A lot of people don't like defense contractors

>>108730341
A lot of people use Linux to get away from corporate-backed OSes (Microsoft and Apple). I think they worry about Red Hat being more of the same.
I think what they don't understand is that the entire Linux world is largely corporate-driven at this point. Corporate-paid devs contribute to the kernel, proton is developed by the Valve Corporation, etc. You can't really escape it.

>>108730341
It's contrarianism. It's the same type of people who idolise Ted Kaczynski. People misidentify the problems with capitalism, profit motives, private ownership, etc. and fail to understand why good things are good and bad things are bad.
They don't understand that Microsoft and Apple are trying to lock people into paying them for services and those incentives lead them to make operating systems which restrict their users by design, they instead look to for a factor to vaguely gesture to without engaging in any actual underlying reasoning. Nor do they acknowledge that the actual developers at Apple and Microsoft could easily and quickly fix many and most issues users encounter, but prevented to because of obtuse processes which are built to defend the hierarchial structures of control within those companies. Which leads them to jump to the conclusions of "it's bad because woke" or "it's bad because corpo"
Red Hat is able to make an OS which is able to respect end users by having an incentive structure which is indifferent to them. People who use Fedora are simply beta testers for RHEL. Red Hat extracts their revenue from other corporations, rather than from end users.

i dont get the hate towards red hat, other big enterprises are developing on linux (even bigger ones, like google, nvidia, amd, intel, meta, and so on), i guess its because they are the only dominant force on the desktop space
still, you can choose what you run: you can like wayland and dislike systemd, you can like pipewire and dislike pulse, you can pick and choose your experience
its not that if you like something that was pushed by red hat, it doesnt mean you have to go full gnome, systemd, pulse, pipewire, etc etc etc
on the other hand, if you dislike something of theirs, it doesnt mean you have to go full xlibre, sysv init, seatd and refuse to use dbus
tailor to your experience, do what you like, use what you prefer, study the protocols, use the software, see the code and decide for yourself

They make business decisions which are often seen as selfish due to being business decisions.

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Red Hat is the reason Linux itself got so popular in the enterprise space. Open source projects nowadays get investment crumbs but the biggest crumbs are usually from Red Hat, they even contract developers/maintainers for specific projects or drivers.

>>108730341
>chuds hate them because "big corporations le bad"
chuds hate a lot of things for no particuarly good reason
without red hat, linux would be 10 years behind technically
and them charging money to pay their devs is somehow controversial despite offering multiple free distros and financing or developing a fuckton quality of OSS alternatives to otherwise entirely proprietary markets

red hat is pretty cool and /g/ contrarians are monumental faggots as always

>>108730341
ITT Red Hat shills. Canonical is basically the same thing, but people hate them.

Also upstart was better than systemd and unity was a better DE than current gnome.

They are the great Satan.

>>108733773
unity still sucked.
But OP is stupid bait.
Hate for Red Hat is not that intense, and the reason "big corporations are bad" in the software world is that they tend to sell BS to executives and as a result, deliver bad software.

Foreman is a great example. It was garbage software before Red Hat bought it, rebranded it as Satellite and added some annoying license&registration features. Foreman not being "le big corporation" didn't make it not shit. It's shit because it was designed as a reporting tool and was repurposed into a provisioning tool, so it's really bad at the part people actually buy it for. But fewer people were forced to use it because you didn't have sales teams selling it to the high-level managers who don't use the software at all but decide what the sysadmins (or "DevOps" or wtfever dumb name the OS/platform operations guys are called at your company) have to use.

>>108730341
I think a majority of the hate comes from them killing off CentOS and replacing it with that CentOS Stream bullshit which is basically just fedora but older

either way just use alma or rocky linux instead, they also monetize off RHEL for companies who don't use developer accounts and it is expensive as fuck, around the same cost as it is to activate windows

>>108730341
Systemd + Enterprise grifters

>>108734093
How on earth could you call them grifters?

>>108730341
They sleep with the NSA and installed the systemD backdoor.

linux is a red hat employee

>>108730341
they killed CentOS

>>108730341
Red Hat members are immature and let's politics affect their decision making. They have lots of influence over the most popular Linux software so most of the biggest problems in Linux can be traced back to them in some way.
For example Vaxry was involved with Wayland because he made a compositor, he made improvements including standardizing the cursor. But he was banned because a tranny at Red Hat stalked his personal Discord server and was offended by a they/them joke.
>>108732038
>you can choose what you run
Except when you can't. There's no alternative to dbus and they're choking X support.

>>108735343
Yeah, the entire linux world is an absolute cluster fuck of retardation. There’s some gems here and there, but now I want no part in it.

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>>108730341
They don't have a purpose except to be "Red Hat" in enterprise space. You need to buy "Red Hat" because "Red Hat", it's a circular argument, just like Microsoft. Comapnies buy Red Hat because Red Hat is business, and it is business because business, and Red Hat is business, and business, so Red Hat.

But in reality they serve no purpose. Their customer service is poor, their distributions are poor, they don't add anything to your company except to have the Red Hat stamp of approval that you are doing very serious business.

They also are rifle with troon politics and were behind Systemd, dbus, and stuff many people don't especially like. But mostly, they serve no real purpose.

>>108735587
If you’re trying to use Linux without Red Hat software, you might as well just go to FreeBSD. Even then, you’ll still find their tentacles if you start trying to run GUI software.

>>108735513
Same, considering FreeBSD at this point.

>>108735637
It’s fine for playing around in a VM, but quite annoying for desktop use on bare metal. A lot of things rely on linux compatibility layers.

I’ve given up on FOSS and just put up with Windows11. With a bit of tweaking it does work and doesn’t really get in my way.

It is very tempting to just go full Terry schizo and make my own OS. I’ll just pretend an LLM is God talking to me and let it guide my hand.

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>>108735607
Because of Systemd and Dbus, both of which are extremely, extremely contentious. Saying "Redhat made Systemd and Dbus and forced all other distributions to use it" isn't a win, it's a net loss for Red Hat.

Beyond that, they made no real contributions to the ecosystem. They made actually very, very few contributions to the ecosystem now that I think about it and am trying very hard to think what they _did_.

But yeah, mostly, Red Hat the company is just a scam on businesses, and Fedora is an overpriced piece of shit. Like it or hate it.

They used to be okay, now they're just another tool for IBM to gyp other corpos with.

>>108730341
1- Big corporations bad

2- Being acquired by an even larger corporation (IBM) bad

3- Military targeting system contracts with the US military bad

4- Buying out CoreOS to cannibalize tech/talent and shut down a competitor bad

5- Making Red Hat Enterprise Linux closed-source bad

6- New standarized technology that violate the "Unix Way", such as systemd/Wayland/Pipewire/Flatpaks bad

>>108735744
They also did pulseaudio.

Thankfully, they didn't do Wayland, or it would have used dbus, and that kind of retardation would have been unbearable. Wayland grew up in spite of Red Hat, thankfully (God will, it will stay that way).

>>108735744
>trying very hard to think what they _did_.
You’re glib. They’re one of the biggest contributors to the linux kernel.

>>108735908
thankfully, Google, Intel, and Facebook are there to counterbalance them.

Or it would have been a disaster.

>When the best thing you can say about a company is that Google and Facebook counterbalance them in the *right* direction

>>108735794
>New standarized technology that violate the "Unix Way", such as systemd/Wayland/Pipewire/Flatpaks
Most Linux users have never been strict adherents to Unix philosophy. Before systemd the average distro had its own ad hoc pile of bullshit that was not simple in the slightest.
Wayland is pretty shit though.

>>108735932
If you look at userland there’s probably no bigger contributor than Red Hat.

>>108735943
I’m a bit tired of hearing about ‘muh Unix Way’, it’s not the system that made it. The success of Windows shows how users actually want their computers to work. Even ‘certified UNIX’ Mac OS doesn’t really expose unix tools to their average users.

>>108735943
Wayland isn't shit. It's actually far less shit that Systemd. It's just a small piece of code that handle the GPU giving a buffer to the userspace for the userspace to draw whatever it wants on it (with GPU accelerated libraries). It replaces X.Org which is 500,000 lines of code targeted at anything but actually doing the work of giving a GPU buffer to userspace.

Wayland was started in 2014, when X.Org devs discovered the iPhone, and discovered that iPhones just have a simple syscall to get a GPU buffer, not an absurd monolithic mongoloid server, and asked themselves: are all the 1 millions line of codes of X.Org (then) necessary? All the X.Org devs switched to Wayland in the next two years.

Nvidia shat all over the idea and made a mess for a decade, but it's what Nvidia will do.

The replacement to Wayland should have happened ten years ago. The fact we're still not there is a failure on every level.

>>108735817
If only, lol
Wayland had so much potential.

>>108735949
Systemd, dbus, pulseaudio. Three failures. Those are extremely difficult to get good will in the community. Even now, Red Hat is associated with them.

>>108735967
Every major distro adopted systemd. The people raging about it are just malcontents on tech forums. I don’t even use linux as a daily driver, but It’s really weird watching the ‘community’ try to avoid succeeding in every way possible.

>>108730341
Agent Poettering's systemd-udev clusterfuck has a lot to do with it.

>>108735956
Well, I'm not really sure how true that is, either. Windows succeeding had very little to do with Microsoft turning it into VMS' inbred nephew.
>>108735959
Wayland was fucking useless when it was "just <insert lame excuse here>" and the current, semi-usable version of it is quite a hacky mess that requires you to defile yourself with D-Bus for many things. And it still suffers from a fundamental issue of security theater over functionality.
Yes, Nvidia were being a bunch of gay retards when they refused to play ball, but that is unrelated.

>>108735658
I don't think going back to Windows is the answer but I get the urge to go Terry Davis mode too. Gentoo and FreeBSD is like a lite version of that though.
Theoretically, FreeBSD + compatibility layers + Trinity + Xlibre would be the furthest you can get while still having a usable desktop. Trinity still uses DCOP so you can get away with not using DBUS for the most part. And you can opt out a lot of the other stuff in the ports.

>>108736035
>I don't think going back to Windows is the answer
It's an easy way out for neurotic people with all-or-nothing mentality

>>108736086
Fair enough

>>108735658
It's so telling that the people who complain about Red Hat, SystemD and Wayland are actually w*ndows users

>>108730341
>Forces systemd
>Forces wayland
>Removing freedom and choice from Linux
Hmmmm

>>108736114
Wrong actually, I'm a Windows user and defend Red Hat, SystemD and Wayland. I think you need an aggressive corporation to force things through in order to bully the community into compliance. Otherwise linux on the desktop will never ascend from a hobbyOS that is ignore by commercial software vendors.

My problems with linux, is that the dev community rejects good ideas for silly reasons, is always in some internecine battle with a rival faction, and there's endless fallings out over imaginary nazis.

>>108736361
nta, but the only reason why I dislike systemd is that it’s trying to do too much. I’m not even talking about unix philosophy, even something basic like logging (journald) is completely retarded on so many levels.

At work I’ve managed to convince some of my colleagues to replace (bypass) journald with syslog-ng + lnav for log querying and everyone, including the diehard systemd enjoyer, had to agree that binary logs are a terrible idea. And the worst thing is that you cannot completely disable journald, only bypass it. Systemd is full of this nonsense.

>>108736245
It's not RedHat's fault nobody wants to build anything on your shitty freetard standard.

>>108733773
I dislike Canonical and Ubuntu for the same reason I dislike Microsoft and Windows. They are anti-user.
The OS has built-in ads. They hijack user workflows to coerce people into using more of their products (hijacking the apt command to install snap packages instead).
I just want an OS to get out of the way and let me use my computer.

>>108736245
Do you genuinely think people are rubbing their hands together scheming on how to make people change their init system and window compositor? There is not one piece of software which Red Hat is forcing you to use. If systemd and wayland work better than the alterntives, that's what other developers will choose to support. You're still free to use shitter and worse software if you wish to. You're stuck between not wanting to use functional software becsuse it's too mainstream, and upset that your shitty software choices aren't mainstream.

>>108735343
>There's no alternative to dbus
what else should be done? every DE having their own IPC protocol? the most annoying part of wayland is that every implementation have their quirks that fuck up with compatibility between compositors. adding that to IPC between clients would be hell
also vaxry is making his dbus replacement, lets see where it goes
>they're choking X support.
wayland was created specifically to kill X by X maintainers, no wonder it doesnt get new features, its in full legacy support
still theres xlibre and the openbsd implementation, and you can just use x, if an application is wayland only you can run through a lightweight compositor like tinywl on top of x

>>108734994
It's FOSS sofware. Where is the backdoor?

>>108735343
>There's no alternative to dbus
You can always take dtrain or ride dbike.

>>108738124
or ride a tgirl?

>>108735343
>But he was banned because a tranny at Red Hat stalked his personal Discord server and was offended by a they/them joke.
grim if true
sauce?

>>108735959
Wayland sucks. Besides what it drops support for outright wayland's entire philosophy is
>you have a problem with the display server?
>nuh uh m8 that's a compositor problem
>not my problem
>I'm just a protocol
>issue closed
It's extremely fucking gay and it just punts every issue onto everyone else and expects everyone to reinvent the wheel 10 times is incompatible ways. What wayland's broader ecosystem looks like is a natural conclusion, the only conclusion, which can follow from their design.

>>108738789
In reality there's at most 2 competing standards for anything in Waland, and if you stop using obsolete software you won't have so many problems.

>>108730341
I don't like they are owned by IBM. Or how they undermine the GPL. But i do like they actually ship a quality product. Fedora just works. Its stable. Its secure. People actually get paid to develop it. So its a double edged sword really.

>>108738941
Yes anon we get it no need to harp on the same excuses for the bad quality software that is emergent from your bad design.

>>108738981
>everything that breaks compatibility with my pet app is bad design

>>108739042
Yes? Breaking shit is an admission to bad design, bad enough that it has to be radically changed to the point where users are negatively impacted and require man hours to fix the mess the changes have caused. This is SWE 101 by the way.

>>108739464
So are you saying X is a bad design because it forced a compatibility break for modern displays, or Linux is a bad design for not being able to run old Honeywell punchcards?
>This is SWE
SWE is the field where when your software has more bugs than you can count, you treat software as an entity which naturally produces bugs instead of not being a fucking nigger. Nobody should care what software """engineers""" think.

>>108738941
Just use Firefox and discord and you won't have any problems, there is no use case for any other software, anything i don't personally use is obsolete

>>108739748
>it's wayland's fault my pet app doesn't support wayland after 20 years

>>108730341
Because they are anti-white. Eye for an eye.

>>108739790
Yeah that's Wayland’s fault, it should not exist at all, but that would make Linux actually popular and great and they can't have that, so we wasted 20 years reinventing the wheel. Amazing.

>>108730341
They're the largest contributors to Wayland, Gnome, and SystemD. All of which are extremely controversial.

I personally only hate Gnome, but I'm not a fan of SystemD and Wayland being forced up my ass as far as it is; I like my current WM and init just fine.

>>108740050
Yet somehow Linux is more popular than ever and most people are running Wayland with no problems.

>>108740050
>so we wasted 20 years reinventing the wheel.
the wheel was square

>>108730341
>>108730614
>>108731014
>>108732038
>>108733693
Hello rabbis.

The reason people hate you is because you're the ones pushing for Systemd, dbus, wayland, pulseaudio etc. - the cancer that tells users that established and working solutions are ze outdated, unmaintainable and antisemitic and we need to replace them with newer, totally-not-controlled-by-RedHat™ alternatives that only serve to

a) make Linux less stable so that it's never a serious threat to corporations in the desktop market

b) give RedHat better control over the ecosystem, so that they have better control over the business market

And then you bully people that refuse to implement your shit into their distros.

>>108740453
>And then you bully people that refuse to implement your shit into their distros.
So grow a backbone and make your own distro. What? You can't because you don't know how? That's too bad.

>>108740461
No need, I use OpenBSD (I am a white man after all).

>>108738083
>Do you genuinely think people are rubbing their hands together scheming on how to make people change their init system
Basically, yes.
> If systemd and wayland work better than the alterntives, that's what other developers will choose to support.
Devs didn't get to choose systemd it was chosen for them that's the whole point if you don't understand this you don't know the history. Wayland has a different history though, they shouldn't be lumped together.

>>108740453
>a) make Linux less stable so that it's never a serious threat to corporations in the desktop market
Every corporate desktop OS uses even more bloated versions of these.
>b) give RedHat better control over the ecosystem, so that they have better control over the business market
End users should care because...
>And then you bully people that refuse to implement your shit into their distros.
If they get bullied it's because their freetard shit keeps breaking. Nobody is lining up to abuse OpenWRT or Gentoo.

>>108740474
What exactly do on your desktop? Last I checked openBSD supports nothing, whether it be software or hardware.

>>108740535
I use the internet and I write C and Lua. What else would I be doing.

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>>108740453
bla bla bla it didn't seem very intelligent of a message at first glance so I didn't read it, sorry anon

No one gives shit to Fedora about btrfs, pipewire, flatpak, plymouth, podman, cockpit anymore. Turns out everyone adopts what Fedora introduces first.

>>108733773
TIL ChromeOS still uses Upstart

>>108741497
Even on Fedora, you literally don't have to use any of those things if you don't want/need them, except maybe for Pipewire.

>>108738084
>what else should be done?
I honestly don't know. Trinity still has DCOP, but it's the type of thing where you have to convince every app developer to support it. Maybe a compatibility layer of some kind?
>still theres xlibre and the openbsd implementation
Yes, I advocate for Xlibre to be the new standard. Wayland should be the alternative if you need an environment where a Wayland compositor might make more sense.
By choking X out though I mean how they're adding pop-ups to certain distros when running X apps warning users the app might be "unsecure" and "legacy". And they're purposely removing existing support from GUI libraries.

In the bigger picture the only way we will win would be if there was an alternative to the entire FDO. Instead of trying to replace individual components like Xlibre we need an entire organization defining standards and protocols to create a fully functional desktop.
>>108738334
>sauce
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2024-fdo-and-redhat2

>>108738083
>Do you genuinely think people are rubbing their hands together scheming on how to make people change their init system and window compositor?
Actually yes. I don't have the screenshots but these weird fucks were happy of being able to killing x11 and pushing Wayland. It was not something natural. About systemDemon the guy pushing it is from Microsoft. No reason to say anything else, Microsoft's wet dream is to kill Linux or turn it to be as bad as windows.

>>108738083
If we play devil's advocate and adopt the "the purpose of something is what it does" mindset, there is something potentially suspect for both.
1. systemd standardizes Linux but makes it very very difficult to remove. Because of this, all Linux Distros using it cannot really say no to changes made unless they want to fork it (huge undertaking) or switch (even larger undertaking). They could have just made a simple init + supervisor program and pushed it as the new standard.
2. Wayland makes it much harder for people to make WM, DEs, and applications. Cosmic having so many struggles, the glacial pace Cinnamon and Qtile took to get Wayland support, and the limited WMs highlight this. Plus each DE uses its own packages which work differently. Xorg was a bug code base, but it was a reliable foundation. If it worked one one machines X11 it'd probably work on another's.

So it could easily be argued RedHat/free desktop.org/IBM/etc want to make it difficult for literal whos to make alternatives to what they make, and they want all the other distros to fall in line with their upstream choices.

>>108742232
>Yes, I advocate for Xlibre to be the new standard. Wayland should be the alternative if you need an environment where a Wayland compositor might make more sense.
why should X be the standard? there's no point on having it as the standard for anything, a lot of things that X did by the definition of the protocol were put into independent libraries (like font rendering with freetype) or they separated from the X implementation so it wouldn't be tied to the protocol (like xkb)
the problem with X is that it's not a display protocol, it does everything under the sun necessary in the 90's for a computer to look decent
if you want an X implementation to be compliant with X11, you have to implement so much shit that no one making a well-done application will ever use
thats why the faggots at suckless could market their software as bloat-free, because behind those 2k LoC, there was a monolith doing the work
im studying the wayland protocol, im trying to make a compositor on wlroots and it fucking sucks, it's confusing, wlroots already abstracts so much if you use all their APIs and if you want to do more complex compositing, you need to implement so much stuff on your own
but at least you know what the compositor is doing instead of just hoping the implementation of X is good enough for what you want
if you just want to take care of window logic and dont care about the protocol, make a plugin for kde, river now has a protocol too for making window managers, hyprland also has different window logic with plugin, there are a fuck ton of options
the thing i hate the most about the twm scene on wayland is that it seems everyone is scrambling to become the new X