/his/tards told me that the Nahuas sacrificed people because if not the Sun would die and the end of the world would happen. But Mesoamerican myths say otherwise, they already had four suns and ends of the world, the sacrifice was not made to create the Sun but to move it (the four gods Tezcatlipoca, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc and Chalchiuhtlicue sacrificed themselves as Nanahuatzin and Tecuciztécatl but continued to appear in the myths unlike them) and the four worlds ended not because of a lack of sacrifices, but because of the struggle of the four gods between themselves (Tezcatlipoca released jaguars that devoured the Giants because he was overthrown by Quetzalcoatl, Quetzalcoatl turned men into monkeys because they could not resist the winds of Tezcatlipoca, Tlaloc turned men into roasted turkeys with rain of fire and lava because they did not take him seriously and Chalchiuhtlicue turned men into fish in a flood of tears because she was exposed by Tezcatlipoca).Huitzilopochtli as the fifth sun seems like an Mexica retcon because he has his own origin myth related to Aztlan besides Chicomoztoc like the other Nahuatl peoples, totally different from the traditional one of the four gods. What is most curious is that the sacrifices were not to move the sun as in the previous myths, but for the sacrificed to fight with him against his sister Moon and brothers Stars and die again/reincarnate ad infinitum until prophesied earthquakes and famines end the world again because of another cosmic intrigue.
>Religion and rites were of fundamental importance in the lives of the Mexica people, and among these, human sacrifice stood out as the greatest offering that could be made to the gods>In the center of Mexico-Tenochtitlán City stretched a vast ceremonial center organized around an important sanctuary, the Templo Mayor, composed of approximately seventy buildings. About ten thousand people, including priests and priestesses, singers, dancers, nobles, and officials of all kinds, gathered there to watch, dance, and sing>There are several mythical explanations for the origin of the sacrifices, but they all relate to the gods and the creation of the world. The Aztecs had a deep connection with observing the stars, and these were directly related to Mexica religiosity, as was the case with the Mayans>The two main gods of Aztec society were Tezcatlipoca and Huitzilopochtli>The first of these represented the night sky, connecting with the star gods, the moon, death, evil, and destruction. His name means "smoking mirror," and he was also the god of providence and destiny>Huitzilopochtli was her counterpart, representing the daytime sky, the blue sky, the incarnation of the sun, the young warrior who was born every morning from the womb of the ancient earth goddess and died every afternoon to illuminate the world of the dead, Mictlán, with his light>According to Aztec legend, Coatlicue, the earth goddess, was the mother of the moon and stars. However, the earth became pregnant again, sparking intense jealousy among her daughters. When they heard the news, they became enraged to the point of killing their mother>Coatlicue wept, but her son, within her womb, consoled her, saying he would defend her whenever necessary. When the jealous daughters arrived to sacrifice their mother, a fiery serpent emerged from within her, like a whip, violently cutting off the moon's head and sending the stars fleeing
>Thus, the god Huitzilopochtli was born from ancient Mother Earth, who from then on would wage an eternal battle against his brothers, the stars and the Moon, in the form of a fiery serpent. The image evokes the first ray of sunlight that rises from the earth, ending the night>Upon consummating his victory, he, the Sun, was carried on his shoulders to the middle of the sky by the souls of warriors killed in war and those killed in human sacrifices. His triumph over his nocturnal brothers meant a new day of life for mankind, a new chance in the search for food and survival>Therefore, the Aztecs believed this divine battle was fought every day. For the Sun to triumph, it needed to be strong and vigorous, and therefore, mankind had to feed it>Otherwise, it would be night forever. Therefore, eclipses were signs of misfortune. But since the Sun was a god, it could only be nourished by its own life, from the magical substance found in human blood>This is the religious origin of human sacrifice, and the representation of the sun, rising and dying, was always enacted in every ritual honoring the god Huitzilopochtli. The Sun played an important role, as it provided the light and warmth for life to exist>At the heart of everything was the notion of debt. A creature owed its life and everything that made life possible to the gods. This had to be acknowledged, and the debt repaid through the offering of incense, tobacco, food, and even one's own blood>The main focus was feeding the gods, so that they would be vitalized, although this could also be done with animals and other foods, in addition to herbs and flowers
the final redpill is that human sacrifices are based despite christkikes and "enlightened" busybodies saying otherwise
>>17958233You omitted that the Gods were also sacrificed. Sure it wasn't the most common sacrifice in Aztec religion but it was the more significant type, and by omitting it you are taking a bit of depth from their religion. Also, Tlaloc was the other God venerated at the Templo Mayor. You should also talk about him. Not saying Tezcatlipoca wasn't important. But you can't just not talk about the Rain God.>>17958559Christians love human sacrifice though.As long as it's just the one guy.
>>17958207The idea that the Aztecs sacrificed one person each day specifically because they thought it was necessary to "make the sun rise the next day" is just a silly pop culture trope made to make them seen even more self-destructively superstitious and stupid than just regular human sacrifice would. Same thing with shit like the idea that the ballgame had human sacrifice as part of its rules.In reality, Mesoamerican Human Sacrifice didn't really have one grand goal, it and ritual bloodletting were just what they did to pay back the gods for patronage and creating the world and stuff. The Aztecs did have one ritual involving human sacrifice whose successful undertaking was supposedly associated with keeping the sun around, which is where the myth likely comes from, but it was done once every 52 years, so obviously they didn't actually believe that they needed to cut one heart out every single day just to keep the lights on.
Looking through a modern lense, this is just the equivalent of Marvel slopCaptchs s0yr8
>>17959063It's a bit sad how the fact of the sacrifice itself overshadows everything else about Meso-American religious practices. Especially the Aztecs, who tend to play the heel against Mayan Babyfaces, so to speak. This even affected academic perceptions of them. I'm currently reading an old book on Maya art that talks about this.>>17959153Every mythology has the potential to be marvel tier capeshit when stripped of it's ritual and symbolic meaning. E.G: Thor, the marvel hero. God, the family guy character. The only reason Jesus isn't part of the Justice League is because people still venerate him.
>>17959153Reddit takeDo you see the US government sacrificing bulls at the Temple of Captain America to gain divine favor before every foreign intervention? If not then no, pagan religions are absolutely not the pre-modern equivalents of capeshit, a focus on mythological narratives is a modern phenomenon, ancient peoples would have focused on the rituals
>>17958559Christianity is based around human sacrifice though
>>17959207>who tend to play the heel against Mayan Babyfaces, so to speakThat's an even sillier misconception. In reality, the Maya not only also practiced human sacrifice in the exact same way, but they were pretty much always on the receiving end of cultural exchange from Central Mexican cultures like the Aztecs and their predecessors like Teotihuacan. They adopted the worship of central mexican deities, their specific rituals, their artstyles, and Maya elites proudly claimed descent from central mexican conquerors and learned their languages. Ironically, the Aztecs were a prestigious beating heart of culture & civilization for the region while the Maya were the barbarians who looked in awe at their accomplishments and sought to emulate them rather than the other way around as is popularly assumed.
>>17959231I know. That's why I brought it up. In the early days Mayanists genuinely thought the Mayans did not do human sacrifice and instead this was a corruption of their pure astronomic religion by the mean evil aztecs. This was like, 1950s. > In reality, the Maya not only also practiced human sacrifice in the exact same way, but they were pretty much always on the receiving end of cultural exchange from Central Mexican cultures like the Aztecs and their predecessors like Teotihuacan. You are exaggerating a bit here. They were roughly on equal footing. Though obviously the Mayans were on the downturn by the 1400s.
>>17959266>In the early days Mayanists genuinely thought the Mayans did not do human sacrificeI mean early Maya research even assumed they lived in egalitarian societies with no warfare. If you erase all weapons and warfare, it's natural to assume they didn't ever get the idea to stab someone on an altar.
>>17959211The US government is the Israeli government and they have an obsession with breeding a cow of a specific color to sacrifice
>>17959660But do they do it in honor of Captain America? No, they do it for Moloch or whatever the fuck you schizos think
>>17959913Doing it for Moloch is the same as doing it for Captain America, that's the point. They sacrifice children to a James Gunn
The Spanish killed more people than the Aztecs and they did it with weapons of mass destruction which remind you of nuclear weapons. Therefore the Aztecs can be forgiven for their killings.
I don't have time to give a more in depth reply to all of this right now, but the short version is that a lot of people get different beliefs and myths mixed up, and one such mixup here in regards to >>17958207 is the conflation of the New Fire Ceremony and some of the practices and beliefs around it, with the Five Suns creation myth, as well as beliefs around the sun going into Mictlan or being eaten by Tlatecuhtli at night/during eclipsesThere are no myths or beliefs around Huitzliopotchli being the fifth sun as far as I know, but some sources like Wikipedia claims he was and that he fights off the Tzitzimime, which I also don't think is an actual thing unless maybe the fact the Tzitzimime and the Centzon Huitznahuas (his brothers, a group of giants) both symbolically are associated with stars might insituate a connection. But the Tzitzimime ARE said to descend during eclipses and as a particular potential threat during the New Fire ceremony, where it was thought that the world would end it it was not preformed, so if nothing else that is an explicit instance of sacrifices being needed to prevent the apocalypse. As the OP brings up, sacrifices of the gods was done to both create and animate/start it's movement in some creation myths, so I think also part of the idea is that by not having sacrifices the sun's movement through the sky might cease, or that it might not make it's journey through Mictlan, but I'm not specifically aware of sources explicitly laying that out. And while sometimes even many academic sources repeat incorrect ideas (the 4 Tezcatlipocas as a quartet, or the Mexica demanding sacrificial victims as taxes often/it leading to the Mexica being hated and Cortes getting allies), there's so much analysis in relation to sacrifices as a method of ordering and sustaining the cosmos that I think there's more to it beyond just the New Fire Ceremony, which itself gives it at least some direct basist. Mesoanon
>>17959207What is the name of the book? I want to read it.
>>17964559The Blood of KingsIt's just the introduction part. The rest is about art.
>>17959153Every single piece of literature before 1700 that wasn't a government document is the historical equivalent of marvelslop. The incognito reddit tourists here who deny it only do so because they want to preserve the "cool" mystery of being a contrarian who enjoys le old thing instead of new thing. Just skim through the Odyssey or Illiad and tell yourself, with a straight face, that it's highbrow stuff to be taken any more seriously than the infantilized media produced by modern society.
>>17961210cont:Still don't have time to clarify on this more, DESU there's some aspects of this I need to do more research on, but to briefly respond to other stuff in the thread and we'll loop back to some of what I said above along the way>>17958220>The two main gods...were Tezcatlipoca and HuitzilopochtliYou could absolutely make a good argument for this, but you could also make the same argument for Huitzilopochtli and Tlaloc, MAYBE throwing Quetzalcoatl in some combinations too. Also if we're talking about almost any "Aztec"/Nahua group other then the Mexica then Huitzilopochtli would be not particularly important to outright irrelevant, other groups and cities had their own patron deities (Cholula's was Quetzalcoatl at least in the Late Postclassic, Tlaxcala's was an aspect of Mixcoatl, Texcoco's was Tezcatlipoca IIRC, etc) or others with elevated/diminished importance accordingly. >[Tezcatlipoca] represented the night sky, connecting with the star gods, the moon, death, evil, and destruction...he was also the god of providence and destinyMy understanding is Tezcatlipoca's primary attribute was fate/providence/destiny and it's fickle and chaotic nature. His ties to the night sky, unless I've overlooked stuff (and I may have, if you got some sources etc link me) seem not even secondary but tertiary, with his links to Jaguars and sorcery also being of arguable levels of importance, with his ties to warriors and rulers also being notableHe's not a death god, I don't think I've EVER seen anybody associate him with the Moon, and while he's capricious and often a trickster or antagonistic, I think saying he's "evil" if iffy: both that and links to "destruction" are (AFAK) more a symptom of him representing how fate/chance can bring about disruptive change/cataclysms or ruinDeities like Tlatecuhtli or the Tzitzimime are a lot more associated with "destruction" or arguably evil/malice, but even they have positive attributes re: motherhood 2/?
bumping to continue to reply to stuff tommorow
>>17958207Public executions have always been primarily a form of mass entertainment.
