>using momentum badThis is a meme. Momentum is actually good for you.When you train fast, with momentum, you also train power, not just strength or endurance.
I like doing laterals seated, real fucking heavy
>>76774882My elbow is fucked up, I can't do these without a machine. Momentum is shit by the way. Just use lower weight with better form.
This is why resistance bands and tubes are superior for this exercise because you can't cheat when using them. Weights can be manipulated, you swing them up hard at the lowest point when it's easy, and that momentum carries you through to the hardest point to completion. 9/10 people I've seen do this, and is why they all bitch about their delts not growing.
>>76774908There is nothing wrong in using momentum like that. Just increase the weight until it's hard even with momentum.Their delts didn't grow because they used light weights.
>>76774952Post delts
>>76774882>Momentum is actually good for you.Start reading: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-031-32781-0_1Every bundle of muscle does only one single thing: contract. It will pull whatever tendon it is attached to in that direction, because it becomes shorter and takes it with it. Whatever joint or bone that tendon is attached to, moves along with it.If you are targeting a certain muscle with an exercise, only movements that require the contraction of that muscle will stimulate that muscle. Momentum is force that has already been generated by other muscles, so it does not stimulate the muscle the exercise is supposed to target.Literally human physiology 101.
>>76774979>Momentum is force that has already been generated by other muscles, so it does not stimulate the muscle the exercise is supposed to target.Wrong, if you increase the weight momentum won't be enough to move it fully, you will need strong muscle force.
>>76774908>>76774967>>76774979If you say that you don't train delts when you do lateral raises with momentum, then what muscles do you train? Quads? What gives the momentum?
>>76774979no thanks jeff
>>76775015Depends how bad the form is. The delts will be working, but for a fraction of the time than if the exercise was performed properly, and only during the easiest part of the exercise. Adding more weight to make up for bad form is like saying kicking your legs up to get your chin to the bar is a legit pullup.
>>76775015>What gives the momentum?Gravity, force generated by the lowering of the weight, and it swinging back. Stabilization muscles, especially teres minor and infraspinatus. While you move your shoulder, one of the things keeping your arm in a straight line while it moves is the teres minor and major muscles, and the infraspinatus and supraspinatus. If you let momentum carry your arm upward, teres minor and infraspinatus contribute to the dumbbell staying at equal distance to your elbow, and your elbow staying in place relative to your shoulder joint. Your core contributes, it virtually always contributes, but the less you control a moving weight with your arm/shoulder muscles, the more the core contributes.
>>76774882>t. has non-refundable ticket to snap city
>>76775088>Stabilization muscles, especially teres minor and infraspinatus.>Your core contributes, it virtually always contributesSo using momentum will train more muscles? I will continue, then.>>76775101No, I don't do squats and deadlift,
>>76775088>Gravity, force generated by the lowering of the weight, and it swinging backStick to sports science online degrees, not physics
Explosivity being demonized in bodybuilding is the epitome of mental illness and nerd dogma in the space. The average OLY non-heavyweight looks better than every person on the 2025 olympia yet the only controlled movements they do are mobility ones
>>76775169The arm adducts with the weight of the dumbbell attached to the end of it. If the movement is controlled, the deltoid muscle is contracting to counteract gravity pulling the weight down.If the deltoid is not contracted and gravity pulls the arm inward, please illustrate in this image where the force of the gravity pulling on the dumbbell ends up, if not counteracted by the contraction of any other muscles?
>>76775177This. Olympic weight lifters use momentum everywhere and they are more fit and look better than powershitters and bodybuilders.Momentum, power = fitness. Strong and powerful.>>76775206>If the deltoid is not contractedBut it is contracted, even if you use momentum and power during lateral raises. If not deltoid, then who is lifting the weight?
>>76774979Muscles, tendons, and ligaments respond to and are stimulated differently by strong abrupt force and slow consistent force. There is a type of tissue growth achieved in explosive maneuvers that cannot be achieved in slow controlled ones.
>>76775224>If not deltoid, then who is lifting the weight?Yes, the deltoid lifted the weight up. Now it goes down. How does the weight go down if the deltoid is still contracted?
>>76775238>There is a type of tissue growth achievedHow? Can you explain the biomolecular differences in stimulation, nervous system signalling and endrocrine response resulting in different types of tissue development?
>>767752061) The force required to prevent gravity from smashing your knees isn't ''generated by the lowering of the weight'' nor by gravity itself, as per your first post2) Now that the weight has stopped next to the knee, what force is making it swing back up via momentum? The delt doesn't store enough potential to move the weight.If you're doing one-arm bent-over lateral raises, alright
>>76775240Gravity takes the weight down, but the deltoid is still contracted to slow it down so it doesn't hit your thighs.
Notice how a lot of "golden" and silver era bodybuilders had either 1 powerlifting (when it was still not as regulated as today and form was loose) backgrounds or olympic liftingThey all used a lot of momentum to complete reps and assistance from others and did banana reps. From arnold to jay to yates to coleman, no matter the program or volume or intensity they still trained the same, with heavy weights and slight form breaking near the last reps and momentumPart of why everyone nowadays looks like a watery bloated latex muscle suit is the way they train, they all train like daisys
If you're training for maximal strength, size, or joint health, do your reps slow and controlled and OP is a faggot. If you train for performance i.e. sports or other really kinetic activities, OP is based and not a faggot. Superposition.
>>76775263To add, (You) should also probably do both on separate weeks/months/mesocycles/whatever
>>76775246I'm not going to do your research faggot just look up static vs dynamic stress on cartilage or something similar on google.
>>76775263I want strength and power / explosivity. I can train both at same time by using fast movements at heavy weights.But I plan to have dedicated plyometrics training too, but it's too soon, I need more strength and mass first.
>>76775255>Gravity takes the weight down, but the deltoid is still contracted to slow it down so it doesn't hit your thighs.Yeah exactly. It's contracted to slow it down. The more it's contracted, the more the movement is slowed down, the less momentum is preserved to use for abduction. The less the deltoid is contracted, the more momentum is preserved and used during abduction, so during the entire movement the deltoid contracts less during adduction to control the weight, and less during abduction since momentum is preserved for the return swing.>>76775254>>76775255Also typically, when individuals choose to preserve momentum for lateral deltoid raises, the dumbbell is rotated through pronation and flexion of the wrist, and a slight deviation forward.>>76775272I wasn't asking you to. I was asking you if you have the required knowledge about the functional morphology of the human musculoskeletal system, endocrine responses to physical exertion and nervous system signalling to explain the validity of your claim. "look up static vs dynamic stress on cartilage or something similar on google" is not a very convincing argument.Luckily for you, I can tell you why your argument doesn't hold up. The primary agent of tissue allocation in response to physical exertion is not muscle tissue, it's the nervous system. Type I, oxidative type II and glycolytic type II muscle fibres all have one function and one effect upon contraction. They can't do anything other than that. Either they don't contract, or they contract and successfully counteract the force, or they contract and unsuccessfully counteract the force (resulting in failure of the movement or tearing), or they don't contract and the force is too great, which usually results in catastrophic and possibly life-threatening damage. The force and the direction of applied force has no impact on the mechanistic functions of muscles, nor any impact on tissue allocation, since this is controlled by the nervous system.
>>76775376>Yeah exactly. It's contracted to slow it down. The more it's contracted, the more the movement is slowed down, the less momentum is preserved to use for abduction. The less the deltoid is contracted, the more momentum is preserved and used during abduction, so during the entire movement the deltoid contracts less during adduction to control the weight, and less during abduction since momentum is preserved for the return swing.Nothing is preserved, retard. At the bottom position of my lateral raise, the dumbbell is resting on the thighs. I start each rep from stopped position.When I said to use "momentum" I meant that when you raise the dumbbell you do it as fast as possible, dynamic.>Luckily for you, I can tell you why your argument doesn't hold up. The primary agent of tissue allocation in response to physical exertion is not muscle tissue, it's the nervous system.It is scientifically proven that, if you train using slow movements, you will only have strength for slow movements. If you want to be explosive, you need to train fast but still heavy.
man this really is one of the most retarded boards on the website huh
>>76775407>I start each rep from stopped position>I said to use "momentum"
>>76775412Yes, anti momentum fags are retarded and dogmatic. Momentum is the future. Trains power and strength.
>>76775422We have a misunderstanding what momentum is. You only think that momentum = swinging. I think that momentum is also when you start lateral raises with heavy acceleration from the bottom, and you continue the speed until the top position.Lifting without momentum = slow and controlled.
>>76775435If you start your rep from a stopped position, there is no momentum. If v = 0, p = 0. What you're talking about is acceleration speed, not momentum.If you start abducting your arm, the contraction of the deltoid accelerates the weight from a stationary position (along with the stabilization of the elbow by the triceps and the wrist by the extensor muscles).
>>76774882You are an ego lifter.
>>76775457When you start from zero, there is no momentum, but in the middle of lateral raise, there is momentum.If you try to do lateral raise using maximum acceleration, it will be easier and you can lift more weight, than if you do lateral raise in slow and controlled way.I am against slow, I lift fast.
>>76775435So you don’t know what momentum is but you started a thread and argued about it incessantly? Cool.
>>76775015>What gives the momentum?Rotator cuff muscles
>>76775483No, I know what momentum is, you don't.
Momentum is the new king.
>>76774882>Do exercise with perfect form>Reach failure>Use momentum to cheat some extra reps for extra stimulusIt's that easy
MAXIMUM ACCELERATION
ok
Momentum is based.
What is this thread about exactly? Is it about momentum, or just doing the exercise with good form, but faster? If you are just doing 'explosive' reps, then the difference is trivial really, especially when talking about delts (in what situation would you need explosive delts lmao). If you are throwing your body around to get reps, then you are just removing tension on the muscle you are trying to target, which is retarded. The same as swinging your legs to cheat on the pullup bar. If you want to do that, fine, it's better than doing nothing, but don't cry when your muscles don't grow fast enough.
People using momentum are more likely to stop waaay before real failure on the muscle they are training. That's why it's dumb.
the machine version of this exercise is better in every way possible
>>76774908>Weights can be manipulated, you swing them up hard at the lowest point when it's easy>resistance bandsEasiest at shortest length. The bottom in most lifts. In the same way you can use momentum to carry you forward with bands. >tubes???
>>76775989>What is this thread about exactly? Is it about momentum, or just doing the exercise with good form, but faster? If you are just doing 'explosive' reps,Explosive reps, accelerate dumbbell as fast as possible. But not swinging, pendulum.>especially when talking about delts (in what situation would you need explosive delts lmao). Yes, lateral deltoids don't need to be fast, but I train all muscles in such way.>The same as swinging your legs to cheat on the pullup bar.Swinging bad, but dynamic pull ups are good.>>76775998I train to failure and more than failure, until can't move limb into the direction of the exercise.>>76776048Not every way - you can't do it at home.
>>76775457>acceleration speedAcceleration is by definition proportional to force. If the velocity is increasing, then the net force is positive in the direction of velocity. If it is decreasing, then the net force is negative in the direction of velocity. >>76774882>>76774897>>76774952>momentumIf something is moving, then there is momentum. You don't use momentum. Momentum is just something that happens. The goal is to have the muscle groups you want to train consistently exert force. A more controlled motion is generally better for this. The tendency for the jerking the weights up with the glues/erectors and then "emphasizing" the negative is that people who do so usually end up just dropping the weights because they're using too much weight. They can't catch the weight and make it stop in the top, hold for a few seconds, then do a 4-6 second negative. It's just throw weight up, drop it down while pretending that because they're moving fast they're training "power" and "explosiveness." No control and a very inconsistent application of force if any exerted by the muscle you want to place the load on.
>>76776183You can't squat heavy without some momentum and explosivness
>>76775206There is no reason to believe that using your erectors and glutes to power up a pair of dumbbells and then try to catch them with your delts will do anything comparable to using the delts exclusively to move the weight. Your model also ignores the reality that the traps and supraspinatus are involved in the motion. The supraspinatus can adduct the humerus. The traps also rotate the scapula which also generates the motion. And of course, the shape of the ribcage and so on affects how you'll load the muscles too. And then the distribution and movement of fluids within the muscle do affect how it exerts force as well as the relative length of each muscle. The lever model, especially the one you posted, is garbage in general as it fails to account for everything else in the system. During abduction you want to allow a degree of scapular rotation since you will tend to run into problems with tendon irritation and shoulder mobility issues which often plague powerlifters who get stuck in a retracted position and PEC pattern because they stick to retraction. You should expect some traps during the motion. Supraspinatus use in the bottom 15 degrees is especially guaranteed as it is required to help initiate abduction since the delts are not nearly as active in that portion of the movement. >>76775618No reason to believe you get any extra stimulus from going beyond failure. In fact, the moment you reach failure, motor recruitment drops due to the muscles having been flooded with metabolic byproducts which interfere with their ability to contract. Motor unit recruitment for high threshold motor units (the ones that grow most) has stopped at failure and now the recruitment is dropping entirely to the lower threshold motor units which don't really grow very much. You're jerking up to use 60% of the muscle with the same weight. You're not getting anything from that. Same reason why dropsets are shit. You already cooked everything that mattered at failure.
>>76776202>momentum and explosivness>squatIf you're squatting anywhere near maximum, the velocity of the motion will very slow by nature because net acceleration will be low. The positives for anything close to true 1RM will always be slow. >explosivness"Explosiveness" is just high excessive acceleration. Which means you're using a much greater force than is required to move the weight. Implying that the weight is far from maximal. In other words, you're far stronger than the weight you're moving while having a fairly efficient motor unit recruitment rate. >momentumAs I've stated before, you cannot "use momentum." Momentum is equivalent to an object just moving. In the case of squats, either you can use your legs, and lower back to move the weight up, or you can't. There is no ability to use other muscles groups to jerk the weight up like someone can do with something like curls. So you can't generate momentum with outside muscle groups. What really happens is that by dropping into the bottom of a squat, you try to exploit some of the elasticity of the muscle to reduce the chance you get stuck in the bottom by trying to accelerate as much as possible upward. With the force generated by the muscle on itself together with the force you're putting into the bar by trying to contract with the sarcomeres, there ends up being more force than the sarcomeres can generate alone. If you were to say stop at the bottom, you'd find that the concentric is much more difficult as you can only rely then on the force the sarcomeres can exert. From a perspective of training a muscle, you want to make things as hard for the muscle as possible as active mechanical tension is what stimulates growth. Dropping into the bottom can take the load of the muscle, especially with rep work, and hence be less effective than moving in a much more controlled manner.
>>76774882nobody wants to admit it but cable laterals suck for this exact reason everyone loves to rally behind this shit but nobody actually does it, and when they do it's only for a few months. pure isolation fucking sucks, it's a complete brick wall. you need momentum and nearby muscle recruitment to squeeze out as much as you can with as few reps in reserve as possible
>>76775015Your lower back? I only got shoulder gains in particular when i started going strict most of the time.>only size gains i want strengthYou can train lower reps strict, for side raises i prefer unilateral and have to kinda start from a raised position like a bench press and also really shove my shoulder forward first. With any pressing movement or even this one, being shrunk backwards is gonna lead to injury your shoulder joint and humerus have to be rotated and laterally neutral under load if you wanna put any kind of meaningful weight on the lift.
>>76774908Thats actually why a lot of people never have big rear delts despite rowing a lot or only develop a chest benching. Ive somehow developed insane tendon strength as i still wasnt getting much stimulus high rom rowing 100lbs when id do 5 or so rep sets with 70ishlbs doing them normal and uni.
>>76775435So you don't know what momentum is lolAnyway lifting fast on concentric should always be a thing. But it is as fast as you can, if you're lifting really fast then the weight is light and not heavy at all. lifting slow on purpose doesn't give you anything but only make you tired faster
>>76776208I honestly like doing the cheat reps first if i want tendon strength, and if i want hard muscle ill try and torque it up strict as you cant tendon bounce this way or start from as low rom without risking changing the movement mid rep regarding your paused rep part. A good hack to instantly grow front delts is head through reverse grip mp and incline, i have more fromt delts that flow to the pecs now from 1wk of training it along with stretched and half rep speed rep delt biased bench 10/10 would recommend. I find tensing your fists and twisting frim hand to elbow also and using your hunerus like a lever when not just normally pressing if you want delts hard to grow with front raises and conventional presses.
>>76776456You can try and push through, or even go the opposite way of cheating to really nail whatever muscle instead of the kinetic chain. I was doing reverse mp this way with 85-95lbs while i can do 185 all day just to show how drastic the difference in perceived strength there is in delts without momentum and using core/back. And ofc along with some heavier work to nail the hard pump and supporting muscles. I basically have to work on 3 different rom depths to really nail delts but my strength has been increasing biweekly/monthly being able to really muscle the weight over just pushing through with objectively less resistance doimg full rom all the time. Kinda shit cables/dbs fail to hit due to lower actual load on the fibers.
>>76774882Im trying to get a massive front raise, mid delts always grew easy pressing. Try some og mudbones braced even standing and go down or stagnant with your chest instead of lifting with your torso. Also allowing for elbow bend is not "bad form" just raise the weight and call it a day you wanna get max stimulus by the end of the workout so your rest actually does something otherwise youre just slightly hardening tendons for no gains look at most powerlifter(pl style lifters too) delt sizes typically not mega gnar tier although his chest is all pl bench looking.
>>76776489>You can try and push through, or even go the opposite way of cheating to really nail whatever muscle instead of the kinetic chain. I was doing reverse mp this way with 85-95lbs while i can do 185 all day just to show how drastic the difference in perceived strength there is in delts without momentum and using core/back. And ofc along with some heavier work to nail the hard pump and supporting muscles.what are you on about
>>76774882I prefer cables for most supplementary shoulder work since im not worried about looking stupid getting into a sprinters stance and shit.
>>76776526Finangling torso angle, doing the opposite of cheating reps and lowering weight to hit weird fibers and just nail the one motion.Shits sick you should see my physique, i nail delts every 1-3 days, looks big as fuck from the side. I also do typically high rep lifts with low rep speed reps and am good at finding the pocket/developing a brace for any given movement plus making it a full movement to put weight on and make said muscle the main mover with a heavier weight. What kinda development are you looking for? I'mm an encyclopedia for bodybuilding, i have a solid decade of experience and grow considerably every month as its my only hobby.
