>biggest problem with matrix was backend config>element devs made their own stack>100x easier than any other matrix install i've ever seen>near perfect element client compatibility>could probably just call this whole thing "element" now>doesn't connect to matrix.org by default>doesn't use vector.im auth server by default>fully private non-pozzed setup by default>it just werkshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIYfFeFxcbcIt simply got better.Literally no excuse. There is no other viable, long-term discord alternative but this. Everything else is either trash or just another company platform waiting to evolve into the same mess.Discuss.
is it a discord clone?
>>108162536yes but encrypted and open source
>>108162536pretty much... without all the problems and bullshit that comes with discord...the UI looks truly amazing.
>>108162489Still a complete fucking resource hog. I'm not gonna dedicate a whole-ass machine just to a chat server.
>>108162556this is still true in comparison with other stuff like xmpp... but what you get pound for pound for those resources are absolutely worth it. xmpp is super lightweight because it doesn't work.
>>108162570>what you get pound for pound for those resourcesGetting forced to host other server's data potentially making you liable for illegal shit? Yeah sounds fun.>just don't federateThen what's the point? Might as well use Stoat, Fluxer or one of the other dozen non-federating discord clones.
>>108162489>>doesn't connect to matrix.org by default?
>>108162556i don't know what you're doing, but i've run a synapse server for years and it doesn't use many resources.
Looks complicated as fuck anon.
>>108162636>same tired federation argumentsthere's the same level of trust involved in who you federate with as who you allow onto your own server. there is zero difference. you do not comprehend this and thats okay.>making you liable for illegal shitCDA section 230.>>108162668what is confusing about this?
>>108162684Seems to use enough resources that smaller public home servers like envs.net or disroot.org regularly give up and shut down.Matrix literally doesn't scale unless you can throw a datacenter at it.
>>108162718yea, it is complicated as fuck. that's why the biggest challenge has been coming up with a deployment method that builds all of this as cleanly and easily as possible. before ESS the ansible playbook was the best option and that was still a headache.
>mossad spyware shill threaddaily reminder that matrix was made by an israeli company which rolls its own crypto.
>>108162722element is made by matrix no?
>>108162718I've been using it for about 3 years now and I have no idea what any of this means
>>108162727>doesn't scaleyeah if you're willy nilly with federation and trying to home thousands of users you are absolutely right it's going to be a hog to run. I don't think that's the case for most people though.
>>108162668Federating into matrix.org can lead to your server caching resources from matrix.org servers, making you liable for whatever that happens to be.
>>108162742old news, things changed. be ignorant, i dont care.
>>108162489lollmaorofl even
>>108162749i dont understand, matrix got cloudflare hashing which is good
>>108162722>there's the same level of trust involved in who you federate with as who you allow onto your own serverNo there isn't because you can't know what users are signed up on a home server you federate with. Also you can't fully block other home servers. You can only block traffic but the events created by a blocked server can still land on your server via another server that also hosts the same room.
>>108162749>making you liabledepends on your country but in the US this is wholly and unequivocally untrue.
>>108162747The problem is less hosting users and more hosting rooms. Any room any user on your server joins has to be hosted by your server as well.
>>108162765you self host it retard. these figures are for element-hosted setups, which is great that they are supplying for users that can't self-host.
>>108162824in other words you admit it's unusable for anything besides groups of 3-4 people for which telegram and even fucking what'sapp are better alternatives and it's completely unfit to replace discord in any capacity (the only reason it's being shilled so hard these days)
>>108162489Screen sharing is barely functional and when it works, the audio sucks. That alone will keep most people on discord
Other self hosted options? My vps barely uses .01% of its resources so I might experiment.
>>108162837>I want someone else to host itand you'll also want him to not spy, datamine you, and ask you for id huh? hah
>>108162854Isn't that what E2EE is for?
>>108162782>>108162768yes this is why there is still a heavy need for trust in who you bring onto your server and who you federate with. the only inherent problem that comes with doing this is if you are negligent.Lets say a homeserver Bob federates with suddenly starts federating with bad actors. Bob's users wind up in a room with those bad actors. As soon as Bob realizes this, he can defederate, find the room that was created from the other federated server, and delete it. In literally seconds. As the admin you can see every single room and chat that your server hosts even if your server did not originate it and can easily remove them. >but what if your users collaborate with bad actors willingly and in secret?then your problem is your own users not with federation. this could be an issue with any self hosted service especially one that enables encryption. Ways to add more control in allowing your homeserver to duplicate federated room data is also being worked on and was a part of the conference that I linked in the OP. you should check it out. its very interesting.
>>108162837I have a dogshit VPS hosting 40 people with multiple video chats and it works fine. It's not that crazy. admittedly any more and I would be pushing its limits. but even still this is performance I am perfectly happy with because of how good the tooling is.
>>108162747>wants to replace discord>can't home thousands of usersthis is why everyone will just go back to discord like they always do
>>108162895every discord server that i'm in is with like 10-20 friends... this is where I want my privacy anyway.with 1,000+ users in a server that's meant to be more for practical community engagement and bullshit, sure discord can keep that i dont care.
>>108162895Why is discord the only service that can host so many people without lag or making people pay gorillions of dollars for premium?
>>108162916because they are giving you resources up front in exchange for you becoming a product to be sold and fed into AIs and palantir.
>>108162839that's what i was expecting, this shit never gets the basics right
>>108162880Do you not see how that scenario you describe adds a ton of administrative overhead? I wouldn't want to deal with that shit. And why would I want to delete the entire room? I still want to participate in whatever topic the room is about, surely.Keeping rooms server-local or at least making room replication optional (ideally on a room-by-room basis) would have been far more sane, but the designers of Matrix just had to make it mandatory.>Ways to add more control in allowing your homeserver to duplicate federated room data is also being worked on and was a part of the conference that I linked in the OPThat should have been part of the protocol in the first place. Anything they add now will be nothing but a bandaid fix, like the genius idea of just inviting a bot into a room, make it admin and doing moderation through it because moderation tools in Matrix are ass.
>>108162489I'm thinking about Stoat/Revolt but I wanna make sure I can still do NSFW on it. Does anyone know is NSFW is allowed?
>>108162932>screensharing is the basicslmao dude whatfirst of all, not the basics at all. second of all, it works just fine. about as well as a zoom call because its WebRTC.
>>108162941>administrative overheadclick room > delete is overhead?dude the real overhead is setting up the stack... if you can get past that literally anything else is baby stuff.>why would you want to delete the entire room?because you didnt create the room - the federated server did. literally 2 clicks and you have a new room spun up with the same topic that now you do own.>moderation tools in matrix are assyou've never used it have you
>>108162914Convincing those 10-20 friends to move over and install another app they can only use for your server might be a pain
>>108162743not really. different entities just building on the same protocol. element is a for-profit company which means if they can successfully generate revenue through enterprise solutions they can put out awesome shit without having to datamine users to stay afloat. at present this has resulted in an easier to install, easier to use, completely free and self-hostable way to use the matrix protocol that prioritizes user privacy because that is their core value prop.
>>108163027it was a pain until discord started pulling this shit, then they practically begged me to spin another one up for them. once they actually started using it though floodgates opened. i genuinely do like using it. can't say the same for other shit i've tried.
>>108163034so how does one selfhost then? not seen any tutorial for it, isnt it expensive
>>108162959>WebRTCThis shit is a pain
>>108162983>literally 2 clicks and you have a new room spun up with the same topic that now you do ownAt that point why use Matrix? XMPP is built around server-owned rooms. With Matrix no server ever truly owns a room. Part of the reasoning behind that is to remove the need for this nuke and repave pattern. Now here you're telling me to do just that, very funny.>you've never used it have youI've used it more than I'd like because some zealots absolutely wanted to stick to it. Their problem was that I hosted the server lol.Do you think I was joking about needing a bot because Matrix itself is inadequate?https://github.com/the-draupnir-project/Draupnir
>>108163044depends how you want to self host. If you want to use a computer from your home, it might be simpler. Set up the server computer following normal guides for ESS, buy a domain name, point the domain to your IP. Only other step you need if you are hosting at home is to port forward through your NAT. The better way to do it is through a VPS because it can be easier to manage long term and you won't run into problems with your NAT messing up traffic. You also don't have to expose your home IP then too which is nice.If you're looking for somewhere to start I would get a cheap VPS or try out some self-hosted tutorials on a computer you have laying around the house first and see if its something you're interested in.
>>108163068>xmppbecause its a broken fragmented mess and every single client for it is complete ass. I and everyone I've tried to migrate off of discord absolutely hated using it. The same has not been true for element/matrix.>bot to adminNot only are there some admin tools now built right into the client, but element admin panel/synapse admin panel are accessible from anywhere and can do literally anything that bot can do faster.like I said in the OP - It got better.
>>108162959voice channels and screen sharing are basics, yes
>>108163107>because its a broken fragmented messSo is Matrix, quite telling that you specify a single client to use.
>>108163040Which guide did you use and how much are your hosting fees?
>>108163130as far as I'm concerned there is one matrix client. in XMPP there are zero clients.If you don't understand what I mean you don't understand why everyone hates xmpp.
>>108163156Clearly you haven't used Movim.I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on Matrix moderation getting better (as long as you use the one supposedly non-shit client) since I haven't used it in a while by now. I take it it's also been a while since you checked out XMPP clients, if you even have beyond looking at them on a website.Either way, this is kinda beside the point. You advocate for workflows and paradigms that XMPP is built for while Matrix was built to replace them. It really doesn't make much sense.If it's all just about muh modern clients to you maybe you should stop trying to argue about the protocols themselves. Because all your arguments seem to be in favor of the XMPP model.
>>108163184>your arguments seem to be in favor of the XMPP modelin many ways they are. I don't think synced federation is something I personally need or want. However I think we are heading into a future where this actually WILL BE something we all need and want. Having a robust and well developed platform for self hosted uncensorable distributed comms that can be seamlessly tied in to your everyday private chats might be not only incredible useful but absolutely mandatory. I don't want to derail into some tinfoily discussion but I do firmly believe that the netwars are coming.
>>108162570XMPP literally just works.
wow, discord shills here. i hope you're getting free nitro in exchange for spreading lies.
https://github.com/nkuntz1934/matrix-workersThis is even easier than ESS
>>108163938isn't that just AI slop that doesn't work?
>it just werksbut are there voice channelsall I see people talk ab out are calls or like 'sorta kinda channel things but not really'
>>108164029Only on like two clients and if your home server(s) have support for it.
>>108164029you mean voice-only? right now its all webrtc afaik which is both voice and video. there was talk of them adding native VoIP to the stack so I imagine voice-only channels like discord are coming very soon.
>>108164029Other anons probably don't know what you mean, so I'll answer: No. There are no voice channels.There are voice and video calls, so this is purely a UX problem, and I find it baffling that the developers don't seem to realize that they could 10x the userbase if they wrote the 100 lines of webshit to make actual voice channels.
>>108164385There are with Element/Schildi and perhaps Commet via Element Call. They're called video rooms for whatever reason, video is optional though.
>Persistent chat?>Voice chat?>Video chat?>Screen sharing?>File sharing?What is the status of this?
>>108164398Sorry, but that's not even close to the "voice channel" UX, and this is exactly what I mean. I have to "join" a room to even see it, and even then, I can't see who's currently in the call, let alone who is speaking. I have to click on the channel, only then can I see (in an extremely clunky way) who I'm about to talk to. Then I have to press "join call" to start speaking.My point is that these are not hard problems to solve. The UX is incredibly bad, but it should be pretty easy to just copy Discord here. They just don't, for some reason.
>>108164500element supports all of that all preconfigured with ESS.file sharing can be configured for larger uploads i think by default the limit is 50MB.
>>108164541yeah, fuck that horrible UX. i'm just going to scan my ID and give it to discord if they don't make matrix look exactly like discord in the next few days.
>>108164652You joke but actual millions of normies are going to do this
>>108162489>MATRIX IS BETTER THAN YOU THINKHave they fixed the child porn problem? Not being able lock servers to invite only made that impossible to avoid.
>>108164700 ...you can lock a server to invite only. no one can register on my server. why do we get these shills who lie like this?
>>108162722>>same tired federation arguments>can't actually refute their argumentsThis is why everyone sticks with centralization instead of "federation" bullshit like Mastodon, BTW. None of you faggots can actually ANSWER the "what is the point if I'm on the hook for another persons illegal shit?" question.>BUT JUST DEFEDERATE AN--I can do that with my own protocol. There is no reason to use your "federated" one. Answer the question or accept the L.
>>108164732but you don't have your own protocol.
>>108162916>Why is discord the only service that can host so many people without lagIt's not. We have a protocol for what you're asking: IRC.Thing people, "normies" want video chat and other bullshit instead of just text chatrooms.The discord problem would be solved if people just went back to old protocols and fixed them up.
>>108164759>Thing people, "normies" want video chat and other bullshit instead of just text chatroomsthis is why you lost
>>108164759IRC doesn't have basic shit like persistent history and doesn't even scale that well. We're talking potentially hundreds of millions of concurrent users here. IRC networks at their peak had maybe a hundred thousand and netsplits were common.XMPP is really the only open chat protocol that has been proven with fucktons of concurrent users as Google used it for a few years and Whatsapp is still using a modified version of it, along some other large companies. Not in open federation of course, apart from Google back then, but these companies are large enough to have millions of concurrent users by themselves.Matrix claims over 100 million accounts, but that's overall accounts, far less will be active at any one time especially when you consider a lot of those accounts will be by people that only briefly tried Matrix in the past. I don't know if we have any actual concurrent user numbers for it.Also video chat and such really won't impact how well a protocol scales as the chat servers are generally only used for negotiation and signalling, the streams themselves will be P2P or via dedicated SFU servers for that purpose.
>>108164941IRC peaked above 100k, but you're right it never went into millions. Netsplits were usually networking related and not a software issue.Whatsapp scales because the server was written in erlang. It has little to do with the protocol.Matrix is just giving you matrix.org stats probably. I think matrix has been more focused on replacing slack and teams and acquiring business clients instead of become a discord clone.
>>108162959My friend group screen shares almost daily. It definitely is the basics for most people. There is already tremendous resistance for people to switch platforms, and they definitely won't do it if the alternative is just straight up worse.
>>108165073genuinely curious, why do you screenshare so much? i've never wanted to. i think some people do it to watch videos together?
>>108164732its been answered here and elsewhere hundreds of times but you all just conveniently ignore it because you want to stay in your lazy cozy bubble of status-quo, afraid to change anything.>im on the hook for another person's illegal shityou aren't. CDA section 230.its literally that simple.>no reason to use your "federated" one.having the option is nice and might one day become a requirement for anything to work at all.and even still you are presenting this argument by quietly walking over the fact that alternatives are simply not good or lack features. I don't see you refuting this.
>>108162489this fuckery is so fucking SLOWhow does Telegram do it ? Open app, BAM, it's ready.Element: open app, it will load all missed history since the dawn of time, and if you leave it in the background it will PAUSE. YOU HAVE TO FUCKING WATCH IT LOAD FOR ETERNITY.FUCK THIS OPEN SOURCE CANCER. Devs on the spectrum should be shot.
>>108165261that's not how it works for me. are you sure you're not just making shit up?
>>108165288how does it work for you ? You lead it and it's ready right away ?
>>108165304*load
>>108162489Matrix is bloat that barely works and is linked to Israeli intelligence.https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/matrix-vs-xmpp/XMPP is lightweight, simple, just works.
>>108165304yes, and modern element only loads a chunk and doesn't go back in time forever.
It's a buggy piece of shit, ask them to fix their craphttps://github.com/element-hq/element-web/issues/28067https://github.com/element-hq/element-web/issues/28059
>>108165351>bugs from 2024 without many watchers or any real pile-on of "me too!"
>>108165350I was exaggerating because it feels so long, but even unread events load so fucking slow. I'm in a dozen of rooms so it probably slows things up.
