Why is it that every piece of GNOME software ever produced. Is utter dogshit?
>>107566329Use case for dogshit?
but when it's wayland it's the end of the world kek
>>107566329because the GNOME project and GNOME Foundation include Jeremy Bicha, a serial child rapist who raped or molested at least 5 children over a period of years
>>107566329dbus has been a horrible standard since it was first pushed into userspace. If you're looking for a real system bus on UNIX platforms I suggest checking out the s6 suite and its system bus called skabus. It's far from ready for general purpose use but progress is being made and you can use it fine if you're willing to dive into the man pages for the s6 project. s6 is the best init/service manager on UNIX platforms at the moment. It's a shame it's not more widely used.There are a lot of things in Linux/*nix being done in userspace that should have been in the kernel. For example, everything to do with the GUI.
>>107566489Wayland un-ironically only ever got good only a few years ago. AKA when KDE and other desktops besides GNOME got involved.When it was only gnome they were like "nah you don't need this, you don't need that. Everything needs to be done over dbus/portals".Even today the only blockers on good protocols are GNOMEfags.
>>107566512Oh and it's very easy to avoid running dbus on UNIX systems including Linux right now. The only thing that really requires it in daily use is Firefox (you are using Firefox, right anon?). On OpenBSD a dbus instance is faked when Firefox and other applications that require it are launched in userspace. You can do this on Linux as well. But you'll probably want to use Gentoo for this purpose instead of trying to hack it out of other distros like Debian (and ones based on it) or Arch (which is just Debian with extra steps at this point).Tons of stuff they claim is required in Linux user space is not. Like systemd shims, dbus, polkit and a whole other host of cancer. Applications that claim they require these things might throw some errors but you can safely ignore them. 9 times out of 10 they will work just fine without having them on the system.
dbus has always been a slow, insecure, broken pile of shit. Kay Sievers tried to stuff it into the kernel as kdbus and got permabanned from contributing because his code was that bad. Unfortunately vaxry’s replacement is going nowhere because free software is driven by personal politics now and vaxry is permanently banned from freedesktop and RH stuff. Expect the IBM trannies to slap some shitty patches on bus1, say everything is fixed and blackmail the other distros into using that because regular dbus doesn’t need systemd.
>>107566329To play devil's advocate, with the current desktop security level if there's a malicious program running you're unfortunately already fucked well beyond this being a concern. To not play devil's advocate, this is really fucking retarded and it makes me mad every time I read the libsecret related wiki pages.
>>107566525This is true, I only need dbus for Firefox on gentoo. Funny thing, I only needed pulseaudio for Firefox too. Mozilla is gnome tier internally and people give them a free ride because Firefox has majority market share on Linux
>>107566541Having a system bus in the kernel would be a good thing if it wasn't being submitted by a total retard. I think skabus is currently the best thing to focus on; https://skarnet.org/software/skabus/The only issue with skarnet software is the author is not the type to hand hold. So you really have to dive into the man pages and know what you're doing to get it up and going. But then the second problem shows up: The fact that few people are running things like s6 and its related tools so you have to go searching for help in the few places where people are hacking on it. The mailing lists and some of the less visited pages on the gentoo wiki. It's hard to talk to these people as well because the gentoo forum is pretty hostile to non-mainstream software these days. So your best bet is going on IRC and hoping they're online.>>107566553You should be able to run Firefox without it and it'll only throw some errors to console you can ignore last I checked. If not you can check out the OpenBSD's thing for faking it. It should be fully portable to Linux/Gentoo. There were some wiki articles and threads about running things without dbus on the Gentoo forums years ago but I think they got purged when they deleted the off the wall forum.Last I checked the only thing that really breaks without dbus installed in Libreoffice. The context menus do not work if there is no dbus running.
>>107566329Wow, once you input the encryption password, the keys are decrypted? What is this hacker wizardry?
>>107566553>>107566573Also concerning the pulseaudio issue. If you switch to snido you can have a good sound server on Gentoo without all the issues plaguing Linux with sound servers at the moment. Firefox fully supports snido. snido is the best sound server I've used on UNIX. Jack/Jack2 is also pretty great. If you go the JACK route you can fake a pulseaudio instance and pipe it into JACK to get Firefox sound working without having to deal with ALSA+Pulseaudio/Pipewire madness. I use JACK on machines where I need a realtime kernel and snido everywhere else. Although I'm going to attempt switching fully to snido on systems where I run realtime kernel soon. I just need to test snido more on Linux realtime kernels before I attempt it.https://sndio.org/
>>107566329Fuck all of this i'm going qubes.
>>107566585that's not how other operating systems do it.In fact i believe the secrets-equivalent systems on all operating systems are all isolated for each app.And on modern windows, android, macOS the really important stuff is stored in your security processor.On Linux your keyring is unlocked and... that's it. Everything can access it.
>>107566329Why can we not just use Android's binder?It seems pretty competent. We could certainly also benefit from their advanced permission system now that we are building portals.
>>107566573Both me lol. I actually use s6 init on my machine but I never looked into the bus. About gentoo’s culture, that’s very true. There are strong politics here involved over init and system infrastructure in general. It wasn’t that long ago tmpfiles and eudev were dropped from the distro under false pretences. New installs essentially have hard dependencies on systemd and the foundation devs are just waiting for the next openrc CVE to pull the plug.>>107566586Thanks for the sndio advice. I actually like pipewire and was an early adopter, but I’m very disappointed that in practice it amounted to a compatibility layer for shitty pulseaudio deps.
>>107566523>Wayland un-ironically only ever got good only a few years ago. AKA when KDE and other desktops besides GNOME got involved.Wayland is its own can of worms. I've actively avoided it as much as I can because the protocol is horrible and working with them to fix things was so frustrating that I gave up trying to submit patches a long time ago.I ended up putting my efforts toward Arcan which is a very interesting project you should check out. https://arcan-fe.com/about/As for wayland for the one or two things that require it I'm currently running them through an Xorg fork (not Xlibre although I'm keeping an eye on that). OpenBSD has a very good Xorg patch set that fixes 99% of the problems I had with it. It's called and ports exist for Linux. https://xenocara.org/>>107566585>>107566619This is true. Anything can pluck it right out of RAM and on most Linux systems most any application can grab it from your ~ folder.
>>107566633That’s like asking why we couldn’t use surface flinger and androids window manager instead of wayland. Linux is infested by shitty people making shitty software to keep their consulting contracts going. Collabora is the worst.>>107566640Are you the arcan dev? Incredibly based if so.
>>107566489gayland requires dbus
>>107566637>Gentoo issues with init/systemdYes I'm very aware of that one guy sitting on OpenRC and refusing patches. I was forced to stop following the main repos due to that. Most of my system comes straight from GURU now and I'm surprised no one has forked the project. It's a real shame Funtoo died.How is s6 support from GURU now? I'm still maintaining my own large private repo of ebuilds. I used to follow a bunch of discussion from the off-the-wall forum off shoot where all the old timers went. But it went offline without warning a few years ago and I have no idea where those guys went so I've been on my own since then.>snidoYou'll really like it and won't go back to pipewire/pulse/etc. I fell in love with the sound server as soon as I tried it since you can write directly to files and get sound output. It also supports things like using the right speaker for one application and the left for another. sndio man pages are really good some of the best I've ever used. I can't go back to using anything else.>>107566652>Are you an Arcan dev?I've contributed to it but I can't take credit for much. I've mainly been attempting to write man pages for it and improving the existing one. I don't have as much time as I used to for these things.My main goal is to eventually build a new WM/DE for it that will be familiar to users of old Windows 2k/Gnome 2/old KDE GUI. Well that combined with a simple dwm-like WM for people that don't want to use a mouse. But it'll be a few more years at the soonest before I finish it I'm sure. Arcan really is amazing and its going to be a lot of work to expose the things it can do to end users that aren't already really familiar with using stuff like terminal emulators in day-to-day use.My goal is to get it so my Grandmother can use it without me holding her hand.
>>107566329Because they are obviously getting paid by Microsoft to sabotage the linux desktop. You guys never stop to wonder why when ever anyone makes something that isn't dog shit suddenly they are getting attacked, called racist, sexist, nazi, homophobic or whatever?Are you guys not waking up and connecting the dots?
thread derailment attempt do not reply
>>107566640>Wayland is its own can of worms. I've actively avoided it as much as I can because the protocol is horrible and working with them to fix things was so frustrating that I gave up trying to submit patches a long time ago.Honestly understandable.Personally i use wayland and considering the amount of effort that has been put into it I doubt it will be replaced with something else anytime soon.If i could go back in time and pushed everyone into a direction it would have been either Mir or Arcan.But in the end of the day we are stuck with wayland. And honestly probably the biggest problem with wayland right now is the fact that they don't have BDFL and instead do that stupid voting shit with GNOME shitting everything up every time.>>107566652i guess (then again looking at surface slinger today it's almost as if it has achieved all of wayland's goals of having a protocols for various platforms including non desktop)>>107566670portals do, wayland itself doesn't.And due to portals being a protocol they could be implemented in a way where they do not require dbus(that's how the BSDs do it)(although specific portals are tied to dbus features)Then again if an alternative to dbus gets adopted we can make new portals protocols that do not require dbus and instead use the new alternative.
>>107566637>I’m very disappointed that in practice it amounted to a compatibility layer for shitty pulseaudio deps.I wanted to reply to this as well. Yes I despise that pipewire is just another layer of hacky shit on top of what we already had. Did you suffer through the early days of pulseaudio eating 20+% of the CPU at idle like I did? Sometimes it'd take the entire CPU for no reason in the early days. It has always been a massive piece of shit.But the main issue with audio on Linux kernel has always been ALSA. They should have never gone away from OSS in the kernel. OSS really improved over the years in the BSDs. ALSA could have been decent but they never documented it properly and making it work is like doing voodoo rituals and praying to kami. Half of the time it just decides to randomly break for no reason and most people that claim to be experts on ALSA have no idea what's really going on. OSS and snido don't have those problems.
>>107566711>we're stuck with waylandWell as the guy that attempted to derail pointed out. This mostly boils down to the fact that things are no longer accepted based on merits in the Linux world. I think the way forward is continuing to improve Xorg (or a fork). Xenocara addressed most of the issues with it and it's getting improvements all of the time. But the same people pushing wayland control the Xorg mainline and have refused patches for years now. OpenBSD guys would really prefer to not have to maintain their patch set (and in the future, probably a full fork). They've tried to get them upstreamed for years and the Xorg people refuse to accept anything then turn around and claim no one wants to work on it. Then we had that whole Xlibre drama recently with that guy attempting to upstream patches as well.Xorg isn't great but it does work and most applications require it. So we're stuck supporting it. The way forward is something like Arcan and supporting "legacy" software that wants Xorg (and Wayland) through it. In time the most important applications can be modified to use something like Arcan directly.Xorg isn't going away ever. We need it for too much stuff. Which in my case includes supporting a lot of old Windows software going back to the 3.xx era through things like wine.Wayland will never be able to do the things Arcan can do right now no matter how much we hack on it. Wayland will also never get support for those things due to the nature of how the project is governed. A lot of the problems we face are people problems, not code problems.
>>107566683I’m an ex-Funtoo user too. I didn’t realise it died. I left because I didn’t like the change from rolling release.>s6 support from GURUI use the s6 packages from the main repo. Technically I actually use 66, which wraps s6 for service management. I forked it from architect’s overlay, which might be dead now.
>>107566717I wasn’t around that early. I grew to hate pulseaudio because I was a distro hopper and laptop user and pulse would always have broken or no audio on a fresh install.>OSS I used that for a while when it was still in the kernel. Is it still in active development?
>>107566549>To play devil's advocate, with the current desktop security level if there's a malicious program running you're unfortunately already fucked well beyond this being a concern.This is very true. A lot of this stuff on Linux that's claimed to solve the security issues don't really do anything at all. I've wager 99% of people using Linux do not isolate their web browser into a chroot, jail or make any effort to restrict it from seeing everything on the system (it has full access to ~ by default for example). On OpenBSD they have two things called pledge and unveil to restrict what web browsers can access on the system. It works very well (everything in base system and most things in ports have pledge/unveil support).On Linux distros and FreeBSD by default they do nothing to restrict the browser from accessing everything. So you're screwed if you run some rouge javascript. Same goes for anything you install on the system. Something like wayland is not going to save you in this case.>>107566780I didn't realize s6 was in the main repo now. I started using it years ago before it was well supported. I have to set up most everything myself.>66Has it been updated lately? Last I looked at 66 it was at least 2 or 3 years behind s6 so it lacked the ability to use a lot of things in the latest s6.One of the things I like the most about the skarnet tools is they are not tightly tied together. Unlike systemd you can pick and choose what you want to run from the suite.A more user friendly way of configuring would be a very good thing. I've thought about writing something for that myself a few times. But I barely have time to maintain my own overlay as it is. I'll check out the one you mentioned.It it wasn't for the all the promotion systemd got when they were attempting to shove it into all the main distros like Debian/Gentoo/etc I think s6 would have been adopted instead. It's certainly a much better way to solve the problem with init/services.
>>107566811>I used that for a while when it was still in the kernel. Is it still in active development?Yes the BSDs never dropped support for it so it got a ton of improvements over the years. I was around for the OSS drama and I thought it was pretty stupid. Not worth rehashing but at the time it was a huge pain because the switch to ALSA happened very fast and didn't support a lot of hardware I was using at the time. Then there was the fact that it was horrible to configure correctly and get multiple applications mixing audio at the same time. ALSA has always been a really hacky piece of shit.If you're interested check out FreeBSD's version of OSS. It's also very good and I've never had an issue with it just working on most laptops I've used it on. I still prefer snido though and it's fully supported on FreeBSD as well. But you'll have to compile everything you use from FreeBSD's ports because they typically don't enable support by default in the binaries IIRC. They might have changed their policy on that but I usually compile ports from source on FreeBSD because I need support for other things that are no longer enabled by default. Like gtk2 support for things like emacs (e.g. Motif)
>>107566815>On OpenBSD they have two things called pledge and unveil to restrict what web browsers can access on the systemI've been really tempted by OpenBSD/FreeBSD for a while. Haven't looked into it with any due diligence to make claims against it in good faith, but for example I'm currently cucked into systemd reliance for secure boot setup plus being a heavy user of the libvirt/QEMU/KVM stack and I'm just slightly nervous about the time investment of having to relearn half what I thought I knew. Also not pleased at having to redo my hosted personal software repos and build systems. For all I know these might be non-issues once I look into it though. I'll give it a proper chance eventually, I just need free time..
>>107566815The last release was 6 months ago and iirc the 0.8.0 release made some breaking changes to modernise the s6 usage. Honestly I haven’t looked at my local overlay for that in about a year.https://git.obarun.org/Obarun/66/-/releasesAgree with you about sandboxing browsers and other web services. I use bubblejail, but there is very little documentation about how to do this and it’s very uncommon in Linux. Security is mostly used as a weapon against older software paradigms by people who don’t care about it, at least that’s how I see wayland that needs dbus and flatpak that ships with wide open permissions and giant runtimes.
>>107566878OpenBSD is great and I run it as my daily desktop on two laptops I have. Which I mostly use for my day-to-day work. It's the easiest OS I've ever installed on a thinkpad (or any other system). It's meant to run as a desktop by default if you choose that option at install time and unlike installing Gentoo (or any other Linux distro) everything just werks (sound, GPU drivers, wifi, desktop etc). Everything you need comes with the base system and most everything you probably want is available from ports (binaries although you can build from source if you want).As long as you don't need bluetooth support you should be good to go. Anything you do need to configure/change is well documented in the man pages and changing something only requires editing a text file. It's by far the best UNIX OS and is plenty fast on any laptop made in the last 15 years.pledge and unveil are really nice. Together they restrict access for everything running on the system. If you want to give an application access to something that isn't the default you can do it by editing one file in /etchttps://www.openbsd.org/papers/BeckPledgeUnveilBSDCan2018.pdfI can't praise it enough and there is no way I could include everything I like about it in a few posts here. The community is also very nice and I've had no issue contributing or working with the guys hacking on it. Nicest community I've worked with by far. Reminds me of how working on Linux was 20 years ago.The best part about it is the concept of separation of the base system and ports. Instead of everything being stuffed into /usr/ they put ports in /usr/local. So it's pretty much impossible to bork the OS unless you do it on purpose.The only downside is the file system. But I haven't lost any files to corruption in all the years I've used it. On a laptop it doesn't really matter because you basically have a UPS with the battery and all. Thinkpads are well supported hardware wise even very recent ones.
>>107566924>>107566878Concerning FreeBSD: It's also nice but they've started importing a lot of things from Linux lately like wayland and I do not like the community as much as OpenBSD's. But FreeBSD is by far the best OS around if you want support for things like wine, gaming, working with multimedia (making music, editing video etc). The file system is also much better than anything else out there (ZFS).So my current set-up is: FreeBSD for workstations where I work with multimedia. OpenBSD for my laptops where I'm working mostly with text and hacking on code. I've replaced all my arcade cabinets with FreeBSD for example.Most of what you know from Linux will carry over just fine. The man pages are _very_ good for the main BSDs (NetBSD is great too). You'll just have to get familiar with using tools like ifconfig again.For example: On OpenBSD connecting to wifi is a simple ifconfig command. No wpa_supplicant madeness. The system isn't constantly fighting you in other words. It's like Linux was 15+ years ago when it comes to configuring things and getting them working.FreeBSD will require you to install Xorg/Wayland manually from ports. It doesn't not offer a desktop set-up by default. OpenBSD offers a desktop by default with three different WMs/DEs in the base system. If you want to use something else (e.g. dwm, Openbox) it's a simple one line change to the usual Xorg config file.The man pages for both OSs are really really good. In OpenBSD an error in the man pages is considered to be the same a bug in the code itself.OpenBSD is so stable I'm running -current on all my systems and I never have an issue. Things are so well tested you don't have to worry about upgrading to the next point release breaking something. OpenBSD has the best update process I've ever used.
>>107566890Thanks for link to overlay I'll check it out.Concerning browsers: There used to be some good documentation for isolating them from the rest of the system on the Gentoo wiki. But I haven't checked the wiki in awhile so I'm not sure if they're still there.For FreeBSD they have capsicum for restricting what applications can access. On OpenBSD they use pledge/unveil. Basically on OpenBSD they require the devs to set sane default for every application. For example, by default Firefox and Chrome can only access ~/Downloads folder. On FreeBSD you're expected to set up these rules yourself but you have several options for doing it. I prefer running it in a jail. Jails are great I don't understand why they were never ported over to Linux because FreeBSD has had jails for as long as I can remember (I started using FreeBSD in the mid-late 90s).The main difference between Linux and the BSDs is you're expected to read the man pages before asking for help. You don't have to go searching all over the web looking for help. The man pages cover everything. FreeBSD also has its own helpful (and active) forum where you get quick replies from other users. They also don't seem to censor discussion about certain topics that are off limits on Linux forums. Lots of recent people showed up in the last few years that have switched over from Linux.Switching isn't really hard either it won't take you more than a few days to get familiar with the differences. Highly recommended.It's really hard to go back to Linux after using a proper OS where the kernel and the base system are developed together. Everything feels much better.
>>107566329Just wordcel things. They can't wrap their head around subordination hierarchies like superuser -> user -> apps. They view reality in terms of communication of policies.
>>107566924>>107566968>there is no way I could include everything I like about it in a few posts hereI'd be incredibly impressed if you could, honestly. Appreciate the best-effort overview nonetheless.>The only downside is the file systemI was concerned on that but realistically all my hosts backup everything important to my server's ZFS array. It's probably not a big deal for me personally.>>107567014>Jails are great I don't understand why they were never ported over to LinuxKinda fulfilled by LXC now, I guess?
>>107567014One last thing I need to praise BSD for.https://wiki.freebsd.org/bhyve>bhyve, pronounced "beehive" is a hypervisor/virtual machine manager for FreeBSD that supports a wide range of guest operating systems on Intel and AMD processors that support the "POPCNT" (POPulation Count) feature, and experimentally ARM64/aarch64 processors that support the gic0: <ARM Generic Interrupt Controller v3.0> feature (visible in dmesg(8)). >bhyve supports multiple storage and networking back-ends, UEFI, FreeBSD loader, and GRUB booting, PCI Pass-Through (PPT), integrated VNC and 9pfs servers, and many more features. bhyve is amazing and there is nothing like it anywhere else. I use it daily to run older versions of Windows to support software that can not be run through wine. I really wish it was ported over to Linux.Also FreeBSD can support all Linux software through a built-in emulator in the kernel. So on the off chance you have some hardware (e.g. wifi) that isn't natively supported with a driver you can run it through the Linux emulator and get things working that way. Although having a native driver is much better of course. FreeBSD's support for wifi isn't as good as OpenBSD's driver ime. But the situation is constantly improving.The main issue with FreeBSD vs. OpenBSD boils down to this: Most FreeBSD devs do not daily drive the OS as their desktop. Most of them are using Apple hardware. OpenBSD devs all use the OS as their daily driver from what I've seen. So support for hardware is great if you have the same hardware they're using (thinkpads obviously have great support). But if you have say an Nvidia graphics card you're out of luck and should use FreeBSD instead.In short: When the BSDs have support for your hardware things are great and just werk. But it does kind of lag behind Linux in this area for new hardware and it typically takes a few months-a year before support for new hardware is ported over from Linux.
>>107567069>I was concerned on that but realistically all my hosts backup everything important to my server's ZFS array. It's probably not a big deal for me personally.The attitude within the OpenBSD community is that you should have backups. They're trying to improve the file system but they don't want to port over ZFS because it's a lot of code to audit. I've had no issues with FFS2 and it's a decent file system. I've never lost data even when I killed the power on purpose to see what would happen. But then again I'm not storing massive amounts of data on those systems. I mostly store text files and I have a home server to important stuff. For day-to-day use it seems fine and I'm not worried about it even on systems where I don't have a battery to shut down cleanly when the power it cut.>>107567069>Kinda fulfilled by LXC now, I guess?It's a similar concept yes but it does a lot more and jails have been around forever now. It's covered in the handbook if you want to read more about them:https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/jails/I run my web browser in a jail and I've never had any issues with it. I think pledge/unveil is a better way to do about doing this because it's simpler and doesn't require the end user to do anything by default. Most ports in OpenBSD have pledge/unveil support now and I wish the concept would be ported over to other OSs. But most people seem to like the container thing better for whatever reason. Adding pledge and unveil support to an existing application isn't hard though. The Chrome and Firefox ports have pledge/unveil and those were probably the most important and hardest applications to implement it in.With the BSDs the main perk of using them is the documentation, man pages and the community. You won't find a better community of people anywhere else ime.
>>107567111You've definitely made me far more enthused at the idea of giving it a shot, thanks anon. I've no complaints about needing to read man pages, if anything that's the preferred approach.
>>107566549>if there's a malicious program running you're unfortunately already fuckedlaughs in snapAppArmor has been a thing since ages, and snaps are confined.
>>107566585That's not how secret storage works. The password is supposed to unlock it for the user, and applications to be explicitly given access when they request a secret, or to be whitelisted but the user should still get a notification when the secret is accessed.
>>107567194>snapsNTA but at that point just use Windows 10/11 S. Also unrelated, but it seems rapeape broke the tomorrow theme.
>>107567194It's a good start but they're vastly inferior to the other sandboxing solutions outside of the Linux-space. Once we hit critical mass and serious malware groups start branching out from Windows towards the Linux desktop userbase we're in for a very rude awakening.
>>107566640>Xenocara>Arcan>OpenBSDHoly meme soup! None of this shit has any relevance, nobody bothers using them or working on them and the memeBSDs don't even boot on recent computers.
>>107567224>just use WindowsSure, when it gets snap support. I'm not running applications outside a sandbox.
>>107567243i think professionally people mostly care about freeBSD(because of netflix)
>>107567138I think you'll be happy once you give it a go. If you have a thinkpad or hardware that's well supported you should be up and running within 10 minutes. The community/devs will even take the time to write/port drivers for you if you donate hardware to them. No support for Nvidia of course due to the driver situation with them.Don't forget to send your dmesg after you've installed the OS.https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#SendDmesgThe devs request that everyone send in a dmesg post-install. It helps the devs out a lot. You can find a list of dmesg that were sent in here: https://dmesgd.nycbug.org/index.cgi?do=index&fts=OpenBSDYou should find things to your liking because portage from Gentoo was based on the ports system used by all the BSDs and their off-shoots. I would avoid using something like GhostBSD when starting out. I'm sure it and the forks are fine but they come with a lot of things pre-installed/configured that might not be to your liking. It's kind of like the difference between running Debian or Ubuntu.I mostly suggest OpenBSD for starting out because you'll have a working desktop/Xenocara post install. Although I need to warn you that the default WM is Fvwm which isn't a WM most people run. As I said before there are three WMs in the base system and imo cwm(1) is the best. Man page is here: https://man.openbsd.org/cwm.1Of course if you want dwm, i3, MATE...whatever it's painless to switch them. One line change in a config file and it should just werk since all the ports of WMs/DEs are well tested. I personally run my own patched dwm. Most people gravitate to using tools included in the base system by default over time. With FreeBSD you're going to have to setup X manually along with whatever DM/WM you prefer.Oh and OpenBSD has a lot of cool stuff like mg(1). mg is so good I've stopped using emacs for a lot of things.As a Gentoo user you should feel right at home. God speed.
>>107567426>As a Gentoo user you should feel right at homeWasn't actually the Gentoo anon you were speaking to before, I'm >>107566878, but I do happen to also run Gentoo on one of my laptops, so post should still apply kek. Thanks again.
>>107567243Sir I see you in every thread where BSD is being discussed. I don't wish to quarrel with you because you have no intention to trying the BSDs and it's obvious to everyone that you've never interacted with our community. The community is very nice and will help you with whatever problem you've encountered. Send in a dmesg and I bet whatever issue you're having will be fixed within a week tops.Us OpenBSD and FreeBSD users/devs do not really care about how the mainstream feels about these projects. They're built and maintained by people who just want a stable OS that is well documented and follows POSIX. Both are fine OSs and so is NetBSD. I encourage you to try posting on the FreeBSD forums or going to the IRC channel where the community will be happy to hold your hand and help you with your problems.
>>107567484>/g/ is one user
>>107567324netflix doesnt use zfs because the i/o speeds is shit plus overhead
>>107567562i didn't know what.To be fair i don't know why they use BSD either.
>>107567477Ah I see. Sorry I confused you with another anon. You should check out the man pages for vmm(4) (https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html).As far as building from source you should fine all the tools you need in the base system. If you stumble upon a script or something that relies on GNU's Coreutils it isn't a big deal. Most of the time it's a one or two line change in your script to make things work correctly with the baseutils in Open/FreeBSD. But if you want to run the script without modifying it for just the one system all of the GNU coreutils are in the ports tree. They're prefixed with the letter "g" and can run side by side with the BSD utils in the base system. A lot of the GNU tools don't follow POSIX standards and there are minor changes in them. The BSDs are more strict about following the standards and the code is much cleaner. All my "linux only" scripts work fine in OpenBSD if I run them with the GNU tools. The port is solid. GCC is also in the base system although it's an older version for reasons I don't want to get into because this is already getting too long.As a Gentoo user you should take to the process of building ports easily if you prefer building everything from source like you do with gentoo. Of course, most things are already offered as binaries and most have multiple choices with different compile time options enabled/disabled.Even if you don't run it on the desktop getting familiar with OpenBSD is a good use of your time. OpenBSD is the more secure and solid OS for firewalls/routers. Learning pf alone is worth the investment: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/An openbsd system has served has my router/firewall for decades now. It's rock solid and I've never had an issue with it in all these years.
>>107567568mit (cuck license)
>>107567568They use BSD because it's better than Linux for running a stable network. The network stack in FreeBSD used to be much faster than Linux. On my home network using FreeBSD for my home server serving multimedia to over 20 users via Jellyfin among other things like mpd. It's stable and I've never had a problem with the zfs file system. I have a lot of HDDs in that box and it's by far the best file system I've used.For my router I'm using OpenBSD for firewall+routing and it works just fine with my fiber and cable ISPs. I have instant fall over if one ISP goes down and my users never complain about buffering or anything.Since the BSDs aren't constantly changing low level stuff like the networking stack I haven't had to re-configure stuff in many years. They're rock solid boxes that just do their job without requiring intervention every time I update them to the next release. With Linux all of this was a huge pain.I don't care about the license. I pirate tons of software and media. Why would I care what license the OS is released under?I still use Linux (Gentoo mostly) for other hardware I have so I'm very familiar with both OSs and the community surrounding them. The BSDs don't change while Linux is a constant churn to stay up to date. So I don't use Linux for hardware that runs my LAN. Which has a lot of machines hooked up to it (I currently have 13 devices on the network wired and a few more using wireless).Don't be a zealot. You're only limiting yourself by being a GNU zealot. I run a lot of non-UNIX OSs too on some of my devices. It's good to learn how different OSs work and why those decisions were made long ago.God speed.
>>107567484Honestly? This tranny isn't wrong https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2024-11-15-why-i-stopped-using-openbsd.html
>>107567580>A lot of the GNU tools don't follow POSIX standards and there are minor changes in themShouldn't be an issue as luckily I'm already a POSIX autist who strips GNU extensions out of everything for (so far mostly unrealized) compatibility benefits. Not anti-GNU or anything, just pro-POSIX. Despite my apprehensions I've been "preparing" myself already and 95% of everything I've ever written or configured will work on any POSIX OS. For instance I know all the non-GUI related components of my entire shell configuration and personal scripts work as intended on OpenBSD and FreeBSD (and MacOS too for that matter, lol).>pfThis is already one of the things I'm most interested in learning as I've been running OPNsense for ~18 months now and it slightly irks me that I don't know how the underlying system works quite as well as I did my busybox-based routers. I'd like to replace some of my edge systems to be OpenBSD based as I already have a good amount of faith in its competency, simplicity and security, but on principal I'm not shifting reliance onto a system before I properly understand it.
>>107566815>isolate the web browserThis is why Ubuntu defaults to Firefox as a Snap and yet retards cry and bitch about it because it has a ~1 second longer startup time.
>>107566329What makes you think every piece is a metric?
>>107567687I mainly run into issues with scripts when I use a script made by someone else. A lot of people are not aware that GNU's tools do not follow POSIX correctly. Typically, it's usually awk where I run into issues. But most of the time It's a 5-10 minute job to make the script fully POSIX compliant. It isn't a big deal and if I'm lazy I can always grab GNU's awk and run it with that. All that to say you shouldn't have any problems at all.I think you'll enjoy pf. It's the best thing out there that I've found and OpenBSD should server you just fine once you're familiar with pf. You'll really enjoy it when it comes time to update. I'm not lying when I say I've never had an issue running>sysupgradeit always just works and after a reboot it just keeps chugging along. Same for>syspatchwhen there is an errata. The devs put a lot of effort into updates/patching process and it really show. It's rock solid stable especially on the -stable branch. I've never had problems using -current on my laptop either. I update to -current snapshot about once a week. I keep an eye on the mailing lists to see what's changed or been added before I run it of course.>>107567717I am not familiar with snaps but I seriously doubt they are on the same level security wise as running the browser in a jail on FreeBSD or running them on OpenBSD with pledge/unveil built in.
>>107567770>seriously doubt they are on the same level securityAnd you are correct, snaps are a lot better, as in "the browser continues working just as before sandboxing".Please don't make me try a web browser in jails, I will screenshot every failure and you will never get away with it.
>>107567683He/She/It contributed obsdfreqd for laptops and it's good software. I run it on both my laptops and it works just fine. I've read that blog post and most of his/it/her issues involve running corporate spyware, gaming, and bluetooth support. Which isn't a big deal for most OpenBSD devs. You should know going on that you're not getting support for certain things because no one wants them enough to implement them or support was removed due to security concerns. Bluetooth support for example was removed due to security concerns. Bluetooth is a massive security hole on all OSs/kernels that support it. In short in seems no one wants it and there are work arounds if you really need it. Like buying a usb -> bluetooth dongle which is fully supported.This is main reason I like openbsd devs. They aren't afraid to remove crappy bug ridden code from the base system. The kernel and base system is intended to be as secure and small as possible. Code gets removed or replaced all of the time. What he/it/she should have done is get second computer to play video games on. Since most of the issues cited in the blog post boil down to not being able to play modern AAA games. Which is not high on the list of things people working on/running OpenBSD as a desktop want. OpenBSD machines are used for doing hacking/programming tasks, not gaming.The OpenBSD want to keep the code as clean and small as possible. Anyone is free to step up and write code to support those type of things.That blog is written by someone that wasn't working on the kernel or deeply involved with development. All they did was write blog posts and many of them were out of date within months of being published and they were never corrected. The type of people that take her/his advice are the type of people that go searching on google for help instead of reading and understanding the man pages and mailing lists.In other words: he/it/she is an attention whore.
>>107567863>Bluetooth is a massive security holeYou keep parroting this but everyone knows you're just trying to cope.>>107567484>Us OpenBSD and FreeBSD users/devs do not really care about how the mainstream feels about these projects.Kek you're absolutely seething every time basic issues like... ummm... the shit not even booting on real hardware nor in a VM, delusional posts like "it works on our hardware" can't change the reality that you went through multiple hardware combinations before finding one that (barely) works.
>>107567863Idk, tranny uses QubeOS which in return has several tranny developers hard on work doing what the fuck is deemed "secure" and rewriting tidbits in Rust while shouting that it isn't a distro for having an reliance on Xen, in reality that's bullshit since it's Fedora. Besides that, you can run OpenBSD in QubeOS.
>>107567863>He/She/It contributed obsdfreqd for laptops and it's good software.I should add: The daemon she/he/whatever wrote is not very complicate or impressive. I will be removing it from my systems in the near future because all it does it tell apm(4) (https://man.openbsd.org/man4/macppc/apm.4) to change the status of the CPU and lower its clock to extend battery life when you're running OpenBSD on a laptop. apm can do this itself and there are already plans to implement this functionality into the base system. It's actually already here and I'm still running obsdfreqd because I'm lazy and haven't bothered to change my local config.In short: while it's a helpful daemon and I appreciate that they took the time to make it. It's not a very complicated script and anyone could whip it up in a few minutes. Their blog posts were also helpful for some newbies I'm sure. But the OpenBSD devs/community prefer users to read the man pages instead. Since the OS is getting updates every 6 months for -stable release and things often change. So any third party blog posts/articles/resources become out of date very quickly. Which causes all sorts of issues for newbies that are used to using other OSs where you're forced to rely on random forum/blog posts on the web.The best way to stay up to date with development is checking https://undeadly.org, release notes and the man pages. A new user of OpenBSD shouldn't even require an internet connection to get things set up and running the way they want. Since all the man pages are included in the base install.>>107567933Oh and I see you're just looking to troll. I'm not going to bite again. If you are not aware of bluetooth being a horrible complicated undocumented standard that's a massive security issue there is no point in writing a long post to prove otherwise. I'll just say this: If your car was built after 2013 I can take control of it and drive it remotely with a cell phone if I want.
>>107567933>HardwareOpenBSD worked right off on most hardware I have laying around excluding a PC with an Nvidia GPU for obvious reasons beyond our control. The one device I had that couldn't run OpenBSD due to lack of drivers was quickly brought up within a week because a kind developer helped me write drivers for it. I also donated a laptop to a developer that wrote drivers for it and figured out its horrible firmware within a couple of weeks. If there is a driver for Linux it's very easy to port them to OpenBSD and they are always happy to accept hardware donations (and will send them back to you free of charge if you pay postage). So no, this has never been a problem for me. If you have a thinkpad or any other common device the odds are good it's already supported. For every -stable release all hardware developers have on hand has been tested thoroughly. If you discover a common laptop/PC/device that can't run OpenBSD all you have to do is send a dmesg and you'll likely have a working driver within a month or so.>>107567940My guess is they ran OpenBSD for awhile and wrote about it because they knew it would bring attention to them. Since I see links to that blog all over the place when I search for openbsd on yandex and google.
>>107567484>do not really care about how the mainstream feels...said he, while hijacking a GNU/Linux thread with his BSD nonsense.
>>107567770>I am not familiar with snaps but I seriously doubt they are on the same level security wise as running the browser in a jail on FreeBSD or running them on OpenBSD with pledge/unveil built in.I don't know about BSD's thing, but Snaps offer a similar level of isolation than Firejail.Firejail runs an userspace sandbox while AppArmor runs acess control directly at kernel level. For your regular usage I don't think there's much of a difference but theoretically AppArmor's access control should be harder to bypass since the kernel itself is controlling all access from any process related to a specific program.Bear in mind that AppArmor competes with SELinux and not with Firejail. They're just different things.Firefox under Snap has no access to the filesystem besides ~/Downloads by default and even that can be restricted.
>>107568349>hijackingNah, that was probably me saying that I wanted to give *BSD a go and the resulting conversation of it, the BSD discussion prior to that point was relevant to the topic.>>107568362>FirejailUnderstandable confusion but Firejail/Bubblejail are different from FreeBSD jails which was what was being referred to
>>107566329Nobody knows, it's fucking garbage though. I always build emacs w/o dbus and it's like 20% faster for whatever reason.I want to get rid of that shit entirely.
>>107566329>footfags in charge of not being retarded
>>107566329security on a DESKTOP linux is a meme. If your computer is not a server it's pointless. I don't care about that bullshit.
Gnome is being abandoned, every serious distro that draws in new users have abandoned gnome. Wayland will be next once enough people/steam get fed up
>>107570540Ok then give me ssh access to your desktop pc
>>107570580It's already happening, OpenBSD seems to be something people bail to. Mailing list traffic on openbsd-misc has gone up quite a lot in just a few years. With Rust in the kernel now, even NetBSD is finally seeing an uptick in users. You can still run that on a toaster. And there's life in the 68k Mac port again for the first time in a while, they're even working on making that work with CPUs with no FPU too, that work will be ported to other arch's when it's done over time.
>>107570713Retard, I would need to intentionally expose and port-forward ports to do that.My system is a fucking desktop. It's not a server.Try to hack me, moron.Security is "sold" to people that have no clue that you can't just hack a computer over the network. You need to hack my router first.Instead of securing a desktop, secure your firewall/router.
>>107566512> everything to do with the GUI.absolutely based take. Is there a way toward this? Seems difficult in current year. In-kernel GUI would have changed everything if we had it from the inception of Linux.
>>107570763kek you're delusional
>>107566329yeah this is why I avoid anything made by canonical or the gnome people, it's always dogshitware that does not work and fixes take forever to get merged.we ditched ubuntu at work because of this, it's debian + kde now and it's been very smooth ever since.
