Crisis. It would have been another Secret Wars if it didn't have those big deaths.
>>153748363t.
>>153748296>he's pointing to the fucking Collector's Boom peakThose books were also artist-driven books by guys who were really popular back then. And the industry reacted by refusing to ever allow artists to become stars like that ever again, which means nothing like that will ever be possible again.>he is demonstrably fucking TERRIBLE at running a comic book company.In fairness, Extreme ended because of the split with Image, not because of his abilities at running the company. Maximum was basically shut down so he could start Awesome as a new venture with Loeb and some big money investors, and Awesome fell apart when one of those investors suddenly pulled out, IIRC that's basically the same way Crossgen died.
>>153748324Outside of a few years in the early to mid 90s, Avengers has always veered between being an A- or B-tier title depending on who's on the team and who's working on the book. This whole fake narrative that it was always a C-tier title nobody ever cared about is the fanfiction of people salty about the MCU making the Avengers popular with normies.
>>153748427>And the industry reacted by refusing to ever allow artists to become stars like that ever again, which means nothing like that will ever be possible again.Fair, given how ungrateful they were. If they're so good, then they don't need Marvel to give them a leg up anymore.
>>153744116Have I missed something? I've seen more people mention Marc Sumerak in the last few months than I have in years. Does he even still work in comics?
>>153748458>This whole fake narrative that it was always a C-tier title nobody ever cared about is the fanfiction of people salty about the MCU making the Avengers popular with normies.As someone who grew up in the 90s and was an avid comic reader they were absolutely the C-tier team. X-Men was the cool shit, the Avengers was the book old people liked with their bylaws and their charters and all that lame shit, it was like your dad's friar's club. There's a reason Sony laughed when they were offered the Avengers characters for only a few million in the early 2000s.
>>153748474Why are you posting pages from a movie script like it's exactly what happened so you can be mad at them about what they said in a dramatization of events? And also why are you talking like you're a Marvel employee who's still angry in 2026 about freelancers leaving the company in 1992?
>>153748515Rob Liefeld is the guy who wrote that script and put it on the internet, it's from his pro-Image artist perspective.
>>153747627The strongest era was middle Shooter era, with Micheliene/Oneil Iron man, Stern Spiderman and avengers, Clareont Xmen, Byrne Xmen, PAD hulk , Miller daredevil.
>>153748514
>>153748514You're focusing on that period in the 90s which that anon already addressed. Yeah, Avengers and the FF declined hard in the 90s as the company became more and more of a Mutants and Spider-Man company, but they were popular in the 70s and 80s.
>>153748514>I'm a 90s kid andYou're talking about exactly the period I just mentioned, and acting like that's the way things had always been, you dumbass. You're like those people who got into Marvel in the early 90s and think Ghost Rider and Punisher were always more popular than most of the 60s characters just because they were popular in the early 90s.Avenger was selling like an A-tier book again by 1996 and here you are pretending nobody cared. At least the mask slipped and you admitted you're an X-fag, nobody else bitches about the Avengers as hard as an X-fag.>There's a reason Sony laughed when they were offered the Avengers characters for only a few million in the early 2000s.>things that didn't happenThe only Avengers-related character Sony were involved with was Thor.
>>153745657>The Lois and Clark marriage was just as much of a last minute "we have to do this before the show does"False, the comics even delayed the marriage to let it coincide with the TV show. That is why they pitched the whole Death, Reign and Return storyline. It was a buffer of time until the show would do the marriage storyline.
>>153748292Crisis was the first big Story-as-Retcon excuse. All the others were variants on the same concept. Being the first one means its the example.
>>153747763>characters coming back from the deadNot a problem, mainly for this >>153747824Crossovers can be cool, sparingly. Also for whatever retardation he did, I'm not denying, Shooter kept some writer retardation on a leash, that's one reason we love the guy here.>>153747856>>153748028>Then a few years demanded she be resurrected for the lame X-Factor book no one wantedFans of the original X-Men were eating good with that, and the iconic 90s version of X-Men wouldn't exist without it. Good move, if you ask me.>>153747968>But we don't talk about that here because Quesada is the devil for OMD.Yeah let's pretend most of Marvel wasn't absolute SHIT. The good stuff got published mostly because he was busy looking the other way, trying to promote his shitty little pet writers as the big deal.>>153747627Rob, you were on a good streak, but come the fuck on. You don't get to ignore earlier 80s Marvel gold that propped this up to even happen.>>153747404Oh wow the train keeps going
>>153748531And it's still just a movie script. Posting it and pretending it's what actually happened is dumb. Posting it, pretending it's what actually happened, and getting mad at the actual people for what's said in that script is just retarded. You don't even have to look very hard online to find the things Todd and Erik were actually saying about Marvel in their own words back then, but you're using this to get mad at them instead?
>>153748644https://www.cbr.com/superman-lois-clark-tv-series-wedding-hurry/ goes into it, the show was being cagey about actually doing it. And when it happened it was a spur of the moment thing in an attempt to boost sagging ratings. There was no long-term planning.
>>153748458Man I used to read 80s Avengers mainly from being a Cap fan, but even I gotta stop for a bit to consider if they were B-tier in popularity.
>>153748703Larsen was a big enough of a jerkwad that I believe Liefeld's account of McFarlane's behavior as accurate https://web.archive.org/web/20040113000748/https://members.tripod.com/fantom_dragonfan/namewh.html
>>153748772By 1979, Avengers was outselling every single DC book on the stands. People cared more about the Avengers than they did Superman and Batman.
>>153748584Not really. Avengers were kind of lame in the 80s. Just unc slop with prestige but unpopular heroes. Even in the 60s and 70s spiderman was the bankable face of marvel.
>>153748637>The only Avengers-related character Sony were involved with was ThorMarvel offered the whole catalog they owned (the characters that made up the original MCU movies) for like a hundred million and Sony laughed in their faces, saying Spider-Man was the only one of value.
>>153748159He is wrong because he was assblasted that nobody in the MCU wanted to hire his son Chase as a nepohire actor.
>>153746867Anon suggested Dave Saylor for the role, he just used a historic example of women to prove why it might work
>>153744240>I have no doubt it was being ghost-written the last decade or so of Stan's lifeDidn't Roy Thomas confirm this to be the case?
>>153748840>the lame team from a more popular company was selling better than the lame characters from a lame company
>>153741582>Brevoort basically smugly/condescendingly told Kirkman "good luck with your post-Marvel career" in a way that essentially meant he thought Kirkman was going to be a failure without MarvelKarma karmae.
>>153741691Fire all the sjws. Tell guards to shoot them if they are close to the building. Moore, Morrison. THis is your home. Feel free to come and write wonderful stories with our characters. Do whatever you want with them. Oh, and could you solve the OMD mess, please?Real continuity. Characters will grow old and die. And they won't appear in more than 2 series.No more decompressed narrative.No more Ultimate universe.90s characters: kill them off. Fuck Cable, Deadpool and all that shit.Creative Commons licenses for all Marvel products.Epic Illustrated v2. European and Latin American stories.Spanish translations of books. It's the second language of the US!Republish pre-1990 material and let 90s books rot in the cellar.Punisher out of 616 universe.Give Moon Knight a decent writer, for Jack's sake.Don't charge more than 2 $ per issue.More translations of foreign material (yes, including manga)A Vertigo-like collection.Fuck crossovers and events.Less splash pages. We are telling a story, you know.Aunt may dies forever.Iron man: he fell into a puddle and got rust. Killed off or a B-list again.Writers and artists keep the copyright every time they create a new character.Characters can smoke or take drugs if necessary or cool.Put the ads at the end of the story. No more interruptions.
>>153748696>Yeah let's pretend most of Marvel wasn't absolute SHIT. The good stuff got published mostly because he was busy looking the other way, trying to promote his shitty little pet writers as the big deal.Anon, you need to understand that someone who made bad decisions could still make good decisions without having to make excuses...people aren't black or white, good or bad, smart or dumb, you can have cases of somewhere in the middle. I know this is hard for /co/ to grasp for some reason.
>>153748427He lost the rights of Youngblood because he was too stupid to read the fine print. He is the least qualified people to talk shit about how others operate an IP.
Can't imagine still being a Marvel fan in the big 2026, when both DC and more niche publishers are pumping out far better books.
>>153746476There was a rumour that Mark Millar was writing an Avengers Star Wars Crossover
>>153749239>people aren't good or bad>smart or dumbAnon...
>>153749296I think that was a rumor started by Mark Millar and pushed by Millar buddy Rich Johnston, it's several years old and nothing's ever come of it
>>153748708The article specifically said how the show airing caused to DC change their plans about a marriage... The article basically reduces to explain DC waiting for the show to do it, so they can finally do the same.
>>1537488741980Mad 1,094,085X-Men 259,607Amazing Spider-Man 242,781Star Wars 229,901Avengers 221,3941981Mad 1,001,724X-Men 313,225Amazing Spider-Man 240,683Fantastic Four 234,043Avengers 223,3351982Mad 879,075X-Men 336,824Daredevil 259,745Fantastic Four 257,298Amazing Spider-Man 241,762Avengers 229,6451983Mad 783,192X-Men 393,000 (est.)Fantastic Four 268,568Amazing Spider-Man 261,064 (sales at sales-year end: 312,904)Avengers 241,4631984Mad 744,817X-Men 449,780Amazing Spider-Man 326,695G. I. Joe 290,080Fantastic Four 264,760Spectacular Spider-Man 247,196Avengers 241,966Unless you were a casual who only ever picked up X-Men, Spider-Man, and the 80s flavor of the month, the Avengers were a big deal. Just not the biggest.
>>153749239>>153749337But you know what, let's go more into it. Antagonizing fans? Character replacements nobody liked and they doubled down? Edgyfication? All in his shift. Marvel wouldn't be anywhere near as deep in a hole, even now, if it weren't for his retardation.But >>153747968 claims we hate him here "oh just because OMD". Hell the swings the same anon mentioned were already a big part of the problem. There's fucking nothing salvageable in morrison X-Men, JMS Spider-Man includes gems like Sins Past and The Other, Marvel Knights includes shit like the Dr. Strange Matrix ripoff that unfortunately seems to have influenced the movie, and MAX was a seal that honestly added nothing to the table, it's a shame that Punisher adaptations keep pointing back to it. Marvel in general got ruined by the shitty writers he brought in getting the keys of the house and editors being pushed down to where they couldn't even do much if they WANTED or cared just enough.
>>153746446>MCU peter is litterally miles in white faceThat's my point. The writing was definitly made with Miles in mind, but they used Peter instead.
>>153749528>There's fucking nothing salvageable in Morrison X-Men>MAX was a seal that honestly added nothing to the table, it's a shame that Punisher adaptations keep pointing back to it
>>153749470>Unless you were a casual who only ever picked up X-Men, Spider-Man, and the 80s flavor of the month, the Avengers were a big dealYes, anon, the Avengers were a big deal to the old people reading comics. We've already established that. But just because the old people reading comics likes something doesn't mean they're A-list
>>153749528>here's fucking nothing salvageable in morrison X-Men, JMS Spider-Man includes gems like Sins Past and The Other, Marvel Knights includes shit like the Dr. Strange Matrix ripoff that unfortunately seems to have influenced the movie, and MAX was a seal that honestly added nothing to the table, it's a shame that Punisher adaptations keep pointing back to it. Marvel in general got ruined by the shitty writers he brought in getting the keys of the house and editors being pushed down to where they couldn't even do much if they WANTED or cared just enough.Are you a fan of the Busiek/Perez Avengers run?
>>153749803>the Busiek/Perez Avengers runNTA but that was the last time Avengers were worth reading.
>>153749657A lot of his character have been brought up but not the best one megatonic toonage warbird
>>153749880Anyone who gets that mad about the Quesada era always seems to hold the Busiek/Perez run on Avengers to a super high regard because the Quesada era moved away from the unc comics that were best represented by that run. Boring, overwrought drama with stuff only a dad would think is cool.
>>153747968JMS Spiderman although better than 90s , was the first steps from the destruction of Peter Parker, he was the first that followed the trend that the suporting cast should be ignored.Morrison Xmen most of the problems is cyclops and wolverine, claremont fans being mad at Xorn is stupid when before that Magneto did worse things. MAX was mostly shit that people defend because punisherMarvel Knights although has some gems(flower for rhino and the thousand) it ruined many character (daredevil, Strange,...), without the nostalgia the brand become nothing like we are seeing in the current MK minis.>>153749528Quesada problem was that he fired all the old and new editors (except Brevoort) so he filled the brand with hacks.>Once I settled in as the new EIC, I scheduled individual meetings with each member of the editorial staff. New culture, new rules of engagement, a chance to take everyone’s temperature.I only really remember one of those meetings.>A young editor walked in. Originally hired by Bob. He sat down calmly, crossed his legs, and just as I was about to talk, he held up his hand.>“Before you start, permission to speak freely?”>“Sure. Go ahead.”>He looked me dead in the eye.>“You don’t deserve to be sitting in that chair.”>“I’m sorry, what?”>“You don’t deserve that chair. You’ve never been part of this company. You don’t know how things work here, and you don’t have the editorial experience for this job. You haven’t earned it.”>I was taken so aback I didn’t know what to say. On one hand, I admired the brass. On the other, I thought this probably wasn’t the best strategy for someone who wanted to keep their job.>I didn’t bother pointing out that I’d been in the industry for ten years and editing books for five of them. It wouldn’t have mattered. He was upset that Bob was gone and that someone on the inside hadn’t gotten the job.>I let him vent. We finished the meeting. He went on his way.
>>153750017>Boring, overwrought drama with stuff only a dad would think is cool.OK, Bendis.
>>153750017>Boring, overwrought drama with stuff only a dad would think is cool.People think that about the Quesada era now, unc.
>>153750017Quesada bootlickers are insane.We get it, people started reading comics with Bendis daredevil or Avengers, but never go full retard
>>153750061>Our teammate Warbird is consuming alcohol!>This is in direct violation of our bylaws outlined in our charter!>We must all now vote to deactivate her membership card!>As a former alcoholic I'd be a hypocrite if I voted "Yay"! but I must consider my duties as an Avenger and vote to have her removed from our team!I don't know what happened next because I fucking fell asleep.
>>153750097>>153750140>t. uncs who never grew out of the Bronze Age
>>153750161>I FELL ASLEEP BECAUSE I AM ILLITERATEWhy is every unc who jerks off to the Quesada era like this? Zoomers are actually reading old comics and Gen X losers like these always brag about preferring Bendis writing
>>153750179>unc who never developed anything better than an elementary school reading ability
>>153735751It's still not enough, this is going to be "meet the new boss same as the old boss".The entirety of Marvel Editorial needs to be gutted and its culture deracinated to course correct the ship.This DOES, however, confirm my suspicions that Armageddon is likely the start of a universal reboot of some kind but rather than fixing issues with Spider-Man, the X-Men, Cosmic Marvel, etc. it will likely be more forced corporate and inorganic MCU Synergy garbage.That's also why I think Disney doesn't give a shit about X-Men '97 Season 2 because they want things to mesh more with the Phase 7 introductions (presuming it survives the double-whammy Doomsday/Secret Wars underperforming).
>>153750161>Warbird is consuming alcoholShe was an alcoholic , and seeing how went for Stark, would be insane letting her on mission.Next you are gonna tell us that Bennis avengers disassembled was better than Stern's Invasion of Avengers Mansion
>>153750219>THIS BORING AS FUCK STORY ISN'T BORING YOU'RE JUST ILLITERATE
>>153750561Yes.
>>153735751Maybe the new leadership will consider hiring editors.
>>153750691Right now a huge part of the problem is editors like Brevoort.
>>153750691Many of the current editor are from Quesada era, so I doubt it.Would mind that Quesadism is done and finally failed.
>>153750742That's the joke.
>>153750756It's not that everything Quesada implemented was bad, but it's weird to keep doubling down on business practices from two decades ago and not pivot or adjust based on a fluctuating market and consumer interests. Hell, at least the Quesada era paid for some AAA talent to work on Marvel books, and did some crazy things they'd never do now (Strange Tales with a bunch of alt. comics creators, Gary Panter doing the cover and interiors of the Omega the Unknown reboot, etc)
>>153750490Yeah but talking about bylaws and charters and membership cards is fucking lame as fuck. And I was actually a big Bendis fan until Avengers Disassembled where he shit the bed and proved he can't write team books.
>>153748057>Amazing Fantasy #15 (Ben Parker dies)>The Amazing Spider-Man #90 (George Stacy Dies)>The Amazing Spider-Man #121: The Night Gwen Stacy Died>The Amazing Spider-Man #122 (Green Goblin's death was directly adapted in Sam Raimi's 2002 movie) >The Amazing Spider-Man #400 (before the pussies at Marvel got cold feet and retconned May's death)>The Spectacular Spider-Man #200 (Harry Osborn dies)>The Death of Jean DeWolffe>Dark Phoenix Saga (Jean Grey dies)>A Death in the Family (Joker murders Jason Todd)>Detective Comics #33 (1939) (Thomas and Martha Wayne died as the impetus for Bruce becoming Batman)>Kraven's Last Hunt (Kraven dies)>The Dark Knight Returns (The Joker finally dies for good)>Batman Incorporated Vol. 2 #8 (The Heretic kills Damian)>Batman Vol. 3 #77 (Bane kills Alfred)>The Judas Contract (1984) (Terra dies)>Superior Spider-Man (Peter dies in Otto's body at the beginning so the Superior Spider-Man can replace him)>Avengers #500: Disassembled (Scarlet Witch goes on a reality warping killing spree the resurrects and re-kills Jack of Hearts, kills Ant-Man, Vision, Hawkeye and Agatha Harkness)>House of M (Scarlet Witch kills hundreds of Mutants in lethal predicaments once they lose their powers)>Avengers vs. X-Men (Phoenix Five Cyclops kills Professor X)>The Amazing Spider-Man #631: Shed (Curt Connors / The Lizard eats his son Billy alive)>Watchmen (Comedian and Rorschach die)>Daredevil #181 (Bullseye kills Elektra Natchios)>Marvel Civil War (I) (2006-2007) (612 civilians including 60 children at ground zero were murdered by Nitro, Clor murders Bill Foster and Captain America was killed by Crossbones and a brainwashed Sharon Carter)>Daredevil: Born Again (Karen Page dies)>Immortal Hulk>Spawn>Deadman>Blackest Night
>>153750219>Zoomers are actually reading old comics and Gen X losers like these always brag about preferring Bendis writingOh yeah those old Avengers trades were flying off the shelf back when people cared about the MCU
>>153751189>Batman Incorporated Vol. 2 #8 (The Heretic kills Damian)>>Batman Vol. 3 #77 (Bane kills Alfred)>>Superior Spider-Man (Peter dies in Otto's body at the beginning so the Superior Spider-Man can replace him)>>Avengers #500: Disassembled (Scarlet Witch goes on a reality warping killing spree the resurrects and re-kills Jack of Hearts, kills Ant-Man, Vision, Hawkeye and Agatha Harkness)>>House of M (Scarlet Witch kills hundreds of Mutants in lethal predicaments once they lose their powers)>>Avengers vs. X-Men (Phoenix Five Cyclops kills Professor X)>>The Amazing Spider-Man #631: Shed (Curt Connors / The Lizard eats his son Billy alive)>>Marvel Civil War (I) (2006-2007) (612 civilians including 60 children at ground zero were murdered by Nitro, Clor murders Bill Foster and Captain America was killed by Crossbones and a brainwashed Sharon Carter)Lauded?
>>153744864Even as a collector of them it really kills my urge to go out of the way to get more when I know I'll have gaps. Less popular obscure characters would be one thing but not their A listers. Epic would be a perfect way to keep the series in people's view point, give them and something to read
>>153751248Quesada and Alonso-era Avengers trades didn't sell either. Marvel had a problem selling Avengers at a time when the MCU was big
>>153744864Are they really $60 fucking dollars now? I could never imagine paying that much for a fucking softcover
>>153751488It's baffling that despite super heroes never being more mainstream it didn't carry over into the comics. When I was a kid everyone who watched the cartoons couldn't get from school to the comic shop fast enough. >>153751642You can get them a lot cheaper if you go to direct market retailers, typically around 25-35 but when the DC finests are not just thicker but also more reliably cheaper it's just retarded they don't try to match.
>>153751662>It's baffling that despite super heroes never being more mainstream it didn't carry over into the comicsIt's really weird that, like, no Marvel mainstream thing can seem to get people into comic stores. When the first Batman came out it was a huge boost to comic stores. Even the newest Superman movie brought people into comic stores. But I don't think a single Marvel movie ever brought anyone into a comic store even going back to the first X-Men
>>153751789I've seen some uptake during the Raimi Spidey movies but nothing compared to how much the cartoons brought int. I wonder if it might be just an issue of the medium in general. A movie might see a quit spike in popularity but the movies are spread to far apart. You watch the tv show and you're coming back week after week. You're building a habit and comics aren't that different. Getting a new episode or a new comic in the middle or end of the week was a great way to feed your need.
>>153751789I get why X-Men would have not bred new comic book readers- there's a bit of snide contempt for the old funny books in those movies, with the black leather and such.The MCU was a bit better about that, but also launched during an era of big stupid crossovers about heroes fighting heroes for dumb reasons.
>>153735751>Marvel has to undergo major restructuring because the old guard thought they could coast along sucking ass at their jobs because of "muh Disney money".Yup yup, looks like DC wins again!
>>153752130Until Spyglass starts making cuts at DC to deal with debt.
>>153748513He's the writer for Marvel Rivals. He might make for a good EIC, who knows?>>153744204The problem is that Busiek is 65 and at that age I doubt he wants to that kind of a job. Levitz was in his early 30s AND had worked as an editor (it's what he started as actually) when he got his big promotion and Marvel doesn't really have that kind of a pipeline anymore as every position is too segregated. In that respect someone like Sumerak may actually make for a good replacement for Cebulski because he has experience on both sides of the writer/editor line, isn't really old and the Rivals thing may give him some good will from fans.
>>153751481Yeah, it's incredibly annoying. I get them because I want to read them but why should I pay $55 for Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut when I can pay $40 for, say, the Deadman Finest with more material? I want to read both but one is obviously a better value and likely will have a better print run and won't be OOP too long when it does go out.
>>153747404Marvel Massacre
>>153748159He was fired.>Marvel wasn’t the only company displeased with Liefeld. The Image fraternity had fractured the previous year, after Todd McFarlane had vocalized his disapproval of Lee and Liefeld’s return to Marvel. (Even Frank Miller, who’d practically been Image’s patron saint, said he “felt like I’d made a fool of myself by standing up for those guys.”) Then, amid allegations that Liefeld was poaching talent from his partners’ studios and not paying employees, the other six cofounders told Liefeld over a conference call that he was going to be ousted from the company. McFarlane’s thick Canadian accent droned over the speakerphone. “Uh, in case we’re doing something illegal here, you know, then we’ll come back and do it again, but uh, we don’t like you no more, and we’re kicking you out of the company, and do I hear anybody disagree with me? And if I don’t, then let me take a formal vote. . . . Okay, bye, is that it? Anybody else got anything to say? Nope? Okay, good-bye.” The line went dead. Liefeld was out.
>>153752714NOT ENOUGH
>>153746846They acquired Marvel in 2009. The diversity wave was throughout the 2010s. As soon as Feige had full influence of the MCU post Endgame we began seeing these characters pushed in the films. Some characters slightly predate this period but their big pushes were during this period, some were made at the start of it, some were made during it.
>>153752652It doesn't help that some of their mapping isn't exactly terrific. 40-50 dollars is already asking a lot for the Crossing but it doesn't even contain the whole story so you have to pick up an equally terrible Iron Man book.
>>153752526>The problem is that Busiek is 65He's also been suffering from mercury poisoning for decades now.
>>153753160How did that happen?
>>153753160Shit really? Sucks.
>>153746885>He's just a big boy who likes cool stuffand also hates deadlines. nothing would ever get done.
>>153753160the fuck? Why must all good people suffer the worst afflictions?
>>153753264They did Peter David dirty.
>>153737303>Brad has definitely been a big asset in getting Marvel TV back in line after those disastrous early Disney+ showsIs this a joke?Are you serious?Why are you blatantly lying?No one has rescued the disastrous Marvel Studios Disney+ tv shows.
>>153753277Peter David was a fucking racist to Romani fuck him
>>153753203Too much tuna?
regardless of whether you enjoyed Hix-Men, thought it was a success or not, etc, this has always been an odd angle for him to stick to. Again, it's really because of shelving Major X, and he's said he found it too talky, which fair, but this plagarism thing, and claiming that's what did it in, has always been pretty forced from him.
>>153753508He must have been eating a lot of Tuna then
>>153749762No Marvel book back then was selling that high on just "the old people audience" you absolute retard. Just accept you were wrong like a man instead of doubling down on your headcanon.
>>153750017>Anyone who gets that mad about the Quesada era always seems to hold the Busiek/Perez run on Avengers to a super high regardNot a huge fan of either desu
>>153753689What was Major X?
>>153753792Boba Fett for the DP/Cable set
>>153750059>Morrison Xmen most of the problems is cyclops and wolverine>and Beast and Jean and Xavier, etcEven beyond how he handled the characters, that run wrecked mutants as a concept and how they fit into the wider Marvel Universe, and did so in a way virtually every run since doubled down on. It's the point where the X-Men othered themselves and stopped seeing themselves as human.
>>153753851Well I hope you're enjoying the exciting back-to-basics status quo we've got going on now, true believer!
>>153753485Oh no gyppos, anyway
>>153753868>back-to-basics status quo>it's actually more like going back to the Benis 2010sWhy are you lying on the internet?At this point there's probably nothing that can fix X-Men except cancelling it and rebooting after 100 years have past so everyone who wants it to be like this is long dead.
>>153753203Bad fillings apparently.
>>153753485Did you curse him, anon?>>153753260Still an improvement!>>153752925>Some characters slightly predate this period but their big pushes were during this periodThere was a year back then with an aggressive push at once. They waited a couple years for the second round.
>>153753851Why didnt they just put morrison on Dr Strange and let him rewrite marvels retarded magic universe?Xmen are too mainstream and grounded for him to fully exploit his unique writing skill set.
>>153754789I mean I guess the idea would be he'd do for the X-men what he did for Doom Patrol
>>153754789>letting a chaos magician write white magic
>>153753868Why do you hate a bunch of old comics that you've clearly never read?
>>153755066They should've specified for him to do what he did for JLA instead.
>>153755066No, the idea was basically Quesada thinking "Morrison doing JLA made it DC's best-selling title, let's see if can make X-Men big"Similarly he looked at how The Authorty was getting popular under Millar and wanted him on Ultimate X-Men
>>153754789Because they wanted the same sales bump he gave JLA for X-Men.
>>153747899Shooter canceled my favorite comic, the New Defenders with Beast, Angel, Iceman, Gargoyle, Moondragon, Valkyrie and Andromeda, just so they could repackage the Original X-Men into yet another spinoff.Such bullshit!And I miss Candy Southern and Beast’s dog Sassafras.
>>153755134Once the initial sales spike was over, this was the era when X-Men, Uncanny X-Men and Wolverine finally stopped being the top selling book in the industry after most of the previous 10 years on top, and 20 years for UXM. And the sales spike looked a lot better than it really was due to the previous 4 months' issues being under-ordered by retailers who expected them to be interim filler.The size of the fanbase meant the decline took years and years, but this was the beginning of longtime readers checking out, and what newcomers they were getting were only showing up for one writer and the one title that writer was working on.
>>153754717What I mean is, some characters like Hawkeye (Kate Bishop) predate this time (created in 2005). (People also forget about her rape backstory.) But I think she was really heavily pushed later in the 2010s (Matt Fraction series in 2012). For me the timeline is something like:>Marvel Entertainment make Iron Man in 2008 and it is a success.>Disney buy Marvel in 2009.>Discussion around casting.>Some want a James Bond style recasting.>Others don't want this.>RDJ's Iron Man is popular.>Iron Man 2 comes out in 2010.>Still debating the recasting situation but because of people like RDJ they are leaning against it, still course correct in some recasting decisions.>Marvel had created the Creative Committee in 2008 for creators to provide notes for the movie universe.>Bendis was on this committee.>Whilst Sony owned the film rights to Spider-Man, I still believe that Bendis saw which way the wind was blowing on adaptations via his position on the Creative Committee in his creation of Miles in 2011, part of the forerunner to this period. (Bendis also stole Guardian of the Galaxy movie ideas for his comics run and got kicked off the committee). >Avengers in 2012 is massive and the film universe films established with these actors.>The replacement heroes and more diversity becomes engrained in the comics, the few characters that predated this are kind of part of feeling that coming wave. >Previous 2000s stuff like Kate Bishop and Young Avengers was pushed again for a round two (her 2012 series, their 2014 series).>Then some of the big diversity push characters, America Chavez (2011) or Ms Marvel (2013). >Ms Marvel had a very big committee type creation, she had one of the biggest media pushes for any modern Marvel character, the sales incentives in the book market were insane and it created a very large volume 1 trade paper back sales figure but huge drop off.(1/2)
>>153755534>Then the replacements happened all at once seemingly, Jane Foster Thor (2014), Sam Wilson Captain America (2014), Amadeus Cho Hulk (2015) all seemed to happen in quick succession.>Culminating in the Secret Empire Hydra Cap (2017), the comic shop owners shouting at Marvel representatives at a convention about how diversity was tanking sales, David Gabriel admitted this was an issue then backtracking his comments.>Feige and Ike Perlmutter used to have debates over the MCU.>Ike felt strike while the iron was hot, shit things out, he didn't care about recasts (he said all black people look the same when War Machine was recast) and also said girls don't buy action figures in terms of having female led films.>Feige believed in build up and franchise power but also diversity. Feige more began leaning against recast towards better treating the actors, not having huge contracts etc (which happened post Endgame).>Marvel Television, the Netflix show shit, mostly happened because of Ike's influence.>But Feige won out overall and his influence and corporate vision was massive.>Feige got Captain Marvel released, he complained about her comics costume, the Russos didn't know how to use her but her film was a massive success because it was between Avnegers films.>Post Endgame basically every diverse project suddenly appeared, more female led films, more of these modern characters in shows or being introduced.>Characters like Ms Marvel are introduced and pushed everywhere.>One of her credited creators is a producer called Sana Amanat, also behind a bunch of the issues with the current crop of Marvel Disney+ shows (she claims she always wanted Daredevil Born Again to be Netflix-esque, but this is a lie as she pushed for something different initially. Producer and corporate led diversity politics is really behind a bunch of the 2010s push, in part because of politics, in part because of recasting issues and debates.(2/2)
>>153755534>>153755550>2011 is the initial, some people see where things are going, testing the waters.>2013-5 is the, fuck you we're doing this wave, take your medicine plebs.>2017 is, oh shit apathy caught up with us.Remember that Tom Brevoort talked about anger selling in the 2000s period. This worked in the 2000s, post 90s crash, people shit on Bendis constantly but bought his books because they were different. Events shit on characters but people bought them. But 2017 was when the apathy and the repetition of this strategy failed because it had been combined with too many changes along culture war lines. A ridiculous corporate strategy. Even Disney had to comment on the Secret Empire situation at the time but they should have course corrected then.Do I think this current delayed reaction and course correction matters? No. Because they should have done something in 2017 when sales were tanking, shop owners were complaining and even Disney saw Secret Empire fallout. But nah, whilst David Gabriel was mentioning the diversity not selling issues, the EiC was talking up at how great diversity was somewhere else. And David Gabriel instantly backtracked. 2017 was when they could have fixed things.
>>153755705>Remember that Tom Brevoort talked about anger selling in the 2000s period.That swine had been working to that playbook back in the 90s too, he's always been that guy.
>>153755778I think this strategy has been used by many, in comics and elsewhere, since it boils down to the attitude of no publicity is bad publicity or attention for the sake of it. Cheap gimmicks.Sure Tom has played from that book a lot, but I think the 2000s Marvel events, Bendis books, big swings and character assasinations are synonymous with this strategy. And he used that periods successes as his justification for it, which led to a double down approach. When the successes began drying up, then the complaining about fan attitudes became more of an issue for them. But then, occasionally the gimmick works again and they act like it means they won.
>>153755778I don't know if it was Brevoort's idea or not, but the first time I became aware of him playing that way was the third year of his first Avengers run (2000) when the very popular 1998-9 lineup was suddenly undone, Cap and Thor both quit, Triathlon was forced onto the team and the narrator more or less outright says that this is the first Avengers lineup change issue where everyone is miserable about the new lineup.Obviously the intention was to have Cap and Thor back soon (though whatever their plans originally were probably got cut short and they retooled the format in 2001) but it seemed like they wanted fans to be angry and buy the book for that reason, and that feels very Brevoort.
>>153755912There's more concrete facts I think I saw posted where the Wonder Man, Viz, ans Wanda shit was all his doing too during that run. You'd think an Avengers fag lime him would actually like the team and characters that everybody likes but no he's just some contrarian autist like Byrne that thinks some weird whogivesashit version is better. I don't even know what he likes, except his own farts that is.
>>153755912Even before that, the love triangle in the first year played out in a way that was deliberately intended to make readers angry, became the status quo for most of the run, and he boasted about this in a later book summarizing the issues with added behind the scenes info. Carol's big comeback after years in limbo immediately leading into an alcoholic doom spiral feels like it's intended to make her fans angry instead of just being standard superhero melodrama, too.It wouldn't be a surprise if some of the Spider-Man books he edited earlier in the 90s also had things in that were intended to make readers angry.
>>153755107Yeah damn dude don’t you just love reading “THE FOCUSED TOTALITY OF MY PSYCHIC POWER” every third panel?
>>153755534>>153755550>>153755705tl;dr who cares autist
>>153755705>people shit on Bendis constantly but bought his books because they were different. Events shit on characters but people bought them.I want a formal apology from those people for what they wrought.
>>153756022>>153756085I guess the Wonder Man stuff was intended to make some readers angry, but it's also in keeping with the fact that the first three years of that Avengers run are heavily occupied with unfinished business from early 1990s comics, which included Wanda and Simon being pushed as possible romantic partners in "Wonder Man" and "West Coast Avengers."As late as 2000 they did a whole story clearing up the mystery of the identity of the "good" Madame Masque character from The Crossing and the Avengers issues immediately following, which may well have been the Avengers comics fewer readers cared about than any comics in the history of the book.The Quesada/Jemas team mostly put an end to that kind of story and today it's the exact opposite, every new run might as well be a reboot.
>>153752926I suspect that's by design. If you want the Crossing or X-Cutioner's Song or any of these other events then you're going to be forced to buy multiple Epics at inflated prices.I hate giant crossovers in general. I'm planning on doing a storytime that will include New Mutants/New X-Men but NXM ends with Messiah Complex and the structure of the story means I'll have to storytime the entire fucking thing even though it's not really relevant to what I'm trying to storytime.>>153755077It wouldn't make sense because chaos magic doesn't exist. :^)
>>153755077Marvel doesnt have white magic. It has random nonsense that never made fucking sense. Thats my point Just give a bag of shrooms a small mountain of coke and tell him no trannies ir queer shit. Everything else is fair game.
>>153756332>no trannies or queer shit>in modern marvel comicsNever gonna happen, anon
>>153755534The issue I have is that a lot of good younger characters from the Quesada era got fucked over in various ways during the Alonso era. Kate was fine in Young Avengers but was annoying in the Fraction series and her "OMG SHE'S THE GREATEST EVER SQUEE!!!" thing is how she's been characterized ever since which has made her an annoying and a drain on every appearance because everyone has to constantly stop and jack her off whenever she shows up.And just being made annoying means she's one of the characters from that era who made it out a-ok. Look at all the characters like the Academy and Initiative kids, most of the Academy Xers, Gravity and the like who just flat out disappeared.
>>153756262It's weird. Those stories would be met with "Ugh why are you spending time fixing that shit when you could be telling your own story?! >:(" like when Spencer's run on ASM happened and fags like Amazing Spider-talk and Godzillamendoza got pressured by Slott/Marvel into defending them while Spencer got demonized. Busiek is out here fixing shit that was pretty maligned but nobody knows about and because it's the 90's, nobody knows all that went down and they cared about coninuity back then.
>>153756262>which included Wanda and Simon being pushed as possible romantic partners in "Wonder Man" and "West Coast Avengers."That wasn't "unfinished business" in either of those books, despite the Wonder Man solo continuing to play with the idea after West Coast Avengers had already put an end to it, both books ended with it not being a thing anymore. By the late 1990s they were deliberately bringing back something they knew readers hated, and by Brevoort's own admission, they were doing it just to make readers angry.Either Brevoort started shipping it for real or just really liked that specific method of making Avengers readers angry, he did it again with Remender's Uncanny Avengers. But he was a hypocrite who'd oppose reuniting couples readers actually wanted to see together because it would just be repeating things that had been done before, but something nobody wanted the first time around, he'd let that be repeated time and time again.>As late as 2000 they did a whole story clearing up the mystery of the identity of the "good" Madame Masque characterWhile you may be right about there being few readers who cared about this, it was still a scummy thing to do. They resolved it in a way that basically mocks anyone who did care, she's just a clone, and now she's dead. If you're going to bring up an old character or storyline from a previous run, you should have the decency to resolve things in a satisfying way that people who spent money on those books and may have enjoyed them will appreciate, not tell them they wasted their time and their money. This is just a different way to make people angry, and they got away with it because of how few people they were targeting.
>>153756432No X-kid who wasn't an original new mutant will ever get love
>>153744364>Liefeld being in charge of MarvelProbably the ONLY thing that could bring me back to Marvel as a reader. Seriously.
>>153756432>"OMG SHE'S THE GREATEST EVER SQUEE!!!"I feel like this is all connected. The cynical reasons behind their push infected their characterisation which in turn turned people off of them. For me a lot of the culture war debates aren't even fully about the issues, a lot of people are simply attuned to a type of attitude and tone they get from some people online that complete turns them off. Like the attitude you described for her character. I can't find it but I remember this page in an America Chavez comic, it was like "What does America Chavez mean to you" tonally done in a style like Mean Girls of people talking to her (there is a scene in that movie). And people like Storm saying, she represents hope blah blah.
>>153756283>I suspect that's by design. If you want the Crossing or X-Cutioner's Song or any of these other events then you're going to be forced to buy multiple Epics at inflated prices.A lot of these Epics work in a way where one title gets the whole crossover, and other titles just get the issues of their own book, but X-Cutioner's Song is collected in full in both the X-Men and X-Force Epics, so if you're collecting both of those books in Epics you'll need to buy X-Cutioner's Song twice over just for the few different extra issues in the X-Men and X-Force versions.
>>153756725>but X-Cutioner's Song is collected in full in both the X-Men and X-Force EpicsThat pissed me off so much.
>>153756577Devoting entire issues or even arcs to "fixing" some previous story is awful. It's not entertaining. And some other jerk down the line can just undo it anyway.
>>153756839It'd be one thing if it was like the old days where you could cram it all into a single issue or annual and be done with it but it takes a story 3 issues to set up a premise these days.
>>153756577>Busiek is out here fixing shitWhat the hell was "broken" by a new mystery version of Madame Masque existing years after the first one had been killed? Bringing characters out of limbo just to kill them or negate their very existence by making them a clone or an alien shapechanger because "reeeee 90s" and resolving mysteries from previous runs with "it doesn't matter, lol who cares?" isn't fixing anything. Literally ignoring those characters and storylines is preferable to bringing it all back up again just to take a dump on it isn't entertaining, it's not a satisfying 'resolution', and it's not fixing anything.Spencer didn't fix any of the real heinous problems with Spider-Man either, and his "fixes" for Kraven and Harry being alive were neither good stories nor good fixes, the last minute swerve at the end of the Kindred saga even more so.
>>153756998Gwensterio is pretty fucking funny
>>153746382Scare off the Milesfags and get it over with, Yidsney.
>>153749528>Antagonizing fans? Character replacements nobody liked and they doubled down? Edgyfication? All in his shift. Marvel wouldn't be anywhere near as deep in a hole, even now, if it weren't for his retardation.I just wanted to jump in here and say 100% this. For me, Marvel 100% ends with that Hickman Secret Wars from 2015ish. As a supporter at the time, I just didn't appreciate the constant antagonism and grandstanding bullshit. I felt appalled that management allowed their "talent" to act so hatefully in public. I remembered every single comic shop owner I'd ever befriended over the decades and prayed they would be okay. Ever since comics left the grocery store spinner racks, it had been a constant question of "how do we get more kids into buying comics?" Readership had its ebbs and flows but NEW blood was dwindling year over year. Clearly, adult speculators weren't enough to sustain the hobby.And to know that comics were rapidly losing out to cheaper and easier to obtain entertainment, and to see the horrible attitudes from the industry "professionals" chastizing and chasing away readers, actively saying crap like "if you don't like MY politics don't buy MY book" (newsflash, you're only the recent steward and that's not your property). These people talked out one side of their mouth about "inclusiveness" and then actively worked to exclude SO many, and worst of all they did it all on the backs of the giants that created and fostered this industry.Horrible, horrible people. Ruined it for everyone else ON PURPOSE. And management ALLOWED this to continue on for years. Fuck them all.
>>153757075You do realize that you retards are going to meme the actual Mysterio into getting turned into a gay with this buffoonery, don't you?
>>153757167Take a joke
>>153748057>Name one story that is lauded just because someone died. One example of someone saying "this story was great because this character died"Holy Fucking CASUAL, son!You NEED to read this one. And then you need to spend some time outdoors and reflect on why you're so stupid.
>>153746382>Welcome to the new world order anon.Hollywood or Wolfpac?
>>153756688Is this the pic you're thinking of? Complete with the writer's cameo bottom left.
>>153756332>>153756400>no trannies or queer shit>in any Morrison comics, everFixed.
>>153757184I've seen this happen too many times with things that started as jokes, anon. Stop before it's too late. Please.
>>153757167Well...he was played by a gay cowboy...
>>153756998>new mystery Masque years after first one is killedPerhaps it is not well executed. Memory is foggy. But the fact you're having the characters wonder about previous events and make efforts to understand and have agency is what I call "fixing" because that helps to deepen immersion. The tactic you want is Marvel's current MO except they choose the wrong shit to ignore and the wrong shit to focus on.Perhaps some fixes are retarded. But by god, it at least shows someone is trying. The moment when a writer is able to ignore shit is when they perhaps create something that is taken the wrong way by the audience and they ignore that idea. Or sometimes when they have to handwave something so retarded that it trying to lend credence to such an idea is a fool's errand. And that is subjective to everyone and is best left to emergencies like Avengers 200...which for some reason Claremont decided to focus on because...he wanted to look hip, I dunno.>Spencer didn't fixHunted might have been bad but the end result is ok since the clone taking the place means new writers can start ignoring the shit with KLH carrying that baggage and it still somewhat means that story mattered. I think future writers should have differentiated this new Kraven with the old. But nope Wells and Lowe gave us slop.Harry is a mess because of Lowe and Marvel meddling. Slott told us so himself, the retarded faggot. So yeah, I'm gonna assume that was Pre-OMD Harry's soul trying to undo OMD and redpill Peter on one of Marvel's greatest sins (except you know all those times they exploited artists and writers).
>>153756625Jubilee makes out okay, probably from having been in the 90s cartoon, but the rest of her Generation X teammates have had it ROUGH.
>>153748057Are you for real?
>>153757324Ah, Paige. You deserved so much better than being Angel and Toad's cum dump.
>>153757308Does marvel even have editors or people who listen to the fans to understand how they feel about certain directions of stories? Or just adults running things there?
>>153757247Anon I'm in the same boat as you but I fear this is a 80's bully homophobia Oedipus moment where you keep telling people to stop making gay jokes and then you end up gay yourself because you focus too much on saying you are straight. So saying Mysterio is straight and cool (he is) all the time might end up backfiring too. I know sounds like Jewish trickery/reverse psychology but the preferred method to me is just posting cool Mysterio stuff.
>>153757351Anyone else remember Mondo?The son of Krakoa? How?Krakoa is a fucking island. What woman could take a mountain of dick?A peninsula of cock?A chode of hill?
>>153757308>I think future writers should have differentiated this new Kraven with the old.That would have defeated the entire point of making him a clone. They already had multiple Kraven replacements before they brought him back to life, but upper management really want Sergei.
>>153757388Editors like Lowe are there just to be advertisers and say that they read letters and say that they talk to the creatives when they probably are there just to make sure typos and color mistakes don't happen (they still do under Lowe), no jewish slander happens (it still happened kek), and that what people are turning in is what they say are turning in so they follow whatever event is happening so if Drac is back then your book needs vampires or whatever surface level shit there is. My bet is Lowe does write those blurbs but he writes them in like a half hour and then spends the rest of the week doing nothing.
>>153757457An Archipelago of ass
>>153748019>I'll backpedal, that's a good trick!
>>153757308>Perhaps some fixes are retarded. But by god, it at least shows someone is trying.The point is that whether it was Busiek or Brevoort, someone there just really hated early to mid 90s Avengers books and was killing off everyone they could from that era, or outright destroying characters on a conceptual level by making them actually clones or aliens. This isn't fixing anything, it's just motivated by spite to destroy things they could have easily ignored if they hated them so much. None of it was necessary. The only things that needed "fixing" were restoring Iron Man and Wasp to normal, both of which had already been done by Heroes Reborn.It speaks more about the mentality of the fandom that they considered destroying characters they didn't like to be "fixing things".>Hunted might have been bad but the end result is ok since the clone taking the place means new writers can start ignoring the shit with KLH carrying that baggage and it still somewhat means that story mattered.It's the worst of both worlds, it's not the Kraven that was actually in any of those old stories and has that history with anybody, but he looks identical and most writers are just pretending he's the same guy. And the real Kraven still got resurrected, was back for a decade, and his final death is in a bad story nobody cares about.
>>153757484I know. Just have him still look like regular Kraven but have him act differently. How hard is that? The execfags still get their recognizable toy design shoved into the books and the readers get a character that similar yet different Kraven so that continuity matters while being interesting. Kraven had a personality but he's still fucking dead and this one just magically is now as competent and identical to the OG now? Lame. And with everything else that has been bastardized with Spider-Man, why not a Kraven that is initially identical in character to thr OG except not depressed? Now he has a new way of getting a character arc that is different. So it is inevitable that he would change so I think it justifies this direction. But whatever I'm just trying to think on how to continue it.
>>153756577Sometimes the fix is worse than what was broken. Take poor Harry Osborn for example
>>153757167I understand your worry, but for someone like Mysterio it's easily walked back by clarifying he goes full method actor but has no sense of truth beyond the role.
>>153757599>Destroying charactersYes but I just said why wouldn't Tony or whoever go and investigate what the hell was up with this duplicate Masque? You can't simply leave it alone. Set-up and payoff. Sure they could have said she like left a note and is gone in vacation or like will be back but not right now. I dunno. This will be us going in circles as an argument. Whatever. >worst of both worldsNigga I literally said since then with Lowe and Wells, it has been slop so now you're agreeing with me but still acting like I'm a retard.
>>153757694Ah yes, a 4chan thread is never complete without faggots who don't read the thread and repeat the same point to drown out the response to that point that was posted a while ago.
>>153757615If he acts differently he's not Sergei anymore and they're just going to force another writer to kill off the clone and bring back the real one again.
>>153757457I though Mondo was more like a plant construct created by Black Tom when he was in full Ent mode.
>>153757728Harry is objectively worse off now than he was when BND brought him back. Spencer didn't fix anything, the old story is just as if not worse off than before, and Spider-Man has been robbed of yet another supporting cast member. You can deflect onto editorial all you want, and yes they very clearly did ruin his original plan. This does not make his pivot any better or even remote defendable. He could have just not done anything with Harry
>>153757741Yes but what if a writer actually makes this one a good character, becomes popular and now writers want to write this one now? Hmm...quite a creative concept....maybe...creatives need to....create shit......
>>153755534>Young Avengers was pushed again for a round twoThat was because the characters got a good reception in their first volume but Heinberg real job got in the way. And yet Marvel still tried to keep pushing them with the one shots of the individual members (the one with the story of Kate being raped) and the tie-ins with the Runaways in both Civil War and Secret Invasion. Millar even added Patrior to the main story of CW. Then time passed and since Heinberg wasn't part of the main writers group the chance of him told the return of Scarlet Witch return was taken away from him and the final volume of YA was delayed and delayed (that is a reason why Cheung was drawing Iron Man and Captain America with outdated outfits in Children's Crusade).
>>153757703>You can't simply leave it alone. Set-up and payoff.You can at least leave it alone until someone has a better payoff than "she was just a clone and now she's dead". If you're going to bring a character out of limbo to payoff on unanswered questions about them, have a payoff that anyone who actually liked the character might enjoy, not one that they'll hate.And yes, you can have Tony and the Avengers just forget to follow up on something from years ago because they're too busy until someone actually wants to do a worthwhile follow-up, instead of just treating it like a dangling plot thread that needs to be crossed off a list and it doesn't matter how you do it so long as it's done.IIRC that Masque's previous appearance set up that the android who kidnapped her was a creation of Machinesmith, and the payoff didn't even pay off on that.>but still acting like I'm a retard.I've been doing that to Spencer apologists since his Captain America run, he doesn't get an "everything bad or incoherent is all editorial's fault" free pass.
>>153757839No. Hes the son of krakoa. He betrayed genx because of...reasons..
>>153748057You've been here for what, 2 summers
>>153757860>robbedHarry shouldn't have to endure modern Spider-Man status quo. And the writers aren't good enough to write him. I think Spencer's work has created enough doubt on the world and Mephisto that it leaves up room for someone to show all the schizo nonsense of the finale is due to Mephisto's illusion breaking down. It makes the pivot and the people to blame for it the ones who are not defendable. They meddled, end of story. Thus they get 100 percent of the blame. They didn't do their jobs in time to stop him. They are faggots and you are a bootlicker. He could have just laid down in the street and get curbstomped by Mephisto or he could rise up and actually try. Unlike you.
>>153757886What writers want doesn't matter. No writer wanted to diminish Kraven's Last Hunt. When Kelly was asked about where the idea came from, he was deliberately cagey about it.
>>153757961Nigga I fucking told you that Slott confirmed they meddled and he has said explicitly that they meddled with the ending. Thus, it can be assumed they are why it is shit. Don't fucking bait me with shit this weak. I'm not talking about Cap.
>>153753260Right, that's why Marvel fired Dan Slott decades ago
>>153757886Why not just give kraven an illegitimate bastard who follows in his foot steps. Lots more pathos and potential to either go full kraven or something different depending on the writers mood. You make the character easy to mold by other writers but a core that everyone agrees on that cant be changed oermanently without agreement from multiple people. Rargh you killed kraven! I SERGEI THE SECOND WILL DEFEAT YOU!!
>>153744887>shambolicWhy do britcunts think this word isn't fucking cringe like "snogged," "mogging," and "Robbie Williams"
>>153758019>what writers want doesn't matterOk I'll phrase it this way, readers and merchandisers would want more of this Kraven then because now they feel more secure in that this character has substance and consumer attachment to it then.>KellyWhat?
>>153745790>damn dildo and his shitty ww clark fanficIt's embarrassing to admit but there were shit-tons of retarded fans who thought they belonged together merely because they were mighty
>>153757970Mondo was weird. He was in all the promo material and they were setting him up being he ended up being a fake almost immediately.
>>153748544This right fucking here
>>153736619>he rot at Marvel comes from the top down and I suspect guys like him and Buckley were the ones responsible for things like the 10 issues or less bullshit. Twe certain of that? because this guy was around for 100 issue ongoings too, and survived the perlmuttening of marvelalso who was gabriel
>>153737239>Liefeld's analysis of Marvel's problems starting at the corporate level from guys who have been there forever and aren't particularly great is on point.Liefeld is the createst weird unc comics have right but now that level of company acumen is a bit more than I expect of him
>>153758066>Nigga I fucking told you that Slott confirmed they meddled and he has said explicitly that they meddled with the ending. Thus, it can be assumed they are why it is shit.Considering it was the Kraven story we were talking about here, not the final arc, for Spencer to get a free pass on that one you'd have to be claiming editorial were meddling with the entire run.
>>153758138>Ok I'll phrase it this way, readers and merchandisers would want more of this Kraven then because now they feel more secure in that this character has substance and consumer attachment to it then.This is far too optimistic. The most likely outcome would be that no one would care that much and upper management would flip out about it immediately and have the old one brought back pronto.>What?Joe Kelly was the guy assigned to write Grim Hunt.
>>153757137>Ever since comics left the grocery store spinner racksYou mean since the late 1970's? Almost half a century ago? Because since then the direct market has been comicbook's main channel for sales.
>>153756022Brevoort has shown repeatedly that despite working in comics for a long time he doesn't actually understand them or the fans.
>>153757599Most of the 90s stuff in that Avengers run isn’t really shitting on the early 90s stories, if anything they assume an amount of interest in Alkhema or the Bloodwraith that seems surprising today. It was the tail end of the era when every run was expected to be a continuation of the previous run, and so what should have been a new-reader-friendly book like Ostrander’s “Heroes for Hire” is drenched in older continuity.(The one thing that qualifies to me as shitting on the earlier run is Avengers Forever dismissing “The Crossing” as entirely fake with all the villains just Immortus and his crew play-acting. Even if almost nobody liked that story — probably including Bob Harras since he allowed this — it’s not playing fair to say that the story essentially didn’t happen at all.)
>>153758299Newsstand sales were diminishing over time, but hundreds of thousands of issues weren't being sold in comic shops, they weren't that popular. You can see how well the direct market sales alone truly were when they stopped newsstand distribution altogether.
>>153758173Well, Lois Lane hasnt been a likeabke character in ever and WW being a lampshaded dyke they keep hooking up with batman isnt working.Plus the women and....people..who like ww want to know shes getting cracked good and proper by the alpha male hero. Its about status as well as sexual compatibility. Really only old heads who like the status quo were against it.
>>153757324Jubilee after Gen X got almost raped, crucified, did nothing, depowered, saddled with a kid none of the writers liked, repowered, did nothing and is currently acting as wallpaper in Simone's UXM.
>>153758299>You mean since the late 1970's?mid 80s, stupid. Where the fuck do you get late 70's? You clearly weren't there. I bought the Dune adaptation of the grocery store rack and my entire run of GI Joe (I stopped buying it in the low 100's) You DID know GI Joe comic books were advertised on tv, right?
>>153758394Gen X as a comic was cursed from almost the start. They were FOUR issues in before AoA hit and side swiped everything. It got some decent momentum afterwards, especially with all the Emplate stuff, but It really feels like they just kind of forgot what they wanted to do with the book and it didn't help that they basically had to sit out Onslaught and then there was zero tolerance and M was like three people.
>>153758388Superman's Girl Friend Lois Lane was one of DC's top selling books in the 50s and 60s, people loved her.
>>153737110>>153737156legit can't tell what did buckley actually do and why he remained so obscure for so long
>>153748696>Fans of the original X-Men were eating good with thatA handful of whiners in their late 30s/early 40s who didn't count for shit
>>153757137>Ever since comics left the grocery store spinner racksThe original distribution system ended because some unsold books were being resold and the profits kept by the retailers. The old model of distribution was fucking terrible in terms of getting books because comics have a low profit margin and often local distributors would be more random and less precise in allocation. The first Direct Market basically fixed all these problems until it was accused of being a monopoly and broken up. But the Direct Market and comic book shop model essentially help save the industry then. Then it built up over time and eventually it was on its ass again. Of course the modern world should have reassessed this model, but post 90s crash comics were on their ass and Diamond was the only distributor left in town, until COVID and the splitting of distribution again.>it had been a constant question of "how do we get more kids into buying comics?" As per usual the issue isn't the lack of spinner racks. The issue is that comics are a bad entertainment prospect. Too expensive, poor quality product as compared to literally anything else. Video games offer more. I sincerly believe that even if the quality was vastly improved and the price went down you wouldn't get people back to comics because of the simple cultural baggage of comics that manga and other things don't have. That and the fact other things are more accessible, engaging or have better pipelines.Hey, maybe I am pessimistic, but I have seen anthology comics over the years (and anons keep saying we need those). In my country you get some comics at the supermarket as well. But they simply don't sell. But people think it is as easy as "put them in the supermarket and do anthologies". This analysis is simply tired.
>>153758511See >>153747985Those weren't hundreds of thousands of older readers. Big Jim said most of Marvel's readers were high schoolers and college aged.
>>153748363>I wasn't old enough to be reading comicsYou're the asshole who doesn't get why Beach Boys Pet Sounds changed everything starting with the Beatles
>>153758488>lovedPast tense
>>153758299>the direct market has been comicbook's main channel for sales.Yes, and what the FUCK does that have to do with what I fucking said, you neckbeard retard? If you weren't such a fart huffing autistic spaz, you'd fucking grasp that since the transition from newstand TO direct market, the amount of NEW CHILDREN getting into comics kept diminishing more and more. How is that so mother fucking hard for your goddamn stupid ass to fucking grasp? Why the FUCK do you have to respond to me with your fucking stupidity and lack of understanding? I rarely saw anyone younger than myself at comic shops and comic conventions, and every shop owner I met over the fucking years AS I FUCKING SAID complained about the lack of fresh blood becoming NEW COLLECTORS. You stupid fucking asshole. Learn how to fucking READ.
>>153758375>but hundreds of thousands of issues weren't being sold in comic shopsMarvel's first "test the waters" Direct Market exclusive books was Dazzler #1 (1981) which sold 420,000 copies.https://jimshooter.com/2011/07/debut-of-dazzler.html/>P.S. Later, noting the strengthening of the still-fledgling Direct Market, I proposed to Galton that we publish a Direct Market exclusive issue. Around that time X-Men and other top performers were selling around 30,000 copies in the Direct Market, in addition to their newsstand sales.>The Sales Department resisted, fearing angering the I.D. Wholesalers (the newsstand distributors). The compromise was that we would use a lesser known character, rather than a top seller, which the newsstand people might pay more attention to, and might be upset by.>I picked Dazzler. I figured that would provide a good test.>Dazzler #1 was the first all-Direct comic book (at least from a major publisher). It sold 428,000 copies.
>>153758352>Most of the 90s stuff in that Avengers run isn’t really shitting on the early 90s storiesI think that Masque resolution really counts. And the nation which gets destroyed in the Ultron storyline just happens to be the one from Force Works, a book that both Brevoort and Busiek appeared to really dislike?>it’s not playing fair to say that the story essentially didn’t happen at all.Peter David was allowed to do a similar thing with the Bruce Jones Hulk run, dismissing it all as a dream or something. Even if those stories were unpopular with a lot of readers, those are a substantial amount of comics that people would have spent money on, and there'd be some people who did enjoy them. Dismissing them entirely like that is just a totally indefensible dick move.And whether it's Masque being a clone, or some of the Crossing OCs being dismissed as Immortus' Space Phantoms' they're negating characters created by a previous creative team, worse than just killing a character, they're ensuring that character is gone forever because they weren't even real, denying their creators even the smallest opportunity of them ever making it into adaptations, getting toys and merch, etc. It's an absolute dick move far worse than just killing them. And all this after the two biggest problems with that era had already been fixed anyway.I imagine if Busiek had actually been motivated to give The Crossing a satisfying payoff he might have come up with something better than Ewing and Slott did with it's spiritual sequel Empyre.
>>153758388>Well, Lois Lane hasnt been a likeabke character in everChuck Austen is that you?
>>153758549WHAT IS YOUR GODDAMN FUCKING POINT YOU AUTISTIC PIECE OF SHIT???I fucking KNOW WHY comics left grocery stores. Why the fuck do you feel the need to think its up to you to lecture me about it? It's not a matter of WHY, it's the fucking END RESULT that ultimately led to where we are. Comics have been an adult readers game for years now, you stupid fucking fuckhead. Shut the fuck up.God DAMN you're fucking AUTISTIC.
>>153758683WHAT IS YOUR GODDAMN POINT YOU STUPID FUCKING AUTISTIC RETARD!!!!!!JUST BECAUSE MARVEL TESTED OUT THE DIRECT MARKET WITH DAZZLER DOESN'T MEAN COMICS ENDED AT THE GROCERY STORE THAT VERY FUCKING MONTH!!!!YOU'RE TRYING TO THROW OUT DATA THAT'S LITERALLY IRRELEVANT TO THE FUCKING POINT!!!!!FUCKING SHUT THE FUCK UP! HOLY FUCKING SHIT! YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY AND SHITTING UP THE THREAD WITH YOUR STUPIDITY!!!!!!!
>>153758325>Brevoort has shown repeatedly that despite working in comics for a long time he doesn't actually understand them or the fans.I will now remind you how after being Avengers editor since 1997, Brevoort in 2004 didn't think Avengers readers would care about what Disassembled did to Wanda.And when Remender's Uncanny Avengers had an issue where Rogue and Wanda were both killed, Brevoort was confused by why readers were losing their minds, and why they didn't seem to care so much about Wonder Man dying in the same issue. The man has a complete lack of understanding of the readers.
>>153758549Speaking of covid. The fuck hapoened?They had a littetal captive audience and could have had thick marvel magazines for kids/familes ready to deliver to oarents worried their kids wouldnt read anything.They had marvel adventures just sittimg there.
>>153758782Fucking hell you're sensitive. If anything you're an autistic fuck because you read things so singularly. I was not lecturing you. I was expanding on some points, not directly accusing you of anything. Geez take a fucking break. Sometimes people expand on something in a conversation, it doesn't mean they're talking down to you.>END RESULTContext matters and is important to talk about to how we got to that position. Everything I said is about the end result too. You'd have realised that if you weren't so mad. I mean this sincerly: calm the fuck down.
>>153758448>Where the fuck do you get late 70's?From Jim Shooter push for the direct market and the boom of comicbook stores in the 70's?
>>153758584Dark Knight and Watchmen, those were Pet Sounds-quality books. Crisis was junk, worse than Wolfman and Perez's own earlier Titans work. Wolfman's Vigilante was also better. Not too much earlier you also had Moore's Swamp Thing, Levitz's Legion, Fleisher's Jonah Hex, Bates's Trial of Barry Allen, Barr's Camelot 3000. Quite a number of better books that hardly anyone was buying.
>>153758867FUCKING SHUT THE FUCK UUUUPPPPP. YOU'RE SO STUPID IT HURTS>>153758875>From Jim Shooter push for the direct market and the boom of comicbook stores in the 70's?SEE WHAT I MEAN???? YOU CAN'T EVEN GRASP THAT THE TWO COINCIDED AT THE SAME TIME FOR FUCKING YEARS!!!!!! IT WASN'T A PASSING OF A BATON WHERE ONE STARTED AND THE OTHER ENDED THE SAME GODDAMN MONTH!!!!! YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT TRYING TO ACT LIKE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING. YOU KNOW NOTHING AND YOU'RE SHITTING UP A GOOD THREAD WITH YOU ABSOLUTE FAGGOTRY! FUCKING KYS!you clearly weren't there, you're clearly an absolute neckbeard moron, and you can't even fucking grasp that comics were in grocery stores for YEARS after the direct market started. And you UTTERLY MISS THE FUCKING POINT that kids don't drive themselves to comic fucking stores but the smallest child gets dragged to the grocery fucking store!just SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW A FUCKING THING!
>>153737239so we are becoming a full on IP farm?oh well
>>153758844>>153758782>>153758667>>153758975What a fucking meltdown. You're shitting up the thread with your breakdown, anon. You haven't said anything interesting or to the point.>>153758862>The fuck hapoened?I mean, everyone shit the bed scrambling for distributors. The funny thing is, there was a boost in terms of some collected editions. Dollar amount has gone up but a lot of this is not new readers but collected edition readers and price increases of books. I sincerly believe there is now a collected edition bubble because Marvel shit out so many omnis so thick and fast that people couldn't keep up and people only have a finite amount of space for big books too. Like okay, you want Kirby's FF or Claremont's X-Men in omnibus format to get bang for your buck or something, but producing omnis for brand new shit series? All this other stuff? Just watching channels like Near Mint Condition or seeing Reddit shelfies tells me a bubble is gonna burst on these consumerists soon.
>>153758683You should pay more attention to>Around that time X-Men and other top performers were selling around 30,000 copies in the Direct Market.Their top performers had been selling tens of thousands at comic shops when their total sales were hundreds of thousands. Making a comic exclusive brought in more customers, at least for that #1. #1 orders are a somewhat-blind guess from the retailers. Looking elsewhere, Dazzler sales fell to 187,941 the next year and then 166,657 the next. Pretty good, but still not hundreds of thousands good.
>>153758975>but the smallest child gets dragged to the grocery fucking store!Grandpa, kids don't want to read comics, they want to play video games or sit watching Youtube on an iPad.
>>153753689Oh this is fucking rich
>>153759039>You should pay more attention toHuh? What a strange comment. I did pay attention to it, hence why I posted it. I was just posting some information about early parts of the DM. Dunno what you're trying to imply here.
>>153758667Don't be a sperg.If you think the direct market was a barrier to get new readers you are the biggest idiot on this thread. Because the direct market has existed as the main gate to comics for almost half a century. There was an age when people in Bumfuck, Idaho didn't have comics on the racks of a newstand but they have a LCS.
>>153759094Retailers may have ordered over 400,000 copies but they certainly didn't sell that many to actual customers.
>>153758975>>153758782>WHAT IS YOUR GODDAMN FUCKING POINT YOU AUTISTIC PIECE OF SHIT???>FUCKING SHUT THE FUCK UUUUPPPPP. YOU'RE SO STUPID IT HURTSYou didn't address anything I said, retard. You just had a fucking meltdown.My goddamn point was explaining the context of how we got to where we got and how there is no quick fix or solution in getting kids back into comics which is something you had mentioned. I was explaining the end result.
>>153759133Obviously, no shit sherlock, that is how the DM operated.
>>153756110Wouldn't you know it that's when I dipped
>>153759109That is not true. Most kids got comics from the racks. After they went direct market exclusive in the mid-90s, the mainlines were kept kid friendly for a few more years to keep up appearances, but then they stopped bothering because there were no more kids.
Amazing how much a thread can turn into a dumpster fire when one sperg has a psychotic turn.
>>153757217This was our shining momentA subsequent writer telling us 90% of this book was a hallucination was theirs
>>153759025Distrbutors as in a major conpany who delivers? Cause amazon was right there. Starting a keep your kids busy collection or at keast flosting the idea on social media would have been a good idea. Even brought in those old comic fans who were out of work l, out of school and bored.
>>153746094>another multiverse refugee nonsenseSee >>153738506
>>153756085>her fansGonna stop you there, chum. Carol has never had any fans and the one autistic fag going "CAROL" on here doesn't count.
Comics died as an American past time in the 90s when the industry crashed. Just when new forms of entertainment were becoming more popular too. Everything since then has been constant attempts at doing different gimmicks to try and patch up the problems, getting more and more desperate as they went along. And even having Marvel movies take over the cultural zeitgeist didn't move the needle because the problems are so entrenched that they couldn't or wouldn't do anything. The whole thing has to crash and come down before any change could happen but too many people have the old mindset still. Even if it crashed and burned I see nothing changing. You end up with mixed feelings about it, some of what Rob says is accurate, some is complete bollocks, ultimately we are all just dancing around the fire. But with the MCU on the downturn anyway it feels like there is even less chance of things being fixed. If they couldn't be fixed when the movies were popular, why would they be fixed now.
>>153759109There was no social impetous or pull to comic stores. Nor did they invest in monthly direct mailing. The kids not buying is on them not meeying them half way or protecting the geek kids niche.
>>153758651Your shipping of Superman and Wonder Woman is deadLive with it
>>153758394Not to mention stuck in some kind of resistance during that stupid Initiative era, and later vampirized and devampirized I guess. At least she was cool in the X-23 book.>>153757860>>153757694>Harry is objectively worse off now than he was when BND brought him back.BND Harry was peak, they should have kept him around.>>153755534What I was talking about, though, was in... 2009 maybe? when, more or less at once, we got>Shuri replacing Black Panther>Female Ghost Rider>Lady Bullseye>Lady Sinister>I think Phyla-Vell as Quasar replacement might have been around then>a kree woman replacing Nova for a bit>I think Wolverine In Hell while X-23 took over for a bit might have been then?I probably missed some stuff. Not by coincidence, I think it was jason aaron doing his usual cuck bit with female GR.
>>153759296>Cause amazon was right there.DC went to Penguin because of its book market distribution and prior relationships it had. Amazon is too difficult in how it handles its contracts and whilst it has major broad appeal, they would never go for it. Amazon doesn't like partners, it consumers them.>Starting a keep your kids busy collectionThey started kids collections, like they did those Might Marvel books of old comics specifically designed at getting kids to read them.
>>153759204Since the first half of the 1980's the sales to the direct market were ¾ of their total sales. Only one in four comics were sold in retail. Most kids only had access to comics because they have a LCS near by. And the current rolling head of Marvel is because someone in the chain of screaming is not happy with Marvel being shackled to the direct market for access to their comics.
>>153759405>What I was talking about, though, was in... 2009 maybe? when, more or less at once, we gotI would see them in two main waves. That and the second one mid 2010s.
>>153759332I honestly dont understand why they didnt have mcu friendly collected comic magazines and fortnite/roblox tie ins for new readers and a full reset or at least an ultimate type line that mirrors the mcu feel im dierect markets. It makes no sense. None of the stories that were going on during the height of the MCU popularity was worth salvaging.
>>153759456Instead we got bad attempts at synergy with the MCU. Like Black Nick Fury in 616 or faux Coulson.
