First of all, many purely academic books and free from any neopagan confirmation bias, are difficult to find. There are some books I had the displeasure of reading that seemed more like a "bad Christianity" manifesto than anything else. I Just want to read some mythological informations..The related photo was recommended to me, so I downloaded it and read it. The author's conclusions are basically clear that the original 'religion' of the Balts was more akin to animism and shamanism. No more, no less.And then it says, that What we do have in regard to records and source material available today is "unfortunately a longstanding Christian-corrupted evolution", or, an evolution in attempt to counter Christian incursions.therefore not very relevant.I assume this book is more academic than others, and the author commented on something that is sometimes not well remembered, that reducing everything to "Baltic religion", "Slavic religion", "Celtic religion" is a mistake, since there was no organized belief system and as they were divided into tribes, each place had its own rites and beliefs.but could anyone recommend serious, academic sources? I would appreciate it
>>17972954I don't know about Baltic mythology, but this guy's book *Strange Christianities* is terrible. I read it in college, and even though I'm not Christian, the book is full of problems for someone who doesn't know this faith. OP, why are you so impressed? The Balts weren't literate, and not much was recorded
>>17972954>sigh..Let me draw a picture for those who don't understand:We know *nothing* about Baltic-Slavic or "Celtic" paganism. Period. We have vague and banal information written centuries ago that doesn't attest to rites or articles of faith, just empty descriptions. These books are all fables that people write whatever they want. Grow the fuck up, you tards
There are definitely better books by Francis Young.Anyways, I strongly recommend The Power of Song: Nonviolent National Culture in the Baltic Singing Revolution by Guntis Smidchens.
>>17972954I studied and read some books by Herodotus and I can say that snakes were definitely very present in their mythology, even at a level of veneration for fear of these animals killing their livestock. There is also some kind of persistence of wolves and werewolves in their mythology, but there is not much value in their comparative mythology>>17972969No need to exaggerate, right? We even know something good about Celtic mythology, especially Irish, thanks to medieval syncretism. The problem with the Balts is that they were quite isolated.
>>17972980I appreciate your recommendation, thank you.>>17972969Was it necessary to disrespect people? Control yourself, and I don't deny mythological studies, I just noticed that there are many booklets, i love IE mythology, don't get me wrong>>17972985Yes, I assume it's not a coincidence. I've read a lot of works about correlation with snakes and the big bad wolf.
>>17972980Shitty author, btw >>17972954Lithuanian anon here, my own interpretation of Baltic and Slavic mythology is that the two are very similar, except for regional variations (certainly in the case of Little Russia/Belarus; it was an ancestral Baltic/Balto-Slavic land). I see references to Velnias and Veles as indistinguishable from one another.
>>17973002>>17972985Balts and Slavs were irrelevant little taiga globlins with a mythology more similar to African religions, they literally had a flying wolf god because they were so cowardly to kill these pests and, believe it or not... they gave cow's milk to snakes in fear of them hahahaha pathetic too much if you see a taiga shaman, he's the most Aryan you can get, they kill each other
>>17973007Goblins*
>>17973007No. The Baltic gods had no physical form and were understood more as energies or concepts than living beings. This is animism and shamanism in practice. Vargs is not wrong about this. The Greco-Roman pantheon of his people is really very Greco-Roman and very non-IE.
>>17972954>First of all, many purely academic books and free from any neopagan confirmation bias, are difficult to find.Then you're in the wrong place. Until a few years ago, the so-called "IE" community was hijacked by neopagans, and there are even books by neopagan authors circulating around, like "The One-Eyed God."
>>17973007>they literally had a flying wolf god because they were so cowardly to kill these pests and, believe it or not... they gave cow's milk to snakes in fear of them Wtf for real?!
>>17973227Not that poster but there was apparently an Indo-European milk drinking snake myth or superstition. In the Indo-Balto-Slavic branch this manifested as offering snakes milk. Hindus still do it. In the Celtic branch in both Iberia and Ireland snakes were said to steal milk and held responsible when cows stopped giving milk. It might have something to do with snakes on the steppe biting livestock and making them ill or something.
>>17973246This is very superstitious and retard, even for a pagan standard with all due respect. Like... I raised snakes with my father, they barely drank water, let alone "milk". One even got sick from supposedly ingesting blood from a sick rat or something and died.
>>17973767ts even worst superstition is a nickname, as I said, it was more similar to what you would see from a Yoruba tribe than a Greco-Roman civilizer
>>17972969He's right. It's all false and largely made up; each isolated tribe had its own religion.Characterizing the Europeans who adopted Christianity late as "pagans" isn't particularly helpful. There was no single "paganism" that preceded the arrival of Christianity in these societies, and their religious traditions were very diverse. Although these societies resisted the adoption of Christianity, sometimes for centuries, that doesn't mean they didn't interact with it. Relentless missionary activity resulted in the cultural oblivion of many of these peoples' original pre-Christian religious traditions. The result was that these peoples found themselves in a "religious no man's land," where they were simultaneously isolated from their own traditions and ignorant of Christianity. This led to the development of "creole religions."
>>17973807Yes, just like the Yoruba kek
>>17973777It's no different from Greco-Roman superstition, what's your point, genius?>>17973807but everyone still followed the same belief system with shared myths, perhaps the way rites and each had their favorite patron god and holidays like in the Greek polis, yes, but to say that there was no kind of "paganism" is an exaggeration
>>17973246>In the Celtic branch in both Iberia and Ireland snakes were said to steal milk and held responsible when cows stopped giving milkhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatzelwurm
>>17973835He's crying, but I don't know, I think Baltic paganism is more primitive than the others, apparently because it's purely animistic and shamanistic like the Jack Chans of the Steppe
So far no one is talking about mythology and just shitting on the Baltics. Show sources, malicious people. Follow the thread.
>>17972985>There is also some kind of persistence of wolves and werewolves in their mythologyCorrect >>17973007Bizarre reductionism. The snake issue can be better explained as a myth in itself. We're talking about societies that believed in magic. You can't analyze things through the eyes of 2025. You seem to elevate the Hellenistics quite a bit, but what about satyrs? They are spiritually "wild" beings of nature with the appearance of a man with goat legs, horns, and ears. Have you ever researched how the Greeks treated them both inside and outside their myths? Or the issue of the "evil eye," so prevalent in the Greek world that they even used amulets of it for everything?And your other posts are incorrect. They had personal gods; they weren't just "concepts" or "energies" in nature. The same Mongols you might be thinking of also had their own gods.
>>17973881Interesting source, but "wolf god"? I've never heard of it before
>>17973246>In the Celtic branch in both Iberia and Ireland snakes were said to steal milk and held responsible when cows stopped giving milk.Can confirm that the folklore of the "suckling serpents" still exists in Portugal, although it's very rare nowadays. I've read that on Northeastern Brazil that myth it's still pretty common, certainly taken there by Portuguese settlers.
>>17973896>>17973246There is a book about this, probably PIE inheritance about the fact that these animals are generally harmful to livestock, and therefore causing them to die, so a mythological explanation was created. Related photo
>>17973906>>17973896Cool
>>17973906Very interesting and academic book, much better than>>17972954worth the read!
>>17973906>>17973896Its a PIE lengend, somehow >>17972954They had a kind of sacred fire, similar to the Iranian one to some extent, which must always be kept burning
>>17973007>>17973246Literal low IQ subhuman trying to compensate. Get raped to death and be reborn as a jeet in the afterlife.
>>17973246My bad.Meant for >>17973246
>>17973939I am a fucking nigger. >>17973767
>>17973937It seems like Yoruba beliefs are so primitive.>>17973777Cry more, but giving milk to a snake farm to prevent the spirits from grabbing your ass is ridiculous.
>>17973884I also find this interpretation strange.Is there any etymological evidence?
>>17973947Asians should be exterminated. Brown slant-eyed mystery meat atheistic SEAnigger. I will feed my snakes with milk and there's nothing you can do about it.
>>17973953Hahaha thanks for the trolling, sissy. But hey, I'm not religious or anything, but so far what I've been presented here is bizarrely Yoruba, and why do you accuse me of being a chink? The Baltics had a totally shamanic and animistic religion like the Asians. You can hate Christians as much as you say, but gurus or 50-year-old witches who see the world through dreams are African. Greek paganism is still the coherent one.
>>17973949I don't knowI'm sure this "wolf god of war" isn't present in other branches... if true, perhaps a Baltic innovation? Does anyone know otherwise?
>>17973928>>17973906>>17973881Bump
There are many works in Prussian and other Slavic languages that have not been translated into English on this topic, and not all of them are by Larpagans. Could someone make an effort and translate them? In our thread on Iberian mythology, things were revealed to us that no one would have imagined. The finally translated works are incredible. There is an anonymous person who talks about etymology, who posted some information about Armenian mythology, for example, possibly a cognate with Iranian deities.
the Roman religion in the kingdom and early republic was also more primitive and animistic until they essentially adopted the Greek pantheon wholesale
>>17974152My dear Baltic, it turns out they didn't have snake milk farms, nor were they so infantile as to not kill wolves out of fear and respect for a wolf that walks on its paws, you know? Besides, all pagan religions are animistic, but when this is your religious standard, things are different. And shamanism in the Mediterranean was never a thing.
>>17974141This
>>17974152The Romans in fact practiced divination by "reading" animal entrails which no one else in the western world did outside the Assyrians.
>>17974204It's not true, Greeks and even Gauls did this, if this was an attempt to show how primitive the Roman pagan religion was, it had no effect. The Baltic religion had no impersonality
Value of Baltic folklore.
>>17973928Vesta is the goddess of the hearth and of domestic things. In the temple of Vesta, the eternal Ignis (fire) burns. There is no other image (idol) of the goddess in the temple. That perpetually glowing fire signifies that Rome is an eternal city
>>17974524I am a champion of superiority.Indo-European religion absorbed many local customs wherever it went, But fire was already revered by Indo-Europeans, so we're talking about adopting just another style of something they already did. It's PIE, since we have examples in various branches, not just Iranian.
>>17974524>>17974531there is also the Latvian goddess Fire goddess, "Uguns māte"
>>17974509Bro? If, as this source claims, folklore is the "source" for reconstruction, I'm sorry to say, but it doesn't tell us more than the Christian sources it disregards attest. If the author said> both are fragmentedOK, but placing faith purely in folklore that, as neopagans say, is "corrupt" with Christianity is quite foolish. In fact, Christian sources, especially those with a negative bias toward pagan religions, are the best sources because they describe the "negative" aspects of these religions, making them more accurate.this guy is right>>17973807>>17974524>>17974538>>17973928Aren't there two words for fire in DUST? Perhaps one was used as a kind of sacramental? and the other a general word for fire
>>17974552>DUSTWtf lolPiE*
>>17974552Not exactly,synonymy cases don't show the same isoglossal curve, but there is fire-type vs. Agni-typethe latter seems to be related to deities, in Iranian and Baltic at least, or in a religious (Roman) aspect as the other anons attested.
The coolest thing is that the fire deity in many branches has a feminine appearance, but for the Indo-Aryans there was an invocation in the entity's sex. But they all preserve the elementary and archetypal characteristic of being something that "cares," something that "welcomes," perhaps that's why it's associated with the feminine. (VII.1.15) agni will:>Free the kindler [of the flame] from distresAnd Agní is "to be maintained (भर्त॑व्यः) by the care of men
a GOOD thread on /his/, anons civilly discussing mythology and posting sources! it's so beautiful, thank you, transvestites
>>17972954Lithuanian paganism survived into 15th century. Did they not bother to write down anything?
>>17974586Good theory
>>17974607As this anon said>>17974141There's a LOT of stuff written in their respective untranslated languages. What we know, at least what's academic without larp, are sources from some third-party translations and folklore. Which isn't bad, of course.
>>17974648Written by Christians, neopagans don't accept it
>>17974720Who cares about crawling insects as much as modern "pagans"? They have no relevance in academia. If they don't accept the only means of written form, then that's their problem.They weren't literate, and why don't insects have the same problem with the RV? Written in the Middle Ages by people like Hindus or even Buddhists, they have the same "corruption" problems mentioned here. The same goes for Celtic and Germanic writings.E-pagans aren't academic at all lol
>>17973906>>17973928I don't know if you ever killed snakes, I have killed a few, and sometimes, when you wack them, a bit of milky white liquid musk comes out. They also segregate this white musk when alive and angry/annoyed/scared.I ain't saying that's the origin of the suckling snake myth, but it might be connected. Some PIE dude wacks a snake near his cattle, sees something that looks like milk coming out of the snake, maybe he thinks the snake was sucking on his cows titties.
>>17974927Well, we are talking about steppe men living at least 3400 BC in Ukraine, they didn't have postgraduate courses in biology, so... it's not that impossible, the legend of H2epom Nepōts (Apam Napat) may come from the high levels of natural gas in Ukraine, but the most logical so far, but who knows??
>>17973881The RV includes an example of a nom de guerre, Dasyavevrka, Wolf to the Dasyu. Given the cultic interest in wolves, I think we can be certain that the pairing of an enemy people/tribe with Wolf was an ancient Indo-European naming convention. PIE: (EEF tribe?) + *wĺ̥kʷos
>>17974927It was a tall tale told to women and children. You have one job as a young shepherd boy: protect the livestock and take care of the sheep dog. Father needs you to kill any snakes around the cattle, so he takes his shepherd staff and demonstrates snake disposal with a few good whacks. Afterwards he causes a milky substance to come out of the snake's mouth and tells you that you need to kill any snakes you come across or else they'll steal your precious milk.Later Balto-Slavs and Sintashta had this idea about guardian snakes for unclear reasons. They remembered snakes stole milk, so that's why Slavs would leave milk outside their houses in order to please the guardian snake. For some reason Hindus ended up taking real living snakes to forcefeed them milk.
>>17974996There's a coupleTrasa•dasyu = “tormentor of the Dasyus”.Dasyave•vrka = “a wolf towards the Dasyus”.
>>17972969>We know *nothing* about Baltic-Slavic or "Celtic" paganismWe do know a fair bit, retard. For starters, the names of the deities never went anywhere, people sing folk songs about them to this very day here, ones which have been the same since paganism was still an actual religion.Do we have any solid, detailed accounts of religious practices? Not really. Do we have surviving traces of rituals, celebrations, etc? Yes, tons. Do we have external contemporary descriptions? Also yes.
>>17974141>in Prussian and other Slavic languagesget raped to death, nigger.
>>17975037Stop lying anon, please?Are you going to ruin the thread with these lies?Read more and cope less
>>17975058>>17974996There's more? Where do can find it?
>>17975101>We do know a fair bit, No, lmao There was no single "le paganism" that preceded the arrival of Christianity in these societies kekWe don't even know the entire Baltic pantheon, your gang expands and says that what was preserved is invalid
>>17975101>Do we have any solid, detailed accounts of religious practices? Not reallySo why should we believe this more than Cuban rituais of flying negroes? It seems false
>>17975101>For starters, the names of the deities never went anywhere, people sing folk songs about them to this very day here, ones which have been the same since paganism was still an actual religionAccording to?
>>17975165>t. doesn't believe in the milk bandit serpentsYou'll never be as tall as your father after those crafty snakes take all your milk, boy
>>17975058>>17973881>>17975058Based and wolfpilled>>17973906Book source
I've studied some material on the slavic mythology and I'm afraid the baltic one will be similar. As far as primary, direct sources there's nothing. You will see no sagas or concrete stories.The very first modern person who tried to reconstruct slavic mythology was a literal Polish schizophrenic(living in circa 1800) who, in his madness did a great service to ethnology by writing down any folk song or story he encountered during his travels and proposed to use them to sort of triangulate the actual mythology. The latter hasn't really materialised. We've had attempts at serious study of those and the archaeological as well as medieval written evidence on them and we kinda sort of suspect that if Dumezil was correct then what we know sort of fits the patterns he has found. The actual study of the folklore is however very questionable iirc reading ap phd thesis turned into a book that tried to figure out if there are some creation myths in them and there's something going on there because they tend to consistently involve 2 characters with the creation occurring as a result of attempt as a side effect of one of the characters trying to slight or hurt the other(sort of parallel with the whole initial sacrifice thing comparativists came up with) but honestly I'm not entirely convinced.So if there's even anyone trying to get at the bottom of baltic paganism it probably looks sort of like the above. A lot of comparative analysis, some assumptions and very little actual facts. It saddens me but I've accepted it.
>>17973246https://fi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/El%C3%A4ttik%C3%A4%C3%A4rme
>>17976290He's wrong, it's not that. It's due to cattle attacks.>>17975884Herehttps://stockholmuniversitypress.se/reader/books/pdf/10.16993/bcu
>Live snakes were domesticated snakes that were kept as pets on farms and were also believed to have supernatural abilities.LMAO Yoruba mind
>>17976268Its basically fake, yes.Thank you
>>17976268>comparativists came up withIt is not simply inventing, there are good arguments for this, finding something in two closely related branches like Celtic and Germanic, may be due purely to mutual sharing of contact groups, but in branches as distant and without mutual relation as Iranian, it cannot be simply a coincidence of chancethe rest of the post is not necessarily wrong, but it is quite reductionist, there have in fact been some advances in the Baltic mythology field, and there are untranslated works
>>17976268>The actual study of the folklore is however very questionablebut not fruitless>>17974509
>>17976268what is actual facts here?>>17976660Thank you
>>17972999>Was it necessary to disrespect people?On 4chan? yes
>>17975213>According toNestor the HagiographerAndreas KaisarovNikolai Mikhailovich GalkovskiyAlexander HilferdingBoris Aleksandrovich Rybakovetc etcI always kek when I read about western claiming "we dunno anything about slavic paganism". Yes, YOU don't, because you don't ever try to read anything that isn't found in wikipedia or summarized by chatGPT.
>>17972954>"Baltic religion", "Slavic religion", "Celtic religion"This has always bothered me. The idea that all religions are organized religions like Christianity, or even the idea of "religion" itself which is so christian coded and so modern. This cripples all studies of local faiths and beliefs of pre-Christian Europe
>>17975101>people sing folk songs about them to this very day hereDoes this mean they are larpagans? An internet schizo told me they are, or something
>>17978370Not necessarily
>>17977842>written by Christian BTFO'd
>>17978283There's There's a LOT of stuff written in their respective untranslated languages
>>17973007>flying wolf>cow's milk to snakesWhere did you get this?
>>17972954nigga if the book wasn't written byStaviskavist Cvaertalsicmis (Baltic Bull) then don't read it. Would you eat at a Chinese run by a Korean guy? No fucking way!
>>17979106Tell me more
>>17978711He is correct See>>17973906
>>17979223Hes trolling you
