Skincare/hygiene General #23Previous >>18580755Post your routine, holy grails and strategies to shave balls. Share experience about skincare products and your skin issuesSome of the links might be outdated, post questions if you have anyFAQ:Basic routine, skincare guide, and products tips: http://pastebin.com/5QEQgMUpHow to pop pimples, remove blackheads and whiteheads: http://pastebin.com/MufDiSfyWhy you shouldn't use ordinary soap on your face: http://pastebin.com/Ujf2x9M6How to improve your skin tone through diet: http://pastebin.com/epLqSbEQStudies on how diary and sugars create acne: http://pastebin.com/0H5gag01Dark circles around the eyes: http://pastebin.com/t796eKvrSoap, pH, irritants and synthetic detergents: http://pastebin.com/51yse1NEPost-inflammatory hyperpigmentation (PIH): http://pastebin.com/GXYPdwMfWiki:Skin care basics: http://tuxbell.com/index.php?title=Grooming#Skin-care_BasicsAcne treatment: http://tuxbell.com/index.php?title=Grooming#Acne_TreatmentSkinacea Links:Retinoids:http://www.skinacea.com/retinoids/retinoids.htmlSunscreen:http://www.skinacea.com/sunscreen/sunscreen.htmlRidding dark eye circles:http://www.skinacea.com/how-to/get-rid-of-dark-circles.html
This shit is incredible. I have had seborrheic dermatitis for my entire life and while things like ketoconazole or coal tar WILL kill the yeast that causes the dandruff, it then dries out your hair and skin every other conditioner and moisturizer refeeds the yeast and brings it back. This shit got rid of redness within a single day and makes my hair look moisturized but not greasy. It also just works as a skin moisturizer on my face better than all the many lotions I've tried. I'm sure there are other skin grade mct oils from other brands, but normal coconut oil feeds the yeast so make sure it is malassia yeast starving mct.I don't have to be embarssed getting my haircut or wearing dark colors and brushing my shoulders constantly anymore.
>>18629125Hmm. I have SD as well. I usually use Mille rosemary oil and add tea tree to the bottle, but I go through a decent amount of the little ones. I might have to try this. A word of caution tho, tea tree and rosemary oil can cause dermatitis if applied to sensitive facial skin (near eyes). At least it does for me.
>A.M.Vanicream Shampoobeplain Mung Bean pH-Balanced Cleansing FoamCeraVe Hydrating Cleanser BarTorriden DIVE-IN Low Molecule Hyaluronic Acid SerumCeraVe Ultra-Light Moisturizing Lotion SPF 30Aquaphor Lip Repair BalmDerma:B CeraMD Repair Lotion, Unscented>P.M.beplain Mung Bean pH-Balanced Cleansing FoamTazarotene Cream 0.05%Torriden Dive-IN Low Molecular Hyaluronic Acid Soothing CreamTorriden SOLID IN Ceramide Lip Essence>DentalCocoflossPhilips Sonicare DiamondClean 9900 Prestige Electric ToothbrushCrest Pro-Health Advanced Gum RestoreTheraBreath Fresh Breath MouthwashInvisalign - In Progress>ExcerciseEltaMD UV Sport Broad Spectrum SPF 50 (Face)Supergoop! PLAY Lip Balm SPF 30La Roche-Posay Anthelios UV Pro-Sport SPF 50 Sunscreen (Body)Workout (5-6 days/week)>Supplements Finasteride 1mgThorne - Basic Nutrients 2/Day - Comprehensive Daily MultivitaminNordic Naturals Ultimate OmegaOptimum Nutrition Micronized Creatine Powder 5gOptimum Nutrition Gold Standard 100% Whey Protein (1 scoop 3x day)Metamucil, Psyllium Husk Powder, Unflavored (2tsp 3x day)>Occasional ItemsMadecassoside Essential Mask Blemish RepairRound Lab 1025 Dokdo LotionS. NATURE Aqua Squalane Moisturizing CreamLa Roche Posay Cicaplast Baume B5Dr. Dan's Cortibalm Lip BalmThorne Melaton-3Life Extensions Magnesium L-Threonate
How do I prevent an acne scar? I picked off an old scab on my forehead but there's a tiny hole like a pore. I don't want one of those little hole scars. How do I fix it now?
Use ketoconazole 1% shampoo on your face if you have sebderm, use 5AR inhibitors like fin or dut if you have bad skin, your problems are entirely caused from excessive androgen derivatives aging you prematurely.
>>18629058Why do you choose such AWFUL images to kick off these lame threads with?
>>18629344Don't touch your skin.
Is there a sunscreen like this (the US stuff seems to suck) without loads of fragrance? I feel like it's rude to other people to subject them to it and it's unnecessary.
>>18629407Why are you here if you don't like the thread?
>AMCeraVe acne control cleanserThe Ordinary anti-oxidant serumTrader Joe's gel moisturizer (or) CeraVe oil control moisturizing gel creamCeraVe SPF 30 tinted mineral sunscreen>PMPanOxyl 4% benzoyl peroxide wash0.1% adapalene gel(Testing) Trader Joe's eye creamTrader Joe's gel moisturizer>PM (1x weekly)La Roche-Posay toleriane foaming cleanserThe Ordinary 30% AHA 2% BHA peelTrader Joe's gel moisturizer>HairFinasteride 0.5mgOral minoxidil 2.5mgNizoral mixed with Shea Moisture shampooShea Moisture conditioner>SupplementsMultivitaminFish oil (2-5g omega-3)D3 5000mcgCreatine 5g(Joints)MSM 3gGlucosamineChondroitin(Gut health)Black seed oil 5ml 2x/dayNAC 600mg 2x/dayZinc carnosineL-glutaminePHGGProbioticsProbably switching back to nopoo soon. I have a red light panel but I get so bored using it. What do you guys do?>>18629182Whey doesn't make you break out at all?>>18629371Fin has reduced my oil production maybe 30% after 6 weeks
>>18629412this one is similar, but has a matte finish. it irritated my skin, but it works well for a lot of others. if it didn't irritate me, it would be my primary. ANESSA Perfect UV Sunscreen Mild Milk N SPF50+ PA++++ 60mlhttps://a.co/d/3cEc2of>>18629542>Whey doesn't make you break out at all?no, but too much dairy will. i mix with water.>Oral minoxidil 2.5mghow has this worked out for you? have you had extra body hair growth? i'd like to try it out but i have a relatively low amount of body hair and would like to keep it that way.>nopooi've read this is bad. what make you want to go nopoo?>>18629371there's no magic bullet. what worked for you may not work for others.
>>18629344You need to use hydrocolloid patch or those cica bandages depends on whats your acne condition, but not after the hole is formed.
>>18629344One of the best ways to handle any sort of cut or wound to minimize scarring is to wash it with just normal gentle soap, tamp dry, then apply a layer of petroleum jelly and cover with a bandage. Wounds that are covered with Petroleum jelly heal faster and more cleanly.
>>18629125Kelual DS old version with zinc pyrithione used to be so effective for serborheic dermatitis. But they changed the formula.
>>18629418Lol, criticism is not allowed now.
>>18629125I'll have to try this>>18629614Oral minoxidil will definitely give you a systemic effect. Vellus hairs will thicken but they're not guaranteed to go terminal. The effect peaks at 9 months. You'll also get thicker eyebrows and eyelashes. I mainly use it because I have cats.>NopooAs long as your scalp/gut microbiome is in good shape it's totally fine. Detergent shampoo has only been around for 90 years. The point is really to clean using alternative methods that don't strip your hair's natural oils. Personally I get a better cosmetic effect from my hair's natural oil production than I can from any conditioners/curl creams. Most people overproduce oil because of constant shampooing and it takes a couple weeks to adjust. YMMV depending on hair type
>>18629418I don't like the IMAGES you choose. Can't you fucking read?
Doctor prescribed me mupirocin...
acne scars ruined my lifei'll never be able to wear short hair ever again
>>18630439Microneedle it dude
when did straight people discover skincare
>>18630737When cameras became ubiquitous and everyone started seeing photos of themselves on screens
>>18630439Blame your parents.
Does supplemental dietary collagen and vitamin c help with skin or is it a waste of money?
>>18630439tret cream, microneedling>>18631311it does help, though it is not high on the priority listI supplement gelatin mainly for joints but I'll take the skin improvementvit C I mainly do for my immune system and gelatin abosorption (so that it can go where it needs and actually work) and the the increased collagen synthesis is a nother bonus
>>18631311Surely, sleeping early, exercise, better diet, etc. are more important.
any comparable creams with the same or similar scent?
What's the best product one can put on after shaving? I always get small, flat red bumps that sort of "itch" and dryness the day after shaving. And I'm usually dry after shaving, despite moisturizing religiously. I don't use actives until like 35 hours has passed and I don't use actives the day before shaving either. I've found that using azelaic, tret or Differin, salicylic acid dries me out more after shaving. Azelaic is probably the best one out of all of those but it still dries me out after shaving, but that's maybe because its a 20% strength.
What is a good moisturizer that's available in the EU? I currently use LRP Cicaplast Baume B5+ in the evening, but want something lighter for daytime.
>>18631715Bioderma Atoderm Crème Ultra and La Roche Posay toleriane sensitive. the latter is a GREAT moisturizer but very expensive. The bioderma isn't as good, but it must be close to 5 times cheaper.
>>18631620That doesn't answer his question.
>>18631716It's not very expensive lol. Especially in EU.
>>18631856kys
>>18631714I use alum block and Nivea gentle aftershave cream. Alum is mainly good for cuts. Nivea reduces irritation and it's super hydrating.
>>18632231Yeah, I keep alum around me when I shave but I rarely cut myself. I don't use a specific aftershave, it's just regular moisturizer. I've tried before with shaving specific products but it doesn't seem to mitigate pimples. They're probably razor bumps, honestly. I'm wary of using 'acids' due to me stupidly using salicylic acid as an aftershave for a month or so back in 2024... my skin never really recovered. I think the best option is really going to a Braun electric shaver or something.
>>1863206514 euro for 40 ml is pretty expensive in my opinion. you get 200 ml for 14 if you compare it with the bioderma. 40ml lasts me a decent while though because its really occlusive and rich, even the sensitive version. i'd say that 40ml lasts about 5-6 weeks using it twice a day
>>18632368So, 14 Eur per 5-6 weeks. If that's expensive for you, I don't know what to say. LRP is no luxury stuff. It's very standard pharmacy brand.
>AMnothing>PMminoxidil>dentalarm and hammer tooth pastegum mouth wash>exercisemanual labor at work>supplementsL theanine 400mg for sleepmagnesium glycinate 400mg for sleep>occasional itemszyns
thoughts on body oil? seems like a good way to get some hydration in at night, but i've never tried it.
>>18632462needs Sunscreen
>>18632771i'm brown
>>18632776everyone needs sunscreen, it's not just for avoiding sunburn it prevents visible signs of aging like wrinkles and (especially for more melanated folks) dark spots. Wear sunscreen everyday, at least SPF 30, reapply every 2 hours if you are outside.
My entire face is covered in clogged pores and blackheads, but every chemical exfoliant I've tried has been too harsh for me, even when using slightly less often than instructed on the bottle.I've tried salicylic acid, glycolic acid, and a retinoid. my face has always been like this and I'm losing hope :( What should I do?
>>18633519I had the same problem, until I started using Suisai Kanebo Beauty Clear Black Face Wash Powder. It's an enzyme cleanser and it's very drying, but it AWESOME for removing blackheads.
>>18633519talk to derm to see if it warrants isotretinoin some people even take low doses long term to help
>dollar tree cleanser>dollar tree serum>dollar tree moisturizerAm I doing it right bros?
>>18633559not great, but probably better than doing nothing. https://incidecoder.com/products/xtracare-hydro-plus-hydrating-cleansing-gel
>>18629058I'm really insecure about by darker dick/asscrack/nipples when the rest of my skin is quite pale. Should I buy a bleaching product and do it? Health risks? The product I'm eyeing does say it's safe for the groin
These threads need to come with close ups of face skin to see what actual results are
can I ask questions about shaving and beards here?
>>18634533Sure
>>18634721I usually use clippers to shave and the shortest they go is medium stubble. I want to get an electric shaver and try a more clean shaven look+I have stubborn neck hair that is hard to remove. I wonder if I can achieve a clean shaven look, or at least something close to it with an electric shaver. I don't want to use a razor
>>18629058>get new glasses>instantly notice every single flaw on my skin I couldn't with my old prescriptionTh-thanks...
>>18629058I have transcended shaving. I have a beard (neat and no neckbeard) but since I was a kid I've always gotten lots of red blotches when I shave my neck, no matter what combo of razor/lubricant/moisturizer/balm/etc. I've only been able to shave 2, maybe 3 times per week because of this, even then my neck gets bad. However I have realised that I can use my hair clipper without the guard on and shave my neck hair down to 0.5mm/0.019" with *zero* irritation. This is only the length of 1-2 days growth and no ugly red blotches! I've only been doing this for a week and already all the blotches on my neck have completely cleared up. I look a bit better in the mirror now. This is the new normal now. I'd rather permanently look like I shaved yesterday than look like I glued a small pizza to my neck.
>AMWaterCeraVe PM moisturizer Neutragena SPF 70>PMCeraVe cleanserCeraVe PM moisturzierBenzoyl peroxide as needed Thoughts on this, am I all set?
>>18634903Just use a razor.
Do I need sunscreen under this weather?
After extensive research, I've concluded that except forcleansermoisturizersunscreentretinoineverything else is unnecessary, from an anti-aging (pre-emptive) perspective. What do the anons here think?
>>18630439>ever againthey will probably routinely spray-3D print people own skin from stem cells in like 10-15 years
For some reason the area around my mouth (nose and below) is always red. Did I fuck up on applying sunscreen after retinoids and it got a bad tan? It's been like this for months, what do?
Any advice for eyelid eczema? Started around half a year ago, not sure what triggered it. Went to a dermatologist, but they just did an allergy prick test (which only tested positive for mold) and prescribed hydrocortisone cream, which does help, but as soon as i stop using it the eczema flares up again about a day later. Any moisturizer i’ve tried so far (my regular Cetaphil one as well as anti-allergic eyelid ones) burn, cause my eyelids to swell, and become even more red.
>>18636303Vaseline or find thicker cream your skin can stand , add on often as it dries up. I'd say just use vaseline for now, you want simple but moisture retaining cover so your skin can fix on its own without being aggravated by whatever fancy chemicals or fragrance in other products. Take even more care for youself and your house/room hygiene at that too.
How to TRULY get rid of dark circles? I'm losing my fucking mind, I look like a panda
>>18636110sounds like a dermatitis. I would stop using all products on that area, other than a gentle facial cleanser, a sunscreen you know doesn't bother you, and maybe moisturizer at night that you also know doesn't bother you until it goes away. Then once it goes away add in your additional products 1 by 1 waiting at least 3 or 4 days before adding a new one and see if it comes back.
Will azelaic acid bleach my skin? I have darker nipples/cock/armpits and it makes me self conscious
>>18635939yeah, this will give you about 90-95% of your gains unless you include things like laser treatments.that's assuming you have clear skin. acne is a whole other beast.
>>18636711see a dermatologist. there are surgeries and laser treatments that can be done.
>>18633708What product? Not claiming I know anything about doing this, but I would assume that it follows similar skin sensitivity trends. So your what you listed may respond more harshly as those skin areas tend to be more sensitive if im not mistaken
>>18637465>>18637468tell me more about laser treatmentsAre they effective for dark circles? What about wrinkles? Any new tech that people still hasn't catched up to?
>>18635412Check the UV index but generally no.
>>18635939Niacinamide and Vit C also help but that's kinda it without injections and plastic surgery.
>>18637468If ur healthy then:>Stare less at a monitor>Tret can thicken the dermis around the area>Sleep more>Get fat transfer as last resortThats kinda it.
>get full AM PM reoutine with benzoyl peroxide and adapalene>still have pimples somewhat frequently>skin itself where there aren't any blemishes looks way better thoughUh, thanks I guess?
friendly reminder to take your vitamin c, collagen peptides and hyaluronic acid supplements in addition to your skin care actives if you want to see full benefits
Almost 30 years old, tried several dermatologist-prescribed medications throughout the years, drink only water, eat limited dairy/sugar, wash my face, clean my bedsheets, etc. and still have inexplicable breakouts. It's over
Where do anons import Japanese skincare products from? Amazon japan would be easiest but I'm worried about fakes.
>>18638300>>18637899checked, sounds hormonal
Gonna start nightshift soon I dont want to grow old and ugly, what do I need? I have dry skin
>>18639085>what do I need?You need to not do the night shift.
>>18638362I don't trust amazon for skincare, I usually get mine from YesStyle.
Anyone have experience getting moles removed? I have a lot on both my face and body, both some big raised ones and ones on the surface of the skin.They’re a big source of insecurity but I’m also scared to get them cut off and having scars, blotches, other side effects
>>18639367I don't have much choice.
>>18639085Think positively, no sun damage.
>>18639367>>18639836cmon my life is shitty enough for me to be in a position to work nights can I get some fucking skincare advice in the skincare thread instead of people acting smug? This place is turning into reddit I stg
24F, horrific cystic acne that is treatment resistant and making me want to rope. I have been on accutane 2x and i have dry eye disease now (yay). Taking 100mg spironolactone and its not doing shit for the acne anymore.I want to try Winlevi but insurance doesn’t cover and costs $600 without. Anywhere to get it cheaper? I dont care if its sketch
>>18629058>use CereVe AM moisturizer/sunscreen for months>no apparent problem with it>look down at my shirt and see random white dust on it>"Why do I keep getting this? There's too much for it to be dandruff and I haven't eaten today">finally realize it's the sunscreen>the West has fallenCan someone recommend a good morning moisturizer with SPF?
Getting blind pimples lately so need to up my face cleaning routine. Is a good facial wash used before or after shower? Reccomend good facial wash. Do I need any other products? Would like to keep it simple.
So, ever since I started using products for my face my wrinkles and fine lines have become much more pronounced. Why is this?
>>18639085>>18639085Bump, I need this job and don't want to fuck my youth up can anyone help please?
>>18641066It's really no different than a day job guy. Just get black out curtains and keep doing what you've been doing.
>>18629058How come no one ever talks about skin care for the rest of your body? What are the essentials for a full body routine?
>>18641066if you have nothing to worry about skin wise and just want to maintain, The Basic Routine is the way to go (cleanser, moisturizer, sunscreen, retinoid). the usual first timers go for cerave but its hard to recommend anything since all of us are from different parts of the world. then you have different offerings between countries from the same company and then you can have the same product in two regions but with different or cucked formulationif you never did skincare and want to give it a go start with cleanser and sunscreen and see if you can be consistent>>18640900post routine, how long you did it for and perhaps a little more details?>>18640332for acne a good start is The Basic Routine (see above response to other anon) and after 2 months you reassess your situation and decide on spot treatment etc. it is also worth taking a look at your lifestyle, working environment and many other small things like not using hot showers, not touching face and at least wiping your face after sweating. not using any comedogenic oils... not to mention eating slop and checking out how is dairy impacting your skin>>18640093maybe use additional moisturizer under it. pretty sure you can find many recs for sunscreens in the past threads. personally i really liked Some By Mi Truecica Aqua Calming Suncream>>18639880how many derms have you seen? second or third opinion is quite common but not sure what does it look like in terms of prices per visit. some less known prescription creams are available at indian online pharmacies and shipped worldwide but not to every country>>18638362they are offered by local sellers in online drugstores marketplaces
>>18637760nta but there are many laser treatment types and its worth to ask professional who can look at you and recommend something for your specific case>>18637440nomaybe search what porn stars do with that>>18636303for me it went away after a few months. turns out it was the way i was spreading creams on my face. i was touching my eye area with end of my nails... very softly and a little too often i guess. my scalp also gets fucked if i use nails when spreading shampoo or conditioner>>18635265post your skin issues. i would switch BP to mornings and add a retinoid in the afternoon>>18635260thats pretty much my experience as well and ended up with electric trimmer instead. sometimes i will shave clean with razor but that happens every 2 months or so and i get irritation from ingrown hairs (unless i use azelaic acid wisely)>>18633519my derm prescribed me epiduo, double cleansing and vitamin pp + zinc supplements for blackheads on my nose
>>18641248>post routine, how long you did it for and perhaps a little more details?Been doing this for 6 months. In the shower I do CeraVe Hydrating Foaming Oil Cleanser after I get out I use Pyunkang Yul PKY Essence Toner then after that dries I use COSRX Snail Mucin Repairing Serum. I'll use an under eye retinoid 3x a week. Then 2x a week I use Suisai Kanebo Beauty Clear Black Face Wash Powder usually in the evening and then follow that up with CeraVe PM Facial Moisturizing Lotion
>>18641244im pretty much reactive to skin issues on my body and dont really have routine but i started using shower gels that have milder surfactantsalso my two main moisturizers (one is oil free and the other is much heavier) are body moisturizers anyway so i use it on my hands when neededsometimes i put salicylic acid shampoo (2%) on my body for a few minutes when showering. when i finish i apply my oil free moisturizer on my whole body while im still dampi also started doing heel maintenance some time ago which is urea cream (50%) and salt baths whenever i feel like>>18632493if you are really dry then sure. use moisturizer first though>>18631715i highly recommend going to local drugstores and finding some cool cheap stuff. german drugstores are pretty awesome. you can also check if there are facebook groups skincare recs from these in your areaor you can just default to cerave body lotion. i use it on face and its awesome. if you want niacinamide in there too then get cerave pm instead>>18631714>What's the best product one can put on after shaving? aloe vera or moisturizer (or both). the next day maybe mix moisturizer with azelaic acid and put it on if you have ingrown hairs after shaving. i read that mixing azelaic acid like that does not necessarily work well for acne but it worked for my ingrown hairs>>18631311if you are deficient, yesif not, not so much>>18630410tried it and its pretty awesome spot treatment with no side effects. you can also apply it over retinoid (or epiduo at least)
>>18641263is it perhaps cold where you are? being outside in cold winters add 10 years to my face and my chud lines are much more visiblei dont see any heavier moisturizer in your routine so maybe give it a go (lipikar baume ap+m for example) or use petroleum jelly/vaseline at the end of your routine or before going out or somethingyou can also do a full reset, stop everything for 2 weeks and see if that makes things better for you
>>18641274Alright I'll give it a shot thanks.
>>18635265>PM moisturizer in the AMThis causes mustard gas
>>18635265Honestly that is pretty solid. The most important thing for long-term skin health is using sunscreen everyday. Next is probably washing your face everyday and using a moisturizer at night. Almost all sunscreens act as a moisturizer as well. The only other thing that would also probably help a fair bit in the long run is adding a retinoid at night. There are over the counter ones, but for me personally I started to really notice improvements when I switched from over the counter retinol to Prescription Tretinoin. If you can get Tretinoin or Tazarotene I feel like it is really worth it over the Over the Counter ones. But other than that your routine looks pretty good.
>>18641267>mupirocin>its pretty awesome spot treatmentSeems to have helped overall actually too. I'm pretty sure I had some kind of persistent skin infection that kept reappearing in different places, and after hitting it with the antibiotic enough it seems to be dying down, finally. Still a couple spots on my face, back of my neck, and my back, but not nearly as bad as it was.
>shower in the morning>if I apply sunscreen in the morning, I'll have to somehow wash it off at nightIs there a way around this dilemma? I don't want to shower twice or move my showers to the evening.
>>18641936it's called washing your face in evening with a cleanser. showering in the evening makes more sense anyway though since you're removing the grime and dirt from the day and then getting into bed clean.
>>18641946I do wash my face in the evening. It's the body sunscreen that's the problem.
i wash my face multiple times a day and use seborrheic dermatitis cream every day and it's only getting worse, the fuck do i do?
How should I do with BHA 2% Toner and a night retinol creme?Right now my routine isMorningCerave Foaming CleanserNivea Luminous anti age 2in1 spf 30 moisturizerEveningCerave foaming cleanserNivea Luminous anti age 2in1 serumWant to change the night routine to a retinol, but the pastebin also rdcommends a toner, how do I switch this up.The Nivea anti age kinda works but is peobably alot of marketing, I impulse bought that 2 weeks ago when I decided to start a skin care routine, I'm a 36 year old man and decided I needed to do something for my fat blemushed face.
>>18629412Is your pic rel (US version) worth it as a morning moisturizer/sunscreen? I've been looking into it.
>>18642033fair enough. I normally just cover up unless it's a beach holiday. why do you not want to shower in the evening?
>>18642061>i wash my face multiple times a day>seborrheic dermatitis>the fuck do i do?>i wash my face multiple times a dayanon..>>18642188use bha in the morning after cleansing use retinol in pm 15-20 minutes after cleansing so that your face is dry. afterwards wait another 15-20 minutes before next step>Nivea Luminous anti age 2in1 serummaybe im blind but i dont see anything anti aging in the ingredients list of this product. get normal moisturizer instead and use it 20 minutes after retinolalso most derms recommend spf50 when using retinoids>>18641936guess sleeping with sunscreen it is
>>18642543Thanks, I looked into it, aka found some reddit posts who said, Retinol onve a week, and bha one a week until used to it.Pic related is the nivea 2in1 stuff, spf30 so I use it in the morning.
>>18641263Do you drink enough water? Maybe you're slightly dehydrated.
>>18629058Is a vitamin C body lotion going to actually do anything, or is the vitamin C too impotent?
>>18642677Those body lotions usually don't have enough vit C to really make a big difference.I'd go for those that have ingredients like niacinamide, ceramides and/or squalane.
>>18642061Xylitol rinse. Also finding an anti-dandruff shampoo or antifungal that work. You need to try a lot. One by one. Zinc pyrithone, olamines, etc. And even if you find one, it may stop working one day. Those minimalist fungal safe products and MCT oil may help too.
New batch, should last 1 year plus :^)
>>18642677If you want to use Vitamin C, which can actually help both as an anti-oxidant and as boosting collagen production, you need to look for a Vitamin C serum that has L-Ascorbic Acid (other forms of Vitamin C do not have the same effect), Ferulic Acid, and Tocopherol (this is Vitamin E.) This is the basic formula of Skinceuticals C E Ferulic serum which has the most studies proving it's efficacy. The skinceuticals C E Ferulic is very expensive though at like $150 a bottle. There are dupes though. I personally use Maelove Glowmaker which is also pricey imo at about $40 a bottle, but much more affordable than skinceuticals. There are probably others.
anyone tried cerave hand cream?
>>18642710What about retinol body lotions?
>>18643058based, I need to stock up too
>>18643290I think Gold Bond makes a good one that has decent retinol percentage.
>be me>live in Japan>stayed in a standard business hotel last week while visiting Nara to watch them burn the mountain>packed in a rush and forgot my razor at home>had to use a hotel amenity double bladed disposable razor to shave my face and head the next morningholy fucking shit. i haven't used a disposable razor in over a decade and this was surprisingly one of the CLOSEST shaves I've had in recent memory. took longer than my setup at home but ended up with zero nicks, almost BBS shave all over and I didn't even use shaving cream, just some conditioner. they either improved the technology massively over the past few years or I really need to step my game up at home.
>>18643058
>>18629058Hello! I'm 18 and I've had acne my whole life, it comes and gos and I had a really gay period when I was a teenager where I was like "I don't even care about my acne, I'm not shallow" when it was at it's worst. It's currently in a bad place and I've started a new routine and I wanted to know if I was fucking myself over or not since I want to really improve my skin. AM: CeraVe Blemish Control Cleanser (I'm an ausfag, it's called Acne Control Cleanser in the states and the ingredients are identical), a facial moisturiser, and then sunscreenPM: The same cleanser, then CeraVe blemish control gel, a facial moisturizer and then I go to bed.
>>18643381i don't know, is it ok to shave multiple days in a row? sometimes a shave that's too close can result in exfoliation that may be nice if you need it and you're not doing it day after day.
I stopped all skincare other than a basic moisturiser and my skin has never looked better. But I know my skin is getting fucked long term.My routine was pretty basic. The only thing I can think of was the niacinamide in the moisturiser or the retinol (low %).
Got a question about retinol and tretinoin.My skin is strong, I don't get much reactions from these separatly, I do apply them on separate days. You think I can take this up to a higher level and apply retinol and tretinoin daily if my skin can take that?The only other stuff I use is niacinamide in the morning. How can I add AHA/BHA to that?
>>18644676Both are retinoids, tret is the more potent form. There's no reason to use retinol in this case, it does nothing extra.>The only other stuff I use is niacinamide in the morning.You need sunscreen if ur gonna use retinoids to avoid sun damage. As well as a cleanser and moisturizer.>How can I add AHA/BHA to that?BHA is mainly for acne and blackheads, you can use a cleanser with salicylic acid.As for AHA, you shouldn't use it on the same day you use retinoids.
>>18644921Well do you have a sunscreen to recommend that's light? I despise most of the ones I used cause I feel like I coated my face with butter or yoghurt.
>>18629058Are Japanese sunscreens a meme, or are they worth it?
want to hop on azelaic acid, couple Q's1.) is 10% a good starting point?2.) what's the most accessible brand I can get my hands on as a Canadian?
Any baldbros have suggestions for redness? I don't know why but after I shave my skin gets super red in certain areas. On that note, do I need special scalp products or should I just cleanse and moisturize it like my face?
traveling to japan next week, any products I should pick up?
>>18642061>seborroic dermatitisthis is the fucker's dermatitis.once upon a time i said fuck off to every shitty overpriced product my dermatologist gave me (none would work). i remembered i had aloe plants around so i skinned the inside of the leaf and mixed the pulp with honey to avoid spoiling (50/50 mix). i started putting this shit every day on my face morning and night and washing it after 30 mins or so and it fixed everything. the aloe does something to the fungal matter or something, idk. seriously this has been so effective it should be on the OP post at least to make people try it. i have to put it regularly though or it will come back after a week or so.if you end up doing this store it in a fridge, for me 500g lasts about a month or two. also, shaving helps and DO NOT scratch or touch NEVER
I feel trying to find anything for my skin type (sensitive oily skin) is impossible cuz idfk what im doing, does anyone have some good product recommendations
Is there any wait to get that skiny skin look without using lotions that are greasy or sticky? it icks me out.
>>18629058Is there a good all-in-one website for ordering skincare products, since Amazon somehow hasn't fixed their problems in all these years?
>>18646232Shiseido Anessa is arguably the best mass-market sunscreen. In practice and in tests. Be careful of fakes. So many fakes.
What's this bump on my nose? I've had it for years, I remember thinking I had a pimple that I bursted and then scarred into this, but now I'm not sure anymore. If I try to 'burst' this a clearless bit of liquid runs out and it grows back into this again in a few days.Is it a mole/wart? Anything I can put in it?
>>18647706>20$/60mlI hate sunscreens
>>18648026Yeah, I usually just buy pic related, it's like 8 euros / 175 ml.
>>18648026Based on public tests, European sunscreens are usually best. Asian is mixed-bag, Anessa is an exception. Australian are made by crooks and convicts descendants, they didn't pass independent tests.
>>18647519Avene.
>>18644202See a derm. If you can't afford it, blame your parents. Also get a part-time.
>>18644202See if you can get a prescription for Tretinoin or Tazarotene. These are both common medications used to treat acne. They also broad skin health and appearance benefits with long-term use.
>>18643381Honestly, yes. Those slalom 2 gillettes are the best fucking razors ever but they're junk after 1 shave for me. If I only do 1 pass with the grain, it's much closer than a safety with feathers or astra blades. I still get a closer shave with a with grain, across grain and against grain shave with a DE but for the last 15 months de shaves have irritated my skin, so I went back to disposables and no more problems.
What's a cheap microneedling pen?It just needs to get the job done
>>18648811No such thing. Imagine going cheap for stuff that stabs your face many many times.
How do I discontinue off adapalene? Do I just quit abruptly and moisturize?
just switched to a new moisturizer a couple days ago as it was recommended to me to be better for oily skin and now im breaking out :( should i keep trying it or just give it up? picrel is the new moisturizer
my skin is aging like milk and i suspect its due to high sugar intake and sugar glycation. might be prediabetic aswell but cant bloodwork done right now. trying to quit sugar till june and see if it gets better. any tips? prayers and spells are also appreciated.
>>18649668>he fell for torrriden's aggresive marketing
>>18629058What's the best sunscreen you can buy in the U.S.? I've been spinning my wheels for days trying to pick one.
warning nightmare pic time. so i have genetic puffy eyebags i think and so happen to have dark circles too. these are recent pics i took in shitty indoor lighting at night. what can i do? is a lower blepharoplasty my only option? my skintone is a medium light with cool undertones i've been told. i'm not sure where to start with makeup like orange/peach/or same color concealer or whatever i need to do.any experienced anons with caffeinated eye creams or serums? any advice thx xoxoearly 30s/f
>>18629058Can anyone rec a cheaper alternative to CeraVe's skin renewing night cream?
>>18650469I saw a video a few weeks ago of a woman doing a make up tutorial, she started with something called underpainting. Basically before you put any foundation on you can apply some colored makeup to parts of your face to have different effects. She cooler bluish colors along her jaw line to make it appear more in the background to help her face appear more narrow, and she applied orange to her chin area to make it appear more forward. One thing she did, she also had eyebags, was apply a bit of makeup of the opposite color of her eyebags on to lessen their appearance. Her eyebags were purplish so she applied a greenish hue to them. This was all done before she applied any foundation. I'm a guy so I don't wear any makeup so I can't speak from firsthand experience, but her transformation was honestly impressive. Here is the video if you are curious.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDOHPozBLx0I use the ordinary caffeine serum under my eyes but haven't really noticed a huge change from that.
>>18650547Other cerave products? Vanicream? Cetaphil?
Is it safe to put 20% azelaic acid on my foreskin to lessen the hyperpigmented spots?
is pulling your nose hair dangerous? my nose hurts when I press it from the outside ever since I started pulling it, but its hard for me to tell whether this is due to pulling, some other bruising, or more cold related.
>>18642601Been using this for 2 weeks now, skin looks a bit younger, less wrinkles and laugh lines are less visible.>>18642543I applied retinol for the first time today, skin feels fine so far, did it after my evening cleanse. Gonna use it 3 times a week for now. Then BHA one day after using retinol to keep them 24h apart.Mornings I continue with cleansing and anti age spf30 moisteriser, maybe spf 50 if I feel I need it.Also bought some peptide stuff to reach free shipping, might be a scam but planning to use it now and then during the day.
skg, i have some really bad hyperpigmentations from post acne marks and ingrown hair “scars”. These are located on my legs mostly on my thighs, front and back, and on my butt. I have already messed up as these PIH have been there for about 2 years now, and it’s kinda has gotten worse, ive realized and accepted the severity and that a full reversal is not possible without co2 lasers so i am just trying to manage it and if possible lighten any of the PIH. I was wondering if the “new” amazon prescription program where i can virtually meet with a derm is even worth to get like a 0.05% tret and 20% azelaic acid, or should i just purchase those products and hydroquinone from these online “pharmacies” since that amazon program, i don’t think, would even prescribe hydroquinone and i wouldn’t have to show and explain b/c it is embarrassing. I was also thinking of getting a TCA peel as well, but i know i can’t do that peel and the tret together. any advice is welcomed.
>>18642677maybe it will act as antioxidant at most, depends on formula and concentration but i would not expect much from body lotion>>18643068i used geek&gorgeous vit c every summer for the past 2 years which has similar skinceuticals formula. but this year am gonna try a 10% 3-o-ethyl ascorbic acid serum>>18643290i think you can find video with recs somewhere on the Doctorly yt channel where they discuss body routines>>18644202its okay but it would be best to get your first retinol as well and i think it covers The Basic Routine. cerave resurfacing retinol serum, olay or neutrogena are decent for starters. use it up and then reassess situation and see if it helped, if you need additional spot treatment or if you need a derm visit for stronger retinoid>>18645843nta but look for sunscreen reviews on youtube and see which ones dont look shiny after application. personally i find cerave am good, but others dont. so i guess it comes down to trial and errori think i liked the BoJ rice probiotic one but i needed moisturizer under it. and the isntree hyaluronic acid watery sun gel was also dry to the point it was drying my skin so maybe you will like italso i would use up retinol and keep with tret as other anon mentioned
>>18646353>1.) is 10% a good starting point?sure>2.) what's the most accessible brand I can get my hands on as a Canadian?sorry im eurofag>>18647209interesting, glad it helped>>18647519where do you live? heard vanicream is good but its not available where i live>>18647554i usually have shiny face after 15 minute 30% glycolic acid exfoliating peelmaybe this will help more https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHhTXLPdSFE>>18647952idk consider going to dermam i the only one annoyed by this retarded error? Error: Our system thinks your post is spam. Please reformat and try again.this is literally what you get when answering 6 posts instead of 5. no wonder boards here are almost dead. who the fuck wants to solve 3 most retarded captchas in a row and then do them again because i answered too many posts. fuck devs
>>18649792eat more protein andd fiber, less carbs. do a 24 hour fast and go from there>>18650469>is a lower blepharoplasty my only option?consider going to a professional. caffeine serums are mostly meme unless cold spoon works for you in the morning>>18650547lrp lipikar baume ap+m>>18650868significant dryness risk>>18650874i think nose trimmers are quite popular
>>18650894>I applied retinol for the first time todaygood. people usually prioritize retinoids so do them as often as your skin allows. it is often recommend to use retinoids for first timers every few days first as it might be pretty drastic for some people with sensitive skin>peptide stuffmost of them dont do much so dont expect magic but yeah some of them work in terms of hydration>>18650928is my understanding correct you want to jump from zero to full retard?>located on my legs>0.05% tret and 20% azelaic acid>hydroquinone maybe get a 10%-20% urea lotion first. and 10% azelaic cream for these spots if you really want. use them daily for a month and reassess your situation and maybe go to actual derm. and do not get benzoyl peroxide instead of azelaic acid. it will bleach your clothes.>embarrassingthey see shit thats 100x worse whenever they get patients who stuck a needle in their dick hole or put a lightbulb up their assim done with posting for now with these retarded spam thresholds. ill browse and maybe bump the thread but i cant do the retarded monkey puzzles every time. unless someone can tell me which country does not get them
>>18651216I will admit asking about hydroquinone starting out is retarded, but I have been trying to treat it with OTC stuff, though admittedly not strictly consistent and these PIH are years old as well. The 20% azelaic acid is the proven % for PIH and is roughly the same $ as OTC 10% and I thought since its not on my face, the skin is thicker so 0.05% tret would be fine to start out with 1-2x a week. I use the 10% azelaic acid either from the ordinary or the dupe from Walgreens, I was using the trash retinol from the ordinary, but have moved to the one from TJ since its a higher conc, and for moisturizer I rotate use between the 10% lipikar, amlactin and or just pure Squalane if i use Glycolic acid.>patients who stuck a needle in their dick holeI dont think my derm or the virtual amazon derm is seeing those types of patients, but i get your point. Thanks
>>18650548oh that's wild i'm actually a sketch artist/painter but haven't consistently made art in over a year due to the sads/fatigue etc. loved the video you sent me, i'm a self trained artist and never thought to go to art school. maybe i should just for the chance of connecting/networking. wish the video girl wasn't as pale but i may try and look up someone with this technique closer to my skintone. ty for the link :> <3 how long have you been using the caffeine serum? how are your eyes compared to my nightmare ones? >>18651193>consider going to a professionaldef, too bad i'm tragically a poorfag. i'm not really in a mental/physical position to work and haven't for years due to unfortunate events. i'm actually really good at portraiture realism and can probably make tons of cash if i got out of my depression fog and really marketed myself. >.< or even seep into the degeneracy of furry art commisions, anime/toony stuff for the bucks to shell out for a lower bleph, i just idk wheni would be able to afford it.>mostly meme unless cold spoon worksi've never actually tried the cold spon method, i should try that is it used with the caffeine serum/cream as a before regimen? i've also heard avbout people using cold used green tea bags in the area but have yet to try it. idk, i also tend to sleep either on my back or on my side and i feel so like bloated/clammy something in the eye bag area, maybe i should look into lymph drainage??
>>18651172>but this year am gonna try a 10% 3-o-ethyl ascorbic acid serummy understanding from the various derm videos I've watched is that all forms of Vitamin C provide the anti-oxidant protection, which is honestly the main benefit of Vitamin C. But the L-Ascorbic acid form, which is the 'pure' vitamin C may also increase collagen production since it is a cofactor in Collagen synthesis.
>>18629058Why doesn't azelaic acid get more love?
>>18651413I'm not sure how much of an effect the Caffeine serum has had but I have seen improvement after using it consistently mainly in reducing the puffiness under the eyes. One thing that isn't frequently mentioned here but I think helps skin health and overall health is daily supplementing with Glycine and NAC (N Acetyl Cysteine). These are amino acids or amino acid derivatives that combine in the body to form something called Glutathione which is a broad antioxidant used throughout the body but also the skin. Glutathione is linked to lighter, brighter skin, as well as increased collagen and elastin levels.
How am I supposed to figure out what foods are the cause of acne? Do I eat the foods that I regularly eat and just wait? How long am I waiting for? Do I have to replicate to figure that the one food is actually the one that is causing it?
I want to add Retinol to my skincare which is already super basic which is just cleanser and moisturizer and decided I want something more serious to improve my face, I'm limited to a few items locally and unable to order online for reasons, here is a list:>Olay regenerist retinol 24 + peptide moisturizer,Neutrogena rapid wrinkle repair anti-aging retinol,RoC retinol correction anti-aging wrinkle serum,Naturewell retinol moisturizing cream.These are the ones that I could find while I was browsing that had the word “retinol” on the packaging and was wondering which one would you guys suggest.
>>18652113byoma, good molecules and cosrx are the most trustworthy drugstore level brands. i think that over the counter is a waste of time compared to pharmaceutical grade though
>>18652118>good moleculesI did end up seeing this but only reason I didn't put in the list is I have to go far to buy it, as for the other 2 never seen any byoma products but did see cosrx but just the weird snail stuff and no retinol.
>>18652118>i think that over the counter is a waste of time compared to pharmaceutical grade thoughI would second this. I used OTC, both Neutrogena and Olay for probably about a year and didn't see much change, but then after a few weeks of using tretinoin my skin noticeably improved.
She looks more attractive without makeup.
>>18650469are you often feeling exhausted and don't deal well with stress? check for addison's disease
>>18651956oh okay, yeah i'm mainly worried about the puffiness. i just bought a 1 time packet of hydrogel eye pads for de-puffing, but just read on the item i need to try this 2-3 times a week so going back to store today to buy more and see how they work out. :> thanks for sharing pic, i'll try and look more into glycine and nac, thankyou!! how long have you been trying the caffeine serum and when you started noticing a difference?>>18652550i'm diagnosed with ptsd and major depression, so yeah i feel like that adds to my constant feel of fatigue. i really need to start working out more to get rid of this lame feel mindset and want to get back into light cardio like brisk walking which i can handle. i try to stay away from stress :(( i just looked up addison's disease next time i go to the doctor's i'll ask about it. thanks for the info anon
>>18629058>eye area isn't strong enough for adapaleneDo I need to get a specific eye cream then?
Are GHK-Cu/Copper peptides really the only *somewhat* studied compound that actually preserve skin elasticity without being a probable endocrine disruptor like Estriol or Estradiol?
>>18653021>Do I need to get a specific eye cream then?Not really, depends on you. I'd say just apply it once a week by doing the whole sandwich moisturizing technique until you build better tolerance.But don't apply retinoids on the eyelids just the skin attached on the orbital bone.
has anyone had any success from a blue or red light mask, with Acne or other problems?
>>18652567I've been using the Caffeine serum for probably a year and a half. I'm not sure on the timeframe of when I started noticing improvements but felt like months, like at least 4. I would use the caffeine serum as part of my morning routine, every day.
>>18652106Elimination diet?But unironically just eat more salad. Like a lot more. A few large bowls each day. You'll see immediate improvement.
I have been in a long battle with halitosis caused by post-nasal drip. I have taken all of the normal recommended remedies like brushing and flossing multiple times a day, using a tongue scraper, elevating my head at night, et cetera. My problem is that most proposed solutions seem to be aimed at post-nasal drip happening at night, whereas I seem to have mucus at the back of my throat basically constantly throughout the day. I'm really at a loss, and as a result I chew peppermint gum almost pathologically when I know I'll be socializing. It feels like always having a pack of gum in my pocket is the only way I can have not-bad-smelling breath. Has anyone else dealt with this? Solutions? Again my oral hygiene regimen is thorough
>>18629058I've been using Paula's Choice Salicylic acid but I feel like my skins gotten worseAM:I don't wash my face AM ( I bathe at night)PM:Torriden Dive in CleanserPaulas choice acidTorridden soothing cream
Only been a little over a month and the Mupirocin is already completely ineffective...
>>18652106very high chance that it's dairy and processed foods
>>18654373>I've been using Paula's Choice Salicylic acid but I feel like my skins gotten worse>he fell for reddit astroturfing
I'm male. My facial mosturizer makes my skin look shiny/glisteny for the rest of the day after I apply it. Is this a good thing or does it just look greasy/oily to everyone else?
>>186543731. Ur probably washing your face with hot water when bathing, it strips the oils and dries your face, then ur applying a cleanser that strips it even more. So just try to avoid using hot water on your face, lukewarm is fine.2. You have to fully dry your face when using any both AHA and BHA acids, ur prob applying it instantly after cleansing when it's still wet and it's messing with your skin barrier.3. Consider getting a hydrating toner and apply it ~5 min after applying the salicylic acid.
>>18655069It depends on how shiny. A little bit of shine is good and what people mean when they say a person's skin is bright. Too much is bad though and like you mentioned is greasy looking. If it looks like the one in the middle or even a touch more it is fine and will generally be perceived as healthy bright skin by people.
skin care bros help. im in my 30s. these are the options in my supermarket what do i go for.vitanim C, retinol or hyaluron?
>>18629058What’s a good skincare routine for oily skin? I use the cerave foaming facial cleanser twice a day and vanicream moisturizers in the AM and PM. I know that face wash is pretty harsh so I’ve been looking into replacing it with something from Beplain.I want to try retinols and I’m also being recommended vitamin C serums, but I feel like the later just makes me get greasy quicker.Also trying to treat some puffiness under my eyes. Please help, I’ve staved off twink death for this long, I know I can make it a little further
>>18654373>paula's choice bhaalso did nothing for me>>18655443a routine with tretinoin and sunscreen will have a better effect than any of these, but if you had to pick one it would be the retinol. use sunscreen in the morning or you'll get burnt>>18655844I have acne prone oily skin, here's my routine>AMCeraVe 2% BHA cleanser -- removes oilVitamin C serum sometimesTrader Joe's gel moisturizer (highly recommend for combo/oily skin)CeraVe tinted sunscreen (iron oxide in tinted sunscreens is beneficial) or Trader Joe's invisible sunscreen if I'm in a rush>PMPanoxyl 4% benzoyl peroxide cleanser (you can definitely sub this for something else. BHA cleanser again if you can handle it without irritation, or a gentle cleanser if not)Adapalene 0.1% every night - would recommend tretinoin for you and start slowSame moisturizer>1x / week replaces PMLa Roche Posay Toleriane foaming cleanserThe Ordinary AHA BHA peelSame moisturizer afterwardsOily skin is usually way more resilient to actives. You'll be able to tell if you're overreaching pretty easily. Your skin will get red, dry, start to sting or itch. For me the first sign is stinging when I put on products. Once you're on tretinoin you may want to take more caution when adding new actives>Twink deathGet on finasteride. It will help your skin too. I'm 3 months in at 0.25 mg daily and have noticed reduced oil production
>>18655942>but if you had to pick one it would be the retinol. use sunscreen in the morning or you'll get burnti looked up some basic youtube videos and i think you are right.i will get the Nivea with Pro-retinol and hyaluron acid to apply before bed and a Nivea daily moisturizer with 30spf for before i get out.
>>18629125If you're lucky some people might have something similar on hand already. I found Essano Rosehip Moisturising Face Creme Cleanser shares similar key ingredients like aloe, MCT, tea tree, just in cream form with maybe a few extra nasties like stearate (so don't leave in long enough to feed). Pure MCT is best because it moisturizes deeply and is breathable without feeding the overgrown scalp biome at all, it prevents them from eating your skin's oil directly so therefore gives that skin layer time enough to repair itself from their abuse.Dermazen MCT cost $253.81 USD per litre though. I cheaped out and diluted 1 tsp or 5ml of this $10 AUD face creme into a little spray bottle of mainly baby oil (mineral oil moisturizes somewhat without feeding the Malassezia) then I add some more tea tree oil and just apply it to scalp on wash day. It's definitely greasy if left in but you can spray it hard into the creases of your scalp for instant relief and for only $5 USD per litre it washes away easy enough. It's been working as great as the reviews of Dermazen MCT say: "3-5 days without flakes or itchiness" so I haven't been bothered to buy my own pure MCT oil + emulsifier yet.
>>18648239>it's like 8 euros / 175 ml.Everywhere I look it's at least 20 euros, where do you order them from?
Do you think I can have a noticeable effect on my forehead wrinkles (not dues to age even though it got worse. But I had them since my teenage years) with anything that's not a surgery?
>>18657020cleanse with a gentle cleanserhyaluronic acid serum moisturizer sunscreenstay hydrated
>>18656979Notino https://www.notino.fr/garnier/ambre-solaire-sensitive-advanced-lait-solaire-pour-peaux-sensibles/p-16177187/
>>18645843Nta but I can attest for pic, its some good shit for not feeling caked on or leaving an oily sheen. Sometimes it leaves some white fringes on like my nose or sides near my beard, but a rerub fixes it