Where did the idea that Nintendo developers are good programmers come from?
they shipped something millions of people use even after 30 years. What have you done that even compares pajeet?
This video does not support your point
I've never crashed Mario without explicitly trying to.
>>109627620>humanslop is good because billions of retards consume itgo dark faggit
>>109627582there isn't such an idea? the Wii, NDS, Wii U, Switch, eShop, these things were regularly shitted on for being inferior on a software level to their contemporaries Some people say Iwata is a good programmer based on the things he did back in the day, but Nintend as a whole? no
if they had unlimited time and budget, it would be perfect. or more likely, not released at all
>>109627582Never heard that.>>109627620popular =! good
>>109627582https://youtu.be/56QOSr04sHE?t=308
>>109627651>these things were regularly shitted on for being inferior on a software level to their contemporariesby whom? snoys? lol
>>109627582Be honest, it was the prehistory of 3D games, of course devs back then had not yet discovered a lot of tricks that we know now. What they achieved was amazing for the time.
>>109627582That was literally the first game they wrote in CBefore that it was all 6502/Z80/65816 asm.
>>109627582Rust doesn't have this problem.
>>109628068No one serious use rust
>>109628028it was basically their first properly 3D game, on completely new hardware unlike any of their previous hardware, using a genre they were making the defining example of, all from scratch since they had to make the engine for it as well, etc.it could have been much, much worse.
>>109627582play smash bros ultimate on a 4k 70+inch screen and look for jagged edges. There you go.the GC and Wii era established that nintendo hires some of the best code wizards in the industry when it comes to making games look good on dogshit hardware.
>>109627582what is a good programmer to you?
I had to "Don't recommend this channel" this guy.
>>109628110why
>>109627582They did not have years to autistically optimize every last byte. These games were written to a deadline. Also, they had shitty dev tools, and very limited access to knowledge.
>>109627789>>109627641>popular =! goodSure, go work on your obscure 0.5% performance improvement on Haskell that no one will ever see or use. That will be useful to everyone and something you remember fondly on your deathbed
millennials having to dig through shit made 40 years ago to take apart and feel smart for once in their lives
>>109628301Except SM64 has been optimized a dozen times over and even mediocre developers laugh how badly it was originally. Shit literally runs on a GBA now.
>>109628301you should become a bit familiar with the guy op pictures before commenting on possible performance gains (there was a lot).of course, i, nor the guy with the youtube channel, don't believe nintendo did a bad job, they just didn't have the time or desire to pour over every line in the game to save microseconds here and there
>>109628315>even mediocre developers laugh how badly it was originallyYou seem to be the only one doing that, if you even are a programmer at all.
>>109628443You're not much into the decomplication scene, are you?
>>109627582Sufficed to say, they were passable (especially considering they were making one of the first 3D platformers ever fucking made).Also as another note the released build of Mario 64 literally was compiled without optimisation (so -O0), and it still ran fine.
>>109627582Look at me, I'm nitpicking a technological marvel because /v/ told me I have to despise Nintendo or else I won't fit in with the gang!
I'd like to see you do better without access to decades of hindsight and technological advances.
>>109628571it is unbelievable what can be done on the n64 nowadays with homebrew engines/microcode, but they couldn't have done that back then. many of the effects/techniques used now had literally not been invented yet in 1995/1996, much less worked out clever ways to make them work on the n64. homebrew devs probably know more about the n64 now than any n64 developer did when it was still being sold. not even hard to imagine since all but a few games didn't even attempt to make their own microcode, just used the stock nintendo one
>>109628520>and it still ran fine.30FPS (at best) is NOT fine
>>109627582Stupid fucking bait thread.
>>109627582Who claims that?They've historically made good games, but code quality has always been mixed, especially by modern standards.
>>109628806And yet it's still somehow better and more on-topic than half the shit on /g/
>>109628790Eh, said autist in OPs image made it run over 60 fps, but they definetly wouldn't have managed that back in the day, and i mean standards were also rock bottom back then, Ocarina of time runs even worse for example.
>>109628894It's not about "standards", it's about having a limited time, only having a few months with the actual hardware (the game was mostly developed in SGI workstations and optimized for em) and this being the literal first C project of nintendo.
>>109628107That's not due to programming, it's due to art direction
>>109628315>people with the benefit of 30 years of hindsight are laughing at how badly optimized a game made in 1.5 years is>can't even personally cite a single example of "badly optimized" without relying on youtubers to tell himNocoders retarded as ever I see.
>>109630592Are you trying to say something like...>it's not badly optimized, they did what they could at the time???
BOWSA'S EVIL MEMTEST
>>109628042>That was literally the first game they wrote in Cand? memory management is the same. also, they were coding all their game developing tools in C since the super famicom.
>>109627582>their first n64 game done an extremely tight deadlinejeez i wonder why mario 64 isn't very well optimized, i guess they were just bad at their jobs
>>109627582Yea I’m sure if 90s slanty eyes had access to Claude like this faggot does, they coulda done the same thing.
>>109627582buy an ad, nigger.
>>109628110he's one of the only channels that actually talks about Programming (TM).
>>109631101lol, is this the new cope? accuse anyone good at programming of using AI?
>>109631745He has a Russo-adjacent accent. There is literally zero chance he isn’t cheating .
>>109632881he's german
>>109632881Guess what ethnicity Eastern Germans are.
>>109633831>Guess what ethnicity Eastern Germans are.hard-working honestfreedemocratichttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvEzFW_pH1g
>>109628301>performance improvement on HaskellLOL
>>109633831>100% of them btw
>>109632881>russian accentSmartest race 'scientist'
>>109634148If you didn't know, any person that has a deep, non-feminine voice and doesn't speak English well is Russian according to Americans
>>109627641Yes, exactly. Billions of people use it because it is GOOD. unlike anything you ever made, fuccnigga
I dropped Mario 64 on OG N64 cause it runs like piss.If they made it 60fps it would have been worth playing
>noooo they used the available memory of the console instead of making sure there would be extra memory free for literally nothing to use
Mario 64 was a pretty great game and still is even after 30 years, maybe I should play it again soon.
>>109636395*groans*sure but thats memory you have to shuffle aroundin and out of the cpuand that takes time
>>109628764>ebrew devs probably know more about the n64 now than any n64 developer did when it was still being sold. not even hard to imagine since all but a few games didn't even attempt to make their own microcode, just used the stock nintendo onethis.it was a job to them and also becasue it was a job they had deadlines. like i hate kaze casue he talks in terms about this shit like the developers were just dumb and lazy. Meanwhile this whole faggot's life is "let obdimize n64"
>>109630620its almost like you interpreted what he said correctly and are acting like that is a burn somehow. not everything needs to be "brevity is the soul of wit" -ified
>>109636488doesn't chance the fact that it's badly optimized though does it?
>>109636426You know what else takes time? Spending decades optimizing a single program and all the tools used to build it.I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I understand why it wasn't done or even as feasible at the time. It's like saying "just have decades of foresight and expertise on a machine and genre that you also just invented" / "just be perfect the first time".
>>109636500does it matter for a 30 year old game on 30 year old hardware?No, not a bit.
I don't care how bad their programmers are I'd take good game and bad programmers over bad game and good programmersof course we only have bad game and bad devs now
>>109636530it does actually, modern fixed versions run better with less slowdowns and locked 60 fps compared to original 30 fps
>>109636541on original hardware*
who literally carestake your grown stank ass off /g/>>>/v/
>>109636541>30 years were required to optimize a game that already fulfilled its purpose many times over.It doesn't though. people paid for it enjoyed it an still enjoy it even on poopy emulation whether official or unoffical.They optimized it. And? So what?its good for future projects but, waxing on about how minutely they can optimize and increase the framerate is retarded.
>>109636575go to /vr/, people still play it
>>109636590>go to /vr/, people still play itargument in my favor.people do but, the majority do not play "let optimized berzjon"and my point is that its already fulfilled its purpose so to "optimized" and bitch about how it wasn't "optimized" is dumb other than for future projects.
>>109636607the point was it was unoptimized if it could be optimized so much further, regardless of everything else
>>109627582Nips were never good programmers, they just made good games. All the good programming came from the west, i.e. Starfox for SNES.
>>109628042>>109630723The real answer is they were high on OOPslop becaue it was the 90s.Zelda64 and Mario64 both suffer from object oriented nightmare spaghetti
>>109627582pretty much exclusively from factor 5
>>109632881Retard
>>109637086How's that possible? They were written in C, not an oop language
>>109636636>it was unoptimized if it could be optimized so much further, regardless of everything elsenobody is arguing against that. everyone knows that mario 64 did not run as well as it could have, nobody is saying otherwise
>>109627582>Dude what if we tinker with the code and never ship the game?>Brilliant![Speaks in Japanese] UNacceptable
>>10963766020FPS is acceptable.
>>109636402There is a coop mode now btw. Maybe someone on /g/ can set it up so that we can play geoguessr or hide and seek like that Indian guy BizzareBomb or what is his username.It looks very fun
>>109637682Damn that sucks because the deadline is tomorrow. Are you gonna refactor the entire game in one day?
>>109637703No, but I would realize when developing the game that given that we have the fastest commercial CPU on the planet (3x faster clock speed than the competition) while having the slowest memory and a pathetic memory bus, that the memory is going to be the bottle neck.That is what I would do, which really isn't very esoteric knowledge of the hardware. Quite the opposite, it is the most basic knowledge that all of the developers should know.This means that we optimize for memory and cache locality instead of optimizing for the CPU.Can you guess what Nintendo did?That is right, they stored everything CPU-bound in memory, destroying cache locality and filling memory with garbage and now the CPU and the RDP have to wait for the memory bus. CPU stays idle 70% of the game.Neat, huh?
>>109636426Yeah, and? Nobody cared then, nobody cares now. You may as well try to mod X-ray or Crysis 1 to be properly multi-threaded and brag as if the people who built those engines initially should have known ahead of time that multithreading was going to win the development war against single core speeds.
>>109634166>>109627641> is good because billions of retards consume it>Dude my never released vaporware that I was working on for 25 years will be great!*NEET gets evicted from home by parents**vaporware never released*>PS: I'm a vibe coderAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA get ready for the colossal fuckups your AI will hallucinate into the code.>humanslopLOL the main point before AI shitters showed up was that programming languages where shit they are bizarre and often idiotic in their cryptic behaviors. WE could have made a "language" that is idiot safe however games wanted to push hardware to its limits. There was a good idea to invent something new that is not this level of retarded however preserves 99% of the hardware power. However most effort was concentrated on frameworks, game engines and JVM style shit.>oh yes I will show you how to write it the right way only use my language that runs on the JMV. >Did you pay a license to have your JVM installed?>YOU ARE STEALING JAVA! LAWSUIT! The result is all this proprietary crap written on top of bad languages.And all this bullshit because C/C++ refused to define thisif(a==b){x++;}as a syntax error to force readable codeif(a==b){x++;}And academia did chase the python meme and then the functional language meme. What a shit show!
if(a==b){x++;}
>>109637757In 2007 it was pretty well known already that multithreading is going to play at least a big role, developers just didn't know how to utilize it properly yet.
Is Emanuar Kaze a one in a million genius?
>>109637734>That is what I would do, which really isn't very esoteric knowledge of the hardware. Quite the opposite, it is the most basic knowledge that all of the developers should know.You are a fucking retard. They were developing a game for hardware that didn't exist yet, specs would constantly change and nobody really knew what the console was going to be.>the memory is going to be the bottle neck.Nobody knew this until a rareware developer made a benchmark that mysteriously performed like shit and he asked SGI to figure out what was going on. SGI didn't realize that the latency was a huge bottleneck until the n64 was so late in development that delaying it was not an option. You're probably autistic so you're approaching the problem from the idea that the people developing mario 64 have all of the knowledge that you have, but the reality is that sally does not know that the ball is in the box because she doesn't know that anne moved it there.
>>109631745Not him however the fagot obviously spend 10 years analyzing every line of code in that game. This is unacceptable if you need to release a functional game in this decade.>b-b-b-bb-And none of the kids noticed the difference. >b-b-b-b- 20FPSAnd no one noticed.
>>109637803>And no one noticed.Snoys often made fun how badly games like Goldeneye ran.
>>109637824I did not notice because I was a child.In contrast I noticed when new PC games did freeze and lag since I did have a old PC at that time when I was a child. >b--b--bbThat is hardware/toy made for children you dumb fuck!
>>109637803Hardcore Nintendo fans also say it's okay that BoTW or TotK running occasionally at sub-20 FPS is fine. Doesn't mean it is, it's garbage, I sold my Switch back in the day and just switched to emulation where I could play it at proper 60 FPS.
>>109637845If it's for children it's okay when the quality is sub-par? Also a game where you kill people with guns is hardly aimed at children, in some countries it was rated for 18+ even.
>>109637799Anne you fucking thief. What a fucker
>>109627620You sound mad.
>>109637911dude's just having a little melty
>>109637859>Mario 64 is a game with guns where you kill peopleAHA OK.>quality is sub-par?No. However literally no one will notice, if you are a grown man you will not notice any of that. The only reason you are obsessed over this is because your ((influencers))) told you this. >NO some other gameNintendo has a long tradition of people trying to port games who the hardware does not support see DOOM on the SNES.The hardware is literally made for ninendos mario slop nothing more.
>>109637925>>Mario 64 is a game with guns where you kill peopleAre you being dense on purpose?>>109637824>Goldeneye>The only reason you are obsessed over this is because your ((influencers))) told you this.The reason I'm obsessed with this is because I grew up with a N64 while also playing PC games in a family with older siblings and higher than average PC hardware and hated shit performance.
>>109637953>Talk about mario 64>I point out that no none noticed that it was le bad and no one will>B-b-b- what about this over game?>I point out how tis changing of the subject is retarded and >Nintendo has a long tradition of people trying to port games who the hardware does not support see DOOM on the SNES.>The hardware is literally made for ninendos mario slop nothing more.WE are finished here
>>109637993You\re the one who replied to >>109637824 with >>109637845...Maybe it's time for your meds?
>>109637798Yes. Anyone who says otherwise is coping. Nobody ITT could do what Kaze does every day.
>>109637925>((influencers)))jesus christ, shut the fuck up retard
>>109627640I dot think I've seen Mario 64 crash, I've indeed send Mario into the void but that's basically going through the game's textures/edges on certain specific locations
>>109637763brace inline or next-row is a personal choice, not a syntax error
>>109638488it cannot
>>109637616but what people are saying is that it was hilariously bad so much so the game now runs on a gameboy advance
>>109637846I think the issue is that devs drank Nintendo's kool-aid that the Switch is a home console you can take on the go. Rather than the reality of it being a handheld you plug in>Hurr durr, this makes no differenceNo, handheld games and home console/PC games require fundamentally different design paradigms
>>109636688
>>109628028Not only that, but C compilers were much more primitive with optimizations in the 90s.
The problem with /g/, such as those in the game dev general thread, is they think the purpose of making games is to make the most efficient game engine ever. That is the wrong mindset for a game dev. Games are supposed to be fun and interesting, nobody cares how efficient the code is. That is what operating systems and web browsers are supposed to focus on, but they have given up on that.
>>109639660>Games are supposed to be fun and interestingsomebody tell the game studios that
>>109627582This faggot will NEVER release his game, it's more about teasing us and satisfying his optimization ocd than releasing a game at this point.
>>109627582botw/totk physics, simple as
>>109627582I'm willing to bet all the money in my wallet that literally zero people have ever actually outright made that claim.
>>109640508>This faggot will NEVER release his gamehow do you know
another question is why Kaze did not upload the new episode for so long
>>109636465>hate kaze casue he talks in terms about this shit like the developers were just dumb and lazyNo he doesn't. You sound retarded and projecting.
>>109640508He has released multiple full hacks already and you can literally watch him work on it, it's almost only polish left. Besides, he has an actual dev job his game/youtube is a hobby so considering the scale of the project it's normal that it takes time.
>>109627582Your looking at a launch title, half his optimizations are applying techniques Nintendo used on later titles.
>>109627582>heh those stupid 90s programmers who made primordial 3D games having to meet corporate deadlines sure were stupid idiots
>>109627620Lotsa mad responses to this one, fpbp
>>heh those stupid 90s programmers who made primordial 3D games having to meet corporate deadlines sure were stupid idiotsHoly projection, OP didn't even say anything like that.
>>109639602None of the things people praise Metal Gear for are related to it's programming
>>109644951samefag
>>109645267You obviously have no idea what you are talking about retard
>>109644951Funniest samefag of the week.
>>109645267https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_EngineOne of the best engines ever made.
>>109627582is his source open source?
>>109645358see >>109643983
>>109645358you can decompile sm64 yourself any time
>>109645372you know nothing about me!
>>109628068rust doesnt prevent leaks
