TSMC and Samsung are the only 2 companies that are able to manufacture 3nm nodes for semiconductors.Why is that?Why can't Americans do it?Doesn't seem too hard. Maybe it's actually really easy and a genius can flip it upside down.
I make 0.3nm transistors in my oven
>>108433234To make chips at ~100nm you need a handful of good engineers, a few years, and a few million in funding/equipmentTo make chips at ~10nm you need a massive engineering team of top international experts, working over a period of several years, and trillions in funding/equipment
>>108433234he's so fucking retarded. talks with so much confidence about everything despite knowing literally nothing. the only thing he has done in his life is watched a few scifi movies and made insane claims.
>>108433234>Im gonna make a bet here!>proceeds to spout complete shitefat gumbumping arsehole
we need to put a submarine in a tiny, underwater cave.elon can ride in the sub.and we can leave him there.
>>108433662>>108433680>makes low iq third worlders seethebased Elon
>>108433234Maybe you could stop typing like a redditor.
>>108433234>Why can't Americans do it?Mexicans are the manufacturing base, they're competent for sloppa shit, but not for shit that requires careful detail. Also jeets are the base of the engineering, and they're completely incompetent altogether. If the American worker, blue and white collar, wasn't sold out for green line going up, we could feasibly be completely independent of the rest of the world in manufacturing.
>>108433234He's not wrong. You can do those things. It will just reduce yields because of how finicky the machines are.
>>108433234Why doesn't ASML do it themselves? How are they selling machines that they aren't even using themselves?
It takes 6 months to figure out if a wafer was fuckedWill be funny when they can't figure out why they keep fucking them up
>>108433234Are you retarded? Intel's 18A is 2nm. Panther Lake already shipped to clients, but products are delayed by RAM shortages.
>>108433686But...he is a third worlder with low iq?
>>108433662he's not, his job is to trick retarded investors
>>108434769I can't blame him. Retarded investors deserve to be separated from their money.
I bet Musk is thinking of isolated environments for the product, there is a reason that this is quickly becoming the industry standard but there is also a reason why the area just outside the isolated environment is almost always heavyily classified as a clean room too.
>>108433830And when things go wrong in any way, which they do you can't save anything, you'll have to throw away a lot of intermediate product that could otherwise be saved.
>>108433234Musk is so fucking retarded.This is the same guy that said americans are lazy and stupid and that's why he needs sycophantic h1b jeets
itt: eds retards mad that they don't own their own ram printer
>>108433836Because asml is selling shovels basically
>>108433234I mean he can do that in the fab but it will takes weeks, if not months, of work to get the environment back to the required state
>>108433234a bet with who? himself?
if chinks do it, no it's not difficult
>>108433275lol no, grok will handle it fine, we are letting xi take over taiwan ;)
>>108434838You fucking wish.>t. 64 GB RAM without pagefile
>>108433686>I barked the control words sar
>>108433830>He's not wrong.He's completely fucking wrong. You're an imbecile, the target audience for these statements of his.
>>108434799>uhhgh-- uhhh but what dud-daddy ment wusEvery fucking time. Anything so that you can continue deeply entrenched in your cult.
>>108433234its easy doing it at small scale. Doing it trillions times a day and keeping the error margin? very very hard
>>108433234???????????
>>108434971It takes money. There's zero skill involved.
>>108434991have they released any 18A chips?when they do that will be neat.
>>108433234h1b pajeets vs chinks
>>108433662He's quite literally an LLM made flesh:confidently wrong about everything, and constantly hallucinating.
>>108434939If you would actually read my post it was pretty clear that what I was saying was that it appears Musk has a surface level understanding of something, and that it can be implemented in the way he argues for but it would neither be wise nor economical.
>>108433845Nigga, Intel's 18A runs worse than TSMC's 3nm. Elon's going to come out with his own chips, call it 2nm, and have it perform like 10nm if he's lucky.
>>108433836>Why doesn't ASML do it themselves?He who controls the spice controls the universe.
>>108433234>Plant trees whose shade you will never rest inThis would require them to build infrastructure and train employees, which so difficult when they could just let one fab in Taiwan do it, and most CEOs will have golden parachuted out by the time they could see any dividends on it. When your stock market bullshit depends on letting go impressive seeming numbers of employees every quarter to seem forward thinking before you hit a minor slump, you're not going to attract any experts who don't want to be jerked around and just want stable employment for their high value skill.>MuskslopLiterally just hypeman bullshit and complacency. >I can do thing but better, just buy my stock and get in on the ground floor, it'll be here in 6 years maybe>I can do thing but better, don't bother funding realistic alternatives to thing that undermine the people who are paying me, just keep consuming the thing I have stock in
>>108433683underrated
>>108433234Moore's second law: the cost of a SOTA fab doubles every 4 years.Many companies don't do state of the art becuase it will take too long to break even.However the older process nodes (25nm) are being manufactured in indonesia etc.
>>108433836probably more profitable to specialise and maintain market dominance
>>108433241I make them by hand from raw materials.
>>108433234does he know what a clean room is or why they use them?(note for chart: 0.1 micron = 100 nanometres)
>>108433836ASML sold big chunks of themselves to their biggest customers - Intel, TSMC, etc - back in 2012 to fund development of EUV. Bear in mind, there was no indication at the time the market would explode because AI. That there was one SOTA machine supplier and its biggest customers all owned a chunk meant everyone was happy(ish) and ASML got the cash to cover the fantastic costs of EUV development, which no one company could afford otherwise.The situation now, most of those big customers have since dumped their shares, ASML looks like a single bottleneck, and Musk is right insofar as the world probably could use another few fabs. But even then, building a fab and building fab WITHOUT using ASML are two different things entirely. And while I think Musk could probably pull off the former, he appears to be attempting the latter, which is just fucking retarded for all sorts of reasons. But, that's Musk for you.
>>108433662it's possible there are other ways to accomplish the same thing that isn't a whole entire clean room. it makes sense that it's possible. It also makes sense that there may be made up requirements to get into fabs that were created to keep people out
we never needed to go beyond 45nm anyway
>>108435617sure, just like it's possible to breathe through your anus instead of your mouth
>>108435659bro, you really need to open up your mind, not just your ass
>>108433275you probably just have to poach the right people
>>108435004it doesn't if you have ever worked in a lab you would know. You can have $100m equipment but that shit won't work as advertised unless you make some arcane rituals. > inb4 AI yeah no
>>108433234Intel's 14nm++++++ was already 5nm tmnc equivalent before tmnc had it. You fell for the marketing label like a moron that you are.
Why/How did GlobalFoundries disappear into irrelevancy?
>>108435832couldn't clear 14nm and then lost AMD
>>108433234What type of ingenious solution has he come up with? Maybe a sophisticated static attraction of contaminants? A controlled airflow for more than 99.99% reduction? What could it be?
>microchips with tesla panel gap qualityThe future is bright
>>108433234as much as he is spewing retardation here it would be an insanely good thing for consumers if more companies worldwide were manufacturing semiconductorswe would POSSIBLY be in a lot better situation price wise due to high amount of competition which is currently non-existent
>>108435856idk, but if it doesn't involve mini submarines, I will be dissapoint.
>>108435856just throw it into space, no airborne contaminants in a vacuum
>>108435975SO, it was Space (and not submarines) be the solution to everything all along. I kneel.
>>108433662he's peak Dunning Kruger The Boring Company is a prime example, it's the easiest thing on earth to dig a hole in the ground and everyone else on the planet doing it are idiots compared to himCan't even get close to price performance of existing tunneling machines
>>108435856>A controlled airflow for more than 99.99% reduction?That is actually not nearly enough for the clean rooms used for chip fabs.
>>108433234>build a clean room>buy an ASML EUV machine>pay a few engineers and scientists>????>profitIt's not that hard.
>>108433662My tesla does 99% of my driving without me touching anything.Starlink also provides satellite internet to my home with speeds that were unthinkable a few years ago and an ease of use of a phone plan. And of course, Starlink couldn't exist without SpaceX.But I'm sure Elon has delivered nothing, right?
>>108436406You sound about as convincing as the Apple fanboys I knew who thought their iPod touch would make computers obsolete back in 2007.
>Are Semiconductors Really THAT DifficultAsianometry reading this thread:
>>108435009Yes, Panther Lake, laptops out in the market right now:https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/245526/intel-core-ultra-x9-processor-388h-18m-cache-up-to-5-10-ghz/specifications.html
>>108433234>Doesn't seem too hard.It is extremely hard you retarded monkey but go ahead and try it. American hyper-capitalism won't allow it to come to fruition because investors will want their money back next quarter when a new fab probably won't see a penny of profit for at least a decade.
>>108436376Step 2 has something of a waitlist afaikAnd given hes planning to skip that part anyway, Step 5 is not likely anytime soon. Nor ever.
>>108436376>pay a few engineers and scientists>wait two years for a design>wait another two years for validation>wait an extra year for testing >finally another year for productionSee >>108436504Americans investors don't have the patience for fabs, why do you think Intel is at the brink of bankruptcy.
>>108436417Please, tell me exactly which claims (which are all verifiable by any search online) are not convincing
So he's building a fab without EUV, without cleanrooms, and without helium?
>>108436646yeah, seems like.sheds we used to call 'em.'Big Building, Big Promises' - investors love all that shit and IPO around the corner and all.
>>108436466According to half the people in this thread, it's incredibly easy to design 2nm chips for the new EUV machine you purchased and you can now generate tens of billions of dollars.
>>108436661There's actually a guy on YouTube trying to build a fab in his shed. Although he has a cleanroom.
>>108436646Yes, he'll be munching on burgers and smoking cigars and 2nm chips will magically appear in front of him.
Prove it big boy. Let's see it on twatter. Honestly, if Elon just shut his fucking mouth a bit, he'd get a lot more credibility. Every time he says something, he shows that he has a surface level understanding of everything he does. He's like the human equivalent of telling AI to make an app and appending "Don't make any mistakes and no bugs" at the end of your prompt and feeling like a genius hacker for it.
>>108434789Judging by the AI bubble, when it bursts, it looks like a lot of them will hopefully lose a lot of money. Fingers crossed it takes out some hedge funds and wall streeters start painting the sidewalk with their bodies.
Elon's has been chasing the high of revolutionizing aerospace ever since. So basically he just goes to every other industry, makes a wild claim, hires a team of engineering mooks and task them to prove his bullshit isn't literally impossible to make. Rinse and repeat
>>108436689Nah, if you are American the senile orange at the White House will grab your money to save their ass, enjoy another 5 trillion debt.
I am going to make the wild claim that semiconductor manufacturing is literally the most complex thing humanity has ever done
streetshitters are not sentient
>>108436714Oh god you're right. I can't believe he's still alive desu, he eats fast food shit, clearly doesn't work out at all, fat as fuck, shits himself like a true american, and so on. Is it adrenochrome? Is it fucking kids? How is he still going? For real though, revolution when?Is he going to be able to distract enough from the epstein files to also have time to figure out how to silence the midterms? He's clearly unpopular and even a lot of the maga crowd have turned against him since even normies can see his leash getting yanked by netanyahu and that he's clearly trying to cover up the epstein files.
>>108436758Soon a major false flag a la 9/11 will happen, that will make the golems patriotic again and sacrifice themselves for Pissrael.
>>108436788I did see that apparently the Citi Bank tower in LA recently bought into an insurance plan for terrorist attacks. Feels like they're not even trying to hide it any more.
>>108433234>elon's playbook again>post bullshit on twitter to get attention, fail to followthrough laterso elon's going to build his own equipment? if he's planning to buy from asml he's going to have to get in line and i'm betting the contract on their leading-edge fab equipment requires a clean room before they'll install it.
>>108433234>eat and smoke in a fab clean roomHe's such a giant fucking retard holy shit. Anyone with a tiny bit of EE / Materials science / Semiconductor-industry experience knows that is a full-on retarded statement.
>>108433234>elon wants to build a fab>gets the estimate on the cost of a clean room>seethes on twittertech trump
>>108433234>Are Semiconductors Really THAT Difficult...?Yes
>>108435617The clean room is not the hardest or most expensive part of chip making.
>>108436719This is not a wild claim. You are right and it’s not even close.
>>108433234it's a very easy thing to do. basically, just ask an ai to do it and fill the fab with a bunch of robots. >inb4 butno butts. invest in my $company *now* or stay behind.
>>108433234>Maybe it's actually really easy and a genius can flip it upside down.It's hard because there few ways we know of doing it well. Most of it, machines and method, are owned with water-tight patents by a few companies.
Tesla had designed their own chips about a decade ago. So manufacturing their own stuff doesn't sound that unbelievable. What people are ignoring is that current production is monopolised and that always means lack of competitiveness, progress and efficiency.
>>108433234billionaire doesn't know his elbow from his asshole. to the surprise of no one.
>>108436672So why don't you have your own EUV machine? If its such a good investment why doesn't every 1% 'er have their own 2nm fab?
And why we need anything under 6nm? Just make the chip bigger
>>108437794>make the chip bigger>decrease the yield per wafer>increase the chance that some random impurity degrades or completely bricks the chipThinking galaxy-brain-level thoughts here.
>>108435838Weren't they doing 7nm, Samsung's process for zen3?
>>108436705This time it is close to impossible. Desu, modern fabs are closer to elven magic than human tech.
>>108436296Liquifying the air and chemically seperaring the oxygen and nitrogen should get you a completely clean atmosphere. Costs a hilarious amount of energy of course.
>>108433836TSMC almost certainly has in-house modifications the mere existence of which is compartmentalised knowledge within ASML and the exact nature hidden from ASML service techs. Even ASML has no idea how to use their machines as well as TSMC does.
>>108433841>It takes 6 months to figure out if a wafer was fuckedRapidus is targeting 15 days for rush orders. It's not like it's cheese, none of the processing steps take that long.
>>108437951They don't have modifications, like any tool there is skill in using it. Give a 3D printer and description what you want to an amateur and a professional working with 3d printers and the professional will have better results with the exact same tools
>>108434892He doesn't bet real people that remind him aboit being wrong after Sam Harris
>>108438091Their R&D budget is larger than ASML and they are their biggest customer. Knowledge about what a customer who has bought 100s of billions of machines is way beyond some ASML's shopfloor wagie's pay grade.The pellicles are custom for a start.
>>108437951I think ASML are pretty open about what they do and how their shit works, it's just such a complex process and fucking mental supply chain behind it, the chances of anyone successfully copying it anytime soon are slim to non-existent. Even the chinks couldn't take a machine apart without fucking it up - and I've seen exactly how thoroughly they reverse engineer shit, and these fuckers are like their Holy Grail. Just the optics on those EUV machines are x-million fantastically complex and hugely expensive parts, all of which manufactured by specialists like Zeiss. If a bluffer like Musk succeeds where the Chinks couldn't anytime in the next decade, I'll buy SpaceX stock myself. And I won't be doing that, trust me.
>>108434991>18AYou mean 10nm+++++++
>>108433662inorite, that trillionaire shit was just given to him by the international board of trillionaire shit. complete chance. could have been anyone.
>>108437791I'm to smart too do it.
>>108433234>Elon - "I think they're getting clean rooms wrong in these modern (chip) fabs. I'm going to make a bet here, that Tesla will have a 2nm fab, and I can eat a cheeseburder and smoke cock in the fab."
>>108433234>Doesn't seem too hard.Bruh.
8M3M
>>108435877They would also be selling their entire stock to these AI grifters, hopefully you realize that.
>>108436504the AI grift has been a endless money sink whole for now maybe Musk can pull off the same with his fab. Looking at his other companies however its all empty promises except spacex.
>>108433234>Tell Mutt he can't eat a burger in here>Mutt immediately chimps out Pottery
>>108433234what's the obsession with 3nm node when 99% of the technological world (MCUs and FPGAs in your car, industrial PLCs, etc.) run on legacy nodes?
>>108433234>TSMC>SamsungBuy their lithography machines from Israel. It has nothing to do with their own tech. They just own a transistor printer and have connections to secure raw materials.
the chinese employ child laborers to make single atom transistors 1 atom at a time
>>108435832https://web.archive.org/web/20191012175428/https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-all-7nm-developmentcouldn't afford to expand capacity when tsmc already had all the orders
>>108433234You need a very very very expensive machine made in teh Netherlands that are slow to make and no one knows how to copy. It really is that simple.
>>108443305>Buy their lithography machines from Israel.wrong.>>108443509>Netherlands
>>108443176>They would also be selling their entire stock to these AI griftersabsolutely, but even so the supply would be bigger
>>108443489Technically they're CO molecules and it's a visualization of data from a probe that physically scans the surface.
>>108437445Anon designing chips and manufacturing them are two entirely separate things with pretty much nothing in common and knowing how to do one gives you almost no advantage when doing the other.It's like saying "well company X programs cpus to do stuff, so designing their lwn CPU doesn't sound unbelievable".
>>108433234
>>108443548And he would have if he didn't have to divert resources to saving America from deranged leftists.
>>108443593>saving AmericaThere's no need for saving. Things progress fine.
>>108443641You are israeli.
>>108443659Not an argument.
>>108433234>Why can't Americans do it?The only thing elites in strategic decision making positions do, is outsourcing and offshoring in the name of profits.When Trump administration started talking about enforcing reshoring, CEOs started kvetching hard about raising H-1B limits because they'd rather hire cheap slaves from 3rd world than Americans.You guys are being robbed in plain day while being distracted by meaningless culture wars.I was always far from being a socialist but I'm starting to realize it is actually a late capitalist hellhole ruled by a caste of satanic pedophile billionaires.
>>108433275that can't possibly be true. once the process is known, you just need to repeat it.
lmao
