Is there a reason so many artists and animators are averse to screenwriting despite aspiring to be storytellers? Alright, I get it if you're doing gag stuff like Misadventures of Flapjack or Looney Tunes, but 95% of cartoons now-a-days are not that. They're narrative and dialogue-driven stories with developing character arcs and nobody talks about the writing aspect of their work. They'll talk about what art skills you need, show you how to do storyboards, show off behind-the-scenes production art, but rarely talk about the writer's room (if there is one), previous drafts, or even bring up good references to use when starting to write your own animated series. Why?
>>153742864>but rarely talk about the writer's room (if there is one), previous drafts, or even bring up good references to use when starting to write your own animated series. Why?Because they see the visions in their heads and can DRAW it. What you should ask is why do they not hire someone to WRITE a manuscript for them.
>>153742911But why bother with that? Why not just develop the skills to write the same way as one would develop the skills to do character design, animation, or background art? It would be far more useful to learn even the fundamentals of writing than it would be filling up a sketchbook once a month or something.
>>153742864well, I tried learning at least, I took a screenwriting workshop and a year of english classes
>>153742945Why do people who write not learn to draw? You're not making sense.
>>153743209Because not everyone who wants to write will turn it into a comic book or an animation. However, the people who are interested in comics and cartoons and want to tell their own story are definitely going to be writing at some point. There are few exceptions to this, again, gag-based stuff or abstract things such as ENA or Aeon Flux. But for the most part, artists are going to be telling rather straight-forward stories where they should understand how to write dialogue, how to build up tension, how to wrap your theme around every act of your story, and so on. I'm not saying the random artist who wants to be a character designer and work for big studios should learn how to write, but the hundreds of people making their own pitch bibles should at least write a script maybe a few times in their life. What is the interest in wanting to tell a story but then just hiring someone else to write it?
>>153743278>However, the people who are interested in comics and cartoons and want to tell their own story are definitely going to be writing at some pointNot really. Tools like a screenplay are for prople who need to communicate their vision to the team, but if you're already an artist you can skip directly to storyboard or layout.
>>153743322I guess I just don't understand the desire to invent characters and then want to hire someone to tell you how they should think and what their arc should be. Isn't that part of the fun of storytelling? Figuring out how the pieces align and having those "Eureka!" moments where you finally get a scene to work?
>>153743209Actually, a lot of artists in the past took influences from books to write better dialogues, but these days your usual young, aspiring artist gain inspiration from anime/video games over reading books. You might even notice that they're completely illiterate in the US.
>>153742864They're averse to screenwriting because it's a redundant part of their medium. There is nothing you can describe in a screenplay that a semi-competent artist can't represent faster and more specifically by starting with the storyboards themselves. You'll only hear about scripts specifically if you look into big by-committee shows (Rick and Morty) or shows (co-)ran by bad artists (A:TLA). For any other show, pay more attention during behind-the-scenes talks about storyboarding and you'll find that the discussions of scene rewrites are already there.
>>153742864Narrative and dialogue-driven cartoons exist to make up for the lower animation budgets.
>>153742864Unlike you, actual artists and animators don't see writing as a separate aspect of storytelling. As previously said, scripts are mostly for giving direction when you're handing the visual work to someone else. If you're handling writing and art yourself, it's just a step in the work flow and you don't give much thought to the revision process the way a dedicated writer would.
>>153743553>>153743322what the fuck do you think voice actors work off, the thumbnails?
>>153742864Because writers are an often over hyped part of the process.
>>153744778You resort to profanity because all you can contribute is changing the subject to another job that doesn’t draw.Animation without dialogue is actually common these days since it requires no translation, like Tom and Jerry.>>153744812They’re hyped up by people who want to be the writers.
>>153743448I'm an aspiring visual medium writer but I can't for the life of me read a book because my vocabulary and imagination isn't good enough so most pieces of literature don't mean much to me. However, I'd say my vocabulary and imagination is good enough for most things including visual mediums.
>>153742864they honestly should. editing screenplays is way easier than having to redraw storyboards
>>153744778It depends on the specific production but yeah, one of the common processes is ro have the actors record their voices over subtitled thumbnails or layout. Then you do a simple retiming pass and you're all set for the final layout phase.
>>153745183You know goddamn well what was meant, plus that would technically mean your artists are working off the VAs.Ultimately the problem, even within the thread, is that for the vast majority of productions the art and the writing are important as they're both used as methods of storytelling simultaneously.
>>153743553>>153743932there are lots and lots of script-driven shows!
>>153745183that certainly explains why most cartoon dialogue is dogshit these days
>>153742864Bias
People wrote with drawings first.
>>153745378>w - chick>o - chick>u - chickwow, how helpfulno wonder these morons aren't alive anymore
>>153742864I'm someone who writes comics in screenwriter format. After I hire some concept artists to lock in designs, I'm hoping to find artists to do the panel work. >Why not learn to draw, yourself? I don't like it. It takes too long and I cannot trust my hands to put the image I have in mind down right which means a lot of wasted time. It is simply not for me. >But you can get good with practiceI don't care. The idea of practicing until I'm good at something I don't enjoy doing just so I can make my comic by myself sounds miserable.I imagine it feels this way for artists who don't want to also be writers.
A lot of cartoonists are dumb and don't believe that writing is a skill that needs to be developed because "anyone" can do it.
>>153742864>Is there a reason so many artists and animators are averse to screenwriting despite aspiring to be storytellersBecause of johk K unironically. Before cans without labels and the pedo allegations tarnished his reputation, john was pretty popular with alot of up and coming animators in the late 00s and early 10s. He had a blog that was super influential too where he would say some interesting things but also some bat shit retarded takes and opinions from himself. One of the strongest opinions john has had and still has is that cartoons should never be written by scripts and should only be storyboarded. Thats fine for maybe a gag cartoon like ren and stimpy, but for shows with a serious plot and more continued narrative a script is much better and essential for writing a story while a storyboard just fucks up the process more. Also i wanna say i think its funny how all the modern industry types say they always hated john when its very clear if you do some digging many of the modern big show runners were metaphorically riding his dick 15-20 years ago. Rebecca sugars first comic pug davis even has a quote from john on the back of the comic saying how great he thought beckys art was. John K is still a nutbag tho lmfao.
>>153743209There's always salty ass intentionally obtuse doomer posts like this in comic book threads. Swear some fags just want the medium to continue on as shit
>>153743322Why can't an artist communicate his vision through writing and art? You need both to make a story. No reason more artists can't write their own shit
>>153745722Writing is about more than having a vision. Internal logics and consistencies come are uncovered, articulated, and refined in the writing process. Leaving that out means your every storyline and idea is a first draft. Which is fine if your a narcissist who believe their work never needs improvement or an actual aberrant creative genius who never needs a second pass, but for most people the process is important. A lot of artists don't enjoy that part of writing.
>>153745461Based American.
>>153745572Good drawing is evidence of how hard you worked to develop your skill. Good writing is evidence you were too lazy to draw.
>>153745755Anon please they are animators for a century they struggled with lip sync now that the ai does all the lip sync for them they feel like they are ready to animate free of the constraints of well thought dialogue
>>153745722You can convey a story entirely without writing (eg Flow) and also without visuals (tons of books)
>>153745899Yeah but we want cartoons with good dialogue and good art
>>153745920You either need two people or one person doing the work of two. The most successful managaka who do both illustration and writing spend like 16 hours a day 6 days a week at the table doing their drawing and writing. If you want a sustainable workforce and delivery timeline, you either need a partner or you need to be that disciplined.
>>153745953Or we could improve conditions somewhat for our existing creatives and schedule according to the demands of production rather than capital
>>153742864>Is there a reason so many artists and animators are averse to screenwriting despite aspiring to be storytellers?It's partly a manifestation of Maslow's Hammer. Blind spots are blind spots.It's always worth noting that Looney Tunes had a head writer, Michael Maltese. He did come from a visual arts background, but the pertinent thing is that "head writer" was still a role in a gag cartoon. It's a function that's necessary. It also doesn't need to be filled by the animation person.>but rarely talk about the writer's roomBecause it's not their place to talk about it. The writers can speak for themselves.
>>153746771Go ahead you can create on whatever schedule you want. But if you adopt a slow pace of work that results in a slow release schedule, audiences will drop you for other teams that produce the same quality of work and release twice as often. What is viable requires intense workloads and dedication. Sorry, champ, but economics like that are always gonna kick the ass of people who don't respect them as legitimate constraints.
>>153744848>I can't for the life of me read a book because my vocabulary and imagination isn't good enough soopinion 100% discarded. Ameritards will come up with any excuse not to read a fucking book. It's as a pathetic and shameful as fatties hand-wringing about why it's impossible for them to exercise or improve their diet
>>153746894>Paying people what they’re worth and give them the time to do their jobs properly instead of bloating exec overhead, and maybe more people would develop both skillsets in a sustainable fashion>Sorry champ, you hate effort
>>153746936>Marxist faggot blames economic realities on wealthy people who were not even mentioned.Par for the course.
>>153746983God, you're so stupid.
>>153746894Slow good work is far more important then fast bad work. You can sucker people for a time with fast delivery. But when the holes and flaws start piling up people just walk. And we arent talking about oldschool 50+ eps a year(ie 80s transformers and og she-ra) stuff with lots of specislized talent having to co-ordinate. We are talking about now where talent is everywhere and easily reached and tje tech is cheap and free.There is no excuses here. Lool at the absolute debacle of the last season of invincible.
>>153747038Nope.
>>153745306Art is part of the writing in cartoons. Like musical notation is in music, not just lyrics. Exactly the same.>>153745616Exhibit A of a slimy weasel who only cares about manufacturing a narrative for his benefit, not in accordance with truth and results.Go back to jerking off>>153745920In most classic cartoons you wouldn’t care about the dialogue without the acting and drawings.>>153745722Established Artists these days can’t write because they’re woke. They can’t say “sexy babe” so they can’t write a Johnny Bravo episode. They wouldn’t put in Ed Edd n Eddy style slapstick and character dynamics because it’s ‘mean’ so their equivalent cartoons like Craig of the Creek are just boring. Etc
>>153746983I don’t think people who make cartoons are too lazy to write well, I think they largely get stuck serving priorities that are at odds with developing good writers/writing and secure long term commercial gains
>>153747052>other teams that produce the same quality of work and release twice as often.>same quality of workYou're arguing against a point I didn't make.
>>153747076That's an astute observation. And those priorities have a lot of sources, too. Executive meddling comes to mind as one of the worst examples. Marketing contracts, studio ESG agreements, etc no doubt account for a lot of the issues we see.
being good at drawing doesn't mean you're good at writing. some storyboard artists just shouldn't write scripts and that's fine, but it hurts their ego to acknowledge that.
>>153747052The old high quality stuff was developed on totally different schedules and costs though, tech improvements compressed expectations until the new status quo was taken for granted as the way it has to be done
>>153746936Execs aren’t your sugar daddies. And bean blob Tumblr-raised artists aren’t worth much.>>153745572Making comics and cartoons develops writing. You don’t need to write scripts for that.>>153746884He wasn’t a script writer or someone in charge of what the artists could make. >>153747162You act like these are innate and immutable traits. Ability comes from practice. If they write cartoons and they’re sensible, they’ll be good at it.
>>153747192They will be competent at itWriting good is very tough, it takes more than practice, words have to like you
>>153747159Limited life experience too
>>153743115and then what happened
>>153745306>that would technically mean your artists are working off the VAs.Right. Both are true. The VAs base their delivery on what they see in the storyboards, and the animators time their animation against that delivery.
>>153749948What's the usual high level workflow for animation? I don't feel like that's well known.
>>153751390That really already covered it, but to lay it all out.>storyboards get made (whether that's the initial product or built on a script depends on the project)>VAs do their pre-lay (and some form of boss narrows it down to the good takes, if they have the luxury of multiple takes to begin with)>higher-up animator listens to the pre-lay and hammers out the key frames based on it, so the specifics of the character's movements and expressions can match the audio>slave labor handles the rest (either by manually animating between the key frames or setting up the more automated tweening if they're using rigging)All of that is variable, though. You can come up with a few examples on your own of shows where the show-runner is a VA and overrides the script when they get in the booth. Japan operates on much tighter timelines, so the animation will sometimes begin (or wrap up) before the VAs get to a studio. The same applied a lot in the west back when 3D animation was more cutting-edge and rerendering was prohibitively expensive. It's not unheard of for the workflow to cycle back a step for revisions, but it's typically a sign something/someone fucked up hard.
>>153751390>>153751652To add a bit onto this, the rough timing can be done based on non-final voice actors (usually staff members, because boarders are often required to act out their scripts at meetings to check timings and jokes anyway so they know how to do it), and then you have the voice actors base their delivery on layouts or partial footage or even near-final footage, leaving only the lip-sync (if even that) and maybe some re-timing.While in the past all that involved tons of paper, in the digital age you can lay down or even create your storyboard directly in a video editor timeline as soon as possible, divide it into shots, then you progressively replace each shot with its more refined versions, and write/draw feedback directly on them.the idea of the whole process is to push the costly parts as far down the pipeline as possible so that all creative decisions are taken before them, but of course what is costly depends on circumstances. Used to be the drawing/rendering but these days many productions use near real-time engines like UE or Eevee so it's not as big of a problem.In 3d especially it's possible to parallelize a whole bunch of stuff, like you can animate before anything's fully modeled (and the whole idea of the layout phase is to animated all the camera movement so you can identify what needs to be modeled in the first place)That also means you can correct a bunch of stuff late in the process but as anon said that still means someone fucked up. In any company that's careful about budget and/or timing there'll be some process about that that limits the number of retakes you're allowed. Stuff like how at Glitch there's max 3 retakes per shot before going into crisis mode, and only a dozen lighting setups per episode, built on key scenes and copy-pasted on the others, etc.
>>153752321>the rough timing can SOMETIMES be done based on non-final voice actorsis what I meant to write. S1 of Wakfu is an example.
>>153752321Good post.
>>153749598I dropped out of english classes to go to art school and the kids book I was writing / made a script for never became a thing
