It Seems Davidski was right all alonghttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09437-6
>>17972492>Greeks aren't European or whiteOBVIOUSLY have you seen how they all look like gypsies?
>>17972492also total svetovid victory, balkan slavs are a minimum of 50% slavic
I feel like I've seen this exact map before. Was there a preprint of this?
>>17972531no, a completely different study that uses similar pie charts
>>17972531You probably remember the viminacium paper (picrel)https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01135-2another study showing greeks being a third slavic
Davidski isn’t right. Everyone knew Greeks had Slavic ancestry. He claimed something like they had no Mycenaean blood and were just Slavic and Levantine mixes that somehow appeared to have an Ancient Greek influence because they balanced each other out.Modern Greeks seem like they are a third Slavic a third Mycenaean and a third Anatolian. Ancient Greek DNA is still a large part of their ancestry.
>>17972591bro, even iosif surrendered
>>17972492Despite that Gayreeks are more related to Palestinians than they are to swedes or the Irish
>>17972610depends on the greek
>>17972610>swedes>irish>doesn't mention slavsconvenient
>>17972615For some reason Bedouins are closer to Gayreeks than Russians.
>>17972627>old ass study that uses 3500 snps
>>17972642he's a modern fst chart that uses hundreds of thousands of snps
>>17972609He’s literally agreeing with what I said here can you read?
>>17972656he's not, greks probably have little to no ancient greek ancestry, they're largely slavic+anatolian+some balkan, sometimes the balkan/anatolian is mistaken for mycenean
>>17972492>>17972545the ancient greeks were completely replaced, there are no more myceneans in this world
>>17972651greeks are just slavo-anatolians
>>17972642They took measures to make it robust and consistent. Low number doesn't automatically mean bad.
>>17972672Pretty much, they're equidistant between azeris and ukranians
>>17972675>They took measures to make it robust and consistent. quit yapping, it's just an fst chart, they took as many measures to make it robust and consistent as any other study that released fst charts, it uses an extremely low amount of snps, 3500 is abysmally low, these days 100000 snps for a sample is considered low, 3500 snps would be borderline unusable in 2025
>>17972686It still produced a good estimation, retard.The results are almost 1 to 1 with this table >>17972651
>>17972698>It still produced a good estimationno, it has various inaccuracies because of its extremely low coverage, just use a modern fst chart
>>17972672So are Sicilians and Calabrese but more Latin Anatolians
>>17972708south italians are proper three way mutts of anatolians, italics and germanics, greeks are different because the iron age southern european component has almost completely disappeared and they're largely slav+anatolian with only a little bit of mycenean ancestry
>>17972707They are all minor. Mostly a .001 difference.
>>17972492That means slavshit ancestry is female-mediated keeeeek. Slav(e) cumdumpsters were bred by Thraco-Greco-Anatolian BVLLS.
>>17972730Slavix sisters, our response?
>>17972730No? I1, I2, R1a amount to what would you expect.
>>17972753I1, I2, R1a is what you would expect form ~30%.
>>17972763An absorotio of assimilated slavs with no gender bias. This is seen here
>>17972753Those are paleo balkan markers. Not albanian. Slightly less native Y dna compared to autosomal dna.
>>17972730>>17972753you cherrypicked the study (? is this even a study) with the smallest percentage of I2normally greeks are 40% r1a+I2
>>17972772He is coping. The slavic Y dna in Greeks is what is to be expected, or even slightly more.
>>17972767greeks have even more slavic ydna than slavic ancestry >>17972772macedonian greeks are 1/3 slavic but 45% r1a+I2
>>17972776Yep. You right.
>>17972772Sorry slavshit. The study on Albanians already exposed your cuck Slav(e) cumdumpster race.
>>17972823Only I2a-Y3120 is Slavic btw.
>>17972823albania is not greece, look here >>17972772 or pic relatedhttps://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474continental the ydna of greece is 30% to 45% slavic
>>17972930the picture from the study
>>17972753>It is not known whether individuals with elevated East European-related ancestry who mixed with Albanians were primarily male, female, or had an even sex ratio. To test for sex bias, we compared ancestry proportions on the X-chromosome with autosomes using qpAdm. The results were inconclusive, likely due to limited X-chromosome markers (4.6k SNPs vs. 1240k SNPs on autosomes) and high standard errors (S1 Text; Table S4).>https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v2.full
>>17972823>crimean greekswow you are desperatelook at all that I2, I1 and R1a, greeks are simply cucks
>>17972930>>17972932That says Thessaly is only about 15-20% Slavic y-dna wise though? That's the samples they use for Greeks most of the time. Bulgaria and Romania also seem to have female mediated Slavic ancestry.
>>17972956>That says Thessaly is only about 15-20% Slavic y-dna wise though?no, it's around 25%, remember that I1 in greece is also slavic, overall greece is more slavic ydna wise than in admixture>That's the samples they use for Greeks most of the time.unsubstantiated claim>Bulgaria and Romania also seem to have female mediated Slavic ancestry.both have more than 50% slavic ydna, so noalso let's keep the argument confined to greece
>>17972976>no, it's around 25%, remember that I1 in greece is also slavic,Even with this pathetic cope which is obviously not true (I1 is Germanic) that would still be below the 30% Slavic autosomal stated in the OP. Greeks do not have 30% Slavic y-dna on average.
>>17972660Pretty sure this is not a bad model, I'm not bragging fellas. But this is, you know. I'm a genius, is what it is.
>>17972987I1 is also Slavic, the i1 in Greece is Slavic, Thessaly isn't Thessaloniki, Thessaly greeks aren't numerous overall when all Greeks are pooled the ydna of slavs is proportionally more than the Slavic autosomal ancestry
>>17973025I1 in the Balkans is GOTHIC, Slavshit. Goths were there before the Avars dragged your ass in chains to the region.
>A genetic study published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology in 2018 examined 62 individuals buried in the 8th and 9th centuries at an Avar-Slavic burial in Cífer‐Pác, Slovakia.[52] Of the 46 samples of mtDNA extracted, 93% belonged to west Eurasian lineages, while 6% belonged to east Eurasian lineages.[53] The amount of east Eurasian lineages was higher than among modern European populations, but lower than what has been found in other genetic studies on the Avars.[54] The mtDNA of the examined individuals was found to be quite similar to medieval and modern Slavs, and it was suggested that the mixed population examined had emerged through intermarriage between Avar males and Slavic females.Cuck race
>>17973042No, I'm not Slavic and the i1 in Greece is there because of slavs, it's a Slavic clades of i1, we're not gonna discuss it, cretin, and now the argument >>17972772, Slavic ydna in Greece is more than the Slavic ancestry
>>17972591>He claimed something like they had no Mycenaean bloodHe's right.
>>17972609>>17972660>>17972930>>17972937Total 80 IQ latinx mestizo death.
>>17972507>ultranationalist>is 50% actual espoused nationality>50% defeated weak cuck nationalityWhy are they like this?
>>17973072Comes down to what type of Slavs were moving into Greece. Were they already South Slav like or were they early Slav-like/predated the South Slav homogenization period? If this paper has something to say about this I'll have my guy read it to me.
>>17973110Probably south slav like, considering the increase in balkan e-v13 in Greece
>>17973062There is no Slavic I1, clown. Any I1 in Slavshits came from the Goths. I2b isn't Slavic either. Greeks are only 21% I2a + R1a despite being 30% Slavic autosomally according to what the OP said. Basically confirming the same thing as the Albanian study: >>17972753
>>17973151No they are Slavic clades of i1You are posting eupedia garbage with half the samples being Greek Islanders These are literally all the ydna studies about Greece >>17972772 Greeks are on average 35 to 40% i2 and r1a, loser cretin, come back with an actual study or don't even bother reply to me
>>17973220You and your discord tranny friend already self-owned yourselves with this: >>17972930>>17972932 Thessally is often used as a proxy for the average Greek in studies and they're only about 20% as well. You wuz not kangz, Ivan. Slav(e)s are a cuckold race that was sex trafficked in the Balkans by Avars.
>>17973151>>17973237You've destroyed the brown 80 IQ mestizo tranny over and over in this thread. Xhe's crying in South America.
>>17973237>You and your discord tranny friend already self-owned yourselves with this: >>17972930uh?>Thessally is often used as a proxy for the average Greek in studies unsubstantiated claim and nonsense to justify your false claims, thessaly is not even close to be one of the most populous regions of greecelet's see the haplogroups in detail from that studypeloponnese (more populous than thessaly) = 17.3% I2 + 11.2% R1a + 1.1% I1 = 29.6%, more than the slavic ancestry (25%)macedonia (way more populous than thessaly) = 16.3 I2 + 14.9% R1a +6.4% I1 = 37.6%, more than the slavic ancestry (30%)thrace (as populous as thessaly) = 17.1% I2 + 22.0% R1a + 2.4% I1 = 40.5%, more than the slavic ancestry (35%-40%)thessaly = 12.5% I2 + 11.1% R1a + 4.2% I1 = 27.8%, more or less as much as the slavic ancestry (25-30%)
>>17973275pathetic obvious self reply
>>17972545GegAlbanians are 25% autosmally slav but less than 12% paternally Slav. We fucked your whores and we need to delete Slav male lineages.
>>17973237The Slavs were slaves of the Turco-Mongols, but the bastards fathered by Avar men leading the Slavs seem to have sided with their European mothers and switched sides to the Byzantines against the pure blooded Avars.>Each year, the Huns [Avars] came to the Slavs, to spend the winter with them; then they took the wives and daughters of the Slavs and slept with them, and among the other mistreatments [already mentioned] the Slavs were also forced to pay levies to the Huns. But the sons of the Huns, who were [then] raised with the wives and daughters of these Wends could not finally endure this oppression anymore and refused obedience to the Huns and began, as already mentioned, a rebellion.
>>17973283Albanians are 35% Slavic autosomally and Greek_Athens is at the 25% mark it's in the study >>17972492
>>17973283thankfully i said greek and not albanian
>>17972767>balkan not AlbanianSame thing. Albanians are the most pure balkanites with the highest percentage of ancient Balkan YDNA from yamnaya and farmers.
>>17973287i'm not slavic so all this anti slavic stuff has no effect on mebut look here >>17973280 it's funny that greeks were cumdumpsters for slavic males
>>17973298albanians are mutts no different from the average continental greek, they're probably 1/3 balkan on a good day
>>17973300I never said you were Slavic you're a brown 80 IQ latinx mestizo. Slavs were/are cumdumpsters for Greek, Arab, Persian, Albanian, Mongol, Tajik, Turkish, Georgian, etc, males.
>>17973291>>17973296I2a-l621+R1a Slav markers11.5% Ghegs17.5% TosksWish it was less. We won though.
>>17973280it's funny because greeks were j2a, i think the only j2b are from the balkan admixed mygadalia site, and like 1/3 to half of the j2 in greece is j2b, likely from the balkansbetween j2b and e-v13 it's pretty obvious that most of the non slavic and non west asian ancestry in greece is likely balkan and not mycenean
>>17973309>muttsWe’re more pure Balkan than Swedes are pure Germanic.
>>17973323Yes Albanian (Illyrian + Thracian also called Dardanian)
>>17973322We are talking about greece, do you understand this?>>17973318>you're a brown 80 IQ latinx mestizoprojecting much?>Slavs were/are cumdumpsters for Greek, Arab, Persian, Albanian, Mongol, Tajik, Turkish, Georgian, etc, males.greeks are cumdumpesters for slavs, in turkey the slavic ydna is more predominant than the slavic ancestry, so they're also cumdumpsters for slavs, the rest have no slavic ancestry outside albanians, so just weird mexican fantasies
>>17973280>let's see the haplogroupsNo, I2b and I1 have nothing to do with Slavs.>peloponnese (more populous than thessalyBrown mestizo retard. Cyprus and Crete are far more populous than Macedonia and Thrace. Athens, Cyprus, and Crete are completely dominated by E1b1b, J2, and R1b.>>17973330>projecting much?Do you have a new ethnicity, brown retard?>in turkey the slavic ydnaNothing. There's like 8% R1a in Turkey and it's the Iranic kind. Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Persians, and Armenians literally had harems of European women, mostly Slavs. >the rest have no slavic ancestry outside albaniansSlavs are bitching about Arabs, Georgians, and Tajiks fucking Slavic women while Rusgols and Ugaynians slaughter each other.
>>17973346>No, I2b and I1 have nothing to do with Slavs.I1 in the region is slavic>Brown mestizo retard. Cyprus and Crete are far more populous than Macedonia and Thrace. Athens, cyprus isn't greece (don't care about their ethnic identification, not greece) and crete is not more populous than any of those regions, it's at best as populous as thrace with both having around half a million inhabitants>Cyprus, and Crete are completely dominated by E1b1b, J2, and R1b.they also have much less slavic ancestry, and cyprus is not greecefor athens that is not true >>17972772 they're around 25% r1a and I>Do you have a new ethnicity, brown retard?you are literally brown>Nothing. There's like 8% R1a in Turkey and it's the Iranic kind. Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Persians, and Armenians literally had harems of European women, mostly Slavs. turks have little to no slavic ancestry, the others have literally 0 slavic ancestry, outside of greeks of course, that have more slavic ydna than ancestry>Slavs are bitching about Arabs, Georgians, and Tajiks fucking Slavic women while Rusgols and Ugaynians slaughter each other.
>>17973330We’re talking about Albania NOW
>>17973362not interested in the argument sorry, you'll have to talk about albania alone
A lot of the R1a in the Balkans comes from Scythians/Bashkirs/Tatars as well, not Slavs.
>>17973357>I1 in the region is slavicIt's a Germanic haplogroup. Germanics raped your people through history. They are one of the many big sex tourist groups going to your country and having sex with your women along with Arabs and Blacks.>cyprus isn't greeceConcession accepted.>crete is not more populous than any of those regionsCrete (600,000) is more populous than Eastern Macedonia and Thrace (500,000) and Peloponnese (500,000), retard.>for athens that is not true >>17972772 they're around 25% r1a and I1That number is including I2b like the Aromanians, mestizo retard. Athens is 25% early Slavic autosomally but 15% R1a and 6% I2a. Slavic cumdumpsters were used by Greek men.>you are literally brownDon't even bother making another fake ethnicity for yourself. Nothing will ever change you are a dirty little brown South American tranny.>turks have little to no slavic ancestryThey are 10-20% Slavic autosomally without any Slavic ydna.>Slavs are bitching about Arabs, Georgians, and Tajiks fucking Slavic women while Rusgols and Ugaynians slaughter each other.I broke this brown South American tranny. He repeated it twice and made a new post.
>>17973375>It's a Germanic haplogroup. Germanics raped your people through history. They are one of the many big sex tourist groups going to your country and having sex with your women along with Arabs and Blacks.no, there are various clades of I1, the ones in the southern balkans are slavic, you are simply a stupid dipshit>Concession accepted.cyprus isn't greece, don't mention it again>Crete (600,000) is more populous than Eastern Macedonia and Thrace (500,000) and Peloponnese (500,000), retard.Eastern Macedonia and Thrace has 560.000 inhabitantshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Macedonia_and_ThracePeloponnese has 1.150.000 inhabitantshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponneseyou are literally completely fucking retarded>That number is including I2b like the Aromanians, mestizo retard. Athens is 25% early Slavic autosomally but 15% R1a and 6% I2a. Slavic cumdumpsters were used by Greek men.I2b is extremely rare in greece (like 1% on average), almost all the I is I2a, so athens is around 26% r1a and I, retard faggot literally making up numbers>Don't even bother making another fake ethnicity for yourself. Nothing will ever change you are a dirty little brown South American tranny.inventing an ethnicity? you are literally a mentally ill brown homosexual>They are 10-20% Slavic autosomally without any Slavic ydna.more like 5% slavic>I broke this brown South American tranny. He repeated it twice and made a new post.
>>17973131I think if that's the case, Mycenaean admixture probably is very low like people have been saying. There's no way it's not there at all but it might be sub-10% in some places. Going to come down to working out the Roman-Byzantine story and how Mycenaean Greeks were around then. That new paper with Corinth colonials kind of made it look like that profile just disappeared by the Roman period. They went all over the place and people from all over the place moved in. Then there were probably plural depopulation events there pre-Slavs.
>>17973384this is the battaglia study, the 92 greeks are from athens>and consist of 104 Caucasians (38 Balkarians and 66 Georgians), 149 Greeks (92 from Athens and 57 from Macedonia)https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2947100/literally 0% I2b, lmao, 0%, not even 1%they have 6.5% I2a, I% I2 that is probably I2a but low quality and slavic I1
>>17973396northeast italians are 20% R1a+I2a, are they also rapebabies of slavs?
>>17973396>slavic I1Just because you keep repeating this doesn't make it true, tranny. It's from the Goths.
>>17973404Could be Goths into Slavs and then Slavs into Greece.
>>17973404greeks were raped by slavs>>17973401yes, northeast italians were also raped by slavs
>>17973420Look, stick to the study you originally posted, okay? It has a decent amount of samples comparable to the garbage wikipedia page you keep spamming. Slavs are cucks in every region here in relation to autosomal and they are cucks in other countries like Bulgaria, Romania and Albania as well.
>>17973430the wikipedia page includes sourced studies such as this or this >>17973396>Slavs are cucks in every region here in relation to autosomal literally the opposite is true as explained here >>17973280 (chart from the same study)>Bulgaria, Romania slavic ydna is higher than autosomal ancestry
>>17973438Latinx cholita sisters I don't feel so good...
>>17973457stop posting random garbage, post studies, according to karachanak et al they're almost at 50% slavic ydna just like their ancestry
>>17973473>Greeks 30-37% Slavshit-like ancestry, 20% Slavic y-dna. >Bulgarians55-59% Slavshit-like ancestry, 38% Slavic y-dna (assuming ALL R1a/I2a is Slavic which is unlikely)
>>17972492>Davidski was right all alongRare W for him. He was pro-vaxx and believed in COVID. Even though his actual polish brethren in Poland laughed at covmeme. It must be new world that changes people into sheeple.
>>17973486>30-37% Slavshit-like ancestry, 20% Slavic y-dna. this is completely false >>17973280 30% slavic ancestry and 35% slavic ydna, greeks have been cucked, this is undeniable, literally no region in continental greece is lower than 25% slavic in ydna>>17973486>55-59% Slavshit-like ancestry, 38% Slavic y-dna (assuming ALL R1a/I2a is Slavic which is unlikely)what is that shit you're posting, look at the OP image >>17972492 or the viminacium paper >>17972545 , they're around 50% slavic, and look here >>17972772 they're around 50% slavic in ydna toowhat even is the point of this conversation if you're just going to throw around random numberswhy the fuck are you talking about bulgarians in the first place, literally unable to not just from to a different argument every 2 posts
>>17973503Thessaly 30-37% Slavshit while being 23% R1a + I2a. You lost tranny. And Bulgarians aren't 50% in any study.
>>17973375>It's a Germanic haplogroup. Germanics raped your people through history. They are one of the many big sex tourist groups going to your country and having sex with your women along with Arabs and Blacks.You are an incel.
>>17973507>Thessaly 30-37% Slavshit while being 23% R1a + I2anot true, you literal brainlet, if macedonia is 30-35% >>17972545 >>17972492 according to studies, thessaly will be lower, at 30%, or maybe even a bit less and thessaly is almost 30% slavic in ydna >>17973280 and thessaly is fucking irrelevant, all of greece overall is more slavic in ydna>but thessaly is used as the averagenot true, false claim you pulled out of your ass and that wouldn't change the fact that when you include all regions of greece, the slavic ydna surpasses numerically the autosomal slavic ancestry>And Bulgarians aren't 50% in any studythey're almost 50% in all actual studies, they're 45-50% in the karachanak studies and 50% in the begona martinez-cruz, and that's the last time i'm even gonna address the bulgarians
>>17973514Mentally ill Latinx tranny. Stop spamming garbage and kys.
>>17973518you are literally projecting your browness on anonymous posters, you are also throwing around completely random numbers, this conversation is pointless
>>17972492they should consider themselves lucky, the greeks learned heterosexuality from the slavs
>>17973525Slavs will always be a cuckold race and you will always be a mentally ill tranny.
>>17973542You base this on what? Your incel brown fantasies?
>>17973542i bet you're a cuck
>>17973551Russian and Ukrainian women are fucking churkas and foreginers in other countries right now while you exterminate yourselves like good servile cucks,
>>17973542i'm done with this pointless conversation, you're just inventing numbers anyway, swarthy man
>>17973568Western women are fucking blacks, arab foreginers in their own countries right now while you castrate yourselves like good servile cucks,
>>17973542Genuinely wondering what kind of a mental illness drives people to be this aggressive and venomous. I mean, I get it, /his/ has safe edgy twitter mutts with pathetic lives that has nothing outside of discord circlejers, because analbanian and gayreek cunny gets gaped by turks and turned into kebab same as germroach and slavshit cunny. I guess people need a way to cope and cope they will right to the point where there will be nothing left of them.Feels good to be an Indian Brahmin. The age of saar is upon us.
>>17973025Any proof of it? Gothic/Varangian/other Germanic sounds more plausible>Thessaly Greeks aren't that numerousThessaly has a population of around 700000, with the vast majority being native Thessalians (unlike, say, Athens or Thessaloniki, where most inhabitants have ancestry from elsewhere)>>17972772These seem fairly inconsistent, with neighbouring regions getting very different results. It also doesn't break down haplogroups into subclades, which makes any estimation approximate at best>>17972843Same for this, sample size way too small, at least it distinguishes Slavic and non-Slavic clades of I2a >>17973110Given how rapid the expansion was, the fact that Slavs initially formed their own settlements (Sclaviniae) and Medieval Slavic samples from other Balkan countries having more proto-Slavic admixture than modern inhabitants of the same areas, I would say early Slav-like>>17973298Anachronism, Albanian identity is quite recent, you can't just apply it on people who lived thousands of years ago. Most of the native Balkan admixture in South Slavs was mediated by Vlachs/Balkan Romans
>>17973375Cyprus is not part of Greece, this is simply a fact. Peloponnesians are the most populous subgroup of Greeks,given that the geographic (not administrative) region of Peloponnese is home to roughly 1 million, mostly native, plus huge numbers in Athens (to a lesser extent this is also tru of Cycladians, Ionian Islanders and Central Greeks; the reverse is true of Macedonians, who barely make up 50% in their own region)>>17973396According to this, Slavic y-DNA is 23% in Athens and 28% in Thessaloniki, although I don't know how representative the samples are, given the mixed population of both cities
>>17973568You're arguing with a brown latinx tranny in Argentina (not one of the white Italian ones, it's brown mestiza), not a Slav. Slavs, Finngols, and Iberians have been humiliated on /his/ constantly. You don't need to insult them further.
Short rebuttal to most of these comments here:1. The predominant clades of J2b and E1b among the Slavs are absent among the Albanians, who have their own, Albanian-specific clade of E1b that underwent a demographic boom during the Late Middle Ages and the Ottoman Occupation period. 2. The overall point would make sense only if South Slavs didn't have Slavic I2a and R1a as their primary Y-DNA, barring E1b. All the other non-Slavic lineages are micro-lineages of Slavicized Romans who submitted to the Slavs and became Slavic. 3. In contrast, among Greeks and Romanians, Slavic I2a and R1a form major and primary lineages. Bosch et al., Anagnostou et al., Heraclides et al., and Giacomo et al. have all demonstrated that Slavic Y-DNA consistently exceeds Slavic autosomes in mainland Greece. According to Heraclides et al., the most direct study on this matter, 20-42% of modern Greek Y-DNA is of Slavic origin. The only way for the "only 20% Slavic Y-DNA in Greece" argument to make sense is to pool the results of mainland, Aegean, and Cretan Greeks and hope nobody is smart enough to address that.>Inbefore assuming ALL R1a/I2a is SlavicIt is, check Romanian, Bulgarian, and Greek FTDNA, they're all downstream of the Proto-Slavic I2a1b-Din (renamed into I2a-Slav in November of 2024)4. Heraclides' study refers to the entire Greekophone territory, and even in his study, the Peloponnesians are 35% Slavic Y-DNA-wise, only 7% lower than Northern Greece. The only study where Thessaloniki scores sub-30% is Battaglia. It's much higher in the abovementioned studies, nearing 50%.>BulgariansBulgarians are nearing 50% in the Begona-Cruz study, which sequenced only ethnic Bulgarians; Romanians are 45-50%, depending on the study and the population sequenced (and the Romanian FTDNA).
>>17973610>>17973542>>17973507>>1797348620-42% Slavic Y-DNA all over mainland Greece.>>17973384Northern Greece, overall, is 42% Slavic Y-DNA, and the Peloponnese is 35% Slavic Y-DNA-wise. Both regions are the most Slavic-scoring in terms of Y-DNA.
Only thessalians are 30% slavic.Rest is much less and has female mediated slavic ancestry at that.
>>17973362>>17973364>>17973322>>17972753Their response is very simple: the traditionally most populous regions of Albania are 20-37% Slavic Y-DNA-wise, but also lower in Slavic autosomes. The opposite of that is Northern Albania, where approximately 5 people live, most Albanian posters are diaspora from the North whose ancestors had to migrate from Albania because it's a shithole, and their population exploded in numbers during the Ottoman Occupation in Kosovo and Macedonia, thus the false-flag impression in this image, marriage to Serb women during the Ottoman period was seen as a prestige because it proved that the Albanian was well-off enough to marry into a better-standing ethnicity, there's a reason why Albanians from Prizren and Pristina are more than 30% Slavic, and why they're better off and higher IQ than those from smaller towns and villages.
>>17973753The opposite is true. Slavic Y-DNA forms a major lineage in nearly all regions of Greece, with Thessaloniki being the only region where both Slavic Y-DNA form the primary lineages, but the author of the map chose to put E1b instead of I2a because it had a small 0.2% advantage over I2a.
>>17973759The data is from the Albanian DNA project.
>>17973761The Author of this map used all Greek FTDNA results and the results from all studies till 2016 to make this map. I1 wasn't sequenced, and the entirety of the I2 is I2a1b-Din/Slav, and the entirety of the R1a is M458, meaning that Z280 is missing, which would've increased the R1a percentage by 2-3%.I'm sorry, but the idea that the Slavs, who've conquered the largest landmass in the world and exterminated a huge number of non-Slavs along the way, provided maternally mediated admixture in the people they've conquered, is pretty much a wet dream of the defeated. Sure, there are regions where Slavic Y-DNA is slightly lower than the autosomes, but 20-25% Slavic Y-DNA is still a lot, considering there was 0% of it before the 6th and 7th centuries. At this point, you're just applying damage control; you sound like Niggers in the USA going on about "massa's" daughter, even though Massa's been taking turns with your mothers and grandmothers, for generations, whenever he wished.
>>17973747>The only way for the "only 20% Slavic Y-DNA in Greece" argument to make sense is to pool the results of mainland, Aegean, and Cretan Greeks and hope nobody is smart enough to address that.Athens, half population in the region, only had 20% Y-DNA of Slavic origin. Athens has higher 25% Slavic autosomal admixture. You were dumb enough to not notice that and hope others wouldn't be smart enough to notice.>It is, check Romanian, Bulgarian, and Greek FTDNA, they're all downstream of the Proto-Slavic I2a1b-Din (renamed into I2a-Slav in November of 2024)You check it, retard. They have some clades of I-P37 and those may be basal. R1a in particular there are plenty of basal, but also Iranic R1a subclades. So it can be safely said that not all of the I2a or R1a is Slavic in origin. Of course none of the I2b or I1 is Slavic in origin.
>>17973457>posts a random image of percentages instead of a proper graph from a studyRefuted by Begona-Cruz et al. 2012, enjoy reading.>>17973375>They are 10-20% Slavic autosomally without any SlavicNo, we're not. We have Balkan Turk DNA, they're 46% Slavic, and only 13% Turkic/East Asian N1c1. Their population migrated away from the Balkans in large, consecutive waves to Turkish Thrace and Western Anatolia, where it comprises 20-30% of the total Y-DNA. It's just that the Turkish DNA project doesn't sequence them because they're not ethnic Turks, obviously.>>17973318Slavs have conquered and colonized all those people, barring Persians (unless you consider the leftover Sarmatians in Ukraine as Persians, then even them).
>>17973782In albanians it's already been shown by the latest study that the slavs could manage to have female mediated admixture during an invasion, so common sense doesn't apply.These maps are all pretty shit and are a mix of low sample size studies + high sample size studies while those R1a and I lineages are reduced to like 10-15% in the most slavic regions.Not all studies have the same weight.
>>17973798Yeah like most greeks live in athens, the greater area has like 4 mln people out of 10 mln + all the island greeks that have basically zero slavic y-dna.Slavic are a cuck race lolAlso they got in some way huge amounts of uralic y-dna.
>>17973283There are approximately 5 Ghegs in Albania, all of them reside outside of Northern Albania because it's barren and they don't have the intelligence for civilization-building and scarcity-management.>>17973131No, the Marmara Slav, who was I2a1b-Din, was a military colonist from today's region of Thessaloniki; he also had a Slavic mtDNA, he didn't have a South Slavic, but an Early Slavic profile.>>1797310150% homogeneous Early Slavic DNA (at a minimum) plus heterogeneous, varied non-Slavic admixture, which cannot be categorized as a uniform admixture, you wouldn't apply the same argument towards Germans and Austrians, who're sub-50% in Germanic admixture, or the Swedes, who're barely above 50% in Germanic admixture.>>17973287As a Greek (who LARP as Eastern Romans), you should be aware of the fact that the Roman sources proved that the Slavs who conquered the peninsula weren't under Avar overrule. This is confirmed in proper studies and history books written by authorities on the matter, like Bacic and Obolensky. Fredegar also spoke of the Pannonian Slavs (who were Wends) as being the Slavs who were under Avar overrule, while the Slavs who conquered Greece and the peninsula are Sclavenes, Antes, and Croats and Serbs (these arrived and skull-smashed the Avars, the Croats even made them slaves in the DAI). The Slavs started attacking ERE in the 510s, while the Avars (originally Roman federates against the Slavs) turned against Rome in the 570s.
>Instead, we find the only significant (P<0.05) correlation between ancestry and material culture among the burial constructions, where we show that individuals buried in pits feature on average higher Northern European ancestry (Supplementary Fig. 60c). Is this true?
>>17973798That's because Athens is a massive melting pot of Greeks from all regions + hundreds of thousands of Albanians who identify as Greeks, and an equal number of Pontian Greeks with quite literally zero Slavic Y-DNA, dragging the percentage down.>only had 20% Y-DNA of Slavic originYou say that as if it's 20%, a fifth of Greece's biggest city's population, is a small number; it's still a large number, especially because Greece has exiled around more than 500K Slavs from Greece in the aftermath of the Balkan Wars, the Greek-Turkish War, and WW2.>You check itI did, they're exclusively Slavic, only islanders and Constantinople Greeks got the non-Slavic I2a mutation.>Of I-P37It is* a Slavic marker, because, surprise, surprise, the entirety of I-P37 is found in Slavic countries, and countries heavily affected by the expansion of Slavic Y-DNA, like Greece, Romania, Moldova, and Hungary.>basalNo such thing today.>but also Iranic R1a subcladesThe only people with Z93 in Greece (Greek Thrace, specifically) are Greek Turks.>So it can be safely saidIt cannot.>>17973811If Slavs were a "cuck race", then 20-42% of Greeks wouldn't have Slavic Y-DNA in the mainland, and 45-50% of Romanians wouldn't have Slavic Y-DNA.>Huge amounts of Uralic Y-DNAOnly Northeastern Russians have above-15% N1c1.>>17973805>Not all studies have the same weight.The vast majority of studies done in the Greeks confirmed a dominance of Y-DNA compared to autDNA, just because they prove that the Slavic Y-DNA admixture is large doesn't make them shit.>Are reduced to like 10-15% in the most Slavic regionsMost Slavic regions have at least one Slavic Y-DNA as a primary lineage, which disproves that argument.
>>17973868Sorry but if Athens is a massive melting pot of greeks (true) and they have female mediated slavic dna... Doesn't that mean that Greeks have slavic female mediated dna on average? Like do you realize what you are arguing for you idiot? You are using low population undersampled regions vs the biggest metropolitan area of greece with more than 50% the population of balkan greece. Give it a rest. Albanians and greeks have female mediated slavic dna.
>>17973872If they had "female-mediated Slavic DNA", then there'd be no 20% of Slavic Y-DNA there; the majority of Greek immigrants in Athens are from traditionally low-Slavic-scoring regions like the Aegeans, Crete, the Pontus, the Mani peninsula, and Tsakonia, they're the reason why Athens' results are the exception to the abovementioned rule.> have Slavic female-mediated DNA on averageNo, it doesn't, because we have DNA studies, and the Greek FTDNA project proving the opposite, 20-42% of Slavic Y-DNA all over the mainland, and Y-DNA exceeding the autosomes in all regions but the city of Athens - mutt HQ, mind you, is a nation-wide result.>Do you realize what you are arguing for For factual results presented in the near entirety of Y-DNA studies done on the Greeks (barring one), and the Greek FTDNA.>Albanians and GreeksAlbanians are like that only in the sparsely inhabited North and in Kosovo, the former being the progenitor territory of the latter, which underwent a population explosion during Ottoman occupation. Greeks, on the other hand, are like that only in Athens, and barely, and for the abovementioned, modern reasons, not historical.You're here, coping and seething just because you hate the fact that Slavs conquered half of the ERE, and did a massive number on the Greeks and other Romans who were their targets. Word of advice, nobody cares about Fallmerayer outside Greece; it's a self-imposed complex of inferiority.
>>17973892Again, retarded amalgamations of studies with low sample size and low population vs the largest metropolitan area with 50+% percentage of balkan greeks in greece having on average female mediated slavic dna.Add the island that have basically no slavic y-dna or autosomal and you have a greece that has great continuity since mycenaean times.Cope and SEETHE.
>>17973908Claiming that something is "retarded" because it caregotically "shits" on your argument, an argument which is refuted by the near-entirety of all available data on the matter, mind you, is the definition of being wrong and knowing it (but not admitting, because you're not man enough), and desperation.>Largest metropolitan area with 50+% percentage Sequenced in the same manner (low sample size) as the cities and towns that you're dismissing because of the methodology applied in the studies (even though such a methodology is mainstream in population genetic studies)>Add the The Aegeans and Crete, on their own, form a negligible part of Greece's population, and even when combined, they're still negligible. You're grasping at straws, pretty badly, if I may add.>having on average female-mediated Slavic DNAThey don't, Atheniggas are 20% Slavic Y-DNA-wise. Your argument would make sense if the results were twice as big as the autosomes, instead of a pitiful 5%.>Cope and SEETHE.Read your comments, you're the one coping and seething like a scorned woman. How does it feel to lose an argument to a Turk, swimming lesson 2.0??
>>17973892Pardon me, I checked the data again, it's not 20% in Athens, but 22%, making the situation slightly worse for your argument.>>17973872
>>17973919It's retarded because these small regions are not representative. They are secluded communities of inbred people.In Italy that is more densely populated with a lot of small cities with 200-300k citizens all over the peninsula it's very obvious for example that germanic ancestry is female mediated outside of western sicily.In Greece, all the aggregates of y-dna that are weighted for population by region show female mediated admixture, because Athens is where most greeks live and they have female mediated admixture.Capiche?
>>17973924No, they're "retarded" because they refute your "argument"; you're just lying to yourself about the reason why. Besides, Northern Greece and the Peloponnese, both demographically large, are 42% and 35% Slavic in Y-DNA-wise, but lower in Slavic autosomes, the opposite of small and inbred.>CapicheDo you understand how laughable your argument is? 22% Slavic Y-DNA, on 25% Slavic autosomes, tells us only that the modern demographic trends towards Athens were shifted towards groups that had notably lower Slavic admixture than the Athenian average, which automatically refutes your point.> Those that are weighted for population by region show female-mediated admixtureThey proved the opposite, which is why you're desperately focusing on Athens, even though technically, Athens isn't the exception either, since 22% Slavic Y-DNA compared to 25% Slavic autosomes is an unimportant shift in ratios (but very important to Greeks pretending to be continuous with Bronze Age Greeks, and DEFINITELY not the Slav's quarry).
>>17973935Your arguments make no sense, you keep citing this stupid map as if it is a peer reviewed study. A random nigger took its time to make that map cherrypicking shit.This is not scientific consensus which instead SHOWS albanians, greeks and probably bulgarians having female mediated slavic dna.You can keep coping how you want here with your homemade infographs but science doesn't agree.
>>17973940>scientific consensus SHOWS albanians, greeks and probably bulgarians having female mediated slavic dna.May we see it?
>>17973940I'm not merely citing the map (which, unlike your argument, is based on proper studies and the Greek FTDNA), I'm literally citing the abovementioned studies, too (Heraclides, Bosch, Giacomo, and Anagnostou et al.) Feigning ignorance on the matter, even though I specified my sources above, is retarded and shameless, so no, none of what I've used are "homemade graphs (based strictly on studies and the Greek FTDNA)", but genetic facts.>scientific consensus, which instead SHOWSThe scientific consensus shows that it's paternally mediated, you're just lying to yourself because you can't stand the fact that Slavs, instead of fucking Greek men, as God ordained, fucked Greek women to create this situation.>But science doesn't agree"Science"? Don't use the term "science" when you don't even know the actual name of the "science" in question that addresses these matters.From one shitskin to another, you're just lying to yourself because your national pride relies on brainwashing and delusions of grandeur.
>>17973950These studies do not say what you think they do, as usual.The life of people like you is citing random shit that you don't understand, then getting disproven years later by more comprehensive studies and going "ummm sotadic zone? We have higher gdp per capita bro".This is the entirety of genetic discussion on the internet.
>>17973955>Final deed of the vanquished shitskin is to gaslight the winnerEven in 2016, before the discovery of the vast majority of I2a1b-Din and R1a's archaeogenetic findings (and Din's TRMCA)>>17973751, the vast majority of geneticists were aware of the fact that I2a and R1a are Eastern European, Slavic uniparentals. Giacomo et al. is from 2003, Bosch et al. is from 2006, Anagnostou et al. is from 2011, and Heraclides et al. is from 2016, all got identical results, and the idea that newer studies are gonna get "disproved" is LAUGHABLE, considering the confirmed progression, we're just gonna get more confirmation of the Slavic Y-DNA in Greece.
>>17973967Wanna bet?It's gonna end up like albania with proper sample sizes. You know this.Just like southern italy was "half levantine mother half roman father" turns out it's the opposite if anything.
>>1797250780% slavic ancestry in croatia and bosnia, around 65% in serbia, 50% in bulgaria
>>17973060You're brown
>>17973970>Wanna betCategorically so.>Like Albania with proper sample sizesDid you check the image I posted for Albania, data from the Albanian DNA project, no less >>17973763? Their results are extremely regionalized and heterogeneous, and when accurately modeled, Albanians will not score above 25% in Slavic admixture on average.
>>17973977We'll see each other in about 1 year when you will be spamming "umm sotadic zone unwholesome 100 hundred I am right?".Unfortunately you are an anon, but in your heart you will know I was right.Regardless of your handmade "heterogenous" sample sizes of the dumbfuck tribe of three inbred people vs largest metropolitan areas, all not weighted for population size. The latest study on albania has written, black on white that they have continuity with roman era balkans, especially more paternally.
>>17973985Facts aren't "handmade sample sizes", and Rrenjet is the biggest repository of Albanian DNA in the world; they know better than mainstream studies when it comes to Albanian uniparentals.>largest metropolitan areasThessaloniki, the second-largest city in Greece, is 42.5% Slavic Y-DNA-wise (nearly 10% more than in autosomes).>That they have continuityHaving "a continuity" isn't the same as having full continuity; that full continuity was undone by a double-digit Slavic uniparental and autosomal admixture.>About one yearAnd what will happen in about a year?
>>17973998Some more comprehensive study will come out and you will cope for a while about it on /his/ with dubious non peer reviewed data and trying to conflate different clades as not being really from the balkans as you people always do, then you will accept the truth and going back to sotadic zone posting.
>>17973401NE Italians have less than 10% R1a+I2.
>>17974002All the information I posted is from peer-reviewed studies; again, they were cited by the lead author's name and year of publishing.>Some more comprehensive study will come out Hope dies last, home(o)boy.
>>17974019For albania it is exactly what happened lol, so no hope, more like certainty.You are coping by saying that a random study was "dish0nest" by using northern albanian samples while you use aggregates you found in forums made by anons.I know which is more likely to be honest, i.e the people that are getting paid to study this shit and not schizo anons on 4chan.
>>17973798Athens has 25% Slavic ydna according to the study, 16.3% r1a and 6.5% i2a 99% of the r1a and i2a clades in the Balkan region are Slavic
>>17974007Look at the study 9 something percent r1a and i2a
>>17973974He was right, he won
>>17974024>It is exactly what happenedOnly in Northern Albania, as Rrenjet's data proves.>By using northern Albanian samples whileI didn't even know they only used them, which makes their case even weaker since they're a mere fraction of the Albanian population.>While you use aggregatesI used studies and graphs made by DNA forum contributors who used all Y-DNA studies about the Greeks, and FTDNA results till 2016 to make the said graph. It's not made-up, it's based strictly on factual information.>I knowYou went from outright lying the whole thread to hoping for a one-of-a-kind reversal of the well-established facts. Calling me schizophrenic, while you're spouting head canon about an EXACT science, because the results are too much for your deranged mind to bear, is ironic.
>>17974036They didn't use them, that's your cope.Your results aren't exact, you are citing studies that you probably haven't even read because some other guy cited them in a map you downloaded.How I know it? R1a and I are not divided in clades. I especially is literally an european hunter gatherer haplogroup, literally every single population with any sort of european hunter gatherer ancestry could've had them.Yet you keep saying it 99% slavic with no citation. Because you are lying, you want to win the convo, but there is literally no point, because peer reviewed study will come out, take in account the exact facts I presented and say "hmm, yes there is disproportionate paternal continuinity than autosomal in the balkans".
>>17974048
>>17972660>anatolian+some balkanSo ancient Greek.
>>17974048>Yet you keep saying it is 99% Slavic with no citationGreek FTDNA results confirmed it, as posted above.>>17973868>Yes, there is disproportionate paternal continuity than autosomal in the BalkansYou didn't post facts, you posted cope and seethe because you cannot refute the fact that 99% of all I2a in Southeastern Europe and mainland Greece is downstream of the Proto-Slavic Y3120.>How I know it?In the studies, the clades in question are I2a1b-Din and R1a-M458, but it's true that Z280 is missing, though, which will only increase the Slavic admixture.> probably haven't even read This comes from the same person who posted random numbers, thinking they're a rebuttal to my factual percentages.
>>17974048>They didn't use them, that's your cope.They did, the person who made the combined graph and map, Passa, said so himself.
>>17974072Do you think this makes your point?Both R1a and I are of unspecified clades.Even admitting all the R1a is slavic, there is literally more I-M170 in SARDINIA than in eastern euros.Early slavs were much more R1a than I.Unless you think a special groups of slavic with little R1a and all migrated to the balkans and left their ancestral homeland, you are delusional.You shitted the thread for 150 replies for this shit? Crazy.You were so sure too.The total slavic y-dna is probably better explained by R1a + 3/4% of I which is only a y-dna clade for slavs, meaning around 10-15%.slavic ancestry is mostly female mediated.
>>17974048i think he's right, here >>17973396 all the i2a is i2a1b (not specifically stated but if it doesn't full under i2a1a it's likely i2a1b)>>17974072ahahahah, continental greeks are almost as j2b as they are j2a, in nioannina, agrinon, kardhista and thessaloniki j2b is more common than j2a, almost all the non slavic haplogroups in greece are balkan, greeks are the descendants of south slavs
>>17974048The map has already been posted, but it's from the same, exact study as this image >>17973751, Heraclides et al. 2016.Slavs >> Greeks, sorry.
>>17974076no, not greek at all
>>17974091Cope.
>>17974097greeks being between a balkan anatolian IA continuum doesn't mean that if you mix a balkan and anatolian you get a greek, you get something similar to an ancient greek, but as the different haplogroups show it's only superficial similarity
>>17974084>Unspecified cladesIt's specified in the Greek FTDNA image, which you keep ignoring because it disproves your "argument", and in Heraclides et al., the authors outright state that the I2a among mainland Greeks is of Eastern European/Slavic origin.>Early Slavs were much more R1a than INot according to the majority of archaeogenetic findings, which are mostly I2a1b-Din.>There is literally more I-M170 in SARDINIANot the same mutation and clade, the one among Slavs, Albanians, Greeks, Romanians, Hungarians, the Gagauz, and the Moldovans is the Proto-Slavic Y3120.>You shitted the threadThe ones "shitting" up the thread are shitskins who can't accept the fact they were defeated and raped by the Slavs.>You were so sureBecause I'm posting facts.> is probably better explainedDamage control at the sight of irrefutable Slavic Y-DNA primacy, instead of admitting facts and moving on, is very pathetic behavior.>Slavic ancestry is mostly female-mediated.The near-entirety of DNA studies conducted on the Greeks proved the OPPOSITE.>Special group of SlavsI2a1b-Din's TMRCA is set in Belarus during the Proto-Slavic Zarubintsy period; all the archaeogenetic findings are early and Medieval Slavs, and the highest diversity of clades is found in the Proto-Slavic triangle of Belarus, Poland, and Ukraine, and is wholly absent among ancient non-Slavic sites.
>>17974102Mycenaeans were literally majority J2 lmao
>>17974105Show me ONE sample size with at least 20 early slavs that is SO LOW in percentage in R1a compared to I2. I'm waiting. It doesn't exist.
>>17974102Irrelevant, 40-70% Greek genetics date back to ancient Greek societies. Only Slavic and Albanian admixtures are foreign.
>>17974105This is only R1a. Where is I?R1a as your own image shows is literally less than 10%.Fucking slavic cuck shitted up the thread FOR 200 replies.
>>17974112Bro why are you so obsessed with cuckoldry, are you gay?
>>17974106j2a, not j2b, modern greeks are like 20% J2 with almost half of this being j2b, and the j2a in modern greece is likely at least partially from later anatolian migrations, actual mycenean j2a in greece could be below 10%
>>17974111you're forgetting the balkan and anatolian ancestries, BA greek ancestry in greece is likely 10 to 20%>>17974108that's irrelevant, the group of slavs that migrated to the balkans carried more I2a1b or it was a local founder effect, see here >>17973396 all greek i2a is i2a1b like bosnia
>>17974112Here it is, it's another repost because you're a demonstratively low-IQ shitskin retard who can't scroll up.>R1a as your own image showsR1a Greeks are undersampled in the Greek FTDNA, but that's not the point of the image; the point is that the clades are fully Slavic. Meanwhile, you ignore the Greek averages posted in the images from the studies I've cited above. The fact of the matter is that in mainland Greece and Crete, Slavic Y-DNA forms primary lineages, and both R1a and I2a are irrefutably major paternal lineages in mainland Greece.
>>17974121AHAHAHAH what a cope.Literally so easy to dismantle your retarded shit.Show me a citation of that. You literally can't, because you are making stuff up as you go, uralic rapebaby.
>>17974125>R1a greeks are undersampledWe are in full cope mode.Slavs are vast majority R1a to this day, they were in the past also. It's like me trying to track spanish y-dna using J2 instead of R1b-DF27, it just doesn't make sense.Slavic y-dna in greece is tops 15% which shows slight female mediation in admixture. Like in albanians and bulgarians, and the southern balkans in general. I have nothing more to add.
>>17974108>I'm waitingNo need to wait anymore, read some studies before you run your retarded mouth.The fact of the matter is, there are around 20 or so more I2a archaogenetic Slavic findings than those who are R1a in total.
>>17974128This doesn't address anything of what I wrote, you're using a secondary haplogroup that is more present in the balkans itself than in slavic land to track slavic migration. Literally retard tier.Like me claiming greeks have J2 because of spaniards, completely nonsensical.
>>17972492You didn't need genetic research to fucking know about Slavic intrusion into Byzantine lands. You fucking retards, we know this from chronicles already. This entire thread is some unhealthy mentally ill cope of perma online virgin losers.
>>17974126you're just coping, all the i2a in greece is i2a1b, this is always evident when the various clades are separated,
>>17974131spaniards don't have the same clades of j2, so that would make no sense, balkan slavs have slavic clades of i2a almost exclusively
>>17974134what an idiot you are, "later homo" here doesn't mean "later homosexual", what an idiot
>>17974127You're the one who is in cope-mode, ignoring the very studies you've claimed I've never read, which provided systematic rebuttals to your "arguments". > it just doesn't make sense>Tracking Slavic Y-DNA with confirmed Slavic Proto-Slavic Y-DNA doesn't make sense to the Greek faggot denying systematically proved facts of a huge intrusion of Slavic I2a and R1a into the Greek gene pool>We are in full cope mode>Copes for the entire duration of the argument>writes this, without any self-awareness, Greek FTDNA moderators have stated this, not me.>Slavic Y-dna in Greece is20-42%, depending on the region, based on Bosch et al, Heraclides et al, Anagnostou et al, and Giacomo et al.>I have nothing more to addThat's the only smart thing you've said in this thread. You should've begun and ended the discussion with this.>Slavs are vast majority R1a to this dayWhich is wholly irrelevant because I2a1b-Din is the second most common Y-DNA among Belarusians, Ukrainians, Russians, Southeastern Poles, Slovaks, and northwestern Czechs (including Prague). In Polesie, the percentage exceeds 40%. You keep moving goalposts, and still you get demolished. No wonder your ancestors were steamrolled by the Slavs.
>>17974131Because it's a Proto-Slavic haplogroup, you abominable retard, its Proto-Slavic origin is quite literally confirmed, and this has been mainstream knowledge since 2017, when Maria Utevska's study and the discovery of the TMRCA in Belarus refuted all arguments about the "native Balkan origin".>Is more presentBecause the Slavs who conquered the Balkans were more I2a1b-Din than R1a, and because I2a1b-Din had better reproductive success in the Balkans. The diversity of clades is the lowest in the Balkans (final destination of the migration) but the highest in the Proto-Slavic triangle (Belarus, Poland, and the Ukraine - landmass of origin). Go find A SINGLE non-Slavic I2a1b-Din finding, and I'll forfeit the argument.>AnythingIt doesn't just disprove it, it shits profusely all over your argument.
>>17974131>in Slavic landsBut the Balkans ARE* Slavic lands :)))
>>17974145Lol"Greek FTDNA moderators" one of the best appeal to authorities I have ever seen.I have researched a bit.I2a1b-Din is not the only I clade and is around 9% of total y-dna for greeks, there is a other clades, not even remotely associated with slavs.Which with R1a reach 18% on average in greece.The average greek is around 20-25% slavic autosomally, which means slightly female mediated admixture, much like in Athens, so the original anon was correct.Still it's strange than the early slavs that were in the balkans had 50-50 basically R1a-I.I think I is frankly oversampled.
>183 repliesSome anon posted that haploautist threads are the wosrt, most schizophrenic shit that can ever be seen on this board. I can see now. It's absolutely unhinged.
This thread is literally just Anatolian rapebaby cope lmao
>>17974167This one is particularly bad because it's to do with balkan nationalism.
>>17974167It's because all data on the field is partial so they're arguing over studies with like 200 people, so the numbers vary wildly from study to study and everyone brings the numbers they like the most
>>17973827Slavs didn’t conquer the balkans. The earliest Slav appearance were all raids and that’s it: only after Justinian the Illyrian and demographic change brought about by black plague after 570 ad did things change and it was entirely because of the avars causing havoc and settling Slavs everywhere in the balkans. They did that not Slavs themselves. The Slavs were literal dumb peons incapable of waging effective war without Turkish command. This is how we Albanians were reduced but we still kept our majority Balkanite genes up in the mountains.
>>17973759Most Albanians are geg Albanians which are at best 10% paternally Slav and 25% autosmally Slav. That’s because we fucked your women and assimilated Slav males which we should have not done.
>>17973609Albanian identity isn’t recent. Albanians have had a genetic continuity, linguistic continuity and cultural continuity for a thousand years at least and genetics clearly points towards Albanians surviving in the mountains and then expanding massively around the 12-13th century.
>>17974184Albanoid shitskin cope
>>17974189Jealous Slavic shitskin. You’re on our land boy and you’ll be skinned alive when the time comes.
>>17974166>says he researched it a bit>proceeds to give the worst take in the entire thread, even worse than that of the Greek retard defending his caved-in nationI2a1b-Din comprises 99% of all mainland Greek I2 lineages, which is known thanks to studies and the Greek FTDNA. It's one of two major lineages in 4 mainland Greek regions, whereas R1a is a major lineage in 5 regions (4 in the mainland, and one in Crete).>>17973761, and the only way for I2a1b-Din and R1a to comprise sub-20% of modern Greek Y-DNA, is if one pools all Greek results together into one national average, the mainland Greeks with huge Slavic admixture, and the Aegeans and Cretans with negligible-to-minor admixture, there's a reason why mainland, Aegean, Cypriot, Pontian, and Cretan Greeks are studied as separate categories.>So the original anon was correctNot according to the abovementioned DNA studies and the Greek FTDNA, the sole exception is Athens, and that's a 3% difference between Y-DNA and autosomes.>>17974170The opposite is true; the numbers provided in the studies I've cited are more or less identical, and none of the authors are biased, especially not Heraclides and Anagnostou, who, while being Greek, didn't doctor their results regarding I2a and R1a.
>>17974193Citation on mainland greek being 99% that clade of I? It didn't seem from the data I saw.
>>17974180All of the Roman primary sources, and authorities on this period of history, like Bacic, Obolensky, Dvornik, etc, attest to the fact that the Slavs have conquered Southeastern Europe, and have arrived as invading conquerors.>Turkish commandWhich Turkish command is that? Avars were originally Slavic enemies and Roman federates. Their purpose was to stop the Slavs, and like the Romans, they failed at doing so. Only modern-day retards, against all primary sources, like Walter Pohl, claim that the Avars instigated the Slavic invasion and conquest. It's a Germanic cope because the Huns raped them and made them their vassals. I think you're just projecting because it was we who were settling you in Kosovo and Macedonia as our loyal Muslim thugs against the Serbs and Bulgarians there.>PlagueDidn't affect the interior of the peninsula, only the Dalmatian coast, the Anatolian heartlands, and what is today's Turkish Thrace.>The IllyrianNot even remotely, and you're not Illyrian either, but Eastern Balkan Roman mutts, refugees of the Slavic invasion forming into a post-SP identity in the mid-to-late 900s.>>17974184I'm Turkish, my little Turko-Albanian pet, and your point would make sense if you were a large demographic, and not five monkeys selling drugs and organs in Albania's north. Apart from that, South Slavs, including the Serbs whom you hate because they're superior to you, share only 7 out of 22 mtDNA lineages with other Slavs, meaning they took centuries-spanning turns with your women, and you did nothing about it.>>17974191>Jealous of people whose only identity is Islam>wants to create a Muslim Vatican in Tirana to suck our dicks even betterThere's no such thing as your land because you don't exist without us and the Americans.
>>17974201Check the Greek FTDNA tablet for I2a lineages in Greece. They're 99% downstream of I2a-Din Y3120/ I've even posted the screenshot twice.
Turkish DNA project in the house.
>>17974218I keep forgetting how infinitely better managed our DNA project is compared to "based, philosophical Greeks", creators of civilization and shit, turns out there's a reason we ass-raped them for some 400 years.
>>17974214I meant studies.
>>17974225you are more insecure about it and have bigger incentive
>>17974226Heraclides and Anagnostou specified that the I2a lineage is I-M423 (I2a1b).>>17974227Is that so? Even though I'm N1c1 myself? And yes, I'm aware that on a national level, we barely get 7.2% East Asian/Turkic lineages combined, there's only a peak in Central Anatolia (and it's just 15-16%). What now?
>>17974207Sorry shitskin but Roman primary sources clearly show Slavs as a squabble of raiders that always got BTFO. Only after the collapse of the gepids in 568 and supremacy of avars did Slav begin to settle you dumb fuck shitskin t.urk. All your Slav sources are BTFO by Curta. Slavs only ever became a problem because of their Avar masters using them as their slave soldiers and farmers. No amount of cope will ever change this fact.>plague didn’t infect the interiorIt sure did because you have no source to back that up and it’s clear that it induced replacement>Albanians came from east balkansThis is the new Serb cope so you’re a serbshitskin. Albanians have western Balkan defined ancient haplogroups J2b-l283, R1b-z2108 and PF7576 all found in Illyrian and Mycenaean genetic samples. E-V13 also found as late as copper age Croatia and Hungary. You are indeed jealous that we are the only native population left and history destroys your fake historical revisionism Slav fag.>slavs took turns with your womenExcept autosomal dna of slavshits is 2.5 times greater than paternal which means more than 2 times as man Slavshit maternal lineage than paternal. BTFO SERB TURK MUTT GO HOME
Find something that interests you as much as Balkans fighting over genetic purity.
>>17974245Curta is the most refuted and opposed historian-turned-archaeologist (or was it vice versa) in current academia; it figures that our mini-Turks are fond of him because he, just like them, has a rich imagination and lack of self-awareness.>No amount of coping will ever change this factBut my mini-Turk, you're the one coping in hopes of changing facts. There's not a single Roman source that confirms this. What it does, confirm, however, is that the Slavs were winning badly to the point where the Romans had to weaponize the Avars against them (which failed), when the Romans launched a counter-offensive during Pseudo-Maurice, which also failed, barring one or two victories of the Romans, the Slavs were running a train on them.>Avar masters using them as their slave soldiers and farmersAgain, you're just projecting your own subjugation by us onto them through an earlier "Turkish" proxy (check image)>And it’s clear that it induced replacementNot a single Roman source states that their invasion was induced by the plague.>This is the new Serb copeThis has been known since Georgiev, one of the leading Albanologists, proved this decades ago, plus your E1b, your primary Y-DNA, has an upstream in Bulgaria during the Thracian period.>JealousNative Americans are also native, and people are just laughing at their pathetic existence. The same case here, you're funny people, a very high opinion of each other, because everyone else sees you as garbage.>Slavshit maternal lineageAgain, 5 Ghegs stealing massa's daughter doesn't refute the fact that the Slavs did this to you on a profoundly bigger scale, and for centuries longer.
>>17972492>31,5% in DavidskiYep, he was.
Anthrogenetics prove once you are touched by slavic subhuman admixture there's no going back
>>17974274You’re clearly a slavshit promoting fake Slavic revisionism. Curta has never been debunked and you’re seething hard now that I mentioned him. It’s funny but you can clearly look at the historical record. Slavshits were constantly btfo’d raiders between the period of 517 to 568, literally the period of Roman resurgence. Before the Avars, the neohuns like the kuritgurs and onigurs were their masters because Slavs cannot fight by themselves. The avars were only brought in to deal with the gepids and lombards and that backfired because they took their Slavic slaves with them that rebelled when they arrived in the balkans but were easily BTFO and then afterwards the avars used them plunder the balkans around 578. >e1b is Bulgarian Thracian Show on ytree. Funny how you completely ignore Illyrian roots that are as much as E-v13 combined. Guess where the synthesis of illyrians and Thracians occurred territorially? >slavs raped usAnd yet we have more of their maternal genes, ok orc you don’t know about to even think critically which is indicative of your barbarian roots. The one thing that Turks and Slavs share in common is that you’re both squatters. Allah willing you’ll be wiped out.
>>17974191I fucked an Albanian women who had blue eyes and blond hair, clearly descended from slav chads who fucked brown shitskin whores and bleached them out. You won’t do shit while we fuck your women.
>>17974295extremely brown hands type this
>>17974298Whiter than you Balkan rapebaby
>>17974295Many such cases in the Balkans.
>>17974316You’re literally a gigamutt kek we are more purer and whiter than you.
>>17972610Why is that surprising? The Greeks were and ruled in the Middle East, they never were in fucking Sweden or Ireland
>>17974322Cope harder you have been raped for centuries by pure white Slav chads and subhuman turkroaches making you a mystery meat Balkan rapebaby.
>>17974330Most of our paternals are native so that’s another lie from the gaslighting Slav gypoid.And we have the highest diversity of E-V13 clades which only means we are the native farmers of the whole region plus the yamnaya settlers. Our ethnogensis is 4000 years old. Our truest homeland is Kosovo and north Macedonia and by extension everywhere else in the western balkans.
>>17974336https://www.yfull.com/tree/e-v13/
>>17974340
>>17974207You are Svetovid the Bosnian Slavic supremacist, not a Turk
>>17973782Indian nationalists use the same exact cope>no aryan invasion saar, steppe ancestry is mediated by womenReally don't get what this greek coper is trying to prove here. How do percentages differences even matter here? A third of your ancestry has been completely replaced. This is devastating no matter how you spin it. Haplos have no relevance to genetics. If greeks had 100% slavic autosomal and 100% greek haplos, they would not be greek anymore. Even if we were to entertain your cope, which has been reliably proven wrong, you're not convincing a single person itt that "only" 20% y-dna replacement is somehow a huge win for you and a loss for slavs.
terroni bros, we won, we will reclaim hellas
>>17974286>Slavic revisionismThis shit only exists in the heads of dirt farmers who survived their conquest, and now they're running their mouths because there's NATO to protect them.> Funny how you completely ignore Illyrian rootsNo such thing as an Illyrian with E1b, it's strictly non-Illyrian.>Occurred territoriallyBacktracking already, are we? Remind us, was a robbery near Ragusa the first time someone recorded the Albanian speech in the 1200s?>Slavs cannot fight>Gets conquered and ruled by them for centuriesIncredible, these "weak" people conquered half of the Eastern Roman Empire.>The Avars were only brought in to deal with the Gepids and LombardsMeanwhile: "(...) about the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)" - Menander Protector.>Like the Kuritgurs and OnughursMeanwhile: "What man has been born, what man is warmed by the rays of the sun, who shall make our might his subject? Others don't conquer our land, we conquer theirs. And so it shall always be for us, as long as there are wars and swords are forged.” - Daurentius, the supreme chieftain of the Slavs, responding to the Avars before having them killed, Menander Protector.>Have more of their maternal genesWait till this mini-Turk Albanian learns that Northern Albanians are a minority population compared to Albanians with 20-37% Slavic Y-DNA, depending on the region (and lower Slavic autosomes).>barbarian rootsThe literal audacity of Albanians calling their former masters barbarians, you running your mouth against both of your massas today, little Ademi.>share in commonIs that we raped Rome and the Albanians?
>>17972492Mycenean greek had very low to no indo european admixture while bronze age invasions brought 20-30 % admixture. Slavic admixture also was introduced at varying amounts mostly in thrace and Macedonia. But I doubt its impact at huge rates across all of greece. If you use mycenean greek as the primary population its going to estimate all the steppe ancestry as Slavic incorrectly.
>>17974286>Curta has never been debunked, and you’re seething hard now that I mentioned himCurta is the most refuted and disputed historian/archaeologist in modern academia. You're drawn to him by instinct because he has the same, exact diarrhea-type brown tinge in his skin, like the average Albanian.>Our truest homeland is Kosovo and North MacedoniaNo, just read our tax censuses from the Ottoman period, you were an extreme minority in both lands before WE brought you there, for centuries, if I may add.>>17974340>Albanians are Celtic rape-babiesAmazing, who HASN'T taken a cum-dump on our residential laughing stock of history??>>17974483You lost, horribly.>>17974460> How do percentage differences even matter hereIt's damage control on their side, and the funniest thing is that when they finally accept reality, they'll just pretend like the thing never happened and continue with their lives :)))
>>17974620The epicenters of Slavic admixture, both Y-DNA and autDNA, are Northern Greece and the Peloponnese, which fits the historical sources.
>>17974628>you lost horribly
Ah yes, the Slavic Cretans
>>17972492Here's how the Greek genepool was evolving over the millenia. The base was the virgin Anatolian Farmers. Then came the Yamnayas, who were more OP.They BTFOd the farmers and took the Farmer Stacy as wives, resulting in the increasing of their admixture content, without continuous population inflow.
>>17974721i doubt farmer women looked like stacies
>>17973827Germanic admixture has been re-evaluated and divided into two groups, continental and Nordic.Germans are 90% Continental and Scandinavians range from 60-100% Nordic.
>>17973287>>17973237These are browns seething over Greeks today being undeniably European.brown people living along the South/East Mediterranean want to claim Greeks and Romans as apart of their racial network because the alternative is Europeans DID create independent civilization which surpassed the degenerate bughives of Mesopotamia and The Levant.Solar Aryan Greek demi-god Kings ruled over an age of high culture while sand grinding shitskins were having their souls devoured by molochian fire until said Aryan Greek BVLLs completely overran Western Asia and subjugated and dominated the ancestors of the arabs, nafris, roaches, lebanogs, and post CHG-rape monstruo creaturos.It causes psychological pain in these unibrow(n) fucks when they are confronted with the simple fact people in Finland share more DNA with archaic Mycenaeans than people in Lebanon do.they post distance charts but ignore actual shared ancestors.If the Homeric figures were alive today theyd immediately fly into a Berserker rage and tear apart the average mudslime demijeet squatting in asia while embracing people as far afield as Iceland as racial and ethnic kin.
>>17972610Nope.Greeks both then and now share more of their genome with people in Finland than people in Lebanon or Palestine or even the coast of Anatolia.Greeks living 50 miles away from Anatolia share more of their genome with an Icelander thousands of miles away than they do with an ethnic Turk living on the coast of old Ionia.
>>17973280why is R1b is modern continental greece more common than J2a? weren't the greeks a bit more j2a?
>>17973811These studies dramatically increase the amount of Slavic Y-DNA, because they don't include millions of Anatolian Greeks that now inhabit Greece since 1922. The studies on Italy do the same because they also don't include millions of Southern Italians that have migrated to Central Italy and Northern Italy since 1945. >>17973798>That's because Athens is a massive melting pot of Greeks from all regions + hundreds of thousands of Albanians who identify as Greeks, and an equal number of Pontian Greeks with quite literally zero Slavic Y-DNA, dragging the percentage down.Svetovid, these populations aren't counted in the genomic studies. They aren't counting a single immigrant to Athens.>You say that as if it's 20%, a fifth of Greece's biggest city's population, is a small number;It's a small number compared to the higher Slavic autosomal admixture mediated by Slavic women.>It is* a Slavic marker, because, surprise, surprise, the entirety of I-P37 is found in Slavic countriesFalse. The basal clades of I-P37 are all in Italy and Spain. The ancient DNA samples too. That means more than half of the I2a in Greece is non-Slavic.>The only people with Z93 in Greece (Greek Thrace, specifically) are Greek Turks.No, Greeks had Iranic R1a prior to the arrival of Turkics anywhere in Greece. The Greek samples appearing with Z93 are not from Thrace.>>17973892>the majority of Greek immigrants in Athens are from traditionally low-Slavic-scoring regionsNo, these populations aren't included in genetic studies. Don't be retarded like the brown Argentinian (Bolivian mestizo) troon. The Greek_Athens population has a high level of female mediated Slavic admixture that is lower in Greek islanders and absent in Pontic Greeks. This isn't counting a single immigrant to Athens.>Greek FTDNA projectThis easily proved that half of the I2a and R1a in Greece is non-Slavic.>>17974029Shut the fuck up brown latinx retard. You've been humiliated with every post you shit out.
>>17974609>>17974628>E-V13 not IllyrianIt’s been found in copper age Croatia and is a farmer gene of illyrians. Illyrian nobility were R1b and J2b.>menander ProcterAfter 568 ad. Slavic slaves of the neohuns and avars were btfo and then sent out to pillage by their Avar masters that backstabbed the Roman’s. This is a fact. >northern AlbaniansAll geg Albanians have less than 12% slavshit paternal roots and gegs are 70% of all Albanians and gegs are 70% native in paternal. I’ve already posted proof. >The literal audacity of Albanians calling their former masters barbariansAll Turks and Slavs are barbarians. Albanians are not. >Curta is the most refutedNo he isn’t, every “refutation” has been debunked numerous times. Genetics disprove your nonsense and historical sources disprove your nonsense.>ottoman tax census, we brought you thereThe one you’re referring to in Kosovo is only half of Kosovo and only towards those that were directly the serfs of the serbshit Kang. Ragusan documents around the same time show that Albanians were a plurality in novo brdo and almost certainly everywhere else. We were a plurality because slavroaches overran our land and we progressively took it back.>Albanians are Celtic rape babiesSince when is E-V13 Celtic?You’re a retarded Slav we wuzzer and so fucked in the head because you have a confirmed N1 siberiski foreign rape father. You will never be Illyrian like us. You must go back.
>>17975144Slavshits rebelled from their Turkic masters in 577 and invaded illyricum, the Romans made peace with the avars and then both btfo’d the slavshits. Then in 578 the avars backstabbed the Romans and “100,000 thousand “ slavshits “migrated” south wards waging war. It’s obvious that they were being forced as slaves to fight for the avars.
>>17975188The Slavs under the ruler ship of the neo-huns invaded and plundered the balkans between 548-552 with help from the Germanic gepids but defeated near the walls of Constantinople. Slavs never independent invaded the balkans and were brought there by Turkic tribes - Kutrigurs, Onigurs and Avars.
>>17972932>HaploniggersI guess Black Saharans are Western European blue-eyed white-skinned Aryans
>>17975219Slavshit niggery in the balkans>518 - raided from Wallachia but defeated easily>539-540 - raided with Huns (kurtigurs) whom were their masters>545 - another hunnic led Slav raid>548-552 - series of devastating raids facilitated by gepid Germans and Huns, they invaded from Pannonian controlled gepid lands so even the Germans ruled over the slav(e)>558-559 - Huns raid again with their Slavic slaves>568 - avars raid the Balkans with their Slavic slaves>577 - Slavic slaves rebel but were defeated by their Avar lords and Roman’s>578 - Avars raid>581-593 - great series of Avar led raids with their Slavic slaves, they were defeated and sent back to Wallachia>597 - brief Avar raid>604 - brief Slav rebellion in thessonaliki, they were settled and enslaved by the Byzantine’s, probably all exterminated >612-628 - Slavic slaves raid for their masters, beg for help from avars and avars, Slavs and Persians are defeated eventually defeated by 628>knucklehead Heraculius invited the Croats around 630 and later the Serbs in 630-640 to settle some land in Dalmatia and Bosnia >640- avars capture most the balkans and settle it with SlavsOnce again Slavs only exist in the balkans thanks to their Turkic masters being lucky.
>>17975425I suppose Heraculius had no choice since most of the native balkanites were wiped out by disease and war and Slavs probably had higher immunity to black plague compared to cleaner natives that had no immunity. The Slavs that were enslaved and settled in Anatolia constantly supported muslim invaders. If you factor out Persians and Arab muslims then Slavs would have been essentially wiped out. Too bad history ended up like this.
>>17974278Give it a rest mate.
>>17975144Svetovid, the person you're responding to, is in fact Serbian. He is somewhat knowledgeable on this subject but biased. For instance, he is unhappy about the fact that Serbs are as Slavic as Vlachs and Gagauz Turks, and himself tried to portray other Slavs as racially mixed when they are relatively pure unlike Serbs and other Balkan Slavs.He is a completely different person from the brown 80 IQ latinx mestizo troon >>17972609 >>17972672 >>17972681 that is actually mentally challenged and a liar.
>>17973025>>17973042There are no I1 morons in the Balkans, all I that exist in the Balkans are I2 din.
>>17975587>There are no I1 morons in the BalkansEvery DNA study shows presence of Germanic I1 in the Balkans, stronger in the north.>all I that exist in the Balkans are I2 dinNo, there's also I2a subclades of Mediterranean origin and I2b which are unrelated to Slavic I2a1b-Din.
>>17975560>Stop posting stuff I don't like, because it offends me.
>>17976137Not offended nigga, what do you take me for come on. You're reinventing outdated wheels. Senegalese aeronautics.
>all those butthurt gypsies in the beginning of the threadThe study literally says there was NO sex bias in Slavic admixture. It contrasts with Germanic and Levantine ancestry in the Balkans though, both being male-mediated. Also, comparing the amounts of auDNA and Y-DNA is not how you measure sex bias, it's measured by comparing auDNA and X-chromosome.
>>17975425imagine being this raped to seethe for hours like this in one threadyup, i am thinking slavs won
>>17974295Assuming this is a real story, how hard was it? I just googled and it says Albanians are Muslims. Also was she tall? Having sex with a Balkan giantess is hot as fuck, pretty much the only sort of women besides pajeetas I'd be genuinely interested in having sex with.
>>17974784Mental illness.
>>17973346>>17973798>Iranicno such word exists. That's Iranian.Turkish/Turkic classification makes sense, because the ethnic Turkish and the ethnic Turkic are the different stuffs.The ethnic Iranians and the ethnic ""Iranics"" are the same thing on the other hand.>B... but, Iranians in Islamic republic of Iran are only a part of the IranicsThey have never made up an ethnicity "Iranian" to distinguish Iranians inside and outside of historical Persia.Sogdians, Khwarazmians, and Scythians are all Iranians.
>>17972492jewvisky says what? disregard
>>17972507>>17972492I currently live in Serbia and serbs are swarthy af, also 90% of them have a beak nose.Can't imagine how swarthy were the locals in roman times
>>17976875it's kinda funny, despite being 60% slavic serbs look like tall italians
>>17976923Also they aren't that tall from what I see (Belgrade + Novi-Sad), no difference from Moscow, avg height is somewhere between 5'10 and 5'11.
>>17973237Putin comes from some village near Petersburg.He's probably 70% finnish.
>>17973976holy shit that's the most yamnay-looking man alive (probably not more alive tho, who knows).
