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>>154770321
Just look under your belly, Adam.

>>154770321
Adam should be licking Lute’s feet

>>154770333
Have you seen the size difference? More like he slurps up the whole foot and vacuum sucks then spits it out shiny and new.

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>>154770321
Speaking of SaggingArts...

>>154770360
This becomes infinitely funnier if Lute is Eve.

>>154770396
Fingers crossed

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>>154770396
While I can see that, all I'd be thinking of is, well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAeI5KODLA

>>154770396
>Lute is Eve
Is that actually possible? I don’t see what she would gain from hiding herself and keeping her distance if it was her and she still cared that much about Adam.

>>154770443
It's probably a punishment, not something she's actively choosing for herself.

>>154770468
That’s retarded.

>>154770482
You don't think Heaven would punish Eve?

>>154770443
Are you new to these threads? Genuine question.

>>154770490
Not in that retard way. No.

>>154770500
Do you have any counterarguments other than 'that's retarded'?

>>154770443
It's literally the most probable explanation for where Eve has been all this time.

>>154770506
They could just make Eve a servant on a leash without the whole secret identity and military operation thing.

Fuck. I gotta summon Looty to explain Lute=Eve again.

>>154770512
Dude she's literally Eve. Stop ignoring all the signs and take a good look at things.

>>154770443
TLDR: https://x.com/cyjammy/status/1751608597929234504

>Jessica Vosk: She's Adam's right hand & she is going to surprise you in a really big way. She is not who you think she is, https://www.creepykingdom.com/post/hazbin-hotel-jessica-daphne

>Jessica Vosk: I think I’m surprised at what’s to come, & I think everybody will have a lovely mouth wide open gasp. & there’s a lot that’s to come, but I must say the villain era is strong with this one, https://screenrant.com/hazbin-hotel-jessica-vosk-daphne-rubin-vega-interview/?utm_content=buffer6fb62&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_source=SR-TW&utm_campaign=SR-TW

>Amir Talali: “There’s a depth to Lute that I feel like we’ve only scratched the surface of so far & so I want to know what’s behind that, what led up to this & what’s going to happen.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=713&v=rQOwHIBdE_k&feature=youtu.be

I have... so much more. But you get the gist. You're welcome (she's Eve. Trust.) We're most likely going to get the reveal at the end of season three. Jessica Vosk said that we'd get this 'surprise' at the end of season two. But Viv later confirmed all the Lilith stuff got pushed to season three and Jessica acknowledged that none of the stuff she said would happen with Lute did, but that "Lute would have her time to shine at some point."

>>154770522
The only feature about Lute related to Eve is loving Adam and that’s superficial and sexist.

>>154770500
Someone's not watching the show.

>>154770514
You summoned me with your mind

>>154770546
>The only feature about Lute related to Eve is loving Adam and that’s superficial and sexist.

Oh. You're one of those types. Not sure if you're worthy of an explanation. Feel like you'd still ignore everything.

>>154770546
I smell a bug. Someone get the insect repellent

>>154770321
If this show is based they’ll find a way to bring back Adam and him and Eve will sing a duet while fucking

>>154770560
Well. Viv did imply we'd get a song with Abel, Lute and Adam as they have 'the best rock voices in the show' and implied that Adam's kids are in the rock genre. So.. make of that what you will

>>154770558
Nah. Bugcuck is too misogynist to talk like that. He'd say some crap like "It would ruin Lute's character by making her a bad mom please ignore that my schizo headcanon has Eve being the worst mom in existence because I have issues when it comes to women".

>>154770546
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>154770554
Screw headcanon explanations and lore maggots. They are off their rocker and never been right about anything. Alastor. Vox. And whoever becomes the J J Abrams mystery box character of the day.

>>154770560
>>154770567
Kek I meant to write Lute. You guys have fully convinced me theyre the same person now. Adam, Lute, Abel, Lucifer are probably my favorite singing voices for sure

>>154770554
They will. And then they will make some convoluted explanation about how the same thing DOESN'T apply to Eve, for some reason.

>>154770546
>Small and covered in blood, bleached white, RIBLIKE
>Hallucination Adam specifically points out that she's menstruating (a traditional curse on Eve)
>A whole lot of imagery tying her to Adam as one body and flesh (grafts his halo to her arm, calls him the only soul who ever completed her)
>Strongly associated with the colors red and silver (Eve's traditional colors in heraldry, not green or whatever)
Maybe if your image of Eve only comes form Sunday school or VeggieTales?

>>154770580
Nope, not headcanons. Comments from the crew and Viv. Try harder next time.

>>154770586
Forget all that, literally Jessica Vosk said Lute is not who we think she is and then NDA'd her ass on her own twitter by requoting the Lute/Eve theory, which she then deleted. Only someone who's braindead doesn't get that.

>>154770468
A punishment that wouldn’t allow her any way to communicate who she really is, or would there be a reason for her to want to keep her identity a secret? I was surprised about the lack of Lilith in s2 considering the finale of 1 so not seeing all the other future characters this early wouldn’t be a shock, the show has weird priorities at times
>>154770493
Yeah just got back into the show recently
>>154770543
Well that explains a bit thanks. I dunno feels like they could do a bit more with the character. She has potential to be pretty interesting but as is it feels like she has a one track mind

Kinda funny that we get more talk about Roo (she was on the dry erase board and Viv has tweeted about her) and she gets a voice actor announced.

But nothing on Eve. You know. Abel's mom? Adam's second wife? But yeah okay makes total sense we get more info on someone who's name we haven't gotten in-universe yet (besides Martha in Helluva Boss) - she's not even an established character yet, the closest she's mentioned is by Charlie in the opening, how Heaven fought against Evil for a long time before they created Adam and Lilith.

But nothing on Eve. Huh. It's almost like we got her. Eh. Probably nothing.

>>154770604
Speaking of Lilith it's funny how Lute can waltz right up to her and threaten her daughter while bleeding to death and not expect to be immediately obliterated right? Unless maybe they have history...

>>154770604
>I dunno feels like they could do a bit more with the character. She has potential to be pretty interesting but as is it feels like she has a one track mind
I have no idea how this doesn't register as uninteresting to you. Her being Eve is p fucking cool (assuming that's the case). If she weren't... then what, just a rando Exorcist who never got to suck Adam's dick? Former human that got wronged / murdered? Ehh.

>>154770617
Nah. Nah we're just imagining things. Lute is clearly nobody significant or anything. She's a heavenborn exorcist angel made only for the Exterminations (wink)

>>154770619
Not to mention they're giving her 4 fucking seasons to simmer when even prettyboy Vox only got one season of setup. That's an awful lot of time spent building up this one character right?

>>154770619
*interesting, not uninteresting.

You will learn quickly that I can't type for shit.

>>154770586
To also add some Schizo shit I found out.

>Her voice and the way she talks with Lilith during the ending beach scene is incredible weird and different from her usual manner of speaking. Almost like she's not hiding who she is from Lilith.

>>154770626
HMMM... Nah, she's definitely a random background henchwoman with no real history to her other than being Adam's sycophant. She's definitely not Eve, guys. It's not like the voice actor interacted with the theory or anything. Oh wait...

>>154770634
I'm on the fence about this one to be honest. I don't really see it. Reminds me of the whole 'her eyes are drawn just like Lilith's' as if the entire show doesn't hinge on Viv's design. It's not uncommon to see that eye shape on her female characters.

>>154770582
Eve has zero lines and dialogue and the character establishment of a Wendy’s logo. You can put a lady furry in as Eve and it wouldn’t make a difference.

People got hyped on the Lute train over this idea of Adam being a washed up dad that gets a girl that loves him after being eternally divorced from Eve. And it might as well be what they deliver or they’ll burn down the whole kitchen by their cooked up writing as always.

>>154770660
You can already get this plotline. Adam's intended wife - the one created as his perfect equal - the stunningly beautiful and tall LILITH - left him, and now divorced man falls in love with his strange shortass wife #2 who was made out of his bones and is covered in blood.

>>154770660
>eternally divorced from Eve.
Why are people desperate to have Eve repeat what Lilith did to Adam. He DID get the girl that loves him: Eve. Lilith is the one who bounced.

>>154770686
>>154770691
E X A C T L Y

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>>154770686
Short wife supremacy

>>154770691
Lilith hang out with Adam for a total amount of a day or two. Eve was a much more serious marriage Adam had for centuries. Enough time for them both to change and decide for themselves.

>>154770708
>>154770686
Funny thing, the people that are desperate for 'but muh leaks!1' and the whole thing with Eve being a Lilith twin is that... Lute does actually look like a Lilith twin almost (the cowlick) give her long hair, make it blonde: she's fraternal twin. Literally a small, gremlin, bootleg copy of Lilith.

It's Eve.

>>154770714
No? They were together long enough for Lilith and Lucifer to develop a whole romance in the background.

>>154770728
>We have Lilith at home

>>154770714
>Lilith hang out with Adam for a total amount of a day or two.
... you're taking the storybook at literal face value?

>Eve was a much more serious marriage Adam had for centuries. Enough time for them both to change and decide for themselves.
Yeah. That doesn't negate what I said: Lilith bounced, she's the intended spouse, the 'true' soulmate. Eve is the girl that loves him. Even speaking in context with their mythologies / history, Lilith is independence, Eve is submissive. It'd be retarded to have them /both/ be all about independence and wokeness. Jesus. Why do people want two Liliths.

>>154770691
It's gets even weirder when people have Eve but just turn her into Lute 2.0( woman angry over Adam's death and planning revenge) but still want them to be separate characters. People usually want Eve to be a literal copy of a preexisting character while said character already fullfils that role. It just creates redundancy.

>>154770728
Lute looks so much like a weird mix of Adam and Lilith that before Season 2 I even thought she might be their daughter.

>>154770728
Lute failing the sexy test is exactly why she gotten quickly replaced by tall bombshell diva queen Eve.

>>154770740
Literally what the Angels said when they showed Eve/Lute to Adam.

>>154770754
I'm a hardcore Lute/Eve truther (local Lute/Eve schizo Looty here, hello) but in a completely separate idea... her being Cain's wife would have been cool and would have explained just as much.

Vaggie should've just been killed by Lute, sacrificing herself so everyone else can power the gay-zerbeam and stop the nuke. Could've given Charlie a character moment where instead of giving into rage like Lute she proves she's a better person by focusing on keeping the city from blowing up

>>154770741
I don’t care what your fanfic says. Adam was dhmped by Lilith at Eden. And he was dumped Eve at the afterlife. His chicks would rather go to hell than be with him.

>>154770748
I still don't understand why. Narratively speaking, it gets convoluted. They want three female figures all impacted by Adam in some way, supposedly representing different things, but they just make Eve a Lilith #2 (basically a 'what if Lilith stayed AU') and they want Lute to be the prize when that makes zero sense.

You've got two women: one is independence, the other is dependence. One fights against the system, the other is part of the system. It even lines up with their mythologies. What is the point of having a third figure, in this context.

>>154770757
Lute/Eve is a victim of heightism. Grim.

>>154770748
Lilith Eve is just Lilith but actually evil and competent.

>>154770757
Nah. Lute is Eve. That's the point. She's the off brand Lilith made of bone and blood.

>>154770778
>Say that they don't care about fanfiction
>Proceeds to dump their fanfiction headcanon

Nice

>>154770778
>Accusing me of fanfic while writing your own
lmao. Nobody wants your fanfiction here.

>>154770784
Adam with a size fetish

>>154770782
Eve’s arc in becoming Lilith is all on her deciding to hate on the kids she made, the Heaven Adam and Lute bow to, and wanting to be a much more powerful and respected woman like she was promised by Lucifer and Lilith back in Eden.
Lilith doesn’t disown her biggest suckies. She tries to keep all of them to her boobies.

>>154770800
If Eve was with him she would be in heaven with him without some secret identity.

>>154770786
Imagine calling the Mother of Demons not evil and incompetent, but wanting the Mother of Humanity to do the same exact things she does.

That is.. wow. Are you that obsessed with Lilith that Adam's second wife has to be her carbon copy. Sounds like you've got some wires crossed there buddy

>>154770813
Bugcuck is back. Did you get banned you retard or did you decide to take a break?

>>154770757
Abel and Lute are around the same height. It makes much more sense for Eve to have been short. Roughly Lute's height.

>>154770813
>Eve’s arc in becoming Lilith
>she would be in heaven with him without some secret identity.
Okay I'm DEFINITELY smelling a bug now, you guys.

>>154770823
Viv wanted to focus on Eve being unfairly punished. Her being forced to hide who she is works in this context.

>>154770825
Lilith in this show given no births except maybe Charlie. Every sinner came from Eve and they are all a bunch of demons worse than all of the hellborns in hell somehow.

>>154770833
Yeah it's him. He smelled a new fag and is now trying ( currently failing) to convince him that his schizophrenic NTR fanfic is cannon.

>>154770835
Looty here with the quotes!
>Vivienne: “Especially the— the biggest one for me is the Adam & Eve story, cuz it's like so iconically known, but it's also one that's used so often to pin the blame on women & put women down. [ & ] that's something that, growing up, I was like: that's really fucked [ up? ] & so, in the show we will get a little bit more into that & we'll kind of explore it in a more [ again ] more female gaze way, & in a little bit more of a critical way… but in a fictionalized way as well, which I’m excited for…”

>Vivienne: Lute is the angriest character I think I've ever made. She is fueled by rage.
>Sam: Like a feminine rage of the character.
>Vivienne: Yeah, literally...

>Vivienne: “[ ... ] Obviously we got Lute too. But Lute also is uh, I call her a sleeper villain. We set her up big & we know her goal, but she keeps being restricted, & she keeps being put into a box, & I think that's the point. She is a character that needs to simmer because she is like, a ticking time bomb. So she's the villain we establish, she is a villain, she's got problems. Here are what her problems are, here is how the world is not helping with those problems & we're going to see what that results in.”

Lute is literally doing what: the old alleged leaks outlined Eve would do & is doing what the Lute haters/Eve lovers say Eve is going to do .... She's literally Eve. Abel came out of her vagina

>>154770835
Sounds like a Jordan Peterson clip about getting cancer.

>>154770805
He did figure out she was easier to reposition during sex. That was probably an advantage.

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What the hell is even up with this dude? Why is he such a fraud?

>>154770855
Not familiar with the guy or the bit. You'll have to enlighten me.

>>154770855
Holy non sequitur, Batman!

>>154770852
And besides Viv liking that one post about Eve killing people with hammers, we also got Sam Haft:
>Lute as a villain is truly bloodthirsty in a way that we hadn't seen a villain so far in the story.

Viv again:
>She’s the character with the most pent-up, the most built-up emotions, in terms of how she's treated, & her just witnessing all the other narratives between Heaven & Hell.

And Miss Vosk:
>We'll slowly see things being set up with Lute, that kind of come to fruition in a large way in S2. & she's one of the angels that you see for one of those reasons, when it comes to the arc of what happens between Heaven & Hell.

(I take a bow)

>>154770870
https://youtube.com/shorts/2UZOfZULLe0?si=bSbZ8bMVur6F7wvq

not gonna lie, it's comical how... like, idk how to explain, subtle but also obvious how Viv, Sam, Jessica etc are making this Lute Eve thing....

>>154770885
Maybe it’s because she isn’t Eve and she’s just some kind of mystery character that has no clues to solve with in the first place.

>>154770852
>Abel came out of her vagina
i'm fuicking crying

>>154770903
Sure thing bro. Definitely.

>>154770903
>she’s just some kind of mystery character that has no clues
Jessica already confirmed there is clues. Many of which are in the show and in Viv, Sam, Jessica etc interviews. You're not trying too hard at being stupid today, are you

>>154770911
It is a definitely. It’s Hazbin Hotel and lore and women are the last place for our gay romances to thrive.

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>>154770904
Yup.
He came.
He saw.
He disappointed.

>>154770885
truly the lilith/rosie/eve leaks were the greatest smokescreen of all time, it's so masterful that i almost want to pull a bugcuck myself and make a conspiracy theory about it being a planned misdirection and that ex employee was either in on it or someone that they honeytrapped with tainted info to see who leaks what.

>>154770912
Like what? We have no lore and backstory at all aside from what could have inspired Viv.

>>154770904
Well it explains why Viv never likes the ship art.

>>154770926
Also another element. But she liked a lot of art that has Lute act/serve as his mom.

>>154770926
Viv literally liked fanart of him calling her (weekend) mom - it was the Simpsons, with Millhouse and his dad + Abel hugging Adam and Lute, called a 'family'

Go on Viv, like a post of them making out. It's not like her and Abel are related right? Shouldn't be an issue...

>>154770918
The fact there's a character who's Adam's designated helper and female companion and her being Eve is considered a fringe theory is kind of astonishing.

>>154770935
Weekend mom implies Eve is the main one.

>>154770925
Bug shut the fuck up. This has been explained to you several times. Go over in your corner and coo about Zestial being Cain and Eve being Lilith or whatever. Nobody wants your fanfic

>>154770918
I know I sound schizo brain but the leaks are too perfect of a misdirection to be unintentional. I genuinely think they were planned and planted for this specific purpose.

>>154770941
Nope, the context is a Simpsons episode where Milhouse's biological dad is the 'weekend mom' and his biological mom is the normal mom.

>>154770941
You don't watch the Simpsons, do you. Millhouse called his dad 'weekend dad' because him and his mom were divorced, so the dad only got him on the weekends. It was his bio dad.

Lute is literal and bio Abel's mom. Cry about it.

>>154770944
What lore and backstory is in this show? There is no Cain and Abel backstory even to establish anything. The context is pick up the myths Viv was inspired from and see if she based characters on their lore.

>>154770941
Dude in that scene Millhouse is calling his bio dad "weekend mom". You can't be this fucking retarded.

>>154770941
the dad in that picture IS his biological dad, being called the 'weekend' dad, that's the joke.

>>154770948
I'm schizo but not that schizo. If that were true, the employee would have said so in the server (it was a Viv hate server) - it was just the information they had at the time, which not only did they not have a firsthand account of (they were not a writer) but by their own admission, it's been five (now six) years, so there's stuff they didn't remember.

>>154770957
So Zestial isn't Cain and the two are completely unrelated characters. Which makes sense since Zestial has zero Cain elements. Can't wait to see Cain in the show.

>>154770960
I know the Simpsons. The joke with Lute is that she doesn’t want to be called a mom by Abel.

>>154770957
>dunks on the Lute being Eve theory
>unironically thinks Zestial is Cain

Please. Please someone tell me this is an elaborate bit. He's not this crazy, right?

>>154770975
Holy fucking mental retardation

>>154770975
>meme about a child talking to their biological parent
>Actually, it's not about a child talking to their parent

>>154770992
>believes this hurts the Lute Eve theory
>supports the Lute Eve theory even more

>>154770985
Nope he's actually retarded. Like genuinely. Has a hearing disability and was raised in some strange offshoot cult of Christianity. Hates troons because his brother trooned out. He also has some questionable views on women.

>>154771003
Huh. That actually explains a lot...

>>154770865
He had an inferiority complex in life thanks to his skin color and took it out on others by trying to prove he is at the top of the food chain. Literally eating them after killing them. To the point of dealing with demons to grab every scrap of power because in reality he is powerless.

Thus in turn, he was hunted down like a prey animal, a deer. Not even purposefully but by accident, meaning it couldn't even be used to feed his ago about "being important enough to be hunted". When he ended up in Hell, his form features Wendigo symbolism because he is a cannibal man-eater, but in reality he is just a deer pretending to be something he is not. To the point of his skin color being lighter.

>>154770975
It's a kid with divorced parents where the parent who doesn't usually do the caretaking is doing some caretaking. Like Lute dragging Abel around on her schemes. She's not a great caretaker but she wants to get him involved

>>154771003
Do you even know what Christianity is about or that the rapture could literally occur at any time?

>>154771029
Yeah. Cause the artist looks at Adam as divorced man that got with Lute. Like most people do.

Someone stop him before he gets all preachy again. How about those leaky Adam tits, anyone? Or how about the breeding kink? Guys...?

>>154771047
It's not an artist, it's someone pasting Lute and Abel's heads onto a screenshot of Milhouse and his dad who looks exactly like him.

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>>154771021
Don't forget the fact that he also ended up as a slave of a white woman.

>>154771053
So what? Artists like ourselves are built to take elements and transform them all of the time. Not every reference means the original context.

>>154771063
They just said it wasn't an artist you stupid piece shit.

>>154771067
It is an artist. They took a meme format and used it for Abel and Lute. And you take it too seriously.

>>154771076
Brother you think Zestial is Cain and that Abel is some bloodthirsty mastermind. You have zero leg to stand on. Thank u, next.

Is this the NTR enjoyer / Zestial/Cain person??? oooo that makes sense...

>>154771052
adam has gone dry and infertile, you must go on a quest to fix him...

>>154771056
>white

>>154771544
She ain't black bro.

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Adam Funko Pop
Adam Funko Pop

>>154771853
>square jawed adam isn't real he can't hurt me

Idk why people mald over the whole al/rosie black/white thing, he literally summoned a demon to sell his soul for power, imagine how fucked up it would be if she was all like ohhh sorry man, you're black, im white, this would be bad optics and declined and he just went and died the next day anyways and ended up in hell as a normie sinner, that shit'd be ten times more racist

>>154772200
it's also not even close to a master/servant relationship anyway, because as far as we can tell she let him do whatever he wanted up until seven years ago, when she kept his ass quiet to escape the exterminations (presumably). at the start alastor's the one who reached out to her, made a deal without combing that shit with a fine-toothed comb, was arrogant enough to think he could dick down the first man, and then was still able to protest about the staff HE got broke freely, got told 'nah lol humble pie', went 'nah lol' in return by quitting the hotel and got his staff back in exchange for helping with the friendship beam.

I want Charlie’s reaction to the reveal to be more pissed off than anything. Pissed off at herself for not putting it together sooner, and at Lute/Eve for, well…

> “You have got to be shitting me. You fucking hypocrite. “Ooh, angels don’t make mistakes”, FUCK YOU!”

>>154772616
I don't think Charlie will have an attitude after she figures it out since Lute/Eve might end up in a position of power which forces Charlie to thread carefully.

>>154772616
>'hey remember when your parents told you i 'gladly' accepted the apple?'

>>154772846
Would actually be peak. Even more reasons to shit on the Morningfrauds.

>>154773289
Cute

>>154773289
>lute: oh my god is it happening? is it about to happen?? can he smell how much i want this oh god
>adam: why does lute never check for hell-ticks man there's a big one right on her neck...

>>154773507
He's gonna pull it out with his teeth and she'll cum from it

Got back from dunking on the polish. What did I miss?

>>154773554
nah he yanks out one of those little twisty sticks and pulls it off that way while lecturing her about her hygiene (again) and she goes home and pretends the little wound left behind is a hickey, which she cums from.

>>154773691
Revolting. Basically canon

>>154773707
if this is only two minutes into the video is he actually reacting to someone else's smash-list or does he just not understand retention bait?

>>154773959
It's his own tier list. I could see him fucking a car.

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>>154773978
>I could see him fucking a car.
Kachow

>>154773978
i guess he'd put charlie as unsmashable for his own safety...

>>154770543
Jessica really can't keep her mouth shut can't she? How is it possible that she's blabbed this much but the supposed fans literally ignore everything she has said. But then they don't do the same thing with Lucifer or vox's VAs?

>>154770608
Unless Roo IS Eve?

>>154774142
because vivziepop knows everyone's married to the 'eve=lilith' leaks and isn't going to pay attention to lute. people barely pay lute any mind now beyond beyond hateposting about how charlie should totally kill her to avenge vaggi or something or fantasising her being vaggi's submissive obedient slavewife, forever atoning for the sin of being groomed by adam <- this is what idiots think guitarspear is. in terms of her impact on the wider narrative, nobody's thinking about lute.

>>154774192
That's actually a good point. The leaks were incidentally the best thing to happen, in that sense. Assuming this is even true, I mean.

>>154774185
There isn't much that actually points to this. There's a popular fanfic I've never read that has a wiki that gets pushed above the 'real' wiki in search results pretty often and in that Eve is Roo. There's also an old leak which doesn't actually say Eve is Roo but is commonly retold between fans as though it does like a game of telephone.

>>154774192
>how charlie should totally kill her to avenge vaggi or something or fantasising her being vaggi's submissive obedient slavewife, forever atoning for the sin of being groomed by adam <- this is what idiots think guitarspear is
I hate this fucking fandom.

Lull me to sleep with your nonsense babbling.

>>154774238
That's every fandom.

>>154774227
Oh no, I know. I was just throwing something out there. I just find it weird that we have more information on her than Eve.

>>154774227
You know what's funny is that the author of that massive project confirmed that they actually got the whole Roo idea from Helluva Boss, because Martha used the phrase "Root of all Evil". Oh, and that they were honored people were confusing their stuff with the leaks. But yeah, I agree with you. No leaks have ever suggested this. People took it to assume that she was corrupting Eve like a parasite but that has never ever been said. I think people just saw the red and the eyes, then Eve taking the red apple and then gasped.

>>154774142
>>154774192
Because much of Lute's fanbase is literal larpers. I call them Lute Larpers. L.L. for short.

>>154774238
Yeah. Not a big fan of those types either. You need a special brand of mental Retardation to look at GuitarSpear and think "yeah Lute's definitely a lesbian and she never lived Adam". Can't wait for the reveal to mindbreak them because they will realise the woman they larped is actually Eve and she is tainted by their standards because she gave birth to Adam's children.

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Guitarspear be like

>>154774405
i wonder how the people who thought of guitarspear as siblings/father and daughter felt watching that one part of gravity where she straddles him.

>>154774500
Hope they felt like retards.

>>154774525
Bold of you to assume they can reflect. No, she has comphet now and is projecting on him to cover for her lust for pussy and/or Vaggie.

>>154774500
>>154774525
"Nooo!!! They RUINED their relationship?!?! She didn't act like that in Season 1!!!! This is a retcon!!!! They made her obsessed with him for no reason!!!"

Why can't a white chick just be an irredeemable piece of shit?

>>154774592
People like to claim Lute has nothing going on without Adam. Her obsession with Heavenly dogma is definitely something and it's not from Adam because he takes a laid back view of it all but erm erm straight people bad and boring.

>>154774626
>irredeemable
You're watching the wrong show

>>154774658
Adam didn't get redeemed.

>>154774664
yet

>>154774664
Adam got fridged for Eve. He's not that important outside her development arc. People are desperately clinging onto hope he's gonna come back as a main character lol

>>154774664
He was a juicy son of a bitch when he gets stabbed too.

>>154774695
Juicy?

>>154774703
Lots of blood.

>>154774694
He'll come back as Eve's trophy husband in season 5 as her reward for being a good girl.

>>154774721
I accept this.

You have to a very special brand of stupid to legitimately still believe that Lilith and Rosie are the same person. Unless Lilith has been Rosie this entire time to where neither Charlie or Lucifer recognized a change in attitude because there never was one, implying Eve was the one that birthed Charlie. This dogshit plotline never made sense.

Unless, going by the patreon info where Viv said Lilith is a fallen angel and we assume Lilith has been in Heaven this entire time? So... idk Eve was the one Lucifer fell in love with?

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Reminder this is what people want, by the way

>>154774732
I liked that one idea people talked about here of Adam being resurrected as a zombie by Baxter. Niffty has the body, pinned up the way butterfly collectors do. A lovely Mother's Day gift from all the sinners at the Hotel.

>>154774771
This shit is so fucking boring man

>>154774771
Cqraa and Trobinguy are the Eve artists most likely to go through Biblical level crashout after the reveal and I can't wait for it.

>>154774771
>>154774823
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that the angels thought it'd be a good idea to give him a Lilith twin - why stray from perfection? But also... that's just such a bad idea for his mental psyche. Like, yes here let's give you a wife identical to the one that broke your heart / was unfaithful / womyn bad.

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>>154774771
idk i like this one better. looks more like an offbrand Lilith

>>154774866
ooo i've seen this artist and her Eve stuff. too bad they're inactive. they may be more active if the theory turns out true tho. i like their Eve but i'd go for a dark red hair

>>154774840
Funny how they both believe in Roo/Eve

>>154774851
Exactly. Like it's borderline cruel to make them look so similar and especially dumb since Adam would be uncomfortable and you want this shit to work out.

>>154774898
Getting super attached to a headcanon does that.

These threads are a broken record. When can we expect news on S3 so I can know when to come back here?

>>154774884
Let's be fully honest once Eve/Lute shows up in a flashback she's probably gonna be blonde because Viv can't help herself.

>>154774976
Sadly we can only guess: this time next year is probably when we're gonna get things like teasers / a trailer. This is actual torture ( I say this as a Lute/Eve schizo )

I curse Vivziepop because this shit was for season 2 but she decided to push it back for plot or w/e, after they were greenlit for more seasons.

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>>154774976

>>154774976
Summer 2027

>>154774990
I'm coping, man, come on... (but yes, you're right. i'm not expecting anything else but blonde. but i can dream)

>>154774991
>>154774994
Yeah you're all fine boys and girls but I can only take so much.
I'll see you all in a year. Godspeed.

>>154774787
Neat

>>154775010
We'll hold the fort for you captain.

I have money on Lute being Eve. The other person still believes Roo being Eve. They acknowledge that it has been debunked, but they argue it makes the 'most narrative sense'. Ten bucks here I come

The twist is we're all Eve.

>>154775010
Good luck and safe travels.

>>154775066
We are, literally. That's our ancestor.

It'd be funny if A) None of the theories were true, or B) All of them were true (somehow)

>>154775086
That would be funny.

>>154775086
I could see something like... Rosie being Lilith (or however that goes) the Lilith in Heaven being Roo, Lute being Eve. Just for fun Alastor or Zestial would be Cain

>>154775130
As long as I get Lute being Eve confirmed, I legit don't mind anyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if there's two Liliths desu

>>154775210
Abel is Eve.

>>154775244
KeeKee is Eve

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>>154774748
I think it's just people looking for something to paint Lilith in a better light. Otherwise, she really is just a piece of shit who ditched her loving family by secretly working out a deal with her ex-husband who's slaughtering her people.

As much as I adore the idea that Abel inherited Eve's Garden-era disposition (basically Flowertunes' interpretation), the fact that Viv confirmed Abel wasn't among Adam's favorite children actually pushes me in the opposite direction. If Abel really is as gentle, meek, and soft-spoken as that interpretation suggests, then the obvious conclusion is that Adam simply didn't value those traits. The Flowertunes camp generally argues that Adam's treatment of Abel stems from the fact that he reminds him too much of Eve. I understand the appeal of that reading, but I don't believe that. Adam's apparent favoritism makes me wonder whether Eve herself was never all that meek to begin with. Personally, I imagine Eve as someone with a bit of an edge: curious to a fault, impulsive, willing to push boundaries, a little unhinged (cough Lute) The fact that Abel apparently wants to be like Lute kinda says a lot.

>>154772753
I dunno, man, given she’s on the outs with Sera and with that shit she tried to pull in the season 2 finale, she’s probably under close watch. I think I’d she makes her move in S3 and does something REALLY bad, she may very likely go rogue from heaven.

>>154775056
Nice. I don't really have any who I can make bets with sadly.

>>154775310
Yeah no I don't think she was soft-disney princess meek either. Flowertune fans will be devastated.

>>154772846
>>154773015

You see, I think what they’re going to go for is a “truth somewhere in the middle” situation with Eden. Eve might have gladly taken the apple because Lucifer told her it’d make her a better helper, which is what Eve was made to do. Lucifer may have truly thought this would benefit mankind, even if he had to ‘convince’ and sell it to Eve first.

Lilith is the wild card here, especially with how she’s shown standing further away.

Theory I’m working with right now? Lilith wanted to have a child with Lucifer. She couldn’t. So Roo made a promise to her; give the apple to Eve, and she will provide her and Lucifer one.

So that’s what she did. She did something she herself would probably later describe as selfish and stupid. Thousands of years later, Roo made good, and that’s how Charlie came to be.

And that’s it. The truth would devastate Charlie beyond words. In her eyes, all this is basically her fault.

>>154775310
Pretty much yeah. Abel being soft compared to the rest of his meat head family would be interesting. Adam and Eve/Lute being hardasses so almost all of their kids followed their example with the exception of Abel. It would also explain him not being amongst their favourites. They probably valued traits that helped them survive and thrive.

>>154775310
i've always figured that abel was a weak and sickly baby, so adam could never see abel as anything but the baby who was soft and needed protecting, with abel's death 'confirming' it. this would explain why he apparently never policed abel over his soft interests in heaven (scented candles, christmas romcoms etc) - which you think the father of misogyny would do, manosphere bros harass and police other men arguably as much as they do women - but also why he never gave abel any kind of combat training, while still putting adam in a position to be genuinely mourned by abel, who wanted one of his guitars and thought of him when he wanted to be strong.

>>154775448
>Flowertune fans will be devastated

Most of what they believe is pure headcanon. Flowertunes is a bit of a meme at the current moment.

>>154775489
as it should be

>>154775494
If it eventually dies and is reborn as GuitarRib it might become less of a meme.

>>154775508
I prefer RibRock.

>>154775537
Honestly either name works. Post reveal Flowertunes and GuitarSpear won't make that much sense as ship names so they will have to be replaced with a new name.

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My fuarking hero won.

>>154775908
He's dead.

>>154775941
Then how come I hear and see him every time I don't my meds.

>>154775941
Which makes him safer from being turned into a retard. Sometimes dead is better.

>>154775941
Not for long.

If someone put a gun to your head and told you you have to ship either Radioapple or Radiostatic what would you pick?

>>154776167
And that someone's name? Vivziepop

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>>154774330
>L.L. for short.
Nani?

>>154776167
Radioapple. Because it would nuke both Alastor's and Lucifer's reputation. Have them be fraudulent bums together. Have them never beat the shit character accusations. Make them prime targets for slander.

I'm thinking that on the small chance Lute isn't the original Eve then she's definitely made either from something taken from Adam's body or from the original Eve's. If it's the latter then I'm expecting something very dark like Heaven scrapping and 'dismantling' Eve to make the whole flock of Exorcists. Lute would be the heart.

>>154776167
radioapple because you never said it had to be in a healthy romantic way. watching lucifer's co-dependent needy nature and depression be wound around alastor's finger as he teaches lucifer to love sinners and then breaks him for it could be entertaining and/or hot.

i reject radiostatic because vox is for valentino.

>>154776167
Radioapple because it gets both of them out of the way of more interesting relationships and some of the fanworks are cringekino. Radiostatic is pretentious.

>>154776270
Looty here. This is my second schizo theory. It could explain why she potentially looks like both (assuming Eve really is a Lilith twin with different bangs) A third attempt. The only thing that drives me away from this is the show's runtime.

>>154776355
another thing that drives me away from the clone theory personally is that i don't see how 'heaven made a clone of eve' could connect to anything that would make charlie end up in a state where she sings a reverse of 'happy day in hell' by the end of the season.

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Basically no matter what Lute is a hunk of flesh and bone carved out of someone else and made into something maybe approximating a functioning person

>>154776625
speaking not as looty but as someone who would also believe in clone theory if not for the runtime and also my thing, if that wasn't clear btw.

>>154776625
Oooh, that's a good point! I didn't even consider that. I think Heaven hypothetically wiping memory of her likeness from Abel and Adam so that they wouldn't recognize her (assuming they don't know who she is) would be very fucked up and line up with Sera's "There's a lot you don't know" to Charlie, and why Sera puts up with so much of Lute's shit. I can't really picture the last thing if she were just a clone.

>>154776656
If she were 'just' a clone she deserves an arc about coming to grips with her weird origins but Eve herself is kind of a weird clone already

>>154776682
>Eve herself is kind of a weird clone already
This also dissuades me from Lute being an Eve clone theory. It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it IS very convoluted. Simple is best, in Viv's shows anyway -> Lute is Eve,,

>>154776167
I would wrestle the gun out of their hands and blow my own brains out all over them

>>154770686
Need a real old school 2010s style AMV of the Adam-Lilith-Eve love triangle set to Neon Hitch - Fuck U Betta

>>154776625
I think the reverse of ‘happy day in hell’ will be caused by her parents being more honest with her about the past. If Roo is indeed her actual (surrogate) mother, then perhaps giving Eve the apple was part of that deal.

She’d have to come to terms with the fact the reason He’ll exists is because her parents wanted a child - her.

And then when she’s at her lowest, that’s when Lute/Eve makes her move for the finale.

>>154776656
At this point, I’m leaning towards Adam must have known. Abel, on the other hand? He’s one of the oldest souls in Heaven and died a young man. If Eve went to Hell, then he has not seen her for thousands of years. It’s possible he struggles to remember her appearance.

>>154777595
This love triangle is so good because Lilith doesn't even want Adam and he's not her type but Eve is still squaring up like a rabid chihuahua.

>>154777643
i think adam had a suspicion that something was weirdly familiar about lute, but i don't think he'd talk so freely about all the bug babes he was fucking in heaven if he knew she was eve - unless he was lying and secretly fishing for any kind of reaction from her as evidence.

>>154777757
On the other hand, if we go by the idea Adam knew, it’s possible that he and Eve were reunited only 7 years ago when the extermination deal was struck. The two of them may have accepted Adam had long moved on but were still close and important to each other. Still, Eve probably still had feelings for him, but her ‘mission’ (destroying Hell) was what she was there for; romance just wasn’t in the cards. Even if she did start dating him as Lute, people would probably start asking questions. Too risky.

>>154777643
I actually don't think that's the case. The fact that Viv reportedly fought to keep Adam's smile at the end is significant. That only really supports two possibilities: either Adam remained completely oblivious until the very end, only putting the pieces together in his final moments, or he harbored some lingering suspicion all along. I lean toward the former. Abel, on the other hand, strikes me as the exact opposite. Assuming the theory is true, he has seen "Lute" at her most vulnerable, witnessed her intentions firsthand, physically stopped her, and even wants to be like her (visually confirmed in Hear My Hope). Those aren't subtle clues. I'd have a hard time believing someone with that level of familiarity wouldn't recognize what he was looking at. Adam is the one least likely to have known.

>>154777824
*addendum: this is going off the idea Eve went to Hell when she died.

Alex Brightman said he was surprised there 'was love there' meaning between Lute and Adam. Methinks Adam's memories were wiped of Eve so he didn't know the entire time: but the smile at the end probably means he recognized her right at that moment. Coincidentally, that's the moment Jessica Vosk said Lute 'let her walls down', and we see her true self.

>>154777833
Also, let’s not forget: Adam can’t keep a secret. He blurted out about Exterminations in court,

It’s possible Lute/Eve was instrumental to the deal that was struck 7 years ago, but all those involved probably knew they couldn’t tell Adam for that reason.

>>154777833
Hmm, then perhaps Abel has slowly put together who she might be. Like Adam, he’s got suspicions but might find his smoking gun in season 3 to confirm them.

>>154777938
No, I think knows. It's not a surprise to him. But it is to us.

>>154777824
Adam is desperate for romantic connection, he's a serial monogamist who can't get any of these girls to stick after 6-7 dates. There's no way he'd just tell Eve he's moved on and still keep wife shopping. He'd give it another go.

>>154777966
Another hint that he didn't know.

Adam seems like an emotional incel if such a thing existed. Like he can get laid no problem but he can't connect with anyone emotionally even though it's what he wants most of all. It makes him frustrated and angry. Lute is too repressed to allow that connection even though that's what she wants too.

>>154777966
That’s true. Perhaps that’s another reason Sera was like, “no, he can’t know.”

But the I wonder: “I never got to tell you…” odd choice of words, since it heavily implies there was a choice.

>>154778031
Maybe there was some condition or mission she had to fulfil before the powers that be would allow it.

>>154778027
>Lute is too repressed to allow that connection even though that's what she wants too.

“I think Lute’s strength is that she really has the ability to be a badass boss lady, right? & I love that, because I do empathize & understand that feeling because, you know, I like to be a badass boss lady. So she has that ability, whether or not she uses it for good is on her. Flaw wise, which I think all of us have, I know I certainly do, is just so many walls up with so many people & the inability to allow them to come down & show any vulnerability. However, I will say in the last episode of the season, there's that— The wall comes down in that scene with Adam, & it’s just sort of like… I actually got upset when I was watching it the first time like you know without a mask— You know, you see this person's face & his face, & it just sort of like something happens, where you're like… of course, that means the most to you & this is just taken away from you. I mean obviously Hazbin Hotel is so deep, for so many reasons & people see themselves in all of these characters, but it's kind of cool to think…”

Yup. Jessica Vosk says this. https://youtu.be/rQOwHIBdE_k?t=1728

>>154778061
I find it interesting that everyone's immediate thought during her conversation with the hallucination was that she was talking about her feelings, but Jessica openly talks about Lute's feelings and her love for Adam. It's never treated as this hidden thing. Also, Adam doesn't strike me as intellectually lacking - he's brash, rude and stupid at times, but he's not dumb-dumb. I feel like he'd know her feelings. She must have been talking about some other shit, right?

>>154778061
>that means the most to you & this is just taken away from you

oh. this bitch is def Eve

>>154777961
Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at too. I think he’s either figured it out or close to, the ‘when’ being the issue.

The reveal could easily be through him desperately trying to save himself getting a major beat down from her:

> “Lute, wait… d-don’tdontdont… MOMMY PLEASE!”

>>154778135
>I think he’s either figured it out or close to, the ‘when’ being the issue.
I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying he already knows. She's not hiding anything from him and vice versa.

>Songs
Peak
>Voice acting
Peak
>Character designs
Peak
>Writing
Ass.

This show frustrates me

>>154778160
This would be insanely depressing and removes the significance of "I never got to tell you [I love you/I'm Eve] so I don't think it's the case.

>>154778243
I'm talking about Abel, not Adam.
Abel knows, she's not hiding anything from him.
Adam does not know, she's hiding it from him.

>>154778264
Oh I'm a fucking retard. Sorry.

>>154778278
Nah, you good. Sorry if i worded it all fucked up / weird

One of my schizo theories, going off on Adam knowing Lute being Eve, is that the whole 'i'm fucking all these women' is just for public reputation. Him and Lute are actually fucking like bunnies behind closed doors, against Heaven's orders/them not knowing. It's just a front. Could potentially explain why Lute was so chill when Adam was talking about the chick who wanted the drummer, why we never really see him talking about fucking women ever again (unless i'm misremembering). but idk if that's too out there.

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https://x.com/Dinogaby/status/2081061843628335614?s=20

New print dropped.

Funny how.... it's both of them unmasked.... haha

>>154778160
Okay, that’s fine. It’d be a bit odd though that she’s kept this secret from Adam and pretty much all of Heaven (sans Sera) except Abel. I guess that’d be the level of which she doesn’t respect or expect anything from him, but still.

>>154778415
>I guess that’d be the level of which she doesn’t respect or expect anything from him, but still.
Clearly. He was not among Adam's favorite children. I wouldn't expect much different from Eve.

>>154778352
Is this the first time we've seen them both unmasked and facing the viewer on something official? I think it might be

>>154778352
where the fuck are his legs. does he just not have them

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>>154778352
Lute's eye color here looks like Abel's. Huh.

>>154778468
Lute's bangs look like Abel's.

>>154778457
>the exorcists came from Adam's legs
>just like how Eve came from Adam's rib

>>154778352
>the dick is the focus of the image
nice

>>154770619
Her being eve doesn't make a lick of sense and is in no way interesting. Just plain retarded for dumbfucks who need everyone to be some Glup Shitto.

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This might sound like a reach, but you guys notice just how often Lute has her head ducked down when she’s experiencing intense emotions? She does it a lot in the courtroom scene.

And look at the position Eve has when we first meet her.

>>154778832
Are you seriously calling Eve from the Bible a glup shitto?

>>154778877
Yes

>>154778832
Lmao keep telling yourself that buddy.

>>154778931
I will. HazHo is poorly written, but even Viv at her hackiest isn't that much of a hack. /co/mblr is a whole 'nother tier of hack fanfiction.

Even though the Lute Eve thing is repeated ad nauseum I think this is preferable to arguing over whether Jax is trans.

>>154778848
this shot is so intriguing to me. why was eve alone? why is she sat down? did adam not want her at first? what was she feeling that made her take the apple?

adam not loving eve until after she earned free will would be fascinating...

>>154778975
Lute is trans. She's really Cain after a sex change desperate for daddy Adam to love her, and why she hates Abel so much.

>>154778966
Sure dude. Jessica already spoiled it. But you do you. You're doing a mighty fine job!

>>154778994
That takes Daddy issues to a whole new level.

>>154778848
I've never actually noticed that before, but holy cow, that's true, she does to take up that pose several times.

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>>154779025
She really does this a lot.

>>154778352
Is that a little Exorcist smile scribbled under the autograph? Like as a written kiss and hug? That's so fucking cute

>>154779175
It would explain why Jessica said that she tries really hard and that she wants to do a good job but it comes across in a misunderstood way. Maybe, given how Adam reacted when she got all excited at the prospect of killing vaggi, I wonder if Eve was just too much for Adam. And she was bummed out.

>>154779211
>I wonder if Eve was just too much for Adam. And she was bummed out.
That's basically the inverse of how Lilith thought of Adam. He was too much for her.

>>154779252
>the male is too enthusiastic for the female, he's scaring her off
>we'll make the next one intense so she can keep up with him

>>154779271
>they made her TOO intense!! abort, abort, pull back!!!

>>154779175
and yet with adam her head is always held high...

>>154779211
i'd buy that if her smile had dropped when adam told her to chill, but it stays the same.

>>154778984
>>154778984
It's why I think heaven overcorrected when they made her in order to avoid another Lilith situation - she was extra compliant, extra eager to please and be Adam's helper. For Adam, who was probably already dealing with Lilith going, she might have been a bit much.

He might have sent her away so he could process what was going on. He then went back to find her, feeling bad about it - maybe even got her some flowers - buy by the time he found her, it was too late.

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>>154779175
Hell, there’s even a compilation on it.

>>154779409
This is what we're getting at. Once you start noticing stuff like this, you can't unnotice it.

Rib wife is best wife. I want to hug her. She probably gives the best hugs like she never wants to let you go.

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Adam: “Hell is forever whether you like it or not!”
“Considering that this show is still running, I’m inclined to believe you!”
DOHOHOHOHO

“Seems that snake is checking in to the hotel.”
“Shame he couldn’t check in to a better show!”
DOHOHOHOHO

Charlie: “It starts with sorry.”
“We paid for tickets to this show, so where’s our apology?”
DOHOHOHOHO

Lute: “They had their chance and they earned damnation.”
“I know something else you can do to earn damnation!”
“What’s that?”
“Buy a ticket to this show!”
DOHOHOHOHO

Vox: “I’m gonna make you wish that you stayed gone.”
“Shouldn’t be too hard, you’ve already made us wish the same thing!”
DOHOHOHOHO

Valentino: “No, he didn’t fucking quit! It’s worse - he moved!”
“Yeah, maybe to a better show!”
DOHOHOHOHO

Husk: “You’re a loser, baby!”
“I know who the real losers are.”
“Who’s that?”
“The audience!”
DOHOHOHOHO

“Hey, I figured out why that deer eats raw meat.”
“Really? Why?”
“Because nothing about this show is well-done!”
DOHOHOHOHO

Charlie: “So in the end, it’s the view I had of you, that showed me dreams can be worth fighting for!”
“I know what dream I’d fight for.”
“What’s that?”
“Getting a refund!”
DOHOHOHOHO

Charlie: "And tomorrow's gonna be a fucking happy day in Hell!"
"Why, is this show ending?"
DOHOHOHOHO

Angel: "Cause i know your poison, you're feeding me poison."
"Finally, something we can relate to!"
DOHOHOHOHO

"Look at that, Vaggie lost an eye!"
"At least she'll see less of this show!"
DOHOHOHOHO

"You know, I really liked Nifty's lines in that commercial."
"Really? But she didn't say anything?"
"Exactly!"
DOHOHOHOHO

"So, the deer guy's here for the entertainment?"
"Then he sure picked the wrong show to be in!"
DOHOHOHOHO

"You know, I like that Vox guy."
"Really? I thought his performance was flat."
DOHOHOHOHO

It's my first time checking on these threads in like 8 months so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse but
>Lute is Eve
I could almost buy it but what we have so far hasn't been enough to make me like, really pick up on it, I guess because there's still a lot of questions surrounding *Lute*. If you add that she's Eve on top it just adds a lot more questions. And while Lute is clearly devoted and angry, she doesn't really act like how you'd think Eve would even from a "Eve blames Lucifer and Lillith instead of Heaven" angle. Jessica has basically spoiled it so I guess it's coming, but it all just feels really weird. Maybe she's an amnesiac Eve.

>>154779845
> It's my first time checking on these threads in like 8 months

Welcome :)

And that's fine; it's always good to have a healthy dose of scepticism. Nothing is canon until it's canon, of course.

>If you add that she's Eve on top it just adds a lot more questions.

Agreed. That's why I'm hoping S3 and S4 do provide adequate answers.

>And while Lute is clearly devoted and angry, she doesn't really act like how you'd think Eve would even from a "Eve blames Lucifer and Lillith instead of Heaven" angle

Really? See, that's interests me? Cuz, well, how do you think Eve *would* act? After all, how did we expect *Adam* to act before we got introduced to him? No one seems to bat an eye at the rockstar wannabe who doesn't blink twice at slaughtering his descendants. So what is it about Lute's actions and behaviour here that seems too off?