No one who creates retro gaming monitors seems to understand half of the appeal of CRTs are the big bulky retro looking monitor. If you just have flat screen LCD with adapters in the back there is no soul.
Gives me an ick
>>106755637High TVL and RGB defeats the point of a CRT. If you want good picture quality, just use a flat panel + HDMI. CRT's are for composite on consumer sets.
>>106755675Everybody who cared about quality used RGB CRTs. Arcade games were all RGB. The point of CRTs is the fast phosphor decay, which cannot be fully simulated with any other technology (480Hz OLED comes close).
>>106756002>Arcade games were all RGBBecause that was the JAMMA spec, not because developers asked for it. The logistics of starting a new production line of intentionally shittier monitors instead of reusing existing arcade hardware (ie the whole point of JAMMA) was just an impossibility lol. Devs knew their arcade games were coming to home consoles eventually, and thus used dithering (a technique that makes no sense on RGB) all throughout the artwork in their arcade games.
Zoomers are straight retards and GAY for paying money for this antique bullshitthe instant flat screens became available this shit was garbage>muh blacks>muh motion bluronly a woman or art fag would care. I'm a normal male and don't give a shit because I can't tell. it's a display. a red umbrella on a crt is a red umbrella on a flat screen. what are you... stupid?
>>106756060>a technique that makes no sense on RGBOh no, he's completely and utterly retarded.
i love the inky blacks of CRTs!
>>106756555Why is VISIBLE dithering desirable?
>>106755637i always cringe when i see redditors displaying games on pvmsplaying retro shit on them just makes you a poser or a retarded zoomerfaggot with fake nostalgiapeople that actually lived that era used average consumer tvs for vidya, with blurry pixels, crushed blacks and bleeding colors
>>106756699cause it looks cool
>>106756699>VISIBLE ditheringYeah, you really don't get it.
>>106756707No, it looks retarded. Dithering is meant to be blended together on shitty video setups.
>>106756515>loudmouth contrarian 4tard outsting himself as being clueless while pretending he knows somethingMany such cases!
>>106756703>people that actually lived that era used average consumer tvs for vidyaWhy would you assume that everyone was a console peasant, are you a compulsive liar?
>>106756703Average customer tvs all accept RGB in Europe
>>106756703I always laugh when I see retards crying about PVMs. I'm sorry you didn't buy one when they were 20 bucks, dude.
How do I hack
Nothing more dishonest than PVM havers pretending they're getting the same experience people did in 1995
>>106756707:)
RetroArch shaders on a glossy 4k LED with local dimming installed in a wooden box with a bezel that frames the image as 4:3 would provide a beautiful image that even the most hardcore CRT enthusiasts would have to appreciate.
>>106757198Okay so tell me exactly what the major differences in me playing a CPS2 game on a 1995 accurate monitor vs a "PVM" are that get you so upset. I bet you can't. I bet you don't know shit about this topic from a technical perspective.
>>106755637https://archive.org/details/1990s-sony-trinitron-television-how-it-was-made-vintage-tv-crt-tube-electronicsWhenever someone asks if CRT manufacturing could come back, show them this. A billion dollar factory, top of the line robotics, hundreds of employees all to make a product which is unequivocally inferior to today’s television sold exclusively to a niche market of retro game enthusiasts. It will never happen again. All the CRTs there are are all there’ll ever be.Even still, the few thousand total sales from Redditoids and 4chan incels won't cover it.You are making an inferior product for an extremely niche market.Those CRTs you find are using scavenged stock.Once that's gone it's literally impossible to manufacture more; not just because the infrastructure no longer exists, but because CRTs were only viable to produce because of scale: you needed a massive production line of thousands of people where one guy was an expert in making one thing. The professional market (PVM/BVMs which sold by the thousands) was only kept afloat by the consumer market (150 TVL pieces of shit which was sold by the millions).Moreover, making the parts used is now illegal because of toxic chemicals.No kickstarter is going to fund your gigantic illegal underground CRT assembly line that employs more people than the mafia, I'm sorry.
>>106760812What was a billion dollars then is much less now.
>>106760780Arcade monitors were usually lower TVL on average
>>106760780>>106760848Also, OP posted an image of Resi 2
i just use a shaderi am not gonna waste money on a crt
Games designed, programmed, and tested on professional displays, arcade monitors, and high scan rate PC monitors must have been meant for the hand me down wood-paneled 80's shitbox anon's parents gave him to put in his room. Enthusiasts of PC hardware and video games all used crappy bargain bin displays just like anon did. Because autists do not have theory of mind and are thus incapable of recognizing their personal experiences as anything but a universal truth.
>>106760848That's not good enough, fuck-o. Tell me the exact TVL of a Nanao MS8-25F. Tell me why using a "PVM" (which encompasses 30 years of monitors development) is such a bad substitute. You can't because you don't know the answer. You just regurgitate stupid crap.
>>106760888Based lunar SegaCD Chad
>>106760859That's irrelevant, it's just a stand in for "video game". Resident Evil 2 came out in 1998, so you can't claim it's got anything to do with 1995.
>>106760981runs on 1995 hardware used with composite on consumer CRTs by 95% of peoplein fact by using PVM + RGB you're making the overall aesthetics look worse. The backgrounds now feel jaggied and the character models don't blend well with them.
>>106761003You know what kills retards like you?
>>106761078>Devs used equipment worth millions therefore consumers had that
I'd just like to interject for a moment. a CRT is not soulfull by itself, but rather another component of a fully functioning home cinema/hifi/videogame system made soulful by the VHS recorder, amplifier, tuner, videogame systems and dedicated furniture comprising a full suolful experience as defined by real men
>>106760812They really don’t make them like this anymore. American workers, well-paid, making quality equipment. Now instead of having Japanese TVs made in America we have Chinese TVs made in Vietnam.
>>106755637that's why I kinda like those Checkmate monitors. https://checkmate1500plus.com/IntroductionDisplays.aspxI saw some IRL at a display booth somewhere. they're not perfect but still pretty cool.
>>106760812A crt is nothing but an electron gun in a vacuum tube deflected towards some phosphors on glass. Those technologies have gotten almost incomparably better in the past 20 years, because they're still used. Just not in consumer CRT sets. A modern CRT could be made and it could absolutely blow anything else on the market out of the water, it'd just be super expensive.
>>106755637I don't think you understand either how hated CRTs were or how recently people got rid of them.In 2007 CRTs were still outselling LCDs at retail. By 2011 the average household no longer had a CRT TV at all. From market leader to literal trash in less than half a decade.Besides if you really were fine with having a fuckhuge CRT in your house you would've just never thrown yours out and thus wouldn't be complaining about wanting new replacement solutions.
>>106761431I had a CRT until 2015…
>>106761189
>>106761003You're not qualified to participate in this discussion.
>>106760888Think I saw you in the desktop thread earlier this week, I downloaded this game too.
>>106761003>runs on 1995 hardwareIrrelevant to the discussion, 1995 video hardware was very advanced>used with composite on consumer CRTs that was one option>95% of peopleSo what?95% or more of people today listen to music on shitty earbuds. That doesn't mean it's "wrong" to listen on a hi-fi set-up. I'm not loyal to nor trying to recreate some punk-ass kid's shitty bedroom set-up from 1995.
>>106760888>1366x768Based
>>106760888>i am not gonna waste money on a crtThey are free on Facebook Marketplace
>>106755637If you didn't grow up gaming on one of these, lower your time when talking to me.
>>106756060>>106756699>>106756767You are retarded and don't know what you're talking aboutDithering can be blended on RGBLook at Epic Pinball on DOSOn a coarse dot pitch that game looks right but on a fine dot pitch it looks shit Arcade games designed their dithering for specific dot pitches just like Epic PinballA huge chunk of Arcade games never were ported to home consoles, and the ones that were... at least half of them had their artwork redrawn from scratch to make it run on underpowered consoles
>>106755662ywnbaw you tranny freak
>>106761078Nigger stfuFF7 like all PSX games used composite as referenceWhy? Because PSX could only do 15bit color in RGB whereas with composite dithering you could get 24bit color(and fake transparencies)Now the master assets for FF7 and all that were 24bit color but the PSX couldn't output them over RGB but it could over Composite or RF
>>106764165FF7 literally had a PC release you retard
>>106756699to have smoother looking gradients given a limited colour palette, which is the point of dithering in general. dithering has nothing to do with display technologythe playstation as an example since it's in op uses 15-bit colour. without dithering you'd get some pretty heavy banding
>>106764180Have you ever considered that the PSX release of FF7 had a composite reference?
>>106755675Euros had RGB on their CRTs this entire time. VGA is also RGB moron lol
>>106756703Nobody is playing this on a PVM for nostalgia you dumb asshole. Did you even grow up with RF?
>>106755675Retard, my CRT does resolutions higher than 720p, and a good one back in the day could do 1440p.
CRT TV's were literal trashHigh resolution CRT monitors were incredible and STILL shit all over LCD. OLED comes close but still has the horrid motion blur problem.
>>106765040>to have smoother looking gradients given a limited colour paletteDithering literally doesn't look smooth. The purpose of dithering is to give the illusion of greater colour depth over a shit video setup.>>106764180Yeah it came out on PC using PSX assets.>>106765211>VGA is also RGB moronI don't see where I suggested otherwise.
>>106765419>Dithering literally doesn't look smoothi said smoother looking gradients, not that the dither patterns themselves were smooth>The purpose of dithering is to give the illusion of greater colour depthcorrect>over a shit video setup.not necessarily. dithering provides that illusion whether your display is blurry or not.
>>106765467>dithering provides that illusionI don't think the illusion is working because I constantly see people complaining that modern games dither objects instead of using LODs. The illusion clearly is evidently not being sold over high quality pixel-perfect video. For me, I'd rather have visuals designed with fewer colours in mind if it reduces dithering.
>>106765524i do understand that a blurry display hides dithering artifacts, and that games made for <6th gen consoles were made with the expectation of being viewed over composite (though there were some options for better even then, as is typical games need to be designed to work well with the most number of people, so this means targeting the most common technologies).however, outside of consoles, you still saw heavy use of dithering. like any home computer game in the '80s and '90s when using a computer monitor, dithering was used to some degree with the vast majority of games, despite not being smoothed out.>I'd rather have visuals designed with fewer colours in mind if it reduces dithering.that's a personal preference. while it does depend a bit on the situation, i personally will take dithering noise/patterns over banding any day. and sure, on 2d consoles you could just use simple drawings that don't really have either (don't even attempt to draw gradients), this limits what you can draw quite a bit though.personally, while i did grow up playing playstation over composite almost exclusively (except the old 14" tv i had in my room which only did RF), i now play it on a TV with scart using RGB. despite looking different, i think it's a straight upgrade. it's not like you couldn't see dithering even over composite, it was just harder to make out because everything was blurry
>>106765739Even 6th gen games have heavy dithering across the screen; these games ran in a lower colour depth to preserve VRAM.>like any home computer game in the '80s and '90s when using a computer monitorI mean, CGA monitors and stuff were meant for composite. That was actually a thing on PC displays back then. Blurry high-colour modes were distinguished from more readable "text modes" with fewer colours/monochromacity.
>>106765766it's generally quite difficult to notice on 6th consoles, since they would have used at least 16-bit colour (twice as many colours as 15-bit psx/n64 games), and they're much higher resolution. between the two you'd likely find it difficult to notice dithering artifacts on a standard television>CGA monitors and stuff were meant for composite. That was actually a thing on PC displays back thenno, CGA required a CGA monitor. i don't believe PCs were ever intended to be used on a television. other home computers around the time did though.
>>106765813>since they would have used at least 16-bit colour Only in some games. Like I said, they still by-and-large used lower colour depths to preserve VRAM; and with the PS2's measly 4MB of VRAM, I cannot think of a single PS2 game that actually runs in hi-colour mode.>i don't believe PCs were ever intended to be used on a televisionDude, desktop monitors had composite support back in the 80's.https://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2023/03/list-of-ibm-composite-artifact-color.html
>>106756707soul>>106758493soulless
>>106765862"Soulless" is what it would've actually looked like back in the day lol
>>106765877I know, I still have a couple working CRT monitors laying around. I don't agree with most of the thread, I think seeing the individual pixels of old games gives it extra charm.
>>106765843the ps2 can do 24bit colour, so 16bit is already lower depth. does the ps2 support less than 16bit colour? i haven't checked that.>artifact colourright, i had forgotten about that. fair enough. that stopped being a thing with VGA though. i was mainly thinking of '90s DOS games, being too young for the earlier stuff
>>106755637>muh soulmotha fucka please
>>106763500>time
>>106765928>the ps2 can do 24bit colourYes, it can, but the vast majority of PS2 games still run in a lower colour depth.
>>106765948
>>106765953
>>106765958
>>106765963Pic related is one of the only PS2 games I could find that runs in a higher colour depth.
>>106761318There were a number of CRT developments that had not made it into production in the early 2000s, as CRTs had died by that point. Nowadays, transmission and scanning electron microscopes use far stronger electron gun designs with very high beam current output and super sharp focus using massive electrostatic lenses. X-Ray machines in hospitals use electron guns too, there is still lots of R&D into those. In terms of the deflection circuitry, with modern SiC MOSFETs used as HOTs, 250KHz horizontal scanning rate would be possible. Even in 2001, there were IIyima monitors made that could run at 700Hz vertical refresh rate. It has taken OLED and LCD many years to reach 500Hz. Given the improved cathode lifetimes of modern gun designs, >400nits luminance output would be possible too.
>>106765971Along with this one
>>106765979Plus Code Veronica
>>106765986Spawn also seems to use high-colour
>>106765990And Syphon Filter
>>106765997But we're back to low-colour with Outrun 2006!
>>106766006This pool game uses low colour
>>106766014And THPS4 isn't the exception; other Tony Hawks run in low-colour mode too.
>>106756699Dithering doesn't have to blend to be usefulLook at the floor without and with dithering here
>>106766076Right, but if you CAN blend it, why not?
>>106766084The point is that with limited colors it still makes things look better even without blending
>>106765973>CRTs had died by that pointCRTs were the dominant television until like 2010
>>106766092If your example is a photograph I guess, but the original point of the discussion was arcade games. The games built for RGB were the ones that had no dithering at all in their artwork, whereas the ones built for eventual home console ports used dithering all throughout their artwork.
>>106766157Plenty of arcade titles had some dithering
>>106766171Right, and those ones were made with the intention of being ported to home consoles.
>>106766184Cope.
>>106766195The exception would be if the arcade system was simply incapable of transparency effects (consider the empty bits of the health bar), but look at something like Metal Slug and you'll see its artwork was overwhelmingly built to avoid dithering.
>>106766210You can do better than dithering if you aren’t lazy, which is what was done for Metal Slug. Sand in this game does use dithering (or, at least, looks more like it is dithered)
>>106766303>Sand in this game does use ditheringWell they are literal grains of sand; they better be grainy!
>>106760812Thank goodness. Total CRT Death.
>>106761226>The disadvantages of a CRT with none of the advantagesAre these guys fucking retarded?
>>106761226this shit isn't actually crt so what's the fucking point? hate this "actually new but look old" faggot basedboy thing so much
>>106766184practically all of them do, and many arcade games were never intended for a home release. and that's still not considering all the VGA DOS games that used dithering and were never intended for viewing on a TV
goy cow, getting milked for the last shekle, price manipulation has always been their game. not gonna play
>>106760963PVM is apature grille, arcade is slot maskVery different
>>106766434crts are fun and cheap
>>106766395the main draw is it's got tons of inputs and can handle modes from any weird old system you have. basically it's an lcd monitor with a retrotink built ini'll wait until we have oled monitors with that new crt shader built in with super high refresh rate. something like that could actually give crts a run for their money (no pun intended)
>>106767786But it looks like fucking shit. I could see it as a good gimmick if they were doing something like the anal log pocket and auto adjusting the shader based on what you had hooked up, with like a 4k+ display for reasonable subpixel emulation. Instead it's just... not as good as using a regular LCD and emulating?
>>106767786>crt shaderi hate zoomers so fucking much
>crtroonsWhat's the ratio of "retarded nostalgia addicts who only like it because it's like their heckin childhood which was the only time they were ever happy and they think it has to do with the cathode ray tube and not the fact they weren't miserable failures yet" to "retarded kid who grew up after CRTs were discontinued and think they'll get cool points and retro cred for liking obsolete garbage" here?
CRTs are still the superior display technology for games due to their unparalleled motion handling combined with near-OLED picture quality (on high end PC monitors). Anyone dismissing CRTs as "nostalgiafagging" etc are just arguing against strawmans, completely oblivious to the fact their "gaming" displays can't display motion correctly.
>>106760812Maybe someday an eccentric billionaire who's into retro gaming (like Palmer Luckey) will build a new CRT factory just for the hell of it. Right now he only has $2 billion, but if his net worth continues to grow and he amasses hundreds of billions some day, I could easily see it happening. He did make that modern gameboy clone with an extremely autistic attention to detail in its design.>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmA20GTr8XI
>>106769494Meant to say $3 billion, not 2.
>>106760812>i'm sorry sweaty things can't improve, it's just the way things are, it's progress
>>106767786yeah cool but how about an actual brand new crt with modern day input connectors instead? like if I'm buying some vintage screen that shit goes directly to my pc for emulation and this thing right here is some kind of garbage for spergs who prefer genuine hardware but are too retarded to just plug it into a real crt? I just don't get it, it's so niche I hope whoever came up with it goes bankrupt and starves
>>106769389>delusional rambling>muh amd unboxed muh blog>>106769494Nobody is going to create the entire infrastructure and supply chain necessary for obsolete garbage cathode ray tube displays just because a handful of autistic retards cry for it.
>>106768324i'm not a zoomerif you aren't familiar, i'm talking about this: https://blurbusters.com/crt-simulation-in-a-gpu-shader-looks-better-than-bfi/
>>106766361It's not as heavy and doesn't have the same power consumption of a CRT, but it does have one advantage, and that is looking kind of cool and not being ugly and flat. Also a decent aspect ratio, and the space behind it is actually used for something. It's not empty space. It's really just meant to be an LCD that looks more at home among that era of hardware since CRTs are getting scarce. Better than putting an ugly 16:9 thing on top of your amiga.I'd get one but they're actually expensive anyway at such a price point where I'd just be able to buy a decent CRT anyway though lol. But props to the guy for making it.>>106770057are you retarded dude do you know how impossible it is right now to have a "brand new crt"
>>106769494I think it'd have to be done using small scale manufacturing. Then maybe it's actually possible.
>>106767139>Very differentThat's not a very convincing explanation. Explain *why* the PVM being an aperture grille is such a sin. Because spoiler: it isn't.
>>106755637I thought the point of CRTs was the refresh rate.
>>106760888CRTs are good for good motion clarity in places where they're not boutique itens yet.You're probably better off using a good display that can do this properly:https://blurbusters.com/crt-simulation-in-a-gpu-shader-looks-better-than-bfi/
>>106772279There's more diversity among CRTs than there is among LCDs. There are many different types of CRTs and all of them have their own reasons to be used even today. People constantly get PC monitor enthusiasts mixed up with bing bing wahoo retroomers for example, our use cases and reasons for CRTs couldn't be more different.But when it comes to refresh rate, the draw is kind of the opposite with CRTs; they can display low refresh rate content better than any other technology. Linear 60fps motion looks smoother on a CRT than 360fps motion looks on an OLED. But PC monitors can absolutely do high refresh rates, I have a tube that does 200hz.
>>106772280>You're probably better off using a good display that can do this properly:No such displays exist.
>>106773242Even it's not perfect, being significantly better than regular LCD slop is pretty good.
>>106769389
>>106774501It does make trails on black to white specifically, but the average motion is a lot better.
>>106755637So what if you took one of those 4K miniLED displays for VR and back-projected it onto a curved piece of glass?
>>106774668Feel free to implement my million dollar idea BTW I cannot be bothered to make a hobby out of that shitttt
>>106774689The only obstacle i see for that is how strong is the miniLED display.I don't know but need to be pretty strong to work.
>>106773386Isn't motion clarity basically solved on OLEDs?
>>106774714Not completely, but it's closer
>>106774709I meant microLED. The nits on those displays tend to be very high, but because the brightness will diffuse over distance it will probably seem dim without intervention.Without an illuminating lamp, which will kill contrast, or phosphors which seem out of reach for the average garage dweller, the idea is probably somewhat impractical.
>>106774735I did a quick google and i think your plan would work:https://www.notebookcheck.net/Jade-Bird-Display-boosts-MicroLED-brightness-beyond-1-million-nits.758491.0.htmlCRTs are like 200-300 nits
reminder that people gladly paid SEVERAL TIMES MORE for the first generation of 17" 1024*768 60hz TN CCFL backlit LCD monitors over muh CRTs.
>>106774760MicroLED is actually a variety of technologies; yours refers to a series of discrete LEDs robotically placed onto a PCB. Those tend to be rather bright, but also extremely large and expensive.The ones I'm referring to are like this https://www.uploadvr.com/lg-next-generation-micro-oled-display-vr/made using photolithography processes. They are extremely high resolution but also very small. While they claim 10,000 raw nits I bet once projected onto a 16" display it would end up being rather dim. Actually you can just do basic multiplication to see how much luminosity you'd lose by scaling the VR display up.
>>106769389>at 60hzYes, let's ignore how high refresh rate monitors exist and that the difference is imperceptible to the human eye on theseLet's also ignore how CRTs have shit blacks and are covered with reflections the moment you're not using them in a completely pitch black room
>>106774947>and that the difference is imperceptible to the human eye on theseSpoken like someone who has never seen a CRT
>>106761111I just want to go the time and place this photo was taken, lie down on the carpet, and then die
>>106775059I'm 34, I've seen plenty of CRTsI do not miss them
>>10677506915 years ago last time?
>>106775083>60hz again>ignoring high refresh rate monitors again
>>106775109Not an argument
>>106775109Okay, but what if I want 60Hz?
>>106775109not even my high end GPU can do high fps in new games
>>106755637Perfect man. How many tvl is it?
>>106755637My Olympus oev143 is busted. It has vertical collapse. I've posted about my pvm in the past and afew helpful anons linked me to some crt repair guides but I lost those. If worked for one day after I bought it home. The image was glorious for a couple hours
>>106765973I would fucking love to see a modern day CRT but it would be some sort of DRM infested "smart" TV that spies on you and bricks itself 2 minutes after it's out of warranty
These CRT threads might get a little more love over on retro games /vr/ People over there actually like this stuff.
You're not going to see modern CRTs. Literally noone still produces the tubes, the technology and know-how is lost, essentially. Maybe if you had a couple of millions of $ to burn, you could somehow assemble a team of people who used to make CRTs and slap together a new batch, but you probably wouldn't make a profit.
>>106755637Imagine being so poor your biggest argument for CRTs are curve screens. I have only used flat Trinitrons before LCDs.
>>106776766 #People like me prefer curved screen for 2D games and side scrollers. Curved screens have better geometry as its easier for the ray gun to scan on the curved screen.. Many flat screen have a wavy distortion affect on 2D games around the corners.I have one flat screen RCA TV though. I never use it but the tube is nice and bright. It needs some focus adjustments and purification. I played some xeno crisis on it and it was alright.
>>106770882But it will cost >1000$Scale manufactoring is what made them cheaper
>>106776758I put a lot of effort into researching this. I believe I could build a small black and white CRT for around $100K and a color one for maybe $200K. The problem is this is only prototype quality and it will need millions more in R&D to get an actual product. And even then, the product will be worse quality and more expensive than a good refurbished CRT. There's no business case even with the prices retro gamers are paying.
>>106774714Not even close. OLEDs have almost the same motion blur as LCDs.Except LCDs can be backlight strobed with very bright LEDs, while OLEDs can't create a flash bright enough to keep frame persistence anywhere below 1ms.So a ULMB LCD can have way superior motion handling than a BFI OLED.
>>106774501>Never had something so clearly btfo crt such as thisabsolute bloodbath
