>>462276
>Graphic design is hiring an EXPERT WHO KNOWS MORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT THIS, and is trained in a multitude of disciplines to create things that work across multiple different levels of art, community, society, industry, technology, history, psychology, and more. Your little ideas of what you want your logo to look like don’t have even a fraction of the education or training behind them that we do and are basically useless to us, and that’s because WE’RE THE PROFESSIONALS IN THIS.

>>462276
>>462277
doesn't need to *always* be true in order to contain truth.

but it is an observational phenomenon that many clients have counterproductive trust in their own aesthetic taste, yea. you wouldn't tell a hired programmer what to do how, but since people are surrounded by designs, they feel oh-so secure and informed in their own opinions...

doesn't *have to be a problem by definition*, but quite likely is. and the degree of risk of course increases with scale of the business/investments

>>462279
the context was me wanting to submit my own drafts and mockups as input to the designer to show them stuff I liked and why (what it evoked, etc).

I think design is different from programming in that the company owner has better understanding of their industry, market and business than the designer and so their input isn't of no value. Programming is highly technical and more objective, the subjectivity of design is what leads to this situation.

I get your point and agree altogether though, but I wouldn't work with someone who wouldn't look at my mockups or listen to my input. To me it's insanity to suggest otherwise. I don't want them to copy my mockups of course, but I would want to submit images I felt captured some element or vibe I'd potentially like reproduced in the final in the same manner I'd want to submit a text description describing what I'm looking for.

>>462285
>the company owner has better understanding of their industry, market and business than the designer and so their input isn't of no value.

Thing is that you aren't hiring a designer to do any of the things a business owner (allegedly) has a better understanding of...and if he hired you, you likely wouldnt appreciate him thinking you can't do your job well without him getting involved up front.
Ideally a designer is just as superior in understanding HIS business and industry so why should he feel differently?

Even where there might be some esoteric aspect of your niche that requires special attention in a marketing context, a good designer not only knows to research it up front but he will do so from a different and broader perspective that is focused on HIS job of meeting the overarching goals of your project.

Bottom line is that your input is in choosing the artist, considering his proposals and choosing between them, and either picking one or asking about changes *at that point* and then either accepting or rejecting what he comes up with.
You are in control 100% of the way; he can't force anything on you so the idea that you have "no input" is both illogical and a huge red flag when a design client is complaining about it up front.

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>>462285
right. yea well, what you are saying probably fits a certain situation. it is still true that many clients treat the journey-to-finished-logo like planning the interior of their private bedrooms.
>I am so informed in what a nice bedroom should look like, as beauty is so directly evident in my conscious experience
but this fact can also be abused as pseudo-argument by the designer.

maybe they just aren't great at doing what you want and trying to shift attention. maybe you messaged like a dick, not showing the appropriate respect for the person you are asking to do business with you. maybe the offered material doesn't fit with each other. or maybe your taste simply shouldn't inform anything visual other than the wall color in your bedroom...

what I am trying to convey is that based on the current details of the story, it isn't really possible to know exactly. there could be many reasons, but I see no evidence to eliminate any.

there is a simple management principle, designers are usually being taught as well:
a project consists of 3 important dimensions. 1) available time, 2) creative freedom, 3) cash money.
it is general wisdom that as a designer you should *never* sacrifice all three of them but only do projects with at least one of those qualities.
>so *if* your priority is a low price, then they should at least be offered enough time *or* creative freedom.
>*if* you want to have creative control, then you either have to offer them a lot of money or a lot of time to find something that fits expectations.

for a more concrete answer you need to upload what you offered them.

>>462306
>Thing is that you aren't hiring a designer to do any of the things a business owner (allegedly) has a better understanding of
You're hiring them to collaborate and meet the owners goals of brand vision. The owners input and specifications form the basis of the work that needs to be delivered. Their input fundementally defines the task.

>You are in control 100% of the way; he can't force anything on you so the idea that you have "no input" is both illogical and a huge red flag when a design client is complaining about it up front.
This, basically. That's why I thought the sentiment in the screencap was garbo.

>>462307
It was a thread I made not a private message, I just thought the feedback was bizarre. I posted some drafts I had that I wanted to take to a designer to use as examples of the kind of vibe I'm looking for (in conjunction with explanations of what I feel they captured etc) and was met with an insane degree of pushback like it was horribly offensive and not allowed. Wasn't looking to confine the designer to working within those drafts, but if I hired someone I'd want the freedom to send mockups I felt captured something or had some element I wanted to preserve in the final logo.

IDK it was just a reddit meltdown I thought was funny.

>>462308
what you are saying sounds reasonable to me! I think the person probably projected and overreacted.
what they are writing isn't completely unsubstantiated, but also probably just an unrelated meltdown, yea.

>>462306
thing is: what you are saying is true, but kinda requires the existence of either a) reputation or b) emotional investment as a dimension to the game.

if the client chooses a reputable designer, then the project turns into "I want to buy the embodied vision of the reputable designer, whom I can trust", which of course also motivates the designer to come up with work that feeds back into their reputation.

but if the designer doesn't already have reputation, or cannot really expect to gain reputation from the project, then the payoff matrix in the game of trust changes substantially!
as a customer, when there is no status and reputation involved... how to take the other humans judgement serious? there is idiots and assholes *everywhere*, including in graphic design.
you don't hire out of love in their work, nor is it to be expected that they perceive your project as a status boost. maybe they just want an easy life, ripping off customers by telling them that their lazy/stupid "solution" is more informed than their customer's opinion (?)

>>462309
Yeah I think they're just projecting and not reading / parsing what I'm really saying.

Do designers work with web developers too, or what does that connection look like? I can code the site (and would prefer to do it myself), but would they provide all the media files and fonts etc I'd need to pull off the design? I'd need all that as well as the design files for what it's supposed to look like. Or do designers only do a mockup rendition of a site or something?

>>462322
eyyy, read my messages carefully!

I made sure to give a balanced answer and emphasize how it is not *just* them projecting, but how their description does indeed point at something real.

>>462327
Lol, you said it too:
>I think the person probably projected and overreacted.

>their description does indeed point at something real.
How can you know if you weren't there?

>>462328
yea, they are probably projecting in this case AND pointing at something actual.
>as I said, learn how to read carefully -.-

>>462276
designers are only like this for their first couple of years, when they actually think what they do matters

after many years, you realize you just want to finish each project as soon as possible, and get paid.

>I want this horrible png/gif added to the website/flyer/design
>here you go bro, knock yourself out

they're happy, I'm happy, and I get ready for the next project. huge chances they dislike it in the near future, and they're going to pay me to change it again