What we were supposed to get was sadly just a little too hefty for general purpose use, so instead we got SHIT. If you've ever used Squeak, well they had that shit basically up and running by 1990 on PCs and that's the future we should have taken but it was too late already and Disney (who was sponsoring huge research into computers back then) was very stingy with their code not releasing it until it was WAY WAY too late.What we were supposed to get was a super clean system where everything could be inspected and changed while running, and everything was as small and simple and clean as possible, to enable user-developers to customize their work environment easily after a couple days of training. CIA used Smalltalk-based workstations with software called Agent, and they apparently had many user-developers because part of the trick with it was using the capabilities of Smalltalk to create special views incorporating different data. By changing a few lines of code here and there and using the object picker and inspector. But it was a bit slow compared to more neutered PC OS's and now we're stuck with either various versions of the phone company's OS with different environments glued atop of it, or Windows lol.It could all be brought back but these days a big organization doesn't want a bunch of high-IQ user developers using computers as tools to the best of their capabilities. They want everybody to use the same garbage internal crud which probably either is so old and buggy that it's impossible to use, or changes every year to something worse than what came before. That would make onboarding harder and now people tend to work for a company for 2-4 years tops.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwL3yXdupv0
>>106465683Yeah, Alan Kay is still a great visionary.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY6XqmMm4YAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdSD07U5uBsThere's also Bret Victor.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DIIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTjiXjqHrQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUaOucZRlmE
>>106465683>>106465751If faggot mods and troon jannies did their only (unpaid) job in the world, this type would be the only type of threads here.
>>106465751Years ago before 'the modern web' I developed a bit in Squeak and we dogfooded it hard. You could browse the web, use your OS's native terminal or just issue commands to the OS and take the output and send it along, there's nothing like it to this day. I still fire it up every now and again. It's quite fast enough for everyday use, only barrier I see is lack of 3D acceleration other than if you have OpenGL. If you want to see a fully OO 'metaverse' you can still boot up the Croquet Project. It's very very cool and Zucc could have just used it entire, it's all Free. But he didn't want user-developers either. Back in the day there were quite a few people with various environments you could get to by warping around (really connecting to their machine) and you could chit chat, collaborate on Smalltalk projects (and others, one guy had a C compiler in Smalltalk), etc. All while sitting there in a virtual environment.Research into Croquet and spinoffs seems to have totally halted other than Pharo, the VM survived and some 3D stuff I guess and was incorporated into later Squeak. Croquet's originally just a normal Squeak project. But some stuff survived and works, there's manycore Squeak, that still works but images break with other VMs after you load them into it (it can ingest normal Squeak images just fine). Pharo people have a VM they're working on too. But I don't like Pharo, it's neutered compared to Squeak.
I saw a video of Ingalls demonstrating his Smalltalk-based optical character recognition software and haven't been able to find it since. He live coded the thing up in like 25 minutes, it was stunning. Sanskrit.
>>106465683>Listen to Alan Kay or Dan Ingalls talk some time about OO.Alan Kay was absolutely based, but here you are talking to a ton of Java/C/C++ jeets that can't even comprehend any different kind of OOP.
>>106465813>If faggot mods and troon jannies did their only (unpaid) job in the world, this type would be the only type of threads here.Preach on, brother!! So true
>>106465925>But I don't like Pharo, it's neutered compared to Squeak.Common Lispfag here, so I am very much into interactive programming.Would you please elaborate? I was always a bit curious to try Pharo and I (erroneusly?) thought it was an evolution over Squeak.
>>106466003I blame Bjarne. He's the guy who was like "OO? We can strap that onto C no problem." All of a sudden the OO paradigm goes from something you can teach to kids or adults in an afternoon to a project that could span a year of an average person's spare time so they can make something to write down recipes in or calculate how much lumber various decks their mom draws on the screen would take to build. The second would be an easy project for a sixth-grade child with at 2-3 days of Smalltalk experience.>>106466040Pharo threw out a lot of stuff from Squeak, and added their own stuff because the idea is to make it a slicker development backend for modern webshit. Squeak is what you want, it's still in active development with the trunk release and packages receiving updates. Get both and just launch 'em and poke around for a few minutes. You'll see what I mean.
>>106466087>I blame Bjarne. He's the guy who was like "OO? We can strap that onto C no problem."Well, before the dominance of C++ the programming languages that were popular for OOP were Smalltalk and CLOS.The amazing thing was that Smalltalk was a corporate thing, for example IBM sold it as a product (VisualAge) and it was used for creating enterprise systems.I am certain that Java became popular because IBM and Sun Microsystems intentionally agreed to market Java instead of Smalltalk and took the necessary measures to (a) promote java everywhere (tons of marketing) and (b) kill IBM's smalltalk offers.Java's first official release is in 1996 and C++ first important standard is fromn 1998 (while the language itself was available in the late 80s). While C++ came earlier, I am really thinking that the push for Java contributed to popularize C++, since at the beginning Java (which, again, was marketed as the eight wonder of the world) ran hideously slow, while C++ allowed you to do more or less of the same shitty OOP but at lightning fast speeds.
>>106466087>Pharo threw out a lot of stuff from Squeak, and added their own stuff because the idea is to make it a slicker development backend for modern webshit. Squeak is what you want, it's still in active development with the trunk release and packages receiving updates. Get both and just launch 'em and poke around for a few minutes. You'll see what I mean.Thanks Obi-Wan, i'm taking note. I (wrongly) thought that Squeak was completely abandoned.
>>106466288>The amazing thing was that Smalltalk was a corporate thing, for example IBM sold it as a product (VisualAge) and it was used for creating enterprise systems.What's even crazier is that it started out at Xerox PARC who threw a lot of money and effort at it making various machines and such but due to ineptitude nobody there could sell them. Plus as with LISP Machines in the day, they were very expensive.The famous demo where Jobs got a taste of the Alto running Smalltalk was enough for Apple to invest in Smalltalk for years but they couldn't really bring it to the desktop because affordable computers were too weak still. So instead we got WIMP which is OK but nothing like Smalltalk. The equivalent of a C64 with no BASIC, cartridges only. Soon all your software will have to be signed on the popular modern OS's, or it already has to be.>>106466306They have stable releases which actually stay stable for while, but they have a trunk as well which is where active development is. There is also a package manage (2 actually) where you can get all kinds of Squeak software. Tons of it really.I like to keep organized by retaining a pristing 'master' workspace and creating new ones for any messing about or running other software. With Squeak it's easy to run a new VM inside your VM, there is no cost other than changes. It copies the current VM you're in by default but you can create a new 'default' VM as well. It makes testing software easy, you can always crash your current VM and it'll just kick you back to the previous one where you can inspect it post-mortem and even fix the offending bugs and resume like with some Common Lisp environments.The undo is incredibly interesting too. You can essentially take some image you've mucked with and saved and restored and then later on just undo everything back to the default starter VM image you get from the Squeak site. You have to choose to persist the undo state across VM saves, it bloats the save file a bit.
>>106465683>a super clean system where everything could be inspected and changed while running, and everything was as small and simple and clean as possible, to enable user-developers to customize their work environment easily after a couple days of training.sounds like Eclipse IDE and well written Java to me
>>106466529Have you even used Eclipse? Have you tried to build it? It's a mess.Can you go into Java with Eclipse and change IT while your code's running? What if there's a Java bug or something? Try changing that from within Eclipse and committing the change and see if that fixes it right? Sounds crazy but that's how Smalltalk works. Systems programming live coding! You can evolve your very language as you use it in fundamental ways! LOL you have no idea what's goin' on.All of Squeak including the VM and the huge number of examples and documentation is like two dozen MB, too. Eclipse, well it's unclear how big it even really is because you have to use a DOWNLOADER to get it and its packages or rely on your distro's out of date version which will break shit. Try to build it, you can't. They've made it quite impossible. You can get the code, sure. But go ahead and build it, I DARE you lol.
>>106466288>I am certain that Java became popular because IBM and Sun Microsystems intentionally agreed to market Java instead of Smalltalk and took the necessary measures to (a) promote java everywhere (tons of marketing) and (b) kill IBM's smalltalk offers.Interesting. They also sold it hard as 'write once run anywhere' which is hardly true these days at all with old Java.Meanwhile you can open up the default ST-84 or ST-80's in Squeak as workspaces, the clean images typed (OCR'd) straight from the spec books, and work along with the original Smalltalk textbook and system programming books. Kind of an interesting view of an alternate future. Maybe its time will come.
>>106465925Cool, didn't know such a thing existed and I've always been interested in virtual worlds and modifiable/scriptable gameshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXGLOiZUZ2UMainstream gaming killed all of that kind of early 2000s experimentation.
>>106466629>Have you even used Eclipse?I use it daily>Can you go into Java with Eclipse and change IT while your code's running?the debugger allows for hot-swapping code, as well as executing any arbitrary code on a breakpoint (Debug Shell)>What if there's a Java bug or something?be more specific
