Fedora quietly solved Linux's update problem but nobody notices because they’re too busy distrohopping> offline updates just like Windows>updates create a whole new OS image like you’re installing from scratch every time>Brtfs go brrrWhy is no one talking about this?
>>108490660Its pretty annoying, requires double reboot and entering password twice if encrypted.
>>108490660>>updates create a whole new OS image like you’re installing from scratch every timeYou could do that with any Linux distro if you wanted. Doesn't make it any faster.>> offline updates just like WindowsLast time I downloaded a Windows update package, it broke the IME language bar so I can only use hotkeys to switch input types and installed the Canadian English language pack for no reason.
>Quietly implements age verification
>>108490660What was "broken" before it seemed fine to me on Mint and Ubuntu? >>108490724>Last time I downloaded a Windows update package, it broke the IME language bar so I can only use hotkeys to switch input types and installed the Canadian English language pack for no reason.This has been broken on Windows since Vista, multiple keyboard inputs are broken, if there's a mismatch between your display language and keyboard input i.e. British English and US Intl. you can be 100% sure something will break.
>>108490724Windows is getting so jeetcoded it's unreal, the other day i was making some adjustment to a techlet friend's office workstation, among the other things asked me to switch the primary mail in outlook and the damn thing also switched language at relaunch.>>108490660There was nothing to "fix" negro, it has been smooth sails since ever.
>>108490660>problemHow is the current method a problem? I fucking love it.
>>108490660> stupid solution by stupid zoomers, force stupid people.Say goodbye to your SSDs, Faggots.
>>108490773>pull a Linus Tech Shills and uninstall a key package>oops system broken, perhaps even unrecoverableMeanwhile on an immutable distro:>if you SOMEHOW MANAGE to fuck up the deployment by layering conflicting packages you reboot to the previous deploymentI use and recommend Fedora Atomic (Silverblue, Kinoite, COSMIC, Sway, Budgie).
>>108490660NixOS (a.k.a. TroonOS) has this solved much better.
>>108490799>oops system broken, perhaps even unrecoverableNo such thing as unrecoverable, unless it is a hardware issue or related to an encrypted disk. Worst case: I have to use a live environment and chroot to fix the issue.
>>108490801nixos does everything better but no one uses it but me and 3 guys in europe.
>>108490799>if you SOMEHOW MANAGE to fuck up the deployment by layering conflicting packages you reboot to the previous deploymentYou can accomplish the exact same thing with a filesystem like btrfs, without having to make your life miserable by containerizing every little thing and having an untouchable root filesystem. An immutable distro only benefits retards who don't know any better and might nuke their system (e.g. linus dick tips), and developers since they know everybody is using the same base OS image. Neither approach solves the issue of accumulated state over time like NixOS and Guix do.
>>108490870>You can accomplish the exact same thing with a filesystem like btrfs, without having to make your life miserable by containerizing every little thing and having an untouchable root filesystemfor some reason only OpenSuse and I think Garuda are doing that
>>108490746>This has been broken on Windows since Vista, multiple keyboard inputs are broken, if there's a mismatch between your display language and keyboard input i.e. British English and US Intl. you can be 100% sure something will break.Ok, but updates through Windows Update were fine, no problems there.
>>108490660Fedora quietly solved a "problem" that did not existed and now all the paid shills are gargling their chink transfem cocks like their lives depends on it.Fuck off, fucking die.
>>108490958>Ok, but updates through Windows Update were fineThat's probably just coincidence, the same thing has happened to me numerous times. Windows has other bugs related to non US English inputs too.
>>108490660The atomic spins? People talk about this all the time on here.
>>108490870>untouchable root filesystemSkill issue.
The offline update feature is nice to have but overkill most of the time. I've never used it on regular Fedora.Atomic, well people are talking about it, mostly Universal Blue. Base Silverblue isn't really ready to 100% replace regular Fedora editions yet. One big reason that's not easy to solve on Fedora's end is that flatpaks aren't really ready to totally replace GUI apps. Images like Bazzite preconfigure native packages for things like Steam instead and Bluefin does a ton of work to make container work friendly with IDEs. When it comes to, "Muh future of Linux" the Atomic crowd is really preachy but a lot of what they preach about has already been solved elsewhere. Modern BTRFS backup tools are good enough for most people. You can just use a flatpak heavy stack on a regular distro. I can see Atomic images being really attractive to companies that can build their own and put it on 500 machines just like that but regular desktop users don't really care about this kind of thing.
>>108490799>immutamemeno thanks, also not required as you can just do a filesystem snapshot before you update
>>108490795btrfs is CoW, tourist
>>108490799That might be a problem if I just said yes to removing stuff without understanding what it does or what goes with it. I'm not a dipshit though, so I don't do that kind of crap. Linus Sebastian would serve the world better by........ I keep thinking of simple jobs, but that fucker drops stuff all the time.
>>108490660There is something supremely off-putting to me about wording "I like the way Fedora does updates" as "Fedora quietly solved Linux's update problem".I bet that guy loves the smell of his own farts, that's the vibe I get.
>>108490660>update problem???
>>108490660Oh my GOD these GNU/NIGGERS are so allergic to the sensible and aryan solution of STATIC LINKING that they instead decide to make every program run in its own separate operating system and make every minor update duplicate your entire OSMillions of man hours wasted on packaging + millions of systems broken by EASILY AVOIDABLE SHIT due to this retardation due to GNU+retards kvetching about a few megabytes of space.
>>108491272How many .dll files do you have on your statically linked Windows machine?
What have they solved?openSUSE has atomic-updateRun an update, if it fails or has a conflict it doesn't go throughIf it does, a new image is created, and you can just restart and boot that new imageYou can easily rollback updatesAll done on tumbleweed, no read only needed
>>108490660are you talking about atomic distros?
>>108491339Shh, don't tell normies about openSuSe
>>108491348Fine I won't even tell them there's even a script to make that process automatic upon reboot/shutdown
>>108491214>btrfsUnstable slow ass mess
>>108490846can confirmt. guy in europe
>>108490660Yet another solution in search of a problem
>>108490930cachyos also does this ootb
>>108490971This is tinkerers heaven.You can try doing whatever the fuck you want and it's impossible to brick your system.Even overlaying stuff into the base system via rpm-ostree is still just as easily rollbackable.>>108490799> Fedora Atomic (Silverblue, Kinoite, COSMIC, Sway, Budgie).... Bazzite>>108490846Why are nixos generations better than ostree commits?
>>108490870> You can accomplish the exact same thing with a filesystem like btrfs, without having to make your life miserable by containerizing every little thing and having an untouchable root filesystem.What is really the difference? The fact that you have to micromanage snapshots manually with btrfs? And it's not like you don't benefit from containerizing things there, because, in additional to irrelevant containerization benefits, if you don't it will mean those apps will get into snapshots and can't stay independent and become more tightly coupled with the system. And it's not like you can't install everything into root filesystem on Fedora Atomic using rpm-ostree if you really wanted. It's just inferior due to coupling reasons and not worth it for anything that is possible to keep in distroboxes or flatpaks or brew.
>>108491664Bazzite is based (on Fedora) but also cringe— it isn't an official Fedora Atomic flavor and more for people who want to turn their desktop into a Steam OS type experience. Personally I don't have a problem with it, I'm sure there will be people who run it on their SteamCube™ hooked up to a TV with just a controller for input, but I was just listing the official flavors of Fedora Atomic. I don't see the need to use a "gaming distro" on a general purpose PC. Maybe more frequently updated drivers?
>>108490660This was a problem? I don't remember the last time an update has broken something and I use fucking Arch.
>>108490674ubuntu has tpm based fde. fedora already has secure boot so they should be able to figure it out and also not make it snap based.
>>108490660>updates create a whole new OS image like you’re installing from scratch every timeWhich is exactly how Windows does it.>take a fresh installation from the web>compare it against the local installation>surgically transplant the fresh version against the installed one>solves 99% of issuesNone of this atomic bullshit that does more harm than good.
>>108491747> I don't see the need to use a "gaming distro" on a general purpose PC. Maybe more frequently updated drivers?"Gaming distro" in this case is general purpose distro + tons of tweaks to ALSO improve gaming experience. It is also prepackaged with useful stuff like distrobox, flathub, brew, ujust scripts. More importantly, it does use CUSTOM KERNEL that claims to be about handheld devices tweaks but in practice if you scroll a bit you will see a lot of fixes just for general PC hardware:https://github.com/bazzite-org/kernel-bazzite/releases
>>108490660No thanks, not a fan of fedora
>>108490660The only fix for retardation is to give people knowledge.
>>108492009I look like this and make this face when I talk about Fedora.
>>108491339Came here to post it. It's kinda funny how hard the smug lizard moggs fedora.
>>108491286Windows doesn't need it because Microsoft solved DLL versioning hell decades ago.
>>108491435It's not 2019 anymore
>>108491339This is not only about OS updates, this is about all apps and dev dependencies as well. Your OS update might succeed but your installed dev dependencies might end up bricked to the point you will have to distrohop or reinstall everything because they end up in state where your C or even Python program doesn't work anymore. It's about guaranteed consistency of every component of the system and userspace at any point of time. A lot of it is achieved via sandboxing, some of it is achieved via ostree and similar. When you install anything into the root system via overlay it will also be a new snapshot, while in other systems dev dependencies easily end up in state that is incompatible with system after successfull system update. And what you describe - even Ubuntu had that kind of snapshots at some point, maybe still have.
>>108491272Internally it's all deduplicated though. In nixos it's deduplicated even on paper, because it's graph that references the same leafs, in ostree it's duplicates on paper, but deduplication is done as implementation detail, optimization, under the hood.
>>108490660nice way to rape your drive
>>108490799>>oops system broken, perhaps even unrecoverableSo Fedora the explorer became like Steam Arch and is immutable? Congrats, I guess... but that doesn't change:>>108490773>How is the current method a problem?. Current method is fine. Don't use a distro that unilaterally removes shit that is installed during updates?
>>108491272Has nothing to do with GNU.It's more that the modern developer is allergic to pure C.If you're using C++ or Rust, it's way more than a few megabytes.Even Golang failed to succeed with keeping static sizes down.Unless you go full pure C + musl autism, it's not really viable. And musl wasn't around 20 years ago, glibc was.
>>108491107The solution to this is to roll in the apps you want with sudo rpm-ostree install blah blah I'm one of the few people who actually like Microsoft edge and the nice thing is I can use the rpm edge maintained by Microsoft, roll it directly into the image, and not have to use that bullshit package maintained by some no name on flatpak. One particular use case. I like silver blue amd think the a/b partition schema is a good one.
>>108490660I have refused to use Arch, Gentoo and other bs distros for like a decade, no matter how hard they were shilled from every direction in any tech community.I only used what works and gets the job done. But now they've done it. I am literally going to compile Gentoo rn. I cannot believe this. It's actually going to happen. Surreal.
>>108490660fedoras firefox package has red hat ads built into it. worse than windows
>>108494035It has mozilla's spyware as well, you should not use it anyway. LibreWolf exist. You can even use Tor Browser with tor itself being disabled to prevent it from potentially spying on you ocassionally lmao
>>108490660Have they gotten rid of systemd cancer?No? NOT INTERESTED then
>>108490846>NiggsOSLiterally not a single advantage over any other distro.
>>108491791Requiring secure boot to update linux is retarded as Microsoft is the only party signing the shim binaries.
Luddite hobbyists ittThis is genuinely an amazing feature and in line with their goals to capture enterprise marketshare
>>108490660Doesn't that only happen on Kinoite or whatever?
>>108491730>What is really the difference?btrfs snapshots can be far more granular and flexible, for one. You can snapshot whenever you want, set it on a schedule, or hook it into different system behaviors. You can back up whatever part of the system you want (/home, /etc, etc.) and capture the whole root filesystem if you want, and also roll back just the parts you want to rollback if something goes wrong. They are also more efficient and take up less space by virtue of btrfs being CoW.>The fact that you have to micromanage snapshots manually with btrfs? What makes you think this is how it works? There are packages that will set up btrfs snapshot hooks for package manager operations, and also packages that will set up boot entries for your generated snapshots. The end result is functionally the same as picking an older OS image to roll back to on an immutable distro.>And it's not like you don't benefit from containerizing things>And it's not like you can't install everything into root filesystem on Fedora Atomic using rpm-ostree if you really wantedI mean, you can just as well make this argument in the opposite direction. If you can effectively get all of the benefits of an immutable distro while retaining the flexibility of a traditional distro, why would you use a distro that's inherently limiting and gets in your way? >>108491064
>>108494591It's also great for consoomers since modern Windows has been based on an enterprise targeting product that is Windows NT, and a lot of the "just werks" benefits of Windows are the things Microsoft does for the enterprise clients. Red Hat following the same footsteps with RHEL/Fedora is very good indeed.
I've never had offline updates enabled and I have yet to see a single issue caused by this in years of use
>>108494844>And it's not like you can't install everything into root filesystem on Fedora Atomic using rpm-ostree if you really wantedI don't use rpm-ostree layering to add what I want. I use gitops and a build system to just install everything exactly like I would on fedora workstation. Then I pull my image from that and also make a live boot ISO from it. Basic modern linux systems administration. You shouldn't be layering dependency hell packages with rpm-ostree.
>>108494844> If you can effectively get all of the benefits of an immutable distro while retaining the flexibility of a traditional distro, why would you use a distro that's inherently limiting and gets in your way?It just seems to me that one requires much less work and careful driving to not fuck anything up than another. You can forget to do proper snapshot at proper moment, you can snapshot less or more than actually needed, you can do a mistake with hooks that are supposed to manage snapshots, etc. With immutable distro you're not even required to understand, it just works. With more understanding you can use it more efficiently, without understanding you still won't be able to break it easily. >>108495324That's interesting, I'm not sure I understand what you described though. How do you stay in sync with upstream updates? Do you somehow pull their changes on top of yours periodically?
>>108496376>That's interesting, I'm not sure I understand what you described though. How do you stay in sync with upstream updates? Do you somehow pull their changes on top of yours periodically?Yeah. Basically what happens is you call a bash script from a containerfile, then you use dnf5 to install everything like you would on a regular fedora install and run any other terminal commands you need to run, and then after that you have an image that you can upgrade from to your PC with whatever customization you want. Exactly what Bazzite does. You can optionally create a live boot ISO installer too. But you're not applying their changes over top of yours. You're applying your changes over top of theirs, every single time they release an update.Staying in sync is easy. You pull from silverblue or ublue or whatever image you want to build on top of, and everytime they push out a new image, the build system automatically applies your containerfile/bash patch to it. You get a notification if it's successful, in which case just update your system normally by running rpm-ostree upgrade or using the GUI, same as always; or you get a notification that the patch failed for whatever reason (usually on a new major release of the parent image) and you go debug it, similarly to how you'd debug your own system if you were just doing a regular update on fedora workstation, except you didn't just install a broken update to your PC, you tried and failed to apply a patch with your build system and it failed and didn't create a new image. You can also set first-run scripts for the live installer to automatically fetch your backups and shit like that. It's honestly pretty easy once you figure it out for the first time.Here's ublue's verbose instructions: https://github.com/ublue-os/image-templateThis is the only file you really need to modify:https://github.com/ublue-os/image-template/blob/main/build_files/build.shI don't think this one does the live ISO creation though.
>>108496376If you look at the bazzite image containerfile it gives a good idea of what a more advanced version of this looks like, but it's still mostly just terminal commands that you'd probably mostly recognize. https://github.com/ublue-os/bazzite/blob/main/Containerfile
>>108496536What's the benefit over installing stuff using rpm-ostree? Is it that you can install a lot of stuff at once instead of rebuilding image after every install? I'm not sure if it's possible to rpm-ostree install a dozen packages just in a single call in atomic unit of work, but it could be.
>>108496376>It just seems to me that one requires much less work and careful driving to not fuck anything up than another. You can forget to do proper snapshot at proper moment, you can snapshot less or more than actually needed, you can do a mistake with hooks that are supposed to manage snapshots, etc.Not really. You're really overestimating how much goes into it. On a distro like Arch, most of this is handled for you by installing a handful of packages which provide the hooks, and doing maybe a minute or two of configuration. >With immutable distro you're not even required to understand, it just works.Fair enough, but you can just as well have a normal distro with all of this configured OOTB. OpenSUSE does this, for instance, it's been one of its big selling points for a long time.
>>108496859>What's the benefit over installing stuff using rpm-ostree?Depends what you want to do with it. If you're just installing things from the fedora repos then layering is probably the way to go. If you want to do something like add a custom kernel or modify the system services in a significant way or anything advanced like that it's much much easier doing it this way than trying to modify your live system.The big use of this kind of approach is for devs to create distro spins specifically for a certain piece of hardware, like a handheld game console, or a particular laptop model, or things like that. Or to use it to make your own distro like the Bazzite people did. Using rpm-ostree to layer packages is all most people would need though. But if you're using a build system to create these images already for something somewhat advanced, you might as well just install those packages from the build system instead of locally to save yourself a step.The way I do it is basically making my own special snowflake distro just for me. Very overkill for almost anybody (including me), but I like it.
>>108490660>update problemLinux has no update problem they are literally painless and easy, its why I switched from windows to linux in the first place.If updates get fucked up across linux I'm going to fucking rope.
>>108494227don't care. if fedora and ubuntu can make it work it's not a problem. you need secure boot for tpm based fde.
I've used apt for decades with no trouble
>>108494227Idk how but Bazzite solved it:> $ ujust | rg secure> - enroll-secure-boot-key # Enroll Nvidia driver & KMOD signing key for secure boot - Enter password "universalblue" if promptedhttps://docs.bazzite.gg/General/Installation_Guide/secure_boot/
>>108498153Bazzite does it the same way as fedora. They use Microsoft signed keys.
>>108498197Do they need to ask for permission? Can Microsoft theoretically demand some distro to implement id verification in exchange for allowing them to use signing keys?
