bojack is the progenitor of the therapyspeak epidemic that's in every show now and made it ok for grown adults to act absolutely pathetic and show no restraint enabling manbaby millennials to be even more insufferable and inject it into their writing for their nepotism-funded "mature" cartoon.you don't hate bojack enough
No that's genuinely unironically Adventure Time but this board doesn't want to admit it.
>>153740876Technically speaking, As Told By Ginger started it all.
It's anime and once the people who grew up on 90s anime got old enough to make their own cartoons it started appeared.
>>153740902As Told By Ginger wasn't really influential though, if you want the seeds of it it's probably Hey Arnold. Or shit maybe even Doug.
>>153740854Complain about therapyspeak all you want, but most anons on this board are currently talking about how much they want to rape/be raped by cartoon rats or something. It's going over their heads and is a long way from being the biggest problem
>>153740854Bojack is the most worstest most horriblest most evilest person in the world because he struggled with drug addiction and had several uncomfortable encounters with teenage girls that never went anywhere.
>>153740854Technically Moral Orel was patient zero, and I actually liked that show.
Hey Arnold and King of the Hill started it but Adventure Time, Gravity Falls, SU, Bojack, and post-S3 Regular Show made it popular.
No because Hey Arnold had likeable characters dealing with real problems vs total shitheads trying to be slightly less shitty. Except for Oskar.
>>153740939This, it’s Americanized jrpg friendship speech
>>153740854you seem angry
>>153740854The real problem is that these shows used to launch with 52 episodes, and now indies make one to two per year, and of all the elements they could keep when condensing cartoons they keep the panic attacks
"""Therapyspeak""" is just a smoothbrain buzzword for "dialogue I don't like"
>>153743824I have trouble believing you genuinely believe something this reductive. Just say the term is overused instead of this hyperbolic bullshit.
This song is very good https://youtu.be/96lwAGESRAY?si=zNNfUuZFobxIxmn_
I'm genuinely not sure what "therapy speak" is supposed to be. People talking about their feelings?
Has it just been a long time since I've seen the first few seasons of the show, or did the characters just get more pitiful and the show less funny as time went on?
>>153743997The show was never funny
>>153743997Nah, it got funnier. And the characters more or less stayed the way they are. Or rather, most of them were still struggling with the same issues at the the end of the show that they were at the beginning. Which is realistic, I guess.
>>153740854And why does this really bother you? Do you not like being reminded of your own unresolved issues?
>>153743824This.
NORMAL WORDS BUT HORSE GUY really fucking brain broke people here.
is therapyspeak just when a show tries to portray characters displaying empathy in their conversations instead of screaming at each other and calling everyone retards
are people so disturbed by saying their emotions out loud that we have to make buzzwords about it?
>>153744508>>153744519I have never heard the term but it seems pretty self-explanatory. Is it not when you talk like you would to a therapist, going very deep into your feelings and motivations and inner workings, externalizing them, and getting into the gritty about societal shit and the nature of interpersonal relationships and explicitly stating things like the coping mechanisms you're engaging with and all that stuff, in a way that's way too deep and self-involved and unnatural to how people really talk (or used to anyway)?
>>153744567I sometimes talk about these things, with close friends or family.
>>153744681Same, I assume the issue is doing it in excess. I know people will bitch and moan no matter the amount, I just think a sentiment like >>153743824 is dumb.
My theory on the hate the Bojack Horseman gets is that it's from people who have no idea what irony is. You know, Americans.
>>153740854But TADC is the worst case of that and /co/ keeps praising it up and down.
>>153744567It’s not always bad but you’d think a skilled writer could show a character’s feelings without stopping the scene and having them stare at the camera to announce them. That being said, a lot of people seem to need everything spelled out to them.
>>153743997it started feeling off around season 3 I think. the most rage inducing moments for me were when he's actually doing fine but they get him into an off-screen accident to force the character into a painkiller addiction because otherwise the show would end there, and those fucking journalist characters who fuck him up, legitimately the most annoying characters I've ever seen.I don't want to say that the series was overall more bad than good, but it left me with a sour aftertaste and not the good kind, it's very obvious that at some point they were just pulling shit out of their hat with no clear path for the story
>>153741467>Hey Arnold and King of the HillThe 2 boring life lesson shows that everyone flipped the channel when they came on, yet somehow today have armies of overly defensive fans
>>153744756>/co/ keeps praising it up and down.Which /co/ are you on? The only anons who watch it are doing so because they goon to it. Everyone else hates it.
Why isn't Avatar considered 'therapyspeek'? Does the show have to be contemporary or is it because people believe the characters 'deserve' to feel the way they do due to circumstances?
>>153740966Kek
>>153744935It's because people like Avatar so they don't want to admit it can be associated with anything they perceive as negative even if said thing works in the context of the show itself. People can be really pig-headed and act like an entire concept is inherently bad and tainted even if it can work with the right touch.
When that neanderthal told Jack to jump good I really felt that
>>153744920>Which /co/ are you on?The one that has daily /tadc/ generals
>>153744935Good writing
>>153741042Moral Orel actually went somewhere though. And it was about average people and their issues, not some millionaire soft-cock who couldn’t get his fucking act together after six seasons.
>>153744735I'm made mostly of carbon, actually.
>>153744756>/co/ keeps praising it up and down.Tranny/co/ maybe.
>>153740854WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
>>153744851Yeah, that's the season they decided to start making really weird political statements like "Abortions are such good things that you could show one live on TV and people would just say, 'Wow, that was informative!'" Like watching the actual process of ripping a baby out of the womb wouldn't disgust and disturb anyone with a soul. It's clear they didn't investigate the mechanics of what they were portraying, they just wanted to have an, "Abortion is good" episode.They also had this weird meta-commentary where the writing staff acts like they're doing a public service via a teen girl character who goes "Abortion is scary, but when people joke about it, I feel better about killing my child." Then the next season they had an episode where they say that gun advocates would reverse their advocacy of guns if women started carrying, like that's not exactly what pro-2A people very vocally want women to do.It became clear that the show was just another vehicle for snobbish and midwitted lefties to broadcast their retarded opinions in a format where they couldn't be challenged because they're the only voice in the room.I really used to love the show back when I was like 24 and going through my depressed libertarian phase, but I genuinely can't see myself watching or recommending this shit again.
>>153744935>Why isn't Avatar considered 'therapyspeek'?The word "Honor" doesn't play a central part in a therapist's office.
>>153740854This show is highly satanic because it has homersexuals and lesbialas
>>153745930It's actually highly Satanic because it made an effort to display killing children in the womb for convenience as a good thing to people who had their guard down because they were expecting wacky anthro cartoon, not political messaging.
>>153745987It also dismisses religion out-of-hand as a solution for the MCs' personal issues. Its absence is actually glaring in a show about people desperately looking for ways to help themselves. That absence says, "Religion isn't a solution even worth considering if you're in a spiral." And it's meant to program that thought into the audience when they face personal issues.
>>153745894The show deals a lot with how people are shaped by trauma. The parentification of Sokka and Katara, Toph's guardedness, Zuko's struggle with identity and where he draws worth, etc.
>>153746069That's correct, though.
>>153746591You can deal with those themes without therapizing about them. Avatar does that and does it very well. Therapyspeak doesn't mean, "Accurate portrayal of potential responses to trauma" it's more "Coddling, infantalizing, and excusing character's behavior in the basis of their past trauma until the character addresses it directly.>>153746625Lol, retard.
>>153746625Be honest, how many times today have you been told to go back?
>>153746591Therapyspeek =/= any characterization of improvement or moving on from past hurts.
>>153746763>characterizationThis is the keyword. Therapy speak tells the audience why a character acts the way they do, usually by making the character or another character verbally articulate the underlying causes. Then they verbally articulate the solution.Traditionally, good characterization shows instead of telling. That's why therapy speak is technically weaker from a writing perspective.
>>153744935Because the characters in Avatar actually have a reason to be depressed about something. Bojack doesn't deserve that sympathy but pretends that he does.
>>153740854Dr Katz invented it
>>153746875That's an interesting point. Broadly speaking, therapy exists to help people who are applying inappropriate coping mechanisms to their mundane situations. They don't have much place in telling people living actual lives of danger and suspense that their problems need to be talked about and worked out since whatever coping mechanisms those people are using are likely legitimate responses to active threats and are keeping them alive. It's got me thinking what a "combat therapist" like a forward deployed chaplain's or a party cleric's role might be. Likely just to resolve dangerous behavior that puts the unit at large at risk, right? The battlefield isn't really the place to solve someone's mommy issues.
I feel like /co/ has collectively missed the point that the show is fully aware Bojack is a piece of shit and doesn't deserve forgiveness. They act like it's softballing for him to make him look better when the whole deal is you're supposed to see how fucked up everyone involved is, and the difference between seeking forgiveness and actually changing yourself.Bojack doesn't end the show forgiven, he's lost every single one of the people he gave a fuck about, and he accepts it because he finally learned he can't just force them to take him back because he's acting better. But that's not a reason to stop trying to become a better person.
>>153746955Sometimes all it takes is a bad firefight for someone to crack under pressure. Shellshock/PTSD exists because largely in part of War.
>>153744935In a show like Bojack Zuko would at some point be brow beaten into apologizing to Azula and his father.
>>153747060That's an unsatisfying ending because it's hopeless. The pattern shown is that, not only is there no forgiveness, but efforts to become better will invariably be dashed by a universe that hates you. Christianity has a similar theme that, "Humans do not deserve forgiveness" but it is at least satisfyingly hopeful because there is a universal ontologically good love in the form of God that grants forgiveness and redemption, anyway to those who admit they need it. The pattern we've been shown in Bojack is that even though he's tried to get better, he never truly will and nobody he loves will stick around. You even see that in his final dance with Princess Caroline where he starts getting narcissistically entangled with the idea of getting working again. The underlying behavior he has is still there and Princess Caroline is made uncomfortable by it and has to establish a clear boundary that she will not get involved with working with him again. It is a hopeless story made by hopeless people and it hates the human condition while offering no positive path forward.
>>153746909Dr. Katz didn't invent therapy speak, he was actually just a therapist saying normal words.
>>153747257The best you can do is try to be sorry for what you did, and try to be better. The other party is fully allowed, within reason, to not accept your apology. It sucks, it really fucking sucks, but that's just how life goes. Sometimes a person can only be given so many chances my friends and colleges, until they just can't do it anymore.
>>153740854Did you forget the entire point of the show that BoJack is a POS that hurts everyone around him because he refuses to sort out his own issues?
>>153747277>normal wordsbut a therapist guy
>>153747324Anon this is another "I hate therapy speak" thread. If anything the OP and people who complain about it, seem to just think it's "leftist drivel" or some bs like that, and not think about context or actually sit down and ask what about it really bothers them.
>>153747286>Sometimes a person can only be given so many chances my friends and colleges, until they just can't do it anymore.This is also based on a hopeless worldview. And its justification in-universe is honestly pretty disgusting.Bonack was legitimately doing better and living well, his relationships with those around him becoming more constructive and healthy. Then the universe digs up something from his past and his entire improvement is deleted, he becomes panicky, obsessive, and narcissistically accepts the second interview after being forgiven for letting Sarah Lynn die. You could take this as an affirmation that he was never really better, just acting the part of someone better. Again, hopeless, it says, "You are who you are, and if you suck, you suck. You'll never actually get better, only play the part of being better if your circumstances allow it." Which means people cutting you off and leaving you alone is totally justified. I'm a Christian and I cannot accept this kind of worldview. It's fundamentally anti-human and antichristian. Jesus told us to be relentless in forgiving others, no matter how many times they mess up, because we, ourselves, mess up relentlessly. You can even see this in Bojack as all of the supporting cast are perpetually messing up and hurting people around them, they're only really flanderized into comparatively "good" people in the final season who stop hurting each other, kind of arbitrarily. For my money, the onky person who can reasonably stop giving someone chances is someone who, themselves, has stopped getting chances from others and genuinely goes through life without hurting anyone (not possible). Until then, we have to give the same grace we're given.
>>153747433There are some people who just keep falling off the wagon no matter how well intended they are at keeping on. Some people are just too asshole-ish to really forgive. I can't argue against what you're arguing against, I understand where you're coming from completely. The fact is, not everyone is patient, and sometimes the offense can be too egregious to be forgiven. The best the offender can really do is forgive themselves and move on, fully accepting they can never get that person back no matter how many overtures and improvements they make. again, it really really sucks; but that's reality.
>>153744851The show does start to get a bit preachy around season 3. It has some moments that are more political than they needed to be and seeing Bojack relapse again did get old. But I didn't completely dislike the later the seasons. If the story they're trying to tell is that addiction is a lifelong thing for some people and it's easy to fall off the wagon, then sure. Let's see him get hooked again even after trying to make an effort. Even if the way the show handled it was kinda shitty.In my opinion, the show should have ended at pic related and completely dropped the whole investigative reporters undercover the real truth behind Sarah Lyn's death plot. It was a pointless retcon. And I much whether have the show end with Bojack stumbling, making mistakes, and finally making a real big change for himself with wishful thinking that it'll work out for him then getting the ridiculously ending we got.But that's the thing. The story they were telling wasn't necessarily about lifelong battles with addition, and shows aren't allowed to have ambiguous endings where what happens is up to the audience interpretation.
>>153745096This is a lot of cope to ignore how Avatar is focused on a real conflict with actual physical stakes instead of pseudo-intellectual emotionally manipulative frippery.
>>153747475I appreciate you understanding what I'm saying, and I'm not gonna try to pick your point apart or sway you too much, but I'll add on to what I was saying earlier, springboarded by your comment.>Some people are just too asshole-ish to really forgive.Yeah, it can be impossible for us to forgive someone by our own egos. In these cases, in Christianity, we set our egos aside, submit to God's will, and forgive anyway, which is kind of a difficult, counterintuitive work-around. It doesn't really mean you don't establish boundaries, just that you stop holding on to anger and stop attempting any personal punitive motivation behind your boundaries if that makes sense.>the offense can be too egregious to be forgivenI disagree, but I didn't always. I didn't speak to my mother for almost 7 years from some childhood stuff. Even 7 years later, I was still having imaginary arguments with her in my car on my drive to work. It wasn't until I forgave her that that stopped and I started to feel better. In a way, refusing to forgive is almost an extension and maintenance of the hurt that person committed against the victim in the first place. Forgiveness is necessary to put that hurt to an end.
>>153747572>This is a lot of cope to ignore how Avatar is focused on a real conflict with actual physical stakesThat's certainly the case, but that actually make the ending resolution worse since everything bends over backwards to let Aang not do anything he doesn't want to
the problem with therapy speak in these shows is that it doest really lead anywhere. its supposed to be a scene of self reflection to spark a major change in the character, but nothing changes and the show returns to status quo immediately by the end of the episode. its superficial, the appearance that something big is changing but really nothing does. performative even
>>153743824therapy speak is what writers do when they can't get the audience to figure out a characters' motivations on their own, so they just tell you what they're thinking and feeling
>>153747572That's not a cope, in fact it's agreeing with what you're saying in a more roundabout way.
>>153747633>That's certainly the case, but that actually make the ending resolution worse since everything bends over backwards to let Aang not do anything he doesn't want toI'd wager that was a limitation of the show being targeted to kids and shown on Nick. I 1000% believe that thematically and by all the characterization leading up to that point, Aang was supposed to at least be willing to kill the Fire Lord.
>>153740966therapyspeak is a bigger problem than that inconsequential shit you mentioned
>>153740854unironically, anons on /co/ could generally benefit from actually getting therapy
>>153747600I hear you. I guess we're both two sides on the concept of forgiveness. >Jesus tells us to forgive, and that there is power in forgivenss>But also that sometimes, reality will still ensue, and sometimes, people just won't forgive you, even if you do your best after the fact.
>>153747787nta, but I guess that's a consequence of "second screen" nonsense. That or people that can't go to tv tropes to get a better understanding after the plot.
>>153749135Yep, and I think those are both completely reasonable stances to take even if they're in opposition. Thanks for a good exchange, anon. Blessings.
>>153745606>not some millionaireLOL, that honestly does put it in Moral Orel's favor. Just about any Christian could relate to Orel.
>>153748896Why? Because you find it annoying?
>>153749446I'm NTA, but I'd say it normalizes idolizing one's own "trauma/healing" cycle, which is not only annoying, but unhealthy, especially when an entire segment of society starts doing it because it's in all the media they consume.
Normal words, but a bump guy
>>153746818Are you saying this was bad?
>>153751457Kek, no, of course that's an exception. I can't imagine being so much of a chud that I'd have anything less than the utmost respect for a woman self-inserting and dressing down the canonical smartest being in the universe. It's unimpeachably stunning and brave.
>>153744567Kind of. It also has a lot of overlap with people just using a lot of flowery buzzwords and invalidating excuses to dance around what they truely mean so they can't really be held accountable for their own actions and make it seem like it's purely the other parties fault if they get upset. I like to call political talk more because it's a lot of words to say nothing but is so construed that you could easily play devil's advocate in case they lose.
>>153740854Or you could just stop being such an asshole, OP. Just saying
>>153749495Acknowledgement of one's trauma is not idolizing it, you insipid twit.
>>153747756Exactly. Worse is most the time it feels like they are just using it to bounce around and deflect from their own issues to makw themselves seem like they did no wrong.
>>153751766Insipid means bland and doesn't really apply to what you're replying to. Use words you understand and you'll look smarter, even if your words are simple.
>>153744004Fair, I started watching it when I was 13 and stopped when I was 15. Now that I'm 23 I would probably see it a lot differently.>>153744851>those fucking journalist characters who fuck him upI've seen a clip of what you're talking about, it seems like the writers were just hellbent on tearing Bojack apart for dating/having sex with grown women because apparently they're too retarded to say no to someone who is older, someone they work with, or someone who's famous. I understand that the past coming back to bite you in the ass is a huge part of the show, but I never liked media where the writers just torture the main character and act like that's justice.
>>153747600>Forgiveness is necessary to put that hurt to an end>girl I lost my virginity to falsely accused me of raping her after the fact, only recanted quite literally as they were about to issue an arrest warrant (i was fifteen)>other girl that I dated for years whom i was about to propose to dumps me out of the blue for still vaguely defined reasonsYeah, no, fuck those bitches. If holding onto hurt means I never have to deal with thier horse shit again, so be it
>>153751766You're fucking retarded if you think people aren't out here idolizing their trauma.
>>153751857>If holding onto hurt means I never have to deal with thier horse shit again, so be itI don't think you have to deal with their bullshit again, anyway, anon. You're a grown man. They can't hurt you.
>>153751906Exactly. They're way back there now and that's that. I just hate people acting like holding on to rightfully earned enmity is a moral failing of some kind. Nothing gives anyone the right to tell anyone else how they should experience thier own pain. AT BEST it makes you sound like an asshole.
>>153740876The board also doesn't want to admit that Adventure Time is responsible for everything that they blame Steven Universe for.
>>153749446yes. also that's what's plaguing the shows. cartoon porn talk is just forum shit, a different thing being affected by something else. why even bring that up in a thread that has nothing to do with it?
>>153743997Yes, the show gets more up its own ass with every season and spends most of its time trying to make you feel bad for Diann or impotently raging at capitalism and white men.
>>153747060>Bojack is a piece of shit and doesn't deserve forgivenessWhich is why he needs the grace of Jesus Christ (you are not better than Bojack)
>>153747060He only "lost" Diane because the writers handwaved someone bad he did off-screen that made her very angry.It's fairly absurd that after many years Todd is incapable of forgiving Bojack for sleeping with a girl he has no sexual interest in.
>>153747277>normal words.
>>153747497>shows aren't allowed to have ambiguous endings where what happens is up to the audience interpretationDon't act like the show had artistic ambitions that the audience was too plebian to allow them to pursue; they wanted to keep this thing rolling as many years as they could to get paychecks; it's why the ending it vauge and open-ended; so they can hope for a revivial however many years from now.
>>153747756Because its conflating exposition about emotions with emotional depth
>>153751514The best later addition to the show was the revelation that Rick was only the smartest because he set up the multiverse to only be linked to universes where that was the case. Because Rick’s defining charecteristic is “wasted potential”
>>153753717Taking a shit in someone's flower bed even when they dont engage in gardening is still taking a shit into someone's flower bed, anon. You just dont do that.
>>153751857Yeah the concept of "forgiveness but not holding a grudge or hatred towards them" doesn't make sense to me. All the people that I've never wanted to see ever again in my life have always done shit I've never felt like where forgivable in what I want in my life or what my values are. I've never had an explanation that made sense if they are even willing to tell me. A big reason why I don't trust therapists anymore is how none of them ever explain their advice or concepts, and when you ask they completely change like you just made a hyper personal attack against them.
>>153754064>Consensual sex is taking a shit in someone's garden bed.Todd doesn't own Emily, anon, and he's not even interested in her sexually. She can fuck whoever she wants. Retarded take.
>>153749420I related more to Clay and it fucked me up when I realized that most of his issues were also mine.
>>153754064Validity of the metaphor aside, do you think you could forgive someone for shitting in your flower bed 10 years later?
>>153754537I could probably forgive someone for shitting in my flower bed two weeks to a month later at the latest.
>>153754927maybe this says more about Todd than Bojack, hence the ending is a failure
>>153753762You're a very cynical person. Has anyone ever told you that before?
>>153757372They put Bojack's development on a treadmill.
Todd, the Pink Cat, and Diane is easily the worst thing to have happen in his life.
>>153757463Before the pink cat, evidently he was just chilling for 2 decades. If you think about it, she killed Sarah Lynn because she couldn't leave him the fuck alone.
>>153757463The fuck did Princess Caroline do? Todd was a leech who got upset because two consenting adults had sex and because Bojack bought him a videogame. Diane was just a massive noxious cunt. But Princess Caroline did nothing. She was actually a victim of Bojack.
>>153758999>The fuck did Princess Caroline do?One of the more recent stuff is she was suppose to look after Bojack, but she had a woman moment, went half away across a country just to adopt a kid. Had she remain and DO HER JOB and look after Bojack, Bojack wouldn't get fucked by a motorcycle accident that lead him to being addicit to pain killers that lead to a whole lot of shit.
