>>108853966
>Minecraft was written in Java
That was almost 15 years ago lil bro, time to let it go. There will never be a Minecraft 2, they aren't even working on it. Notch has not accomplished a single noteworthy thing since he got lucky by stealing the right idea at the right time.

>>108854002
nah he has a point, we see consistently in gamedev that the retarded underdog with a duct taped together game written in a broken down piece of shit framework wins

Sucks to suck. Most of the online "game dev" crowd are nepo and fund babies and shouldn't be listened to. Bunch of pretentious little fellas

>>108854013
>The worse it is the better
Nice hot take retard

it's sad watching jblow constantly fail because he is obviously very intelligent, is seemingly quite disciplined in his work, and has many based takes. Only by some sad twist of fate was he relegated to creating video gaymes instead of engineering CPUs or something.

>>108854013
>>108854042
That's literally what happens doe. Ever heard of Toby Fox?
>>108854063
He needs a woman in his life.

>>108854002
Notch is writing his next game in TypeScript and WebGL

>>108854002
Notch is not acting like a game dev god, unlike those two clowns.

>>108854083
based af, own the pseuds

>>108854063
>Only by some sad twist of fate was he relegated to creating video gaymes instead of engineering CPUs or something

Maybe it's because he isn't as brilliant as you seem to think he is?
Gamedev isn't known for attracting top engineering talent

>>108853966
Casey Muratori's animation library that he wrote in the early 2000's was used in 2023 game of the year Baldur's Gate 3.

>>108854082
>He needs a woman in his life.
Anon, I don't think he likes women like that...

>>108854013
very true
>>108854042
the truth that makes you and those two ragebait idiots seethe so hard is that for most things coding is just a means to an end and not some central pillar of software
if you dont want to take years upon years on your projects you have to either give up your schizo dealbreakers or only do projects where the code itself is the only thing you care about (e.g. demoscene)

>>108854093
That's just wrong. He has a different way of going about it, less inflammatory, a more fervent fan base eager to suck his dick, but his twitter is full of hot takes.

>>108854063
But objectively speaking he's not failing.
It's just that he has unreasonable expectations.

The only reason Quake and Doom were well made was because that was the minimum viable code for what the game were trying to do and it still wasn't enough.

Just have a good idea. Make it work well enough to run on a modern machine. Improve performance only to meet your goals but know when you're giving yourself absurd task.

If Carmack knew this he would've made a decent game since Quake rather than spend ages making tech demos.

>>108853966
there is literally zero online game discourse regarding these two. ones a retired AAA dev and ones a indie dev. the discourse they create is around generic programming takes and the quality of software. all actual game dev discourse is about unreal and unity and AAA studios.

>>108853966
>Those are my kids’ childhoods.
Ok

>>108854083
Is it possible or is it a joke post? I don't know much about programming

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>>108854529
>If Carmack knew this he would've made a decent game since Quake rather than spend ages making tech demos.
Carmack's penchant for extreme optimization isn't his downfall. He excels at that. His downfall is that he doesn't have a good "ideas" guy to present him with an ambitious and flavorful vision to realize.

That was Romero. And since they split Carmack has made technically impressive, yet soulless games. And Romero made Daikatana, a game dripping with soul and flavor obliterated by its lack of technical prowess.

>>108854002
Notch single handedly changed the video gaming industry. Not only he made his game alone with java but was also selling it only on its web1.0 website without relying on stores like steam. He was using his own personal PayPal account that got blocked because of having too much money.

It's very funny when game Devs get uppity about shit
Congratulations bro you spent your life optimising frametimes for a medium primarily consumed by children
You could have worked on something like computational biology or AI, but you're really clever and decided that Timmy getting 60fps on faggotsimulator2026 for iOS was a more urgent problem

>>108853966
Blow typically has good takes, but muratoni is a complete retard and basically coasts on the credentials of having worked on a crappy little bit of middleware that AAA game studios jumped on for their video players because it was the dark ages and there was basically no open source option.

>>108855153
not a joke, look at his blog or whatever he uses now
he's always pumping some impressive stuff that goes nowhere

>>108853966
I am always flabbergasted by it. It's one thing that they have egos the size of a solar system, but why are people sucking their dicks? Especially people who should know better. The witness was one of the worst optimized games ever, clearly showing blow job has no idea how to program at a basic level. But the dicksuckers claim the pair are literal geniuses and such, and people who rightfully point out the countless flaws in their statements and arguments get vilified by them. How? Why?

>>108854172
>intern wrote some tests for software written by dozens of devs
>that means he wrote the whole software

>>108855542
Blow has only 3 types of takes.
Those he copy-pasted from soneone else and clearly doesn't understand.
Those that everyone else has held for decades.
Unbelievably retarded takes that anyone who agrees with them obviously belongs in a retard institution.

>>108855967
Then, on 17th June (34 days after launch), Blow stated the game had "sold horribly". "It depends on what your standards are," he said. "It's sold well if you compare it to nostalgic things like the Jeff Minter game that's on Steam or Atari 50. It's sold much better than all of those but it still has sold like dog shit compared to what we need to make for the company to survive.

"The future is uncertain, let's put it that way," he concluded. "It hasn't been good."

Blow reiterated sales have "been utterly terrible" on 21st July and then again on 22nd July, adding on the latter that console platforms "are dead now" with Steam as the game's biggest platform.

Referring to commentary added in the Anniversary Edition, Blow said: "At some point, you just have to know that what you did was a good thing even if the world doesn't really acknowledge it and this is one of those cases I think."

He then stated the likes of cons and events, as well as most YouTube interviews and podcasts, aren't useful for promotion.

Finally, on 27th July, Blow noted the "whole industry is having a hard time" and then, when asked how many of his development team are working on the compiler for programming language Jai, Blow replied: "None, because we can't afford to pay anyone because the sales are bad."

wasnt Casey working on a game?

>>108853966
both casey and blow have helped in the development in multiple games. What have you done?

>>108856103
I have helped in the development of more games than they ever did despite the fact that I also helped in the development of several cancer therapies, leading to 3 candidates currently in clinical trials. I also have patents for some of my work in dialogue systems. 3 entirely different areas and yet I'm more accomplished in each of them than they are in their entire focus.

>>108856238
whinning on steam reviews isn't helping development, chud

>>108853966
Blow is a legit gamedev, can't say the same for Casey as I don't know what he works on.
Maybe he retired after the company got sold for epic?

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>>108855978
lol
lmao

>>108856429
I did all the programming in one of them, another I did all the gameplay, but networking and graphics were two other people. The third I did about 70% of the programming.

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>>108853966
i knew i read this before somewhere!

>>108856238
>>108856517
Your life must be really sad that you have to make up lies to justify your hatred for ecelebs.

>>108856762
nta, uuuhhh those seem like pretty standard achievements for a seasoned programmer. it all depends on which company you work for.

>>108853966
what are they wrong about?

>>108853966
Man goes to anon. Says he's depressed. Says programming is retarded and over-complicated. Says he feels all alone in a stupid profession where what lies ahead is indian and slop. Anon says, "Treatment is simple. Memedev Muratori is streaming tonight. Go and watch him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But anon...I am Muratori.”

I couldn't help but read OP's post as if it was just a bunch of clown honks.
The irony of calling anyone else a clown.

>>108856762
It's not called mental illness for nothing.

>>108856238
You have done all of these things and yet you choose to spend your time going out of your way to berate others.
As a result, in my judgment; your accomplishments moot, and your merit nil because your soul has rot.

>>108856762
My peers have fairly similar overall life experiences and achievements, there's nothing particularly impressive about what I mentioned. Maybe you should look at yourself if that's what you get out of reading this.

>>108856932
Bro, my point was basically the same as yours (except not said in a retarded and clearly envious way). Shit's not all that impressive, but the two clowns in OP are even less impressive. So where's the hubbub?

>>108856238
>>108856936
>more games than they ever did
>even less impressive
Quality over quantity. And relativity.
Jon has worked on fewer games than you, but I know and have played each one of them.
Maybe you've published 500 games. How many of them are good and known.

>>108856943
How many of jon's games are good and known? None. Braid was only a success for being at the right place and time, just like candy crush or angry birds. The rest were unmitigated failures. Even the anniversary edition of braid was a total bust. What quality?
What game did Muratori make?

>>108856956
Anon for the benefit of respecting both your time and mine I will short circuit this argument.
The fact that you are making a thread about this man shows that he is more relevant than most people even to yourself.
You took time out of your day to try and talk down about his accomplishments while trying to talk your own up.
Is it not obvious how this comes across?

>What game did Muratori make?
Muratori is not really a game developer, he is more of a game tool developer.
Engines, 3D modeling tools, etc.
I don't think I have to say what Bink video is, you likely have seen the logo on many games you've played.
Among other things that would go uncredited since game makers would simply use the tools to produce data that they use in their games. Same way artists don't credit photoshop explicitly by name, but they still used it to produce their own works with it.

>>108856981
>I don't think I have to say what Bink video is
lmao wtf is this shit
never seen it in my life, and the wikipedia and website dont even mention sir lord chastity muratori
also, why the fuck would anyone other than epic games use their proprietary video file format
sounds pretty dumb, especially if you have to pay for royalties (which wouldn't be unexpected knowing his narcissism)

>>108856981
>I don't think I have to say what Bink video is
Yes obviously, but the thing is, he didn't make bink. He barely touched it more like. He wasn't exactly the lead dev on the project.

>>108857164
>the wikipedia and website dont even mention sir lord chastity muratori
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Muratori
>He is known for his work on Bink Video[2] and Granny 3D while working at RAD Game Tools, for popularizing the concept of immediate mode GUI (IMGUI) and coining the term, and for the Handmade Hero series of educational videos.

https://www.radgametools.com/binkgames.htm
>Bink has been used in over 15,000 games worldwide.

>>108856880
kek

>>108857181
You know what, you're right. I guess he did work on it but since he's not the sole creator we should probably disregard it and not give him any credit because that would look good for his character and I don't want that.

>>108857198
On the contrary, if we incorrectly credit people who were only there in a support capacity, those who did do the work get discounted. It is that which I cannot abide by.

>>108857210
I hope you see how hypocritical that is.
Are you taking credit for all the contributions you made on the works of your team? Why? Doesn't that discredit the people who did more work than you? What about all of the times you helped your coworkers with their work even though your name isn't listed as author in the commit.
Why be like that. What is the reason to diminish his contributions at all regardless of if they are big or small, what purpose does that serve other than trying to reject and dismiss. It comes across as cope via denial.

>>108857182
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Muratori
there's a reason why i only looked at the project pages.
for the importance of his involvement to be credible you need to verify the claim from both sides. we already know you claim he worked on it, but the fact this "famous" guy is not mentioned in the project pages tells me he's not as important as you would want us to think.
the only difference from him and a random intern on the same project would be that he just managed to brainwash enough kids to get a following
if he worked at google you'd be saying he worked there instead, despite the fact people leave after 2 years and google probably has 100k employees

Blow is a genius

Casey is a certified lolcow and watching his content makes you lose IQ points.

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>>108855706
Blow is a pretentious, anti-game designer with no sense of practicality or business acumen, yes. Muratoi can be a bit of a smarmy know-it-all with boomer tech takes too.

BUT, Muratori's main schtick of "software should be somewhat optimized" is much needed in today's jeet, AI, bootcamp grad infested waters. You'd have to be a retard to disagree with that. I have seen some dumpster fire-tier codebases in my professional career working on enterprise software. Anything running slow on modern hardware is a disgrace.

>>108854042
>shipping no product is better than shipping an imperfect product
>Nice hot take retard

>>108857358
In writing optimal software myself it is scary seeing perceptible results. I don't even have to benchmark most of the time, I can see and feel the difference in speed and responsiveness. And this is only after doing all the work needed to get there, the same work that the entire industry has been telling me does not matter and does not get results. I see the results first hand, I know it's real and valuable and I assume people are just dogging on the practice and proponents because it's non-trivial to do (i.e. they make excuses not to do it right).

>>108854002
>That was almost 15 years ago lil bro
So what?

ITT: bitter niggas doing mental gymnastics to discredit these two

>>108857435
I always knew you were an anon, Jon.

>>108856762
I know right! You can just hate e-celeb here no need to reason about it.
I don't know why you folks try to justify yourself, this is not your personal blog/Twitter nobody cares.

>>108857435
yeah like, why are these niggers making daily threads about these guys here lol. This is some sort of derangement syndrome.

>>108854093
Either way, it's completely irrelevant. Both Blow and Muratori make rational arguments from first principles that can be evaluated without respect to credibility. Shitters like you are crushed by their arguments and can only respond with pitiful name-calling.

When they are wrong, you can disagree with them and make an argument. When you can do this, you won't feel the need to get all pissed off and call them clowns.

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>>108853966
>Casey Muratori
>Granny
something is wrong with this guy

>>108855153
>Is it possible or is it a joke post? I don't know much about programming
it's absolutely possible to make games with typescript/javascript, this is nothing new
>t. typescript web shitter

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>they possess deep knowledge of video game development and are a light in the darkness of the modern ecosystem
>they are clowns for taking so long to produce things and have zero business sense

both of these things are entirely compatible

>>108854042
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better

I'll respect what they have to say if they ever come to their senses about Rust, the greatest programming language to have ever been created. Imagineusing a language without sum types in 2026. Imagine writing loops when you could be using combinators. I could go on.

>>108857358
>Blow is a pretentious
He's not that pretentious. He's is serious about principles he cares about in a world full of pseuds and bullshitters, and is disagreeable enough to state his judgments with blunt openness. I'll happily tolerate some disagreeable arrogance for genuine sincerity on today's fake-ass, meme-driven internet.

He's not 100% right about everything all the time. The problem is that weak-minded webshitters and various slop-eaters who have staked their entire identity on python/javascript/etc, suffer intense narcissistic injury when Blow criticizes these things. So instead of just accepting the good points and making counter-arguments on the mistakes, they completely lose their minds and can only respond by shrieking incoherently about random unrelated things like whether he is good at running a company or how many games he's shipped.

>>108857210
1. Muratori deserves credit for significant software.
2. Muratori's makes contrarian arguments from 1st principles (not credibility).
The only reason people debate #1 is because of #2. People who can't refute his points attack his credibility. So the topic comes up, and retards like you wind up on the wrong side of the argument.

>>108854063
i just wish he would also make other type of games
why make puzzle games only

>>108854132
>Gamedev isn't known for attracting top engineering talent
I get the opposite impression. Game devs were being poached a few years ago for insane sallaries for non-gamedev roles.
Specifically because games are incredibly hard programs to make. It's funny that their purpose is just recreation, it almost feels like a waste.
But think about the constraints they have to deal with and goals they need to meet.

You, draw me a complex simulated world hundreds of times a second, by utilizing all the possible hardware combinations that exist, and take advantage of every possible API the OS offers because you absolutely need it for features like real time networking across 100 players per instance and all the instances, and the sound is a 3D simulation with effects, and ...

It makes systems programming look like a joke.
The things I've made are more widespread and have more practical use but they are 1/10th as easy to produce if not easier. I only have to focus on outputting text to a buffer and maybe interfacing with some of the OS some of the time in a very limited scope without much potential for the dynamic fuckery that comes with having so many permutations of state distributed across systems in real time.

>>108855530
2 sides of the same coin.
Without recreation many people have no reward for their productivity.
The biologists come home and play games to refresh themselves.
Both are important and coefficient.

>be Jon
>world's greatest living programmer
>hates everything that exists
>everyone is doing things wrong
>only my way is the correct way
>oop doesn't work and is bad
>everyone is slow
Takes 11 years to make a clone of a sokoban game that already exists

>>108857228
>I hope you see how hypocritical that is.
There is no hypocrisy, you're simply seeing spooks and grasping at straws.
>Are you taking credit for all the contributions you made on the works of your team?
No
>Why?
Because that would be dumb
>Doesn't that discredit the people who did more work than you?
No, since I don't take credit for all the contributions I made on the works of my team
>What about all of the times you helped your coworkers with their work even though your name isn't listed as author in the commit.
I don't take any credit for it, why would I?
>Why be like that.
Because proper credit assignment is important
>What is the reason to diminish his contributions at all
His contributions are not diminished at all. You are aggrandizing his non-existent contributions to impossible levels for no reason. I pointed out the exact nature of his 'contributions', no less and no more.
>what purpose does that serve other than trying to reject and dismiss
You are not just diminishing, but outright erasing, the contribution of people who actually built Bink over an intern who worked on documentation. You are demanding that he be implied to be as instrumental as a sole lead dev on Bink. When his contributions to Bink were next to non-existent.
>It comes across as cope via denial.
Yes, your comments do come across as cope via denial.
Get a grip.

>>108857358
I do agree that Muratori is a lot less disagreeable than Blow. but Muratori still just makes the tamest takes everyone else has without proposing any concrete change or solution. Consider the absolute state of handmade hero as a counterexample to his nice statements.

>>108858595
A nice try but not convincing. At least not to me, hopefully it convinced yourself.
This part was especially funny
>Because proper credit assignment is important
Bravo.

>>108858128
1. No.
2. I actually haven't seen Muratori make any contrarian arguments (and his logic is typically flawed, usually because he is not very knowledgeable about what he's talking about. To his credit, beyond the flaws, he often has the right high-level idea).

>>108858264
>Game devs were being poached a few years ago for insane sallaries for non-gamedev roles.
That literally never happened, usually gamedevs were seen as clueless retards.
But that was an incorrect take at least until the late 00's, where in fact, gamedevs were generally pretty decent across the stack.

>>108858617
>no argument
I accept your surrender.

>>108858611
>without proposing any concrete change or solution
This. The alternative they present to whatever way people are doing things that they don't like is....nothing. He never hass an example of something that you even do differently. And based on how long it takes either of them to accomplish a goal (if they ever do) I don't think their method works

>>108858652
>That literally never happened, usually gamedevs were seen as clueless retards.
You may check public job listings, salaries etc. if oyu don't believe it.
Engine developers even to this day are making six figures.
Doing anything graphics related is predicated on having a lot of mathematical experience and the ability to apply it.
This kind of programmer is especially appealing and FANG + governments want them for a variety of programs.
These people end up building guidance and simulation systems for military.
Complex systems for Google. et al. for like half a million minimum.
Even today you can see job listing for companies like Epic that are up there if you end up working for their game development division and not any of the other roles like managment, marketing, etc.

>>108858672
>>no argument
Correct. A dismissal of your joke response.
>I accept your surrender.
I appreciate you keeping up the act.
You must craft what you wish was said to remove the sting of the truth.
I hope its a form of goading for attention / jest and not sincere because that would be bad.

>>108858706
>Engine developers even to this day are making six figures.
Know who else is making 6 figs?
Newgrads, e.g. the webshitter kind.
Are you 12?

>>108858758
That's a wide range. the difference between 100 and 800 should be obvious.
Check the numbers and the deltas and come to your own judgment since you want to reject it when it comes from my mouth. The disparities go higher from what I understand.
You're also not accounting for inflation across years and other economic changes in base salaries across the board rising.
baseless deflections

>>108855283
>That was Romero. And since they split Carmack has made technically impressive, yet soulless games. And Romero made Daikatana, a game dripping with soul and flavor obliterated by its lack of technical prowess.
yo cool take. that is all.

Why do troons praise mr. Blowjob so much?
Braid is literally a run of the mill indie game with time-bending mechanics no more impressive to implement than any other puzzle game.
The Witness is a very barebones game graphically speaking. It should run at like 500fps and it's not impressive. Also the environments are completely static.

Why is he praised as some kind of genious, again? Is the creator of something like Baba is You basically Einstein then?

>>108853966
Blow and most other game developers are completely retarded. There are 4 things that are needed to make a game good, the art, the writing, sound and the programmatic implementation. People like Blow are only good at one thing and that is the implementation, the art and writing in all of his games is complete dogshit especially Braid and Order of the Sinking Star.

>>108857875
>2 egotists make basic blanket statements so they can't be contradicted by actual programmers and computer scientists.
FTFY. Even the terrible desi bootcamp courses give the same advice. "First principles" my ass. I have no idea why ppl blow smoke up Blow's ass just for being a solo dev. No one this opinion of Lucas Pope.

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>>108858986
Mostly because he did it all himself. Even Mewgenics and Binding required some programming help, those were Ed's art and game design but he had a partner to do programming. All the indie troon darlings like Celeste and Hades were teams of people.

>>108853966
Honestly, no one on YT is worth listening too.
Making those clips takes a ton of time and effort - which means you're not spending it on the actual craft you're talking about.

>>108858409
Rome wasn't built in one day and only a single great man can conjure this grand creation and bless us all, such is the burden Jon has to carry.

>>108859153
both braid and the witness were also team efforts
hell, he had another graphics programmer and casey for the witness

>>108859384
Why is his programming method so inefficient and slow? I am asking for real. Both people in the OP say that object oriented programming is the cause of all software issues and is bad. Yet their methods are so slow that it takes over a decade for simple games, or in the case off Casey 10 years of literally not being able to finish one project at all.

>>108857435
i asked what specifically they were wrong about and no one responded lol

>>108859153
mcmillen literally did art for braid lol

>>108857435
Can you look at this and respond

>>108859597

>>108854132
>Gamedev isn't known for attracting top engineering talent
Top engineering talent has basically nothing to do with brilliance in game dev. Engineering is not what makes a game good.

>>108854063
>some sad twist of fate
His games suck, and even if they didn't doesn't make enough of them

>>108858986
It's for people who drink beer and get drunk or smoke weed and get high

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>>108858611
>>108858677
>without proposing any concrete change or solution.

This is just wrong, in the case of Muratori. He has an entire course dedicated to the hardware/software specifics of improving performance. It's his whole business now.
>https://www.computerenhance.com/p/welcome-to-the-performance-aware

He also has specific response videos and case studies on optimizing the performance of specific systems, out for free.
>https://youtu.be/hxM8QmyZXtg?si=GH7BoEkszLt5leZk
>https://youtu.be/Ge3aKEmZcqY?si=gPReiWB6CcpOGs-6
>https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEMXAbCVnmY7t29i_rd3mnALWu-aZr_42&si=91UdjHVnI0_nBJyg

>>108860320
No end results, is the point. No here's how to do it differently or how it differs from how you are doing it now. Just oop bad with no examples of anything else.

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>>108860441
>No here's how to do it differently or how it differs from how you are doing it now.
This is EXACTLY what the linked videos do if you actually watched them lmao

>>108860538
No it's all conceptual, never concreate examples of what they are talking about. Like bad code on the left good code on the right.

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>>108860622
>Never compares bad code and good code

Literally
>Here's the slow code
>https://youtu.be/Ge3aKEmZcqY?t=5212&si=rOJBgG96pYM56YF1

>And now here's the fast code
>https://youtu.be/Ge3aKEmZcqY?t=7987&si=uUJ2zD2M8xs7mzpA
???

lots to unpack in this thread.
first let me say that i agree with a lot of what these two say. probably about half.
that said, it is true that neither of them have accomplished enough to justify the way they are perceived, especially by nocoders, hobbyists, laymen, and people who never made it to industry. i saw that there was a serious comparison made to notch earlier in the thread, i think that is a bit ridiculous. if you think jblow or casey are comparable to that level of success, i think you are lying to yourself.

Casey Anthony

>>108853966
what a weird post
wtf is wrong with you?
it's insane that you have children who depend on you. you're an adult with a life and you're butt hurt about two people who, according to you, don't do anything meaningful. how are they even affecting your life?

>>108860868
It's not mainly about success.
Game devs like Notch or Toby Fox have ideas about what they want to achieve with their games, and they make them real. Technology is secondary, it's a tool.
The 2 guys in the OP exclusively jerk off about technology and think it's the most important thing about games. That's why their games suck (or at mediocre at best). It's like a painter being obsessed over the chemical composition of the paint and the canvas and the tools he uses instead of the content of the actual painting.

>>108861235
>random guy makes a painting

>jon and casey: your paint is wrong, your canvas is wrong, your brush is wrong
>jon and casey: here's how to do it right

>takes 10x as long as random guy for a painting that is no better

>>108861303
>jblow literally spending years collecting rocks in a cave to harvest the pigments

>>108853966
people still blow john carmack every day because of an inverse square root algorithm he wrote back in the 90s...

>autistically make a new programming language that is pretty much just C++
>to save 30 seconds on compile time
>take 11 years to make one game so the compile time savings are wasted
He would have been better off doing everything in C++ even though it isn't perfect

>>108858409
He's making a 500 hour game and a compiler, what did you make in the last 11 years?

>>108861873
He hasn't made anything until he ships either.

>>108861873
>what did you make in the last 11 years?
Nice strawman. What do I have to do with it at all? He's saying he's got the best technique but can't back it up.

still waiting for someone to say what they are actually wrong about

>>108861936
Ok since you can't read the thread and many examples try this

>me best, me smart, do my way
>me way take 11 year and still not done

>>108861950
that isn't a thing they have said they are wrong about

>>108853966
They are engineers they don't really care about game as much as the crap they put in. They don't care also about final result too which makes them shitty game devs by default.

>>108861950
not being done yet is not a valid argument because nobody else is making the same game he is making
neither is saying that he should have made his game in java because somebody else (one person in the entire world btw) made a game with it and succeeded one time 15 years ago

>>108861995
>not being done yet is not a valid argument because nobody else is making the same game he is making
Wrong, people already made the exact game, four of them, called heroes of sokoban. Or did you not know this was a remake?
That took 11 years, still isn't out, and looks like a mobile game

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>>108862001
>Order of the sinking stars looks like a mobile game
>pic rel is the game he is saying is a better example of what a game should look like

>>108862015
Nope, that isn't what I said at all faggot. I said the game already exists, puzzles and mechanics
And then jon updated it to look like a mobile game
And it took 11 years

>>108862032
please name a specific position or idea jon blow or muratori has that you think is wrong

>>108862032
Are you aware that the creator of heroes of sokoban is on Jon's design team?

>>108861995
>neither is saying that he should have made his game in java because somebody else (one person in the entire world btw) made a game with it and succeeded one time 15 years ago
Well I mean he should really have just used Unity and focused on the game. Nobody cares what the game's written in.

>>108862044
Why are you unable to grasp the concept. If someone says they know best, and their way is the best way, and their way takes longer and is worse, then please explain how they are correct?

>>108862050
Yes, and? What does that have to do with the topic of jon and casey's programming ideas clearly not being the best if they can't produce results?

>>108862062
But you aren't actually saying what the best way they are describing actually is that you think is wrong?
Like what specific position do you think is disproven by sokoban taking a long time. Do you think Jon's position is everyone should write their own programming language before making a game?

>>108862062
Everybody thinks their ideas are the best, if they didn't then they would never be able to start or commit to sticking with anything.

>>108862073
Why are you pretending that you can't find endless rants on youtube complaining about modern programming from both of them, when I can see the results of their "superior" way which is basically nothing.

Fine, jon's thoughts on opengl or vulkan, they are wrong on that take.

>>108862075
Wrong. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

>>108862089
>Wrong. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
That's just like, your opinion, man

How are they taking the AI craze? Havent listented to them in a bit.

Are they just having 24/7 meltdowns about vibecoders? They must be having an aneurysm, considering how assblasted they get at anyone not writing C with no abstractions.

>>108862109
Full meltdown mode. Comes up every stream Jonathan has.

>>108862109
They're completely fucked. Absolutely nobody is going to give a fuck about any new language that AI can't spit out perfect syntax for. I doubt an AI can even write hello world in Jai. Maybe, but not much more than that.

>>108862158
More like
>Absolutely nobody is going to give a fuck about any new language.

>>108862073
>what specific position do you think is disproven by sokoban taking a long time

>constantly complains about programmers being ineffective
>blames bad tools and processes
>makes his own tools, brags all the time how great he is at programming and everyone else is wrong
>his mobile-tier sokoban clone takes 10 years and 10 millions to make

>>108862508
something taking a long time or costing a lot of money is not a refutation, especially when objective progress is demonstrated right in front of your face, if you don't like it that's simply your opinion, not proof.

>>108862527
Mobile devs are shoveling similar crap games by the hundreds every year - therefore either existing tools and processes are not so bad as he claims or his tools/processes are not improving the situation or even making it worse (at least for himself).

>>108862570
Nobody is releasing 100 games in one year. There are just a lot of developers out there, some are closer to shipping than others. You are obsessed with one developer and comparing him to the collective output of the entire industry.

>>108862643
"Collective output" proves that existing tools and processes are adequate to (repeatably and by multiple independent entities) create similar games. And in reasonable timeframe and budget at that - as no mobile dev publisher can afford to spend 10 years and millions of dollars on a single mobile-tier piece of shovelware.

I dislike the modern state of software just like Blow. But objective reality has proven and is still constantly proving him wrong.

>>108862772
>all that shit
Argumentum ad populum

>>108862797
>not an argument
Yeah, like Blow has ever provided any evidence for his claims.

>>108862806
So then you admit that your stupid opinions are just as useless as his are and nobody should listen to you either and that you are just seething that people take him seriously and nobody takes you seriously?

>>108862817
You do enough to take time to respond.

>>108853966
I have mostly been exposed to casey through primagen in the standup
his takes feel like tp of the bell curve to me but like with an attempt to swing authority behind them

like sure he he good takes like any reasonable person does but overall they dont feel as good as the aura implies

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>>108862839
I should probably link an example of what I mean
https://youtu.be/y2jH37EObQY?t=2438

this segment rubs me the wrong way so much

>>108862643
Nobody's comparing him to the entire industry at once.
A poor craftsman blames his tools. That's Blow. What he's doing is called messing around. He's not developing games, he's entertaining himself through programming. Which is fine, but it's not game development. The game is just a byproduct.
It's like autists who grind leetcode problems all day and never build anything.

>>108862839
his aura comes from his old handmade videos where he rants about writing C++ for hours on end every single day. What bullshit you watch is his zoomer friendly rebrand turbo-normie, doesn't program anything and shills his online courses.

>>108862850
Yeah this is cringe. He's pretending not to understand something that's clear as day. I don't really know him but this is a very arrogant take.

>>108861235 You dumb motherfuckers are missing the entire point. Notch didn't get lucky with Java, he accidentally built a nuclear reactor out of cardboard and spit while Blow is still in his garage custom-machining the titanium bolts for a fucking tricycle. It doesn't matter if your paint is organically harvested from ancient Himalayan caves if the only thing you end up painting is a pixelated dick. Shoddy code that actually ships and creates childhood memories will always violate your precious first-principles and leave you seething in the middle of an unoptimized 50fps puzzle maze.

>>108863496
That's cope. Millions of people have tried to reproduce what Notch did and nobody has been able to do it, not even himself. That's the most obvious sign that it was just getting lucky. Compare that to somebody like Carmack who was releasing a new game every couple of years for decades.

>>108863547
this is a ridiculous hater statement. by this logic we can just disregard every single person’s highest achievement
it doesn’t matter if he can’t do it again. he did it the first time. this is the problem with jblow, casey, and people who think like them. i don’t like java either, but it appears to have been appropriate for what notch wanted to achieve. i have never even played minecraft either, im a grown ass man.
btw, everyone we are discussing here is anti-AI in some way or another. not sure why people are bringing that up.

>>108863712
You're chiming in out of context and sound like a retard. It's not that Notch didn't accomplish anything, it's that nobody can reproduce what he did so you have to fucking try something else which is what blow is doing.

>>108853966
yeah i like some of casey's opinions but i don't understand how he has so much clout given it seems like he has 0 notoriety outside of making youtube videos complaining about programming stuff. blow at least has somewhat earned his ego given braid was a big deal when it came out

>>108863828
It's an OG with documented work history and managed to make it through while avoid signing an NDA that prevented him from having a public opinion. It's kind of based actually. He could be making millions as a Microslop employee but he decided to do his own thing instead.

>>108854042
i feel like it's true though. programmers don't want to admit this but the quality of their work often matters very little for a company's success, the "idea" matters way more. a good idea executed at the right time often matters way more than having the slickest, most performant, and most elegant code

>>108863816
there’s been like a thousand successful and popular games anon, wtf are you on about? is jblow your dad or something? also what is this about jblow’s goal is to make a new minecraft? and this necessitates designing a new programming language? you sound like a nocoder content consooomer, your opinion is invalid

>>108863890
you are mad as fuck lmao

>>108853966
literally who, the thread

>>108860817
NTA, but thanks for proving my biases. I don't even need to click your tracking links to see whats going on here.

>retard grifter sperging out because two expressions that could be a vec4 simd operation
>will probably be optimized by the compiler. not well, but its not as bad as his retard will make it out to be.
>ignores the main function
>2775 second delta of nigger babble
>retards think he's a genius instead of a grifter
>retards then proceed to spam google tracking on a basket weaving forum

>>108858986
This. Not to mention time bending mechanics in games are older than braid as well and the witness runs like ass even on top hardware despite the shit graphics.

>>108859153
He didn't make the games himself and braid is the kind of game a solo dev routinely makes in 3 months. Protip: he didn't take 3 months to make it. You know there are like a bazillion real indie solo devs out there, right? None of which are blowjob.

>>108863898
why would i be mad? the people being discussed in this thread are good guys, but they aren’t titans of the industry or anything like that. a real professional SWE would immediately recognize that notch is on a totally different level of success and “worth listening to” than jblow and casey. no knock against them, but it’s just the truth. ironically, you are the one who sounds mad, thats why i facetiously asked you if jblow is your dad.

>>108860320
His course is a high level overview of how you can write faster software. It is not a method and it is not concrete. Just the same tricks everyone who takes a low level programming class learns in college. None of his claims are backed by fact, he's only playing semantics. A lot of the things he say are incorrect, and ultimately he's only talking about basic optimizations regardless of his semantic mumbo jumbo.

>>108861327
Not to mention he didn't actually write it, it was a colleague. Also the depth buffer trick he actually found in a programming magazine even though he's credited for it and had a patent about it.
But at least, carmack and his team actually made games and carmack has always had a knack for using cool techniques, if not invent them. He is overhyped, but he is at least worth being overhyped.

>>108863496
Not at all. Notch invented a business model that created FOMO, this is his only claim to success. The game already existed (infiniminer) and he originally published demo videos pointing out it was a clone of it. The rest worked because he let the community originally help direct execution. He also spent a LOT of time shilling the game on various obscure forums (pretending to be a player using alt accounts).

>>108863856
NDAs don't prevent having opinions you stupid nigger. He has NO documented work history beyond being an intern on the team of a known product. He is not even credited with any contributions to the tools. Nobody stays at fagman companies more than 2 years unless they're unable to find a job somewhere else because they're retarded and incompetent. He was only ever an intern.

>>108862089
The quote is "Perfect is the enemy of good." Of course perfect is the opposite of 'good enough'. That's like saying bright is the opposite of dim. The point of the quote is to point out how perfectionism is actively detrimental towards releasing things that are good, if not great.

>>108861950
Also, JBlow is working on a language and a game at the same time, so that's going to artificially increase time spent. Especially since the game is made in this experimental language and that process is used to test the language. It's like yeah you can crank out games pretty quickly if you use RPGMaker (the guy who made Look Outside is a good example of that, he even streams like Blow), but you do need some people who try and make technical improvements or else you just get a bunch of UE5 slop where nothing runs well and everything looks like shit. If Jai is a success then it could help people make quality games quicker compared to C++, and eventually people will make game engines with it that help less tech-savvy game devs make games that run faster than the current alternatives.

>>108864036
anything is better than c++, herb

>>108863994
RAD tools retard

>>108864036
>Also, JBlow is working on a language and a game at the same time, so that's going to artificially increase time spent.
Meme.
See Tomorrow Corporation or Naughty Dogs software.

>>108864044
We know, self-pwning retard.

>>108864048
You don't know shit, keep talking out your ass

>>108864046
I don't get this dumbfuck argument. It's like telling somebody to just be smarter if they don't understand something. Those examples are exceptional cases, not everybody has a genius level tool guy that can that off, so then you have to do it yourself which is going to take longer.

>>108864143
Making a new language is more tedium than genius. Those people claim to be geniuses that nobody can equal, yet they can't progress even as fast as normal people. You used the excuse that 'oh but he is making his own language at the same time', so I pointed out that others making their own languages at the same time do not have these problems.

>>108864155
Exactly my point "If he can do it why can't you?" it's a stupid dumb fuck argument that doesn't make any sense. They aren't the same people, they aren't even making the same kinds of games of course things will turn out differently.

>>108864174
Exactly my point "if others can repeatedly do it but you can't, maybe you're not as good as you think you are". It's a stupid dumb fuck dunning kruger peak mentality that doesn't make any sense. They aren't smart, they aren't capable, they aren't even making the same kinds of games as instead of making quality original games they're only making shitty clones or worse, nothing at all so they don't even have anywhere near the hard lift that people at NDS or TC had. Yet they still can't get there.

Literally even a rando in /agdg/ is worth listening to more than those cretins.

>>108864191
It's such a loser mentality to think that if you can't copy one other person exactly and have the same exact outcome as them that you shouldn't even try something else, the exact kind of loser mentality I would expect from somebody with such a weak argument to put somebody down for not being as good as one or two other people you can pull out of your ass. Like OH you can't make your own programming language game engine and game in less than a year? Well somebody else did it once guess you're a FUCKING RETARD.

>>108864209
I accept your surrender.

>>108864215
Makes no fucking sense you are either the best in the world or worse than a retard in /agdg/ if you think that it's mental illness, truly. I hope you get help because it doesn't seem like you are trolling.

>>108863986
>He also spent a LOT of time shilling the game on various obscure forums (pretending to be a player using alt accounts).
Is this true?

>>108864350
Yes. Just one example is xCocoa on TIGsource, which is actually him pretending to be a player. When he started posting about minecraft, it was on /agdg/ threads on /v/. People did some digging and found all kinds of other examples then. Eventually he left for reddit because he didn't like (genuinely) constructive criticism, he wanted to just be fellated all day.

>>108864209
It's not that their work has zero value or that they're wrong about everything.
It's that they (especially Blow) make very hard claims about how everyone one else in programming is wrong and it results in people's poor performance, all without providing any serious evidence except from appeals to emotions (it feels right - so it must be true).
And when one dared to prove the world wrong and that his tools and processes will improve the state of things, it took him 10 years and millions of dollars to develop mobile-tier sokoban clone.
The other one doesn't even try to make a game, i think, he only gives talks.

Meanwhile the world keeps spinning and many other developers are releasing similar or much bigger games, all developed within reasonable timeframes and budgets - apparently some even developed their own tools and programming languages for that purpose (just like Blow, except done much faster) as other poster above has shown.

>>108865013
Muratori did try to make a game. Handmade Hero. Took him a decade and I think he abandoned it. It's not even demo-tier as of the latest update.

>>108864403
You're just making things up he never did any of that why would I pretend to be a player?

>>108865174
Come on, the guy let Jens do all the work and pocketed all the money for himself while going on endless "vacations", leaving me to code, manage, iterate feedback and everything else without his involvement. Of course he'd do something like that.

>>108865026
It was a teaching project

I'll take Robert C. Martin's grifting over these two bozos' any day

>>108858639
In other words, you are completely ignoramt about literally everything relevant to the thread. All you are doing feeding the meme parrots.
>>108859660
Yeah it's pathetic. They are all nocoders repeating gossip.
I could list things I disagree on but my response would be direct and specific (Casey's ideal VCS isn't what I would want. His criticism of current source control practices are interesting but not actually useful and reflect the mindset of a guy who doesn't work on a programming team with production workflows and such. I could elaborate on the details but this thread is so full of seething haters who don't know anything about anything it would be a waste of time)

>>108865212
Yes and no. He explicitly intended to actually put it on steam or similar in the end as a real finished playable game, and the teaching intent was not to show people who don't know how to program how to make games so much as showing people (including those who don't know how to program) how to make games in his specific style with the explicit intention of quickly arriving at a fully complete game.

>>108865295
Same, and (((uncle bob))) can suck on a shotgun any day to make the world a better place.

>>108865295
Why?

>>108853966
The arrogance you're allowed to exhibit in public is directly proportional to your actual output.

Blow and Muratori just aren't accomplished enough to deserve to act the way they they do. Period.

>>108853966
>>108865872
Why do you keep beating this dead horse? This board is constantly spammed with Blow's ugly mug. You faggots are the only ones giving them any clout at this point.

>>108858611
His thirty million line problem video is good, but his only solution was making everyone use identical macbook skus.

>>108865374
>explicit intention of quickly arriving at a fully complete game.
Yeah and if you actually followed the series you can see how dwelling on teaching technical details was the main reason why the game took so long and was never finished. I remember when he started it. I knew that's how it was going to turn out after he spent a whole week on the introduction to C on windows, and not only did he spend a week but he devoted to Q&As. He wound up dropping the Q&A episodes but even so, it was abundantly clear that the teaching focus and emphasis on delivering interesting and useful content to his audience on a video-to-video basis was going to dominate the direction of the project and that it was going to take forever to finish a game.

Ultimately, the fact that he never finished Handmade Hero is an reasonable criticism with a reasonable explanation that anyone with two brain cells can understand. He meanwhile produced 1,000+ hours of high quality educational content about videogame programming. You can take from it whatever is valuable, where for gamedevs it will usually mean at the very least using game libraries like SDL and/or Raylib.

The reality is that Casey called your objects stupid, and because he was correct you have no counter-argument. This caused your fragile brain to explode and you now obsess over the fate of Handmade Hero and use it as hard as you can to make the Casey look bad.

>>108865907
Because it's funny and tech is boring as it is.

>>108854002
>stealing the right idea
things only nodevs say

>>108865013
I don't think I've ever heard Jon Blow complain about the performance of other people's games. Only about non-game software about compilers, visual studio, and various forms of webshit.

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>>108853966
>FNAF was made in Clickteam Fusion.
as was Baba is You. and thats a sokoban clone but with actual innovation. the moar u kno

>>108865872
Blow earned the right to be arrogant, about most of the things he is arrogant about.
Casey is generally not that arrogant. He's passionate, contrarian and eager to make arguments. Modern zoomer drones with brains fried from engagement algorithms who have no idea how smart people behave, mistake this for arrogance.

>>108865950
Nobody whining about Blow listens to what he actually says. They only parrot what they've heard other people say he said, and have maybe watched a few out of context clips

>>108865957
You have never met a genuinely smart person in your life.

>>108865932
>He meanwhile produced 1,000+ hours of high quality educational content about videogame programming
1000+ hours of educational content cannot be quality by definition, that's way too much

>>108866007
kek if you only knew

People are so fucking offended at others simply having opinions these days.
Blow and Casey get hate just for having opinions and beliefs, what a big no no, FUCKING NORMIES WANT EVERYONE TO WORSHIP AND BELIEVE THEIR STUPID INSTITUTIONS AND AI.
Democracy is the worship of FUCKING NORMIES, FOR NORMIES BY NORMIES AND THEIR STUPID POLITICAL IDOLS THAT DON'T EVEN COUNT THE FUCKING VOTES, BUT ITS STILL "DEMOCRACY" SO IT'S ENOUGH FOR THESE EMPTY IMITATIONS.

>>108865872
This is what envy looks like.

>>108866011
You undermine yourself with such a retarded argument, appealing to the dumbest possible axiom you pulled out of your ass. A PhD takes like 10,000-20,000 hours to earn.

More importantly, the videos are well-titled and the whole list of 600+ videos can be browsed in a few seconds. If I'm working on 2D Tilemaps, I can go right to the section where he talks about tilemaps and there's like 10 hours of tilemap content, which I can start watching on 2x speed, slow down for interesting parts and then abandon if the topic starts veering into something irrelevant. Often, value from deep-dive videos like that aren't explicit questions but rather different ways of thinking about and solving problems that you hadn't considered.

>>108865377
Huh? Robert C. Martin is Uncle Bob

>>108865295
casey mogged him

>>108865400
more practical for the code i typically write
his principles work quite well as long as you don't take his overboard presentation of them as gospel. but that requires some thinking rather than blind worshipping

>>108866161
muratori took decent coding principles and applied them like a complete retard

>>108866117
>A PhD takes like 10,000-20,000 hours to earn.
So? In that time you could have made your own video game instead of watching his stupid videos and you'd be far better off
Imagine needing "10 hours of tilemap content" lmao, that's something you can figure out in 5 minutes
You might have a point if the information was actually useful, but most of it isn't, most of it is him deep-diving and waffling about topics that are only tangentally related to game development (maybe cause he's never made a game)

>>108866200
If you're talking about his OOP criticism videos, he definitely criticized the material as it is taught and presented. And I can confirm that I have observed these retarded principles being applied badly in the wild by novice programmers who clearly learned the Uncle Bob / Java School coding religion. No, your 1,500 line Python build/deploy tool probably doesn't need to define any classes. But you did everything with classes, because you are an OOPtard and don't know any other approach, so now the whole thing is a tangled, over-engineered mess that breaks all the time and I have to rewrite from scratch.

>>108866238
>Imagine needing "10 hours of tilemap content" lmao
It's clear you have never tried to imagine anything at all beyond your own limited personal experience.

Sure you can just slap together your level in Unity, Godot or RPGMaker, let your engine handle everything, and if if you ever encounter problem the engine doesn't solve you just change your game to be something that works in the engine. And even then it still probably takes hours of practice before you actually get good at working with tiles, no matter what approach you take.

The entire premise of Handmade Hero is for people who want to learn how things work from scratch without having game engines make all the decisions. Even if they ultimately do use existing libraries or even engines to make their actual games, they want to understand what the engine is doing and why.

>>108866394
I've done countless things related to tilemaps and it's not a 10 hour subject, trust me
The issue is Casey doesn't cover useful topics, the first few videos have useful information like how to get things set up in Win32 but the rest of it is a complete waste of the time, most of the stuff he talks about is some technical deep dive on an optimization topic that isn't relevant to basically anyone

>>108854042
Games are art, nobody cares how they are coded.

>>108865928
So that's a good illustration of my problems with his contents, as others have also tried to express in this thread. Like you point out, this isn't really a solution at all. Yes there's a problem, but also everyone's aware of this problem in the first place. And his solution? Something that only a freshman who got into the CS program because "CS makes money right?" could come up with.

>>108866117
A PhD does not contain educational contents (neither does a real master's either, the lessons-based masters are degree mill-exclusive concepts and not real, they're not accepted credentials anywhere a master's actually matters).

>>108866425
Not him but I don't remember the videos being like this and I'm pretty sure I watched them as white noise for a while. As I recall, like you say, the early videos were pretty straightforward "how to maek gaem" contents, but then he just programmed himself into all kinds of corners and reinvented a bunch of wheels and then decided to refactor everything "for performance" or to go from 2d to 3d and so forth. I may be remembering wrong though, but in no way did any of the twists and turn seem to be education-oriented.

>>108866432
Every post a new projection, are you spilling out all your life's details?

>>108866451
>but then he just programmed himself into all kinds of corners and reinvented a bunch of wheels and then decided to refactor everything "for performance" or to go from 2d to 3d and so forth
that's the complete waste of time I was talking about

>>108853966
both., like other know ytubers they sells the fake persona. In real life they are completly diferent from online fake persona.

>>108866007
This is the part that really gets me. Even if that anon had met someone with above average IQ, he couldn't possibly make the retarded statement he's making. He clearly has never even been on the same continent as even a mildly smart individual. It's crazy that these kinds of people are so vocal about their deeply held, trivially dismantled, beliefs, though. Where even DO these beliefs come from?
Countless indies made games far more graphically and technically complex than the witness, with 0 performance issues, with custom engines. Including many solo or duo devs. But somehow jblow earned the right to be arrogant about performance in games???

>>108866468
why you write like an HN user

>>108866152
Yes, that's my point. I was saying that uncle bob is a total moron, but even then he's far better than the two clowns in op.

>>108866468
What have you made? You are arrogant but you've never made anything.

>>108866468
>Countless indies made games far more graphically and technically complex than the witness, with 0 performance issues, with custom engines.
> But somehow jblow earned the right to be arrogant about performance in games???
As I said before, I don't think I've ever seen him be arrogant about performance in games. But the funny part is that even within your headcanon, those two statements aren't in contradiction at all. He probably believes that those other developers would also have the right to be arrogant about performance, if they wanted to.

>>108866541
>As I said before, I don't think I've ever seen him be arrogant about performance in game
What the fuck am I even reading? That's literally ALL he's EVER arrogant about!

>>108866576
Shut the fuck up seething bozo

>>108866576
I've only heard him complain about visual studio, other parts of Windows, C++, and things like that. Surely you can provide 1 (one) example if you're so sure. Not even a link, just off memory, what game he was complaining about and why.

>>108866594
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3PtDhznIiE
Cry about it.

Basically, it has been proven definitively that the people who invested in making good technology for good technology's sake have lost and serve no purpose anymore, and you need to be an ideas guy now. AI and hardware performance can mask and overcome any technical issue that matters (does not getting stuck on geometry sometimes in the witness REALLY make it that much better than other games where that was still a minor issue? The answer is no, btw.)

Blow does have interesting game ideas, but I'm not sure if he still has any or if he just did in the past.

>>108866779
Envy. Enjoy watching his new game release btw.

>>108866789
Blow or Casey? I don't think the sokoban thing is going to flop (it might, but who knows). But Jai was obviously a waste of time, and a kid could have made it in monogame and the result (apart from blow's name) would be functionally the same.

>>108866779
Where are his interesting game ideas? So far he has made muh art wankfests in the shell of 1:1 copy-pasted videogames.

>>108866764
>Braid game of the goty edition ran blazing fast
>Sold like shit
explain that blowy

>>108866764
>2 minutes of why you shouldn't do general purpose programming in assembly
>3 minutes of vaguely observing how modern software is slow and people care more about clean code than performance
>doesn't even mention games at all
Why did you make me watch this? What's the arrogant part even supposed to be?

>>108866807
Braid and Witness might be art wankfests, but they aren't "extraction shooter #5219992". Credit where credit is due, his games are vastly more unique than most.

>>108866833
What credit? At the time of braid, every indie game was yet another platformer, just like his game. Witness came in a time where every other game was a 3d puzzler. How the fuck are his games unique? Get a grip.

>>108866856
At the time of Braid indie games weren't really a thing, which is why Braid was popular, nobody would care about it today

>>108866890
What the fuck is this history revisionism? Lmao!

>>108866818
>moving the goalposts
Classic.
Take then any video where he talks about why he made JAI. All the time he talks about how games are slow and muh SOA vs AOS (he is wrong about it of course) and muh microoptimization and all that shit.

I don't understand the confusion from people that are blow fans when people say that the main issue is the arrogance and them professing their way is the only way but their results don't back that up.

I just saw a video of him going on an unhinged rant about opengl and vulkan, and telling people not to use them. But then he mentioned raylib and to use that, but raylib IS opengl

>>108866914
Braid was one of the games that made indie games popular

>>108866939
You must be 18 or older to browse this site.

>>108867047
I'm 40 so that's not a problem

>>108866934
Ok, anything else? Every post you complain about a different thing, are you trying to see what sticks?

>>108867059
Why do 12 year old zoomers always use "40" as their fake age persona?

>>108867091
There's more than one person in the thread.

>>108867118
Why do 12 year old zoomers always doubt the age of the person they're talking to when they don't remember how something was in the past?

>>108867159
Yes, that's exactly what I want to know. Well? You've got some explaining to do.

>>108867168
I've been an indie game developer since 1993
Indie games were not a thing during the late 90s and 2000s, they become a thing with XBox Live Arcade or whatever it was called and Steam, Braid was one of the first games on the XBox arcade

>>108853966
These two clowns are just the basedlennial version of yanderedev with the difference that zoomers don't worship that cretin.

>>108858038
A game's main loop is usually a single thread mutating a shitload of global state. This is the most natural match to the problem domain, and it's a huge pain in the ass in Rust.

>>108867208
If we want be charitable lots of flash games were indie titles.

>>108867263
Well yes Flash games were indie games but you know what I mean, they weren't real games

>>108866798
>a kid could have made it in monogame and the result (apart from blow's name) would be functionally the same.
Just not true. Even from the trailer alone, you can see that the game has a ton of content. Between the art, graphics, and gameplay (and probably performance) it's definitely not something a random solo dev is going to release in even 10 years, especially not using something like Monogame.

It's theoretically possible Thekla could have shipped the game in less time, had they thrown it together in a pre-existing engine. But counterfactuals like that are impossible to know, because the only reason OotSS even exists is because Blow wanted to make it, and was willing to invest his time and significant resources to make it happen. And since he also wanted to make a programming language because he hated programming in C++, that's part of the deal. If he'd been forced to make a game in C++, it might not have been the same game at all and we have no way to know whether it would have been better or worse.

The game makes me think of the relationship between folk music and classical symphonies. Composers would take good but simple ideas from folk songs and dances, and turn them into incredible, large-scale works for the concert hall. eg Brahms taking an alphorn melody he heard in Switzerland and turning it into this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0ld-w1BvFY

OotSS takes a bunch of ideas from simple indie puzzle games and turns them into an epic.

>>108867342
All of Jon's games could be made in Unity and have their dev time cut in half because none of them really do anything special in a technical sense so he's wasting his time programming it from scratch each time

>>108867342
>it's definitely not something a random solo dev is going to release in even 10 years
Bro, come on man lol

Odor of the stinking saar

>>108867208
Steam indie games predate xbox live arcade. You say you've been an indie game dev since 1993 yet you also say that indie games didn't exist in 1993, which is definitionally not possible. Flash games were almost entirely indie. Doom was indie. Cave story was a huge hit long before braid. As was M&B. Ultima was a huge indie series. Castle crashers was released in the same batch, time and method as braid. Unlike braid, it had actual influence and was the birth of one of the most commercially successful games around. You can't find games inspired by braid anywhere. For someone who supposedly ever at all was interested in games, let alone developed them, you sure don't seem to know the first thing about them. Curious!

>>108867267
>higher gameplay depth
>more game content
>more mechanics
>deeper mechanics
>better story
>but they're not games because... they just aren't ok

>>108867342
wtf am i reading
bot post?

>>108854013
That's because what matters are the actual game rules. Designing a video game and a table top take aren't that far apart when it comes to the heart of the game.

>>108867432
>Steam indie games predate xbox live arcade
Nah, for the first few years of Steam's life it was used for Valve games / other AAA games
Indie games came later
>You say you've been an indie game dev since 1993 yet you also say that indie games didn't exist in 1993
Obviously they existed you sperg they just weren't popular

Flash games were indie games that people played, but not something anyone would consider paying for. Prior to the mid 90s indie games were also a thing, but when 3D came around games were now too complex for indie teams and unlike today nobody had any interest in playing 2D or retro-looking video games at all, it was the latest graphics tech or nothing. So indie games were not a career path all through the 2000s

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>>108867047
He's right and you are an idiot.
Braid: 2008
Super Meat Boy: 2010
Limbo: 2010
Fez: 2012

Yes, no shit there were indie/solo games before that, but they didn't release for consoles and didn't get much mainstream attention and definitely weren't all puzzle-platformers. Cave Story was the main indie platformer that predated Braid. But there were a lot more strategy/rpg type indie games during that era like Dwarf Fortress or https://rich.itch.io/strangeadventures.

>>108867483
>Nah, for the first few years of Steam's life it was used for Valve games / other AAA games
Yes, but Valve allowed indie games on steam as early as 2004, 4 years before Braid. Braid tried to get on Steam before applying via Microsoft post-rejection. It was already the platform to be even for indies at the time.

>Obviously they existed you sperg they just weren't popular
I named some outrageously popular games that you're telling me were never popular. Wild!

You really are totally clueless about anything before the 2010's while pretending to have developed indie games since the 90's. How do you even live with yourself?

>>108867445
You're not reading, you're just scanning the screen waiting stimulus.
>>108867372
meanwhile actual evidence to support the claim: 0

>>108867547
>I named some outrageously popular games
Yes you named a couple. Not sure what your point is here, Braid is one of the games that made indie games popular, it was obviously not the ONLY indie game, I never claimed it was

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>>108866311
Well Casey really likes to take the ideology that he disagrees with, and imagine how they would work at the most extreme. "Clean code is bad", because when you apply "clean code" you are supposed to make your procedures 2 lines long, and put them all separately into different files. "Test driven development" is bad because when you do "test driven development", you are supposed to only make tests, to the point where it hurts your project. I think he is actually criticizing sertain teachers that we do not know about, BUT making your code easier to work with is GOOD, and seeing that your code works as intended is GOOD. Thinking about these things are GOOD. Man I understand why JBlow fired this guy

>>108867564
Prove it. There is 0 evidence. At the time nobody particularly cared for Braid, it was that one pretty fun but too pretentious platformer. That's it. Minecraft is the game that really made indies popular, if anything. Spelunky, cave story, shovel knight are remembered to this day. Braid? Until some influencer on tiktok or wherever the fuck you and your zoomer buddies found it lately talked about it, nobody even remembered it existed. No game was inspired by Braid. No game was inspired by Braid's success. Braid's success was not unique or special among its contemporaries, so why are you singling out that one game that nobody copied, instead of any of the other successful games at the same time that were copied extensively? Or any of the long list of games before that were extremely successful and popular?

>>108867709
>so why are you singling out
I'm not. I said it was one of the games that made indies popular at the time. One of. Not the only one. Are you fucking retarded? I don't care for Braid, I've never even fucking played it, I was simply stating a fact given I was alive and an indie game developer at the time. Meanwhile you who clearly weren't there and hate Braid for some reason are having a little tantrum about it

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>>108867432
>Castle crashers was released in the same batch, time and method as braid. Unlike braid, it had actual influence and was the birth of one of the most commercially successful games around.
>actual influence
What a retard. Castle crashers is just a multiplayer beat 'em up with RPG mechanics. Maybe you can credit the game with reviving a dead genre, but that was bound to happen anyway. And "X, but with RPG mechanics" hasn't counted as innovation since the 90s. If you search for "top beat'em ups of all time" you might see one or two people listing Castle Crashers in their top 10, but that's about it.

Meanwhile, if you search for "time rewind games" you'll find that it's a small but extant niche with multiple games, Braid is one of the top examples of successful designs in the genre.

>>108867723
The original claims which you decided to champion were:
>his games are vastly more unique than most.
>Blow does have interesting game ideas, but I'm not sure if he still has any or if he just did in the past.
>At the time of Braid indie games weren't really a thing, which is why Braid was popular, nobody would care about it today
The idea that Braid was one of the games that made indies popular is ludicrous and is a brand new narrative that has not existed before recently. You were clearly not alive at the time the game came out. The fact that you have opinions about Braid despite not even having played it says a lot.
You might as well say that Euro Truck Simulator and Gravity Bone were some of the games that made indies popular at the time as well. They came out at the same time so it's all the same right?

>>108867709
Braid was popular when Netflix published the 2012 documentary "Indie Game," which featured some Blow at his Blowiest. The producers clearly relished clipping his most condescending and arrogant ideas about game design.

>>108867760
I didn't say any of those things except Braid was one of the games made indies popular
Remember this is an anonymous imageboard
I agree with you, Braid had no legacy and didn't inspire any games, it's time rewind mechanic was also in PoP Sands of Time before it, but at the time it was popular

>>108867744
You got my point but you didn't understand its nature. So close yet so far.
Time rewind mechanics existed before braid and braid was explicitly inspired by them, notably sands of time, as per jblow's own testimony. I don't know of any game where the time rewind mechanic is not either very different, or based on a game that predates braid (notably again sands of time, which has been a major influence in that area).

>>108867762
Is Indie Game: The Movie the reason these zoomers think blowfish created all of indiegamedom? Does explain a lot though. But 2012 was quite a bit ago, did something or someone shill that movie again lately or what?

>>108867798
Nobody thinks that

>>108867769
>but at the time it was popular
Yes.
At least I have no argument with anything in this specific post of yours.
I did say you decided to 'champion' these arguments, not that you made them, because it would make no sense to assume you are the same person.

>>108867809
>I did say you decided to 'champion' these arguments
No I didn't. I didn't agree with any of them, quote them, or say anything that implied them. I just said it was popular at the time and contributed to indie games becoming popular. Stop being dumb

>>108867817
Learn how imageboards work instead of self-pwning like this, retard

>>108867581
I have seen real-world examples of
>retarded object designs
>retarded useless tests that were a waste of time to write and clutter the repo with.
>retarded testing metrics that lie and lead to bad behavior and workarounds (eg conditioning to ignore test failures because 80% of them are useless noise)
>code that was bloated slow, broken and hard to maintain because it was designed with objects to begin with instead of with a simple, naive algorithms refined over time.

In general, following Casey's advice on how to approach programming and problems in general will help you avoid these easily-avoidable mistakes. You might avoid them anyway, but that's no reason to rage and get pissed off at the advice.

>making your code easier to work with is GOOD
Yes, and more often than not, it is easier to work with code that is organized into structs and functions and proceduers, with maybe some interfaces or a few carefully-chosen objects, than the religiously object-oriented design patterns.
>seeing that your code works as intended is GOOD
Yeah and that's not what test-driven develop is or EVER WAS.

>>108867830
What a bafflingly stupid thing to say
There's multiple people with multiple opinions in here

>>108867839
Following Casey's advice will make you make all the mistakes that things like OOP and TTD were invented to avoid in the first place

>>108867786
>You got my point but you didn't understand its nature. So close yet so far.
You didn't even cite games you think were influenced by Castle Crashers (because then it would be obvious they weren't). You just played it when you were a kid and loved it, and you didn't play Braid or you played it and didn't like it because it was a pretentious puzzle game. And for some reason that has turned into a ragehate campaign against anyone ever caring about Jon Blow and Braid.

>>108867856
No, it won't.
TDD especially, was designed entirely as a religion to sell to complete retards, not to solve any real-world problems.

>>108867868
Both of them were invented to solve real-world problems otherwise nobody would have even bothered

>>108867845
And yet you are the only one who doesn't know how to post. Sad.

>>108867882
I'm not gonna add "NTA" to every post I make and you shouldn't assume someone who replies to you is neccessarily the same person

I tried installing filepilot (which they hold up as a shining example) and it felt a lot worse to use than explorer. It was not noticeably faster.

Made me wonder if these guys are wrong about some things. I still enjoy listening to them, though.

>>108867798
Blow has been relevant ever since then.
- The documentary made him famous.
- Then people looked into his opinions and found them interesting and sometimes controversial, so he got more famous.
- Shipped another game in 2016, a more professional-looking effort than Braid.
- He got frustrated with C++ and decided to start making a new programming language, which was interesting to tech people.
- Since he was famous, he occasionally did dev streams and talked about random shit, which often included blunt criticism of shittily designed end-user software.
- This feeds ongoing controversy because most people agree with the criticism while the jeets who ship the shitty software he complains about get offended and attack.
- His new game is coming out soon, he's hired an outside firm to market the game and they are clearly using multiple techniques, including exploiting Blows fame to get attention.

>>108867861
The irony of your completely wrong assumptions is palpable.
At any rate, my point was that braid's influence score is 0. Castle crashers' influence score is > 0. So the ratio is infinity. Castle crashers was infinitely more influential than braid and its success bred:
Towerborne
Full Metal Furies
Big Helmet Heroes
Vertical Drop Heroes HD
That's infinitely more games, infinitely more successful and influential than Braid. This isn't reddit, I should have to type "/s" everywhere to get a point across. But when the audience has become reddit, maybe that's no longer optional?

>>108867899
I explicitly didn't assume it, you illiterate mongoloid.

>>108867952
Then why would you assume I agreed with the person who did?