>>107021625
That's how most people are, they want to wing it unless winging it means actual danger. like you don't want to wing something were you could lose an arm for example.

>>107021625
does it happen a lot that someone who wants to make video games ends up in a course on algorithms where you are from?

Biz developer here with 20 years experience. The only thing you will ever use from a CS degree is basic programming language syntax.

>this looks easy to make!
>turns out its not
classic rookie mistake

Nah, and I looked down on everyone who didn't already knew how to program before they enrolled.

>>107022891
my point is this: how many aspiring video game developers turn to a CS degree? maybe there are tons i've never heard of

>>107022919
Nta but I'm from Germany, the job opportunities with a CS degree are still much better, even for very mundane programming jobs. I've never actually had a colleague who was self taught, or from a bootcamp etc.
Also uni is free (paid from taxes) so many just go.

>>107021625
college is fake and gay, execute all professors

>>107021625
College isn't job training
Bizniggers normalized outsourcing job training to college
This is the problem

>>107021625
Nah, that's how I tried learning the first time, reading lots of theory
how it stuck was just diving into it and tackling each challenge as it appeared

>>107023007
same. I could program a game if I wasn't lazy

>>107022992
>Bizniggers normalized outsourcing job training to college
griggs v duke power co mandated that

>>107021625
I was mainly annoyed that we had a semester of physics. There were some other subjects that I think weren't all that practically useful, but I was on the more theoretical oriented course rather than the more practical one (didn't know going in).
I can't talk too much shit since I didn't make it anyway.

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Now what desu? I should use mccluckskey because karnaugh only goes up to 4 right? What calculator should I use and what do I type in or is it fine for me to just give this to AI and make the combinatorial circuit from the simplified boolean equation it gives me?

>f = not D

You could have just told me that.

>>107022891
I have actually had the difference in endianness of a message make a difference in me understanding what was going on at the interface.
You never know exactly when you'll need the more advanced knowledge, but when you do you REALLY need it.

>>107021625
Yes. To both.

>>107023762
I used gradient descent a lot. Really I used a lot of uni stuff, but basic programming is still the main part of the job.

>>107022891
I've used a few of the algorithms I learned in school.

>>107023762
Just give your problem to ChatGPT and it'll solve it for you.

>>107022891
I had to implement merge sort from zero once
>t. Worked as a VBA developer

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That's pretty good right? I just want to make video games and finally move out of the basement. I hope we don't run out of AI liquid.

>>107022919
This was a thing up to the early 00s, but you'd have to be a special kind of retard doing it in the age of big middleware.

wont taking a cs degree make you more money than gayming? assuming youre designing hardware people are buying cpus/gpus that cost a small small fortune even corporations are dumping tons into it

>>107022919
A lot of my classmates are seeking game development jobs and are getting a CS degree.
I'm amazed that they do it though, since game development has to be the worst part of the already historically bad job market.

>>107021625
Retard
>so true
Midwit
>lmao gaymen, i totally am interested in theory n shit
Enlightened
>so true

>>107022913
Many things actually are easy to make, but formal education obfuscates and overcomplicates them.

>>107024772
>I just want to make video games
midwit
>I want to be able to reason about computers mathematically
retard, enlightened
insane how even vaunted game devs who legitimately aren't midwits like id software and the famous FFT were just reinventing the wheel on that one and the same implementation already existed in many other places in scientific computing and engineering software. Software development is just the art of wasting peoples time reinventing the wheel because everyone is too lazy or too dumb to actually study anything to any depth.

I was like this so I switched from Computer Science to Software Engineering and now I make video games. And no they don't run like shit because I didn't cheat in data structures and algorithms.

>>107021625
I actually think the math of computer science is very fun.
I started (and failed) electrical engineering in the past and my university councilor warned me that if my math wasn't that good in EE I shouldn't choose CS as it's massively more math heavy.
Instead I love it, because it's taught from first principles - I finally understand where shit comes from and why.
Most of these problems that sound annoying and convoluted like in OP pic is just because you didn't actually understand the question, but once you sit down to understand what is being asked it'll make a lot more sense.

>>107026556
One of my favorite topics was groups, rings and fields in the first math semester.
My university recorded the lectures and I sometimes rewatch the for nostalgia.

>>107026601
In EE we never learned about the basics, so it was all mostly application. I didn't learn it with any depth either, just enough to pass the exam.
Came to majorly bite me in the ass later when I realized I didn't know what the fuck I was actually doing.

>>107026482
>duuuude everything has already been discovered
typical midwit excuse for never shipping anything

>>107026556
>I actually think the math of computer science is very fun.
I remember going through that phase, lol.

>>107026556
are you going to love the part where you paid to study something that wont net a job?

>>107027708
inb4 i chose to

>>107026639
Why would an EE need to know the foundations of CS? Just program the microcontroller.

>>107027708
I'll not have problems finding a job, I'm european. Pay will be ass compared to the US and if all fails and I get desperate I'll have to take a rather unfulfilling job where I have to maintain some ancient tech stack for a company that doesn't care about me as long as everything stays as it is, but at least I'll be able to put food on the table and not have to worry about rent.
Sure I won't be ever be a SF techbro but that's not my lifestyle anyways.
>>107027830
When I said the basics I meant the basics of maths, not of CS. Essentially EE maths at my university was very "here's the rules and here's how you apply them". In CS it's a lot more starting at first principles and building everything up from your axioms and a few logical rules. That second approach suits me a lot more.
>Just program the microcontroller
Programming the microcontroller is the least complex part of it, I focused on control circuitry and most of the work is the modeling part.
Then again in most applications in CS I'd argue that the actual coding is usually not the hardest part either, it's the modeling, specification, software structure etc. Writing the code is just translating the mathematical model into a format the machine can understand.

>>107027643
>just SHIP LE PRODUCT
typical midwit approach to making anything. At face value you would claim engineers do the same but the difference is software isn't engineering and most engineering fields don't outright expect you to deliver slop work. That's also not what the post was about. Even the smartest game devs are still laggards and clueless. People pay billions for vibe coded slop financial results is quite literally no indicator of quality or ingenuity. The tired meme you are forcing is that people who just care about doing the thing get it done. The reality you miss is that it's largely unimportant, trivial, and all of the hard parts done and handed to you by actually smart people who thought about all the deeper problems decades prior but mongoloids like you come along and spend 0 time doing anything devshit your own solution to half of those problems and wonder why you produce jeetware. You are brown. No longer reply to me.
>>107027830
Handle concurrency and resource sharing with your unstudied ways and see if you can write anything worth a fuck, faggot.

>>107021625
No. I like that part.

>>107029646
>most engineering fields don't outright expect you to deliver slop work
Every other field has no tolerance for shit workmanship. Literally only software gets away with pushing complete slop out the door and that's because the end user cannot see the code. In no other profession is the standard of quality "fuck it, that'll do."

>>107029718
There's a reason engineering has professional licenses and I wholly agree with those accrediting bodies going after Microshit and Google and whatnot for calling all their positions "software engineer" "devops engineer" "automation script monkey server engineer" because none of it is engineering.

>>107021625
No, I was the opposite.
When I started my college degree for ComSci back in 2010, I took it at face value that I had to know the basics to understand how to apply it to the technology or programming language used to program a video game. As my study progressed I started to love programming for solving general problems and making applications and just stopped caring about getting into video game development.

>>107029767
What's crazy to me is that mech guys gotta learn stuff like ordinary and partial differential equations so they can understand the Navier Stokes equations and Fourier's heat equation all just so they end up working on designing literal shit-handling equipment and electric blankets, while Indian brogrammers can just work on the next Grindr-like dating app for gay men and trannies and then make millions without having to know the delta-epsilon definition of a limit.

>>107029837
Any industry that involves tangible parts and processes has this problem. Even in the peak of mech, say aerospace or vehicle design, where you have to actually understand heat and mass transfer because it is a part of your job your industry doesn't have the near zero overhead of Jeet dikkshits chatgpt coded grindr app and so you will probably be paid about the same despite mogging nearly every living programmer jeet or not.

>>107029837
>Indian brogrammers
The fuck you on about, the poos aren't the one doing startup shit they are the ones that comes in after the startup gets bought out by the bigger industry and then get staffed by the poos to maintain it and make it shit like everything else they have ever infested because the shit corpro fags need to save a penny.

>>107026556
> I love it, because it's taught from first principles - I finally understand where shit comes from and why.
Gotta agree with you there, anon. I'm a healthcare fag that's learning C++ and despite having failed miserably to learn python and Lua in the past, I actually find C++ easier. Understanding low level stuff like how memory is physically organised makes it easy to understand the difference between data types for example. I actually assumed that it was *normal* to have a deep low-level understanding of CS until I started reading and watching more things on the topic, only to realise the opposite.

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Thus, for any nondeterministic academia nigger we can devise an algorithm to suck my infinite dick in exponential time (the constant factor is like 10^9001 but you drop it like the faggots you are).

>>107021625
Yeah, that shit's too abstract to ever be optimal, so it's pretty much worthless.

>>107030081
>despite having failed miserably to learn python and Lua in the past, I actually find C++ easier
I get what you're saying, I also started with python (taught in school on a very basic level). I managed to "learn" it in that I could solve simple problems with it, but the lack of understanding of how things actually worked or what data types were under the hood made it so my code was atrocious and my understanding was zero.
It's like building a house but not starting with the foundation, it's a bad idea.
>I actually assumed that it was *normal* to have a deep low-level understanding of CS until I started reading and watching more things on the topic, only to realise the opposite.
On the bright side, if you go the route of understanding those lower level aspects better then that's your specialty and what makes you stand out. There's a horde of "learn to code" people willing to work for atrocious conditions (often because they come from poor countries so anything's an upgrade), best not to have to compete with those, it's a race to the bottom.

>>107029767
Programming is not like "other branches of engineering" and every attempt at treating it as such have ended in disaster.

Therefore, whatever "real engineering" does is irrelevant to the discipline of software development.

>>107029646
This post is longer than the most complex software you've ever written.

>>107029718
Wait till you work in healthcare.

>>107027830
Why do you expect academics to actually make anything?

>>107021625
The complete opposite actually so I switched majors to math.

What you need for video games is stuff like quaternions, cross and dot products, plus IEEE-754 plus actually understanding sRGB so that retards would stop adding or averaging gamma-compressed values together. Big word computer "science" faggotry isn't needed.

>>107023762
>advanced knowledge
>being aware of endianness
lmao

>>107021625
this was me 10 years ago. I dropped out and got a dev job by simply applying for a job instead of going through years of bullshit math lol

I work in bioinformatics R&D and would be hopelessly lost without fairly advanced maths.

>>107021625
If your one goal is to "make video gaymes" then you could watch a few YouTube tutorials for Unity or w/e to get started. How you go from there will determine if you give enough of a fuck to learn whatever the hell that guy is saying.

>>107031787
>why should we hire you without a degree?

>>107031893
I didn't say it'll get you a job. What I am saying that actually trying to make stuff will help you figure out how interested you are in this field.

>>107027944
>>I'll not have problems finding a job, I'm european.
lol.
a euro friend of mine watched his whole team get outsourced to jeets

>>107032124
You're misunderstanding what I am saying anon.
It's not that you don't have to afraid of getting laid off or can get a nice 6 figure job out of school, it's that there's enough "shitter" jobs that you can take if you swallow your pride and need to keep the lights on.
Your friend may not consider them because he feels they are below him, but they exist in many european countries with still a shortage of such workers.
In a way we're protected by the US in that way, as all the jeets (understandably) see that they'll get more cash in the US for the same programming job than in europe, so they flood you guys' markets first.

>>107033441
i don't get the point. there's shortages for low skill jobs everywhere. america has them too. they pay more than in europe. the issue with shittier jobs in both usa and europe is that they are hard work and earn you a quality of life no different than living on welfare. this goes doubly for a lot of european countries. you have to make top 2% income (like he does) to enjoy a quality of life better than welfare. whereas driving trucks for ups makes more than most skilled labor in europe.
given that you don't care that you are wasting your time, i take it your education is 'free'

theres basically no getting ahead in europe anyway so your decision makes sense

>>107033648
We won't be able to see eye to eye on this anon, because you're fundamentally in a US-centric point of mind and I highly doubt I'm capable of articulating what you'd have to change to understand a more EU-centric point.
We have inherently different views of what makes a good life and what makes us happy and that's okay.

Even though I think it's futile, let me attempt to explain anyways:
In the US, money is the primary and central thing you care about, at least in mainstream culture. The quality of a job is expressed in the amount you earn. The quality of your life is rarely discussed, how much money you have or how big your house is, or what car you drive are instead the usual proxies used to communicate happiness.
Most political discourse is around the economic impact of something, if it'll hurt or help the economy.
Where I live, this is far less of a topic. Obviously being poor sucks and everyone wants a base level of money to not have to worry about bills and go on vacation occasionally, but the focus doesn't lie solely on money. More people are willing to take a less high paying job because it offers more benefits, more free time, a better work environment and commute, and more social development. If I ask someone what they want from life I'll rarely get an answer that's money adjacent. When asking how the quality of someone's life is I'll get answers about friends, how often they celebrate or family.
Maybe I'm super mischaracterizing the US as I only know online discourse of course, but I feel like americans have a massive consumerist and monetary focus in their entire worldview that I don't share and, if I'm being honest here, feels immensely ghoulish and soul sucking to me.

Look at your example, the only value to a job you're describing is pay. When talking online with americans all they talk about is GDP.
But cost of living matters. Social fabric matters. Free time matters. Money is a shit vector to measure quality of life essentially
(cont)

I want to produce non-functional video games designed to frustrate and, hopefully, infuriate the player into a mouth-foaming frenzy. Then fund an extensive advertisement campaign blaming that frustration on the players, and shaming them for having no skills.

>>107022992
The relationship between education being general education or more job centered is something I reflect on a bit.
On one side you want something relevant for the job market and spending a lot of time on things you won't be using is frustrating and not motivating at all, on the other general knowledge is good for general development as a society.

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>>107033754
(cont)
I perceive many lives in the US as a spiritual hellhole where there's barely any community, you can't even walk around in the neighborhood, you don't know anyone except your directly adjacent neighbors (unless you have a HOA to fuck you in the ass kek) you are essentially the ultimate individual. That affords you to do whatever the fuck you want, the ultimate individualism, but it also means you'll be alone doing so a lot of the time.
All that to say that even your post feels spiritually vapid to me, it's the extreme of consumption idolatry and I feel like it's a bad way to live life (but who am I to judge you - frankly my opinion shouldn't matter to you here). Sorry if this sounds accusatory, I don't know how to express it without seeming needlessly abrasive.

It's that meme of the guy wearing a nice outfit sitting in a european cafe in a beautiful historic city drinking a coffee at 9 AM on a workday.
That man makes more than a order of magnitude less than the SF techbro, yet he's richer than that techbro ever will be.


Also this is just a sidenote: I'm assuming you're just exaggerating for comedic effect, but
>you have to make top 2% income (like he does) to enjoy a quality of life better than welfare
is entirely wrong and so far off from the truth that it's barely worth addressing. In the offchance it's not an exaggeration for comedic effect I'd really urge you to reconsider how you get your information, if this is a broader issue you're living in a fantasy world removed from reality.

>>107022919
>how many aspiring video game developers turn to a CS degree?
*laughs while balls deep in Toby Fox*

You don't need a CS degree now a days since the CS degree boffins are making Jeetware (Unreal Engine which blows ass now a days) for you to use.

Unless you're going to program your own engine, game development now is "use PoorlyRunning Engine 5 [formerly: Unreal Engine 5], Maya/Blender [Blender is the standard], and hire an artist if needed. Tadah! Game making time!"

CS degree havers are for enterprise banking software.

>>107033754
there is some degree of truth to what you are saying. the decay of values, community and such is not limited to the US though, everywhere in the west is experiencing this. you could even say that americans are more stressed and work too hard.
have you worked before? i suspect your opinion will change when you see what you end up with at the end of the month, and then compare that to someone riding welfare. even in america people on welfare enjoy a quality of life that's barely different than someone making median income. even if you have an "easy job" you want to end up with more than someone who, often, chooses not to work. this is not true in many places. in some places in the US, there is some possibility of outpacing this. where i live, a single mother gets about the equivalent of 80k a year in benefits. the median household income here is about 70k a year.

>>107034294
>the decay of values, community and such is not limited to the US though, everywhere in the west is experiencing this
That's true, sad as it is, yeah. I'm under no illusion that we aren't just heading where the US already is here too.
>have you worked before?
Yes. Though I suppose always with the implicit understanding that "I am doing this temporarily" so I was a lot more willing to put up with bullshit. I can imagine if you have that thought of "this is all I will ever be" that it hits a lot different.
>even if you have an "easy job" you want to end up with more than someone who, often, chooses not to work
You only get welfare here for a short time unless you prove you are earnestly trying to find employment and the longer you go without the more it turns into a humiliation ritual where you have to prove more and more ridiculous things. It's humiliating by design, meant to bully you into employment. There's a sort of "we won't let you die" safety net if you don't get employment eventually, but it's not fun existing on that and even working part time at minimum wage will put you ahead of that.
>where i live, a single mother gets about the equivalent of 80k a year in benefits
That's a good example, the only outlier to that rule I have seen with people actually doing (I'd say unreasonably) well with welfare is loopholes with specific "medical conditions" and/or child benefits (often both for maximum leeching). __especially__ if they are willing to neglect their kids and use money meant for them for themselves.
I could never live like that, I'd rather kill myself than be a deadbeat parent leeching of my own kids, but they do unfortunately exist.

>>107033754
>>107033851
I hate to be a party pooper here, but the main reason our salaries here are so low is because the taxes are way higher. This combined with far too much regulations inventivizes mediocrity, stagnation and causes a lot of our go getters to leave for America.

Since this is a tech thread, the best way to get a high salary as a developer in my country is to become an independent contractor so you can game the tax system as much as possible while still basically being an employee. Lots of people do this, but it leaves you with less job security. I might do this in a few decades.
>>107034294
Similar problems here, if you know how to game the system you can effectively live on the dole you whole life.

>>107034695
> It's humiliating by design, meant to bully you into employment. There's a sort of "we won't let you die" safety net if you don't get employment eventually, but it's not fun existing on that and even working part time at minimum wage will put you ahead of that.
Trust me, there are plenty of people willing to jump through every humiliating hoop as long as they don't have to work. A lot of their social circle consists of other welfare recipients so they feel zero shame about what they are doing. I'm talking multi-generational unemployment. Grandparents on the dole, parents on the dole, grandkids on the dole. Working does not enter their consideration, they believe the state owes them money and housing and get very belligerent if they don't get this.

>>107034849
That's possible, I've never met such a person, probably because I highly doubt I'd want to associate with such people, but I'm not doubting they exist.
They don't factor in to how happy or unhappy I am with what I have though and I believe these people are punished by their own decisions, that sounds like a miserable existence.
>>107034756
I don't think I agree on your taxes take (not the fact that they are higher, that parts is just plain true), but I do agree that we have a major issue with regulations, particularly in tech. It's just not a great environment to found a company or innovate.
>I might do this in a few decades.
Wishing you the best with it anon, put some money aside for emergencies in the meantime, and I hope it works out well for you.

>>107021625
The only thing you need to know is like the basic algos like sliding window etc. and run time characterization like big O. Everything else is niche or rarely used.

>>107033866
This is mostly true. There are some game dev jobs which require a lot of CS knowledge, but people don't want to do those.
People who are actually passionate about making games just make the fucking games. You don't need to be a good programmer to make good games.

>>107031619
insane seethe, I've written modelling software from scratch due to IP rules and my job isn't even devshitting. Good engineers and researchers can always program pretty well. Good programmers on the other hand can almost never into theory or concepts that would elevate their codemonkey work to some level of sapience. Dilate devtranny.

>>107031614
that's my point. Devshitters are retarded, have failed to adapt anything useful in practice from well established non shitter fields and have also largely failed to establish any good common working practices individually. Devshitting is not remotely engineering

>>107022863
if happens more often if you're a good student because more prestigious schools justify their reputation by having harder classes for no reason at all

If you just wanted to learn to program video games wouldn't you have gotten one of the many books that do that, joined one of the many game programming communities online or got an internship as a programmer at a game studio?
If after all that you still aren't satisfied and you want to make brand new games then you might decide going to school is worth it and you can actually effectively research the classes you need
>>107022891
I wish lmao

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>>107021625
Considering that the majority of big indie games (especially Undertale) were all made by nocoders, he's right.

People who want to make videogames should focus on arts instead. With Ren'Py, RPGMaker, Game Maker and all the frameworks the real bottleneck is not learning to code, it's being able to make the graphics, music and story.

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>>107022945
But it requires Abitur, which presupposes not being an low IQ retard NEET school dropout. So for my ilk the only choice is to be self-studied.

>>107036583
You're bragging about the fact that you allegedly actually write code, have a cookie.

>>107036583
I actually agree with you, the mentality of quick fixes in programming is an absolute disaster.

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>>107023452
>>107024049
play with minecraft or logisim, or if you are really brave, find another game where combonational logic can be built

>>107022945
That's because Germany is jeetified and only cares that you have the paper that says what you can do, regardless of how well you can actually do the job. Germans and pajeets are obsessed with certifications and degrees despite degrees having nothing to do with the actual job of writing software.

>>107031690
did you graduate? i'm currently in compsci and contemplating whether i should stay or switch to pure math, but the biggest hurdle is in job prospects. do math majors get as many opportunities as a compsci graduate would? and also, with programming i can apply all the cool math i learn and see what's it's doing in real time.

>>107044053
A quick fix thst exists is better than the slow fix that never comes.

>>107021625
I did the lmao CS thing cause of gamedev, but was doing gamedev (more like enginedev stuff) in my free time anyways. I got bored of gamedev halfway thru my degree. its sort of cool but also pretty childish desu.
i switched majors to civil engineering and am working thru that now, I want to do stuff that matters in the real world.