What were they smoking?
>>108010984It doesn't matter anymore now that everything has become x86 or ARM slop.
>>108010984Nobody knew how it would play out and in the end it didn't even make a difference when x86 was heavily multithreaded too. Plus the chip never really got to it's full potential as it was designed on paper and had to be changed up last minute.
>>108010984>What were they smoking?It was a powerPC plus 8 vector accelerators, the idea was that the SPEs do vector transformations similar to vertex shaders (but with far better programmability; HLSL was not yet a thing so at the time you had to program shaders in limited assembly), and you pair it up with a very fast but very basic rasterizer.Basically a logical extrapolation of the PS2 hardware (which was an extrapolation of the PS1 hardware).
>>108011079>Plus the chip never really got to it's full potential as it was designed on paper and had to be changed up last minute.What do you mean?
That Kutaragi and his goofball architectures.
>>108011079>Plus the chip never really got to it's full potentialOh no, it very much did. Naughty dog figured out how to exploit the SPEs and squeeze some performance out of them, but this was almost at the tail end of its lifetime and the 360's more straightforward design was still more efficient.
We were eating rotisserie chicken
>>108010984The Cell Engine is the future of computing. It's the only way to combat the AI slop and coding.
The retard is back btwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LBNnC37CKI
me go fast hehe
>>108010984>PPE was IEEE754 compliant>SPEs were notWhat the fuck were they smoking?
>>108010984Did you know Kutaragi actually wanted two Cell processors instead of an Nvidia GPU?Despite growing up with bootleg NES systems, SEGA Mega Drive and PS1 the PS3 is honestly still my favourite generation. The PS3 ran some seriously impressive looking games considering the hardware.The 360 was still the better design though, I wonder how much better it would have been if they chose a newer PPC architecture with out of order execution.
>>108011535>*an older PPC architecture with out of order executionThey already had PPC architectures with out-of-order execution, they threw it away for longer pipelines and higher clock speeds.
>>108011400PS2 was not compliant either. It's why PS2 emus have so many problems.>>108011535>Did you know Kutaragi actually wanted two Cell processors instead of an Nvidia GPU?No, they wanted to have a PS2-like dumb pixel rasterizer that exchanges complexity with raw speed, plus a "gate keeper" chip that sorts the Cell-processed vertices into proper order for drawing. They (Toshiba, iirc) could not fab it. After that they tried using a second Cell as a GPU, and it turned out horrible. They had no chance at that point but to go with nVidia.
>>108012030>PS2 was not compliant either.I know, but that was a completely different ISA. PS2 was MIPS, PS3 is PowerPC. And despite being PowerPC for both the PPE and the SPEs, the FPU is different.
>>108011067>It doesn't matter anymore now that everything has become x86But I like that paradigm.It's not "efficient", per se, but it's so ubiquitous.
>>108010984Imagine if the Cell money went to NVIDIA instead.
>>108012297It's insane how big of a jump the 8800 was, has there been anything like that since?
>>108012359No. NVIDIA realized that not giving you the best was a better strategy.
>>108011079they should had spent a ton on a compiler to actually be able to produce optimized code from sane developers
>>108010984Same shit as the PS2, but worse. Emotion Engine was also a fucking nightmare of a chip to program for.
>>108013206That would have been very un-Japanese. The PS3 embodies the Japanese way of technology. Slow, bureaucratic, overly convoluted.
>>108012297At least the PS3 being based on the 6800 GT forced the developers to optimize that generation of games... right?
>>108013350i mean its not only them, every convoluted isa had the same problem, they didnt develop proper compilers
>>108010984>Cell>Wacky/ExoticLol. The cell isn't anything new or interesting. Calling it strange is like a Python programmer calling C strange because they aren't used to thinking about memory addresses as values. x86 has satellite processors too. Both over PCIe and of course the x87.Sadly, exotic designs in real hardware basically died out in the early 90s. Computers used to be a lot less ubiquitous, but designing hardware just got way too expensive and complicated even for simple and typical designs. The principle still lives on in FPGA projects, though:https://mn416.github.io/reduceron-project/jfp-reduceron.pdf
>>108012416The jump from 980ti to 1080ti was rather big.
>>108013517>just got way too expensiveHang on, wasn't capitalism supposed to lead to competition that gives us better products?
>>108013619>The jump from 980ti to 1080ti was rather big.2x performance used to be the norm with new generation of cards.Nowadays the only thing that doubles is the power usage, performance actually gets worse.
>>108011215>It's the only way to combat the AI slop and coding.Shut the fuck up, retard.
>>108014129Go fix your stock price, Satya.
>>108013976Capitalism is a reaction against mercantilism developed in the 18th century, dealing with the organization of an agrarian society in a less centralized manner. It argued on the basis of both moral reasons and the idea that getting rid of landed gentry would result in a society that wasn't just nicer to live in, but also that the resulting self-organization would create a hardier society less prone to catastrophic failures like famine.Also that is the better product in the way that computers have become used, because the primary purpose of a computer isn't rooted in how theoretically compelling their model of computation is. Literally fucking nobody wants to be at the mercy of an iAPX 432 to do real work. To top it off, the conceptually simpler architectures could afford to dump their complexity budget into making their pipeline as fast as possible, which turns out allows them to handle the same exact workload much faster than specialized processors could. By the 90s they basically completely outstripped exotic approaches to hardware. They were also mass manufacturable making them much cheaper. You could pay $25k for a single Lisp machine that almost nobody could work with without special training, or $1k for a workstation that is hundreds of times faster at executing Lisp programs and any other kind of program you want.
>>108014169There's nothing about the cell that combats AI slop. Retard, shut your whore mouth.
>>108014182I'm not using Copilot, Satya.
>>1080140433090 to 4090 was a 2x jump in performance at the same powerthere was a time when 250w cards weren't the norm before them too
>>108013619Meh.
>>108013390No, most games were vastly inferior on the PS3. That's not optimization.
>>108013390Games were optimized for Radeon (360/Wii).
>>108010984>What were they smoking?literally nothing. calling it wacky is a techlet memethis chip made absolute sense at the time as another anon explained>>108011101
>>108014467wrong, Microsoft made the right, non-retarded choices hardware wise compared to Sony, at least for OG XB and 360, and it shows
>>108014285>3090 to 4090 was a 2x jump in performance at the same poweryeah, twice the gay tracing perf and twice the frame generation.
>>108010984the atari jag used tom and jerry, but most devs just used tom anywayI don't blame them to be fair, even if every single jaguar owner bought your game, it's a drop in the bucket
>>108013517>FPGA projectsI'm tempted to make my own stupid FPGA project once I get "the right" FPGAMaybe a custom architecture that only has a MOV instruction or some shit
>>108014043> performance actually gets worseThats because gpus are being replaced with AI slop accelerators. This decline will continue. Eventually games will be rendered at 320x240@15fps and upscaled.
>>108014560>wrong, Microsoft made the right,>doubles down on being a techlet they are both PowerPC cpus with similar architecture
>>108015150>similar architecturethey might have the same ISA but the underlying arch is totally differentplease stop posting, you're below /g/ retarded
>>108015150>similar architecture>outs himself as the real techlet
>>108014902>twice the ray tracing performanceExactly, that's all that matters
>>108015179>>outs himself as the real techletbreh we both know you are bluffing and im right. the 360 and the PS3 and not that different.
>>108010984Nothing? It was ahead of it's time and the world wasn't ready for it yet.
>>108010984crack>>108011067ARM is goated
>>108015444From a surface level, no.When it came to bringing games to them, especially ones from other platforms, yes.The PS3 and 360 came around the time that game engines were starting to really parallelize parts of the engine and usually the cores were identical, so it didn't matter where the threads went and you didn't have any limitations differences to the main core your program code is on.With the PS3 that was not the case. If you wanted to spawn a parallel thread you had to write that specifically for one or more SPEs, which are completely different instruction sets and are specifically targeted at vector operations.
>>108011101Out of curiosity did MIPS just hit a performance/technology wall?
>>108016590https://en.eeworld.com.cn/mp/Icbank/a41139.jspxPerhaps the answers you're looking for.
>>108010984Crazy Ken Kutaragi:>I made Praystation and Praystation Too biggu successu>I make Praystation Tree on Pow Pee Cee>Emotional Engineu biggu successu!*proceeds to fuck over the company with his hubris*There's a reason he was outst and Mark "I made Marble Madness in the 1980's" Cerny took over.
>>108017067and then mark cerny killed playstation
>>108017067>*proceeds to fuck over the company with his hubris*Playstation seems to be doing pretty well.
>>108010984it was based tho
alternative isa general?alternative isa general
The SNES's audio processing unit (also designed by Kutaragi) could also be seen as a "wacky architecture" desu
>>108020092I never knew of this one before. And based on 6502? Clearly man of taste. I'd call this epic rather than wacky.
>>108020092What about it is wacky? It's a bog standard ADPCM synth. Maybe the type of ADPCM is uses is not standard but there were 1001 such formats at the time.
>>108010984Sony thought developers wanted whacky coprocessors that were fast and flexible but had to be programed manuallyDevelopers just wanted a good GPU and a fast multi core CPU to run unreal engine and other ports. That's why the 360 won, it had more normal CPU cores.
The cell was not much different than an APU or an apple M1:one general core (PPE)eight fpu/vector cores (SPE)you had to compile programs specifically for the SPE architecture... like you would do with shaders for gpu! cell was just too early, game devs were mostly amateurs not well versed in computer science back then.
>>108021530it had more normal cpu cores because microsoft didn't enforced a retarted low power consumption unlike Ken Kutaragi
>>108011191I don't think he was specifically referring to the PS3's cell processor, but cell processor architecture in general. It was designed to be a multipurpose and used for a wide variety of things from medical imaging to blade servers to aerospace uses and cluster/supercomputers etc etc etc. It didn't reach its full potential because nowadays it's only thought of as "the PS3 processor". It was supposed to be so much more than that, the PS3 was just supposed to be one device that was going to use it.
>>108021596>like you would do with shaders for gpu!Except that shaders would work asynchronously and independently on the GPU, SPEs needed constant micromanagement to feed them data and process their outputs. And that's on top of that of the bullshit optimizations you needed to make the PPE not stall when reaching a branch.The Xbox 360 cpu alone was better, not because of its 3 PPE cores, but because they added a bunch of extra vector instructions so it could do 128bit vector processing without babysitting, so you only had to deal with the PPE being some Pentium 4 type slow as shit chip (apparently the Wii was faster in some scenarios).>>108021652It failed not because it didn't reach its potential, but because by the time it released, you also had Core 2 Quad and 8800GTX on the market both of which eclipsed the Cell in power and were far more simpler and useful.
>>108021796yeah because spe were more generalist than shaders which were working on pixel buffers, textures, matrices only.
>>108022062You had CUDA available just a few months after the Cell which allowed to run general parallel computing tasks on GPUs by 2007. Cell was stillborn.
>>108021530developers will handle whatever so long as the dev kits are goodnobody was expected to raw dog assembly code after 1995
>>108010984better than aislop now...
>>108011191>Naughty dog figured out how to exploit the SPEsThat's thanks to Mark Cerny and the ICE (Internal Common Engine) team, which some of Naughty Dog was a part of. Inspite of Kutaragi attempting to make wacky shit thinking developers would flock to it because they flocked to the (easier to develop IIRC and then super popular) PSX and PS2 systems.>>108021652>and cluster/supercomputersIt was... by the Air Force. https://phys.org/news/2010-12-air-playstation-3s-supercomputer.htmlThen Sony Update 3.21 (see what they did there?) killed Linux support, so who knows if that was even still used past the crowing/PR of it.One thing I'll give Ken though: He nailed UX. PSX, PS2, PSP, and PS3 menus were all solid. XMB is still a godlike UX (which only issue IMO is organization, something that could be fixed with a minor folder system for submenus within the XMB).
>>108017294PS4 was a success. PSP2 was a minor success (not an entirely Dreamcast flop, but still has it's fans but not as strong as the PSP), PS5? Yeah, you got a point there but that's less to do with Cerny and more the changing video game player market (everyone going PC because shit is too expensive for 700 console [low level PC] + rental service/online fee + Internet Service Provider fee + video game fee.>>108017361PS4 brought them back. But until the tail end of (the extended) PS360 generation, the PS3 was a distant third place, only overtaking X-box 360 because MS's own fuck ups (thanks to Don "why on Earth would I want to live in a place with shit internet?" Mattrick) toward the end.
>>108015444Yes they fucking are, you absolute Dunning-Kruger midwit. The instruction set is a fucking nothingburger. This completely ignores the fact that Xenos had unified shaders, unified system RAM, and dedicated EDRAM.
>>108011067x86 is based
>>108011215Seethe more. You've already been replaced.
>>108011215>It's the only way to combat the AI slop and coding.If that's all AI is putting out then why are you worried?
>>108010984Cell be was literal space alien tech used in supercomputers to folds proteins in cells, it could literally simulate emotions hence emotion engine
>>108025161Hardly. I did x86 assembly coding back in the day and it was awful. Now, x64 is cleaner but still in need of an overhaul.
>>108025569not really, it's my favorite assembly and I've written z80 and arm extensively too
>>108025582I note a critical lack of 6502 in your list...
so does kutaragi still design chips just for funsies
