.
>>107212764what kind of mentally ill person would design a notation and be like>yep the user will type " " " " and : : : 9000 times, this is so convenient
troon
>>107212788i think it's fine as a machine format that happens to be human-readable/writable. but if your primary goal is to make it easy to manually write then other options are better
NIGGA YOU JUST REINVENTED CSV NIGGA
>>107212764Toon is just csv. It's better to use the Token Usage Reduction Data Structure
>>107212764I hate human readability desu.
>>107212764deprecated by alists
change [3] to [4] and wonder what the point is
>>107212788They were analogously reasoning from popular programming language topics circa the 60s. Later we discovered the hidden costs of OOP.
>>107212764Not even close, json excels at unstructured data while this shit clearly has a structure.
>>107212788Your first mistake was assuming that "users" would type any of this... or developers, for that matter. It's not meant to be written by humans, it's meant for computers.
>>107213035it's reasonable for a text format to be comfortable for humans to write
>>107212764You do realize that there are many use cases where different nodes in json would have different fields
>>107213066dynamic typing was a mistake
>>107212835Lmao
>>107212764>whitespace for syntax
>>107212764What is this bullshit?Just do a CSV.
>>107213252relax
nevermind, it's actually worse than a CSV, because whenever you add a line you have to update the products[3] counter
>>107212856>Token Usage Reduction Data StructureTURDS for short
I always found YAML the best format
>>107212789my first thought
>>107212764>products[3]dropped
>>107213279You're not supposed to manually edit it.I think it's largely about reducing bytes required to store/transmit the same data.
>>107213832It's intended to be used by LLMs, as it requires less tokens.
>>107212764What does duolingo have to do with any of these?
>>107212764>take out the newlines from json>now 100 tokenswow
>>107212788json is for machines.
>>107212764>>107212788json is fine, it's a tree-like structure object, good for the language for easy parsing since it's just javascript's objectbut it's bad for humans who have to write it
>>107214534you're not supposed to write json as a humanyou're supposed to use something like yaml
>>107214542exactly my point, you write json by generating it inside the codeit's supposed to be a representation of an object
>>107212764Now show a 3d array.
>>107212764.
>>107212764>CR as item separator>cannot use custom object structure in array itemsDOA.>>107212789kek>>107212904Having the array length baked in will tell you for how long it needs to loop into its items, if only there was a "end of array" character though, it would save some space.>>107213832>>107214454JSON is for humans.You should save and transmit objects in bytecode to save a ton of space, bandwidth and execution time.>>107213852If LLMs were able to read bytecode this would not be a problem, oh wait, they can.
>>107212764nothing will beat s-expression. mit people already had figured everything out in the 50's
>>107214786>Having the array length baked in will tell you for how long it needs to loop into its itemsit really only complicates things, because the stated length of the array may not agree with the real length of the array. that's two extra situations you need to account for (or just crash) when you loop over the items.
>>107214542If yaml is so good, then why does kyaml look like json
What if I want some but not all products to have a field called "certifications"?
>>107212764>TROON
>>107215288yes, 12-year-old retard, we saw it the first two times
>>107214786>Having the array length baked in will tell you for how long it needs to loop into its itemsAnd it must be ignored for security.
>>107212764Is this language LL(1)?
>>107212788>he doesn't knowsomeone tell him
>>107212789
>>107212789/thread
>>107213267no. fuck kikethon, too
>>107212764I'm more of a jsonl person
>>107212764finally, a data format.Now I can finally make the high quality software I've been thinking of.
>>107214534It's not javascript object, there's a bunch of extra ".
>>107212764zoomer discovers CSV, calls it TROON
>>107212981Elaborate
>>107215667what's your problem?
>>107212764JSON is meant to be easily human readable. If you want to send information over the wire most efficiently then you'd use some sort of binary encoding or custom protocol for your application, you do not send it as text in the first place.
>>107214953>>107215365That is why I said>if only there was a "end of array" characterHinting that JSON does have exactly that.Don't know if you also noticed this but the array starts at 1, which is retarded for computers, arrays should start at 0.
>>107216322only a retard would say it's retarded for the nth item to reside at the nth index.
>>107216322>>107216576It doesn't matter where it starts, trusting program input to tell its own length is suicide.
>>107212764All the web stuff is made for convience, not performance.If you want efficiency then switch entirely to a binary format.
>>107216062>you accidentally put in a space somewhere>control flow changes entirely, no warnings or errors>you create temporary variables for a longer function call>that's not zen reeeeeeeeee>you inline all parameters>line too long reeeeeeeeeeeI fucking hate kikethon with every fiber of my being.
>>107212764So it's CSV but worst? lmao
>>107216021it's a javascript object with extra " so the parser can read correctly
>>107216322you're talking about array index, OP pic is array length
>>107212764T[R]OON
>>107212788i remember when JSON replaced XML because it was cleaner... lol
>>107212904idk what the point of the 3 even is, like it's already surrounded by [], why not just surround the whole array in [] to define how large it is? not only would it save the character 3 uses, it also avoids potential desyncs
>>107217121which it is>>107217160it stinks of a clueless webshitter who just wants to publish some pointless rubbish made with <3
>>107217121
>>107212764For me? It's a NULL-byte separated database, with no index
>>107217902This will never be used as it needs white space for it to work and some stored values trim off white space.
>>107218357*stored value fields.
>>107212764toon just looks like a csv
>>107218357I assume you are talking about DB serialization?
>>107217902James Kirk, 40Jean-Luc Picard,45Weasley Crusher, 7
>>107219135>threw data hierarchy out the window
>>107212764So it's just CSV with a mandatory header?
>>107212764>nested array of objects>becomes yamlstupidest format ever
>>107212789I LIKE TO TALK ABOUT TRANNIES
>>107212764>troon
ah so its json but without newlinesinteresting!
>>107219244probably works better for cases where the array can be written as a table without missing values (without the "pets" field in your example).but yeah it is pretty dumb how quickly it falls apart.
>>107219244lol this is dogshit
>>107212764That's just CSV with a better header
>>107219296literally stop posting
>>107212764What's the purpose of >[3]in the toon example? Seems redundant.
>>107212764Turns out this was made for AIcels who want to dump entire JSON files into an LLM, but run out of tokens doing so.Lol. LMAO even.
>>107220225It's likely for languages like C when parsing, so you can initialize the array to the correct size.
>>107212764dtdxmlxslt
>>107220225Yeah, it's DoA with that kind of crap, especially if it's meaning to be more human-friendly. What happens when they end up desynchronized? Does the whole thing crash? If the length int is longer than actual entries, do you make some empty ones? If the length is shorter, do you drop some? Which ones, from the beginning, from the end? Why have that redundancy in the first place?
This “TOON” crap is peak cargo-cult optimization.>b-b-but it saves 20% tokens!!yeah bro, on the 0.0001% of tokens that are actually JSON in a typical prompt. Congrats, you saved half a cent this decade. Meanwhile it throws out every useful thing JSON/TOML/YAML have: structure, tooling, escaping rules, nesting, sanity. It’s literally CSV with a hat. Try putting a comma in a string and watch the whole thing detonate.Have we learned nothing from the JS-minify-everything era? We spent a decade un-fucking that mess with sourcemaps and bundlers because people thought shaving 3kb off a file was “the future(tm)”Now we’re doing the same thing for LLM prompts.Pure brainrot.
>>107219282normal people aren't triggered by these kinds of comments
>>107213454what was our second thought?hint: n*gger
>>107212764>Totally Retarded Object Oriented Notationwhoah, it sure delivers!
>>107212764what is this ass thread about. pros have been using yaml for like 15 years now.
>>107212764OK, but what about if there is multiple laptops? JSON wins because it's OBJECT notation. Looking at "Toon" your ID's can't be unique?
>>107217121<employee name="James T. Kirk" age="40" />
<employee name="James T. Kirk" age="40" />
>>107222616terse, but a complete misappropriation of a markup format.
>>107222648using attributes is "misappropriation" how? will the employee ever have two ages? use your head.
>>107222701markup is for markup dumb retard.
>trannies reinventing serialization formatsWe need to get that 41% to 100%
What does this have to do with Duolingo?
So what if you write a wrong length on the header? Sounds like a really stupid idea
>>107213039not really, the whole point of this shit is to reduce the input size so you can squeeze more context up the AI's ass
>>107222648it might not be "pretty" by xml standards, but it's functionally equivalent in this case.
Man.. all the retards in this thread missing the point of this.It's literally made for sending data to LLMs to save on token count. That's it.>b-but what if you write the wrong length in the header!You won't you just encode your JSON into TOON before sending it to the AI. Why would you be manually writing TOON?
>>107212764What if products have 7 different child types at once? How do you write it in troon?
>>107222930Nothing, it is jus some shit that went viral in linkedin. I assume it has to do with "translating"
>>107220225loops with known bounds are fast to vectorize because you know the boundsit's an optimization
>>107212764how /g/ has fallena programmer will always prefer the first onethe second is zoomer normie shit
>>107212764IT'S JUST FUCKIN YAML BUT WORSE
we should transmission all our data as parquet
>>107212789op btfo spbp gg /thread
>>107212764>Surname, Name strings now impossibleNice format retard
>>107212764Why is the Duolingo owl there
>>107223217it would be quite a shame if someone fed the AI maliciously crafted toon files...
>>107212764>what is csv
>>107217121>JSON replaced XML because it was cleaner>cleaner>SOAP flashback damn i hated that shit
>>107212764That JSON is not identical.
>>107215595fuck nazis and not in the hot way.
>>107212764>CSVvibe coders really dont know how computers work
>>107213112Dynamic typing is allows for scalability.
bup
>>107221798Normal people don't constantly obsess over trannies. Normal people would see OP's image and just think 'oh, like a cartoon character'. You aren't normal, you're mentally ill.
>>107230322Which is why all the biggest software projects in the world use dynamic typing.
>>107212764Cool, now collapse it all into a single string.
>>107217121Conveniently ignored all XML bloat that makes this not a valid XML.
>>107226630>saves JSON to databaseWhat now?
>Toon Seems dumb, its just worse CSV. A problem I see is that type isn't clear. You are just stuck assuming everything is a string making parsing worse. I think that type should be clear. I would also be clear how to deal with commas within a string.
>>107232670SQL supports JSON but that's not what he said.
But XML is the best format for LLMs and showed the best benchmark results counting tokens is a midwit trap. if you're using a significant portion of your prompt on json format vs t(r)oon your'e doing it wrong and need to break up the data you are analyzing or process it
>>107212764what about CUE?
honestly i wonder if storing shit in sqlite is even better of an idea considering agents can directly query it and run all sort of complex logicright now with json i get them doing a lot of multiline python -c shit, i wouldnt' be surprised if it would be cleaner running queries, and instead of shitting up your project with a trillion json files it can shit up one sqlite file with a trillion tables
>>107226630his opinions are pretty goodbut him thinking storing big data in json is retarded, json is for small things that are easily parseable and human-writable, database is purely for machines
JSON just needs trailing commas and it would be perfect.
>>107212764>be me>have stream of objects>want to write json>{ "objects": [ >object arrives>{ ... },>end of stream>] }>want to write toon>objects[>store all objects in memory as they arrive>end of stream>have n objects>n]{sig}: ...retarded format
>>107212764this is a bait thread but how do you handle cases where values are of varying types, ie one the first one is an obect with 3 numbers and the second is an object with 2 numbers and 2 strings
>>107221775wow a very smart and actually thought out post on the matter on a very otherwise DUMB board for fucking retards its truly a wonder a sight to behold
>TROON>the fucking duolingo owlwhy is that there?
>>107235650It has no relationship. Somebody thought it was cute and it went viral in LinkedIn.
>>107233266u mean it not glitching out if you forget to remove the last one in an array?thats so fucking annoying and stupid yeah
>>107212764This makes sense except for the part where LLMs don't actually understand these two things are the same, so prompts that work on the left side will break for the right side.
>>107217160Using brackets for scope makes SAX-style parsers harder to implement well since you have to catch unterminated blocks and backtrack if you just don't reject the text outright.
>>107235975i don't really buy that, because it assumes a malformed input, which could just as well be the case for specifying the number elements. what if the number is wrong?
>>107212764niggas just reinvented csv lmfao
>>107212764why is data stored in the code? fucking fail
>>107212789My brain is so fucking rotted that I knew this comment woukd here in easily the first 5 replies and when I read it I fucking keked hard.
>>107212789FPBP OP lost>>107232449>you're mentally illThat would be you, sis
It's called Grammar.Json Grammar.YAML Grammar.TOML Grammar.You write in grammar.
For example this${sneed}This is a grammar rule for string interpolation technology in javascript.
${sneed}
>>107217121No, mostly because JavaScript won.
grammar notation invokes the execution of functionality
>>107220939>especially if it's meaning to be more human-friendlyDo you know what tokens are? It's obviously trying to be more LLM-friendly.
>>107235936>Javascript has trailing commas>JSON doesn'thuh
>>107226630INI is so simple you can parse it with scanf without any fancy tricks, and it's readable.
>>107212764great for when you have 150 entries and 85 columns
