This is not a drill, it's finally confirmed that China has a working EUV prototype since early 2025, it's just undergoing testing and verification right now, expected to enter large scale production by 2028-2030. >In a high-security Shenzhen laboratory, Chinese scientists have built what Washington has spent years trying to prevent: a prototype of a machine capable of producing the cutting-edge semiconductor chips that power artificial intelligence, smartphones and weapons central to Western military dominance, Reuters has learned. Completed in early 2025 and now undergoing testing, the prototype fills nearly an entire factory floor.>The availability of parts from older ASML machines on secondary markets has allowed China to build a domestic prototype, with the government setting a goal of producing working chips on the prototype by 2028, according to the two people.But those close to the project say a more realistic target is 2030, which is still years earlier than the decade that analysts believed it would take China to match the West on chips.>The breakthrough marks the culmination of a six-year government initiative to achieve semiconductor self-sufficiency, one of President Xi Jinping's highest priorities. While China's semiconductor goals have been public, the Shenzhen EUV project has been conducted in secret, according to the people.https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-china-built-its-manhattan-project-rival-west-ai-chips-2025-12-17/
How much of this tech is stolen from ASML?
>>107581694How much of your seething is China induced?
>>107581694Looks like most of it is via poached ex-ASML employees.
>>107581713*innocently pays your employees some chump change to leak valuable IPNice one China.
Just the words "EUV" don't by themselves mean anything that specific, and even when they get a tool that's exactly like ASML's, it's still not high-frequency enough to use directly you have to use it interferetively. I imagine China will figure that part out pretty quick, their manufacturing is good, but it will push out any actual product they make by at least months to a year.
I believe it when I see it. China hired almost all ex-asml employees (thousands of them) over the last 15 years trying to reverse engineer EUV. Their DUV isn't even up to spec of asml DUV yet.Just to give you some indication. China has had 8 EUV prototypes since 2010. None of them translated to industrial scale production.I DO think however that China will crack DUV on asml quality before 2030. EUV is almost impossible to achieve. No one in the USA managed to achieve it. Intel tried for 20 years in vain. ASML got insanely lucky by getting it to work.
>>107581694Hopefully all of it, so it actually works.
>>107582023>>107581694Intellectual property is not real property
>>>ITS TOTALLY TRUEE
>>107581648>Europa Universalis 5Works on my machine
>>107582281>enjoys expansion pack hellHard pass on Paradox.
So why does it matter if the IP is stolen? What the fuck is gonna happen? ASML suing the CCP? LOL
>>107581694>>107581717>>107582023>The availability of parts from older ASML machines on secondary markets has allowed China to build a domestic prototypeAsk me how I know you have reading difficulties. Likely based on forming a preconcieved narrative and selectively failing to absorb data that conflicts it.
>>107582232>Intellectual property is not real propertyYou say this but would bitch and moan if someone tried to steal yours. I think the rest of the world should just ignore Chinese patents outright.
>>107582322>tried to steal yoursnta but i freely share anything that I make that could be considered intellectual "property", I'm an open source absolutistanyways gatekeeping intellectual """property""" is one of the most obvious and typical kike behaviors and anyone who gives a fuck about protecting it is either kike themselves or corporate bootlicker
>>107582184Making a scanner remotely as good as ASML is more difficult than a decent EUV light source, not less.
>>107581713You're losing track of causes and consequences here.We're not "seething" about China out of the blue.We're merely reacting to their shitty propaganda thread. Which get ceaselessly spammed on several 4chan board by their fucking paid shills.If another country behaved that way, we would "seethe" about them too.But no other country does that, currently.CCP is the only government/culture with that retarded "Look at us!!! We exist!!!" mindset.
>>107582416If you decide to donate your time and effort on open source software that is your decision. Forcing everyone else to do the same is where you enter total retard territory.
>>107582416>i freely share anything that I make that could be considered intellectual "property", I'm an open source absolutistMe too.But I don't share everything. They can't be trusted.>>107582435>CCP is the only government/culture with that retarded "Look at us!!! We exist!!!" mindset.As evidenced by all the inbred closetcucks that regular escape /pol to literally shit all over other board's threads with "Murrica!", instatntly diagnosing any conflicting opinion that attempts to interject sense commonly with 'brown', 'thirdie', or 'tranny' ???
>>107582477Makes sense in a capitalist society but it makes me think about this behavior in a socialist type of society where money doesn't matter. Some faggot kikes would inevitably withhold information or designs hostage in exchange for something, whether it be praise or more resources. In a sense, you could argue that humans don't deserve to exist based on the same logic of greedy "what do I get out of it?" human behavior.
>>107582477by open source I didnt just mean software, but everything: books, media, images etc.in my perfect world only monetary incentive comes from people voluntarily donating to the creator of the digital/intelectual property.
>>107581648china ALWAYS lies
Congratulations China
>>107581648China won.Fat amerimulattoes SEETHING lmao>inb4 xibucks deposited to my accountYES
>>107582561>you could argue that humans don't deserve to existNTA. But I do. Frequently.Don't neglect the not giving a fuck, as long as they get theirs...For an example of the damages caused by this mentality, I provision the internet.There was a time when there was no adverts.But then adverts appeared. But it was tollerated, because they still get the website. That became pop-ups. That was tollerated because they still get the website.That became invasive metrification to "target the pop-ups". I still get the website, who cares? That data has no value, and I have nothing to hide...That mentality bled over into the 'tardphone market, which is why the handcomputer is so crippled compared to an actual computer. Technologically, there is no excuse. But they still get their doomscroller, so what does it matter? works for *me*... Then suddenly, after a decade of placing nails into sticks being used to beat them with, they start complaining about the stick starting to hurt...Not quite worked out why I think they should all die simply so their lack of consideration doesn't cause them to keep shitting on their own doorstep and complaining about the stink... Apparently it's because I'm an unreasonable cunt./me shrugs.
>>107581648>undergoing testing and verificationHow's that china news thing working out? Yeah, about like you'd expect.The china death watch is about as successful as the chinese innovation watch. China never dies, and China also never innovates.
>>107581648>the country that builds literally everything in the world is capable of building (thing)!Oh noHow could this unforeseen thing have happened
>>107581648I am no expert, but by definition, that does not mean that they can start making sub 5 nm dies all of a sudden, right?
>>107582743>China also never innovates.You're right anon! Never once in the near seven thousand years of civilisation has china once demonstrated innovation, I can't believe how I'd missed this previously.It's a good thing I can't be bothered to pay attention to the literally thousands of research papers released this year with literally tens of thousands of chinese names attached as author, from pretty much every research institute on the planet, or that would knock some serious holes in my reatarded premise.
>>107582611>in my perfect world only monetary incentive comes from people voluntarily donating to the creator of the digital/intelectual property.No one does that IRL, ever.In your magical perfect world people work for free for no reason other than boredom.
>>107582729Agreed. At the end of the day, everything really does just boil down to might is right, unfortunately. There cannot be good as long as there is evil as even good must do evil to remove evil.
>>107582829>No one does that IRL, ever.That was very close to the only way any art ever got made from the dawn of humanity to the early 1800s.
>>107581648Good. Finally we can break this mobster judeo-masonic monopoly on chips and have some healthy competition and a race to innovate again.
>>107581648this is westoid FUD, designed to impose even more restrictions on chips against china.
>>107582788>that does not mean that they can start making sub 5 nm dies all of a sudden, right?I've got it in my head from somewhere this is only 7nm... Not sure where now tho.And realistically, if all things are to be believed, that'll not be spitting out mass until 2030ish. Maybe a little sooner if they get lucky. But expect rapid pivot from 7=>5=>3....Functionally, most 'concerns' they are able to counter with simply using more chips. They have the space, and with the rate they're popping out renewables, spare power... Additionally, feeding them renewables will severely offset running costs...
>>107582184>ASML got insanely lucky by getting it to workyeah people often ignore the luck element, ASML had great engineering talents but they also just plain got lucky in finding the right setup before going underand they absolutely were likely to go bankrupt btw if they hadn't found the way to make EUV work when they did, they spent a colossal amount of effort into it and a little before they managed to make it work in production most people thought they had hit a dead end.
>>107581648>This is not a drillSure looks like. 4 bullet points, all boil down to>sources say>sources say>sources say>sources say
>>107582849>as even good must do evil to remove evil.Retarded premise.You make that compromise, you become the evil.It's not that 'good' must do evil to fight evil. It's that 'good' is frequently lazy and stupid, and evil is the easy answer to the problem.>>107582867>designed to impose even more restrictions on chips against china.In turn, forcing them to internalise and innovate harder...Tried to make 'em install backdoors in huawei equipment, they said 'no' - a smear campaign errupted, hauwei removed from 'western' networks. China replaces all their shit with huawei kicks Akamai out, then uses the backdoor intended for Akamai to rape the data ready to sell down to the alphabet soups to insert itself deep into 'western' networks and is unable to be dislodged, whilst they're sitting somewhere 'functionally dark'. Like N. Korea.
>>107582948>retarded premise>proves me rightRetarded bot
>>107583119>>proves me rightHow, precisely?By directly invalidating the premise that good must be evil to fight evil, by hilighting this is not the only option, it's just the *easy* option?>Retarded botYou can't even spot the difference between intellectual capacity and regurgitated tokens.Which one of us is the retard?This is why you don't get trusted with anything that matters, btw.
>>107583271low quality ai post
>>107581648>Experts believe 2028 but more likely 2030cool, so next year then
>>107581648>HOLY FUCKING SHIT CHINA HAS A WORKING EUV MACHINEIts hardly surprising, its not like they were going to let anything stand in the way of obtaining the tech for themselves. They do it with everything else. Whats more surprising to me is that they jumped their ability to produce near flawless mirrors so much in the last couple of years to allow this. Thats impressive.
>>107582890What? Everyone's familiar with the 'right' approach, and are probably quite knowledgeable about even the last minutiae of how the machine worksThere's no 'luck' involved for the copiers - they already know what to do. Why can't they do it then?
>>107581648I for one salute my Chinese overlords.
Great news if true, the tech ((monopoly)) is getting really fucking boring
>>107583425>There's no 'luck' involved for the copiers - they already know what to do. Why can't they do it then?The core problem is the wavelength of the light, 13.5 nanometers. At this wavelength, light is so energetic that it is absorbed by almost everything, including air and glass. The machine therefore needs to run in a near perfect vacuum, you cannot use air, noble gas, anything. The entire inside of a school-bus-sized machine must be a near-perfect vacuum. Even a few stray molecules of air will will block the light and ruin the output. Then there’s the mirror problem, you cannot use lenses as the wavelength is absorbed by most transparent materials, the light just gets absorbed instead of passing through, heating the lens instead. You must use mirrors, however, even the most polished normal mirror is "mountainous" at 13.5nm.The mirrors (made by Zeiss in Germany) are the flattest objects ever made, if you blew a Zeiss mirror from an EUV machine up to the size of Germany, the highest "mountain" on it would be less than 1 millimeter tall. They are ridiculously flat, and are planed by knocking off individual molecules via ion beam figuring.On top of those problems then you have the issue of the light source to actually produce the EUV light in a cohereant fashion, repeatably. Since EUV light doesn't occur naturally on Earth, you have to manufacture it, ASML does this by dropping a tiny bead of molten tin (30 microns) into a vacuum. A high-power CO2 laser hits the drop to flatten it into a pancake shape. A second, more powerful laser pulse vaporizes the molten pancaked tin into a plasma at 220,000°C, about 40 times the temperature of the surface of the Sun. This happens 50,000 times per second.Describing it as a "copier" isn’t doing it any justice whatsoever.
why does ASML make me cream my pants so much? it's so cyberpunky, only one company that is able to make things that the entire world depends on
>>107583580>The machine therefore needs to run in a near perfect vacuumThis is a completely trivial problem for any company capable of making anything resembling semiconductor manufacturing equipment and photo scanners are not the only tools with this requirement.>even the most polished normal mirror is "mountainous" at 13.5nmnormal bathroom mirrors have peak to trough variability of about 50-80 angstroms before being warped by gravity. Anyone in a position to make semiconductor manufacturing equipment should be able to handle being way smoother no problem. Especially if they also make CVD machines that are literally solving the exact same fucking problem to even tighter tolerances on wafer surfaces.> tiny bead of molten tin (30 microns) into a vacuummicrons is not a unit of volume.Please stop getting your information from AI or substacks or reddit, manufacturing process tolerances have always been the harder part of semiconductor manufacturing than the physics but you're hyper focusing on all the wrong crap, crap that's already been solved by China in general for several years. Besides, even when you have a working photolithography machine, they constantly fuck up and you need to back the wafers up a few steps to fix them. It's not really a binary for will it or won't it work it's just a question of throughput. China is very very very very very good at making a fuck ton of a slightly worse thing.
>>107581648Again, how many times now have i read this same article over the years?
Great news. TSMC, intel and global foundry are clearly incapable of producing a market environment that's conductive to consumers.Whenever a product gets made in china, its availability and price only improve for consumers.EUV machine export controls are likely directly linked with the current RAM and SSD shortages.I hope the Chinese have initiatives for leapfrogging to high-NA to keep up with other foundries as well. Make these price gouging fucks compete.
>>107583382Does the adult know you're on the internet again?>>107583438lol
>>107581648Added to the list of "totally real china achievements"
>>107583769>EUV machine export controlsThey're not really export controls so much as threats and bullying. Since ASML isn't an American company all they can do is threaten to ban American companies from buying ASML machines if they also sell to China. This will backfire at some point in the future, could be 3 years away, could be 10, but it will backfire.
>>107583680>normal bathroom mirrors have peak to trough variability of about 50-80 angstroms before being warped by gravity.The margin of error in an EUV multilayer mirror is 0.25A˚, its not even remotely close. CVD is far to grainy to be used in the manufacturing process. You're insane if you think anything about an EUV machine is easy, Canon, Nikon, Intel, SVG, Cymer all gave it a shot and backed out years later after the crippling costs of trying to get it to work. I'm sure they would all love your input on how easy it is, you should be a consultant to them, name your price if you can get it to work for them easily and cheaply.
>>107582788>>107582884SMIC is already building 5nm chips with just DUV with multipatterning: https://x.com/techinsightsinc/status/1999167548928172365
>>107581694It literally is an ASML clone, they got the parts and employees, what do you think it would be?
