Just because our God is omniscient and omnipotent, doesn't mean we don't get to have free will.

>>17975630
Actually, the very existence of an omniscient being would prove that free will is false. If he's omniscient, then he knows everything we're going to do before we do it: in other words, all our actions are predetermined, no matter how hard we try we are always going to do exactly what God expects us to do.

Which is it, then?
>God is omniscient, meaning free will can't exist
>Free will exists, meaning God isn't omniscient

>>17975682
gods represent their people
if the jewish god is a monster, then what does that tell you

>>17975682
It's a paradox that is solved by the concept of infinity. How can there be determinism if the chain of causes goes on forever?

>>17975700
Even infinity is not too big for an omnipotent God.

>>17975549
what is free will?

>>17975549
>he knows will
nobody has ever been articulate enough to explain why this matters

>>17975734
Omni potent means "all potential".
Just because something is possible, that doesn't mean it is manifested.

>>17975774
>that doesn't mean it is manifested.
He could if he wanted to. It's baffling how you stupid retards like to claim god is all powerful and then come up with all this gay pilpul and mental gymnastics to minimize his power.

>>17975771
It matters when we make it matter.

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>>17975771
Why would he knowingly create sinners when he could not create them instead? What's the point, other than the glee he will get from throwing them into hell (he loves us btw)

>>17975777
Just because I have gun, or explosive, or any other power tool, doesnt mean I should use it constantly in every possible way. There is power in restraint, and restraint is mostly be good, as the path to heaven is narrow.

>>17975790
You still havent answered why the supreme being would ever be limited by anything

>>17975781
>glee he will get from throwing them into hell
This is not the Holy Spirit.

Ezekiel 33:11
"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live."

>>17975791
By choice.

>>17975682
Knowing something doesnt mean forcing something.

>>17975796
And how do you know that?
>>17975802
It does when you're the supreme power in the universe. That means you get your way all the time, because if something wasn't satisfactory to you, it would be another way. God thinks the universe as it is is "just right", including all the rape and murder

>>17975795
If he didn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked he wouldn't kill them/torture them for eternity. No one has a gun to god's head forcing him to send billions to Hell.

>>17975811
You also have the power to "let" other things do their things.

>>17975813
His knowledge of what will happen and not stopping it with his infinite power, even if it's heinously evil or violent, is him essentially condoning it. In fact, it may as well be the same as him personally doing it. That's the baggage that comes with being omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Every time a child is raped, God is there in the room watching and does nothing. But the victim is supposed to grow up thinking
>I'm so glad my rapist will go to hell at the end! God is so good!

>>17975781
>Why would he knowingly create sinners
can you articulate why his knowledge matters?

>>17975812
>If he didn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked he wouldn't kill them/torture them for eternity.
can you articulate why this is

>>17975825
Because him having full knowledge and going ahead with creation anyway means he condones whatever his creation does, including evil. Words in a book that say he doesn't condone it doesn't change the observable, unavoidable reality. Good people are also punished in this world much more than evil people, which is why we have the hell cope so peasants can fantasize about their abusers being punished in the afterlife

>>17975833
>Because him having full knowledge and going ahead with creation anyway means he condones
the question isn't whether he condones sin or not. it's whether he hates it.

>>17975817
yah, thats the experiment of free will. that you have the choice between good or not good. that you are not forced to do good, but have to make the active effort to. Thats the fall of man and the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Once we became moral beings with agency, evil begins. Being able to chose good instead of simply being forced to brings us closer to god rather than a mere eminence in a logical sequence of chemical reactions. Becoming not just objects, but subjects with the agency to guild and mold according to judgements.

>>17975851
>experiment
An all knowing God wouldn't need to do any kind of "experiment". We do experiments to find the answers to questions we don't already know.
>>17975847
What does "hating" something mean if you don't stop it from happening when you are completely 100% within your power to stop? If you were in a room with a child being raped by an adult would you try to stop it from happening? God is, and doesn't.

>>17975812
it's more difficult than that.
he sends you in the same sense that water drowns you, after you get drunk and go swimming.
>but he knew i was an idiot
well, knowledge is more difficult than you think it is. you need to articulate why his knowledge precludes your decision making.

>>17975855
>when you are completely 100% within your power to stop
again, can you explain why this matters?

>>17975862
God not stopping child rape when it would cost him nothing to is proof that he's evil and doesn't care when children get raped.

>>17975867
>it would cost him nothing to is proof that he's evil
can you explain why cost is relevant?

>>17975682
molinist detected

>>17975872
what's his reason for allowing child rape and why does it make him good?

>>17975791
the opposite of supremacy is impotence.
"limits" don't equate to impotence.

>>17975855
Its an experiment from out point of view. the only one we have as limited being. while god is the infinite that we see reflected within ourselves. The hope and potential you can see within every choice within every scenario that might be.

>>17975885
Who set the limits on god? and why? if he set them himself they're not really limits. If something else set them he's not really the supreme god.

>>17975887
>Its an experiment from out point of view.
So why is God doing it then, from his infinite point of view?

>>17975877
We don't really "call" God good.
We call goodness, God, and then we describe it.
It gets abstract the same way black holes do.

You wouldn't consider yourself equipped to describe black holes like a physicist or a mathematician does. So what makes you an authority on morality, without any practice?

>>17975811
>And how do you know that?
Because I experience the phenomena, and I choose how to define it, and I am empowered by the logos.

>>17975901
>I know I'm right because I'm powered by de holy spirit!!!!

You and billions of other people from the thousands of different conflicting denominations throughout history

>>17975888
>who set the limits on god
Is a poorly worded question. You don't need another entity to "set" the limit. The absence of good is evil. Goodness is therefore "limited" to itself. But nobody "set" that limit.

>>17975900
>So what makes you an authority on morality
What makes you an authority? Are you a trained theologian? I read the Bible, just like you do. Except I actually read it for what it is instead of letting people I think are smarter than me explain it to me, like you

>>17975904
That many people are wrong doesn't mean everybody is wrong.

>>17975906
God is so powerful he could have created a universe with only good and no evil, essentially making the entire universe heaven. There's no reason he couldn't do this.

>>17975889
So that you can exist.

>>17975911
He did do this. but he also made everything in between as well. Heaven, hell, and the earth.

>>17975908
It's not really that I'm an authority; it's more that I obey the right authority.
Someone had to teach you how to read, and someone has to teach you to understand. You don't know better than God.

>>17975914
What if some people would rather not exist? Like people who live short miserable lives before dying at the hands of their abusive parents.
>>17975917
Why does he force a large chunk of his creation to live in the shitty parts if he's all good?

>>17975918
>You don't know better than God.
I reject the notion that your penis blood sucking Israelite war god is the supreme being who created the universe

>>17975911
And?

>>17975924
Wouldn't that be the "maximally good" thing to do?

>>17975921
Ironically, that's because you reject the very concept of goodness.

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>>17975929
>the very concept of goodness
christpedo moment

>>17975904
>You and billions of other people from the thousands of different conflicting denominations
If you foster a belief that is void of agency, you will become a slave, by definition. Is it good, or bad, to be a slave? Judge for yourself, and make a choice. Do you want to be free, or do you want to be a slave? All you're doing is defining your experiance. You have the choice to see what you want, and it will effect your motivation.

>>17975932
I do want to be free. Paul wants you to be a slave to Rightenousness/Christ/YHWH. In Christianity there is no freedom just choose your master.

>>17975919
Because he knows good is possible even in the worst situations.

>>17975927
From an engineering perspective, it sounds like it, but I think it's more difficult than that.
I think it's more difficult than that because people who are smarter than me disagree. I trust Brian Cox to teach me about black holes; I trust theologians to teach me about goodness.

I also think our understanding of concepts like "god's knowledge" and of what is "maximally good" is limited by time and space.

>>17975941
What good is there in babies being abused to death by their parents, born with horrific fatal deformities, become murderers themselves later in life etc?
>idk bro just trust me there's good god works in mysterious ways trust me bro

>>17975943
>but I think it's more difficult than that.
>more difficult

God is supposed to be infinitely powerful (all mighty, get it?) remember? Holy fuck.

>>17975931
So then do you believe in goodness?
Why hasn't it gotten rid of the things you think are no good?
Is it too weak to do so?
Is weakness then goodness?

>>17975949
i mean only that the question is more difficult, my ornery friend. To the creator, it's no mystery.

>>17975950
I do, and I think your god is actually the antithesis of goodness.

>>17975935
Jesus is defined as the way, the truth, and the life. The salvation of God. The selection of Good judgement. Jesus Christ is your choice.

Love the Lord, YOUR God. And, love your neighbor as yourself. These are the same command. Hubris leads to nemesis. You can't save yourself. We need eachother.

>>17975945
for one, they don't have to stay in the world with their abusers. their pain is limited.

>>17975956
>To the creator, it's no mystery.
Then why doesn't he just do it, if you agree it's maximally good? We're just going in circles, you can't answer.

>>17975958
>Jesus is defined as the way, the truth, and the life.
Yeah according to himself and other Jews from antiquity. Why does that mean anything to me?

>>17975957
so then answer the other questions.

>>17975963
>if you agree it's maximally good?
I didn't agree.
I said it sounds good from an engineering perspective but that in truth it's "more difficult".
Then I told you why I think that.
But you're hella mad and you don't want to hear me out.

>>17975971
>but that in truth it's "more difficult".
And you said to us it's a mystery but God knows the answer, so he must know how to go about it, because he is omnipotent and can accomplish anything.

>>17975963
>Why does that mean anything to me?
The Bible is a dictionary. 6000 years of philosophy, and nomenclature shared by multiple cultures. You can kill the word for your own tradition, but the truth will rise in three days. The language is arbitrary, but established. Half the world is abrahamic. Are you going to just start your own cult, or are you going to stand on the shoulders of giants?

>>17975975
So then what's your malfunction?

>>17975981
God must know how to do it and is perfectly capable, but chooses not to. Because he's not good, not benevolent.

>>17975975
Sorry, I misread your response, and you misread mine.
>so he must know how to go about it
Yes, he knows how to do it, but he didn't because morality doesn't belong to our engineers. He's doing something better.
I don't know why it's better, but I trust the theologians who know more than me when they say it is.
Same as I trust really good mathematicians to talk about abstract math.

>>17975984
God is good judgement. We are approaching and shaping heaven, but we are not there. The creation of God's kingdom is described as dividing waters, separating wheat from chaff, pruning vines, and cutting with a sword. He creates with judgement. Something is there that he is judging, and we are in the middle of that process.

>>17975992
I'm not the guy you're quoting but the key element is time.
God existing as goodness alone seems to him as maximally good, and so any deviation from that must be evil.
You and I understand that by creating "process", and universe, he exceeded the boundary of goodness alone.

Anyway, as an atheist, as soon as you admit that by creating the universe, goodness is evil, you've lost your mind. I don't know how this is supposed to be "more" rational than what we're saying.

>>17975630
>free will
Debunked by determinism, so you are a liar.
But even if free will existed, it would never follow from it that sin can exist. You're making false assumptions and non sequiturs because you're a dumb liar like your god.

>>17976023
>determinism
I choose not to believe in that

>>17976033
It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in it. You probably believe the Earth is flat too but that doesn't make the Earth not a globe.

>>17976039
>It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in it.
I choose to believe that it does matter.

>>17976057
get his ass

>>17975630
Then why would god condemn murder and theft and whatnot if the victims got murdered and robbed an all of that entirely of their own free will?

>>17975549
"God" is the demiurge. That's his problem.

>>17975802
But he forces things he know is bad.
>>17975825
If you know a toilet is hooked up so that the shit gets mixed with hot peppers and sprayed directly in your face, why would you ever use that toilet unless you are either completely retarded or a weird sick fuck?

>>17975851
>you have the choice between good or not good.
No you don't, bad things are going to happen to you no matter how much you would want to choose only good things to happen, it doesn't matter how much money the dumb rich guy wastes because he wants to live forever, he is still going to die.

>>17975872
To actual people trying to stop evil might cost them their lives and they wouldn't be able to stop evil or do anything, but that is not god's limits, there is no repercussions if he tries to stop power evil men from doing powerfully evil things.

>>17975549
Nowhere in the old testamend is yhwh said to be omnipotent/omnibenevolent etc. Those are allbthings made up later by christians under the influence of greek philosophy

>>17975630
God clearly doesn't care about free will; if you don't act exactly how he wants you go to hell

>>17975885
Yes it does, if someone has some hard limited from doing something, it means any efforts to do it are impotent because of the limitations preventing them from doing so.

>>17975900
Black hole mathematical models weren't purportedly created by a perfect being like the bible claims to be, so they aren't perfectly communicated like the word of a perfect being should be.

>>17975906
>But nobody "set" that limit.
So nobody created a fruit and said eating that fruit was the limit to goodness?

>>17975917
>only
>also
If you don't even understand the definition of only, what makes you think you can understand anything being discussed?

>>17975929
So you see a comment about sucking bloody baby penises and your first instinct is to say its a rejection of goodness not to suck on them?

>>17975941
Why create the worst situations in the first place, why not create better possibilities out of good situations?

>>17975962
So since god abused them by putting them in that situation, they don't have to deal with god anymore when they get to heaven or god is just going to burn them after their life of abuse for the lulz?

>>17975958
>You can't save yourself.
That isn't the question people are asking, they are asking if god is all powerful and wants everyone to be saved, why doesn't he just save them before the bad things happen to them instead of waiting for them to be raped and murdered, then saving only their souls instead of the rest of them?

>>17975990
>I don't know why it's better, but I trust the theologians who know more than me when they say it is.
So they don't know why either, they just trust themselves and their feelings more than hard logic and you trust them simply because they are more confident in themselves than you?

>>17975992
So he only creates evil because he gets off on unnecessarily judging and punishing while watching helpless good things struggle against the evil things he created?

>>17976004
>as soon as you admit that by creating the universe, goodness is evil, you've lost your mind.
That isn't what they are saying, they are saying if you intentionally create evil for evil's sake just so you can judge it and marvel at how good you are in comparison, you can't claim to be all good.

>>17976033
So your determination is that things can't be determined?

>>17976166
He does not create evil for evils sake. Evil is created for the sake of good. Good is formed, and evil is created as the opposite of good. This is explained in Job. The creations of god present themselves before the Lord, and the opposite (satan) is there with them. God says, "where did this shit come from", and the opposite of the Son of God (his formations) says, "i have been going back and forth on the earth." Satan is the opposite of what is being formed. The shadow of the light. The cold of the heat. If motion is heat, cold is the absence of heat.

>>17976167
I am able to change if I choose.

>>17976160
>he only creates evil
No. He shapes and forms what is good, and evil is created as the opposite of that good formation.

>>17976559
>>>/lgbt/
No, tranny, you can only change your outfit, you can't change your nature.

>>17975549
because fuck you. that's why.

read the book of Job.

>>17976152
>all powerful
All potential.
Pick up your bed and walk.

How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

>>17976556
So god doesn't have power against the yin and yang, everything he creates will naturally have an unrestrainable counterpoint beyond his control?

>>17976565
Jesus has two natures, and both of them are with me. I don't put on clothes by casting lots. I eat fruit, and I know his voice, and I choose what I wear, and when I wear it.

>>17976568
>How long will you defend the unjust
>and show partiality to the wicked?
I am not the one simping for a jewish desert demon.
>Defend the weak and the fatherless;
The why are you defending the most powerful being that is its own father?
>uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
>Rescue the weak and the needy;
>deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
By defending a religion of kings and nations who drive most of those unnecessary needs and do most of the wickedness?

>>17976576
>I eat
Yes because you have to do that to survive and nothing you can do will change your nature and the eventual hunger that will force you to eat to stay alive.

>>17976570
No. It is restrainable, by choice, and there is power in restraint. The restraint is better than the unrestrained, as the path to heaven is narrow. The restraint of God is like a veil holding back a fire that has the potential to burn up the world. The restraint of God, is his humanity.

>>17976583
So he just enjoys evil despite being able to stop it?

>the path to heaven is narrow.
So god is powerless to widen paths just like he is powerless to prevent shadows?

>>17976581
Then I will eat chaos, and produce order.

>>17976588
>enjoys evil despite being able to stop it
No. He does stop it, everytime you stop it. You are his manifestation when you do good.

>>17976588
>powerless to prevent shadows?
Do unrealized concepts exist? Make.evil a fantasy. Choose good.

No. We are not powerless to prevent evil Anon. We do it all the time, and we need to convince our brothers to join us. All this talk of evil being created for the sake of evil os getting us nowhere.

Do good.

>>17976595
I can't stop evil, I can't even convince you to stop worshiping evil jewish demon in theory let alone stop you from doing their evil blood rituals and trying to manifest their evil prophecies of worldwide racism and war.

>>17976598
Shadows aren't unrealized, they are real things that result from light really being blocked.

> We are not powerless to prevent evil
Yes we are, just read the thread, half of you demon apologists won't even admit evil exists let along that it can be stopped because evil can be quite inconvenient to your demonic narrative.

>>17976600
You can choose to stop arguing with straw men. That would be a start. No one is doing any blood rituals here.

>>17976603
So you don't even like jesus enough to participate in the sacraments as recommended by the christian organizations of the world as the only path to heaven?

>>17976600
No one is worshiping an evil Jewish demon except for the evil fantasy in your head that neither of us is actually manifesting.

Why are you scared of ghosts? Be brave. It is I.

>>17976602
It is stopped everytime you choose to stop it. You have the power to stick your face on a hot stove, but you restrain yourself, because that restraint is good. You have the power to stop evil. Thank you Anon. You are a good person in that regard. Keep it up.

>>17976611
Everyone who holds sacred jewish mythological books full of demons worships them.
I don't believe in ghosts, I am scared of retards like you that do retard things because you were lead to believe in ghosts or believe you can become an apex ghosts by doing what the king ghosts says.

>>17976617
>It is stopped everytime you choose to stop it.
How exactly can I choose to stop you from worshiping evil demons and do evil things like telling evil lies as a result let alone choose to stop greater evils like fire's ability to burn people alive or cancer's ability to kill infants?

>>17976605
I see.
As you said, everyone must eat. Digestion is a part of life. Transubstantiation is the turning of food like bread and water into body and blood. A miracle you do every day without thinking to hard about it. So eat the lesser order, and convert it to a higher order. This is the formation of the kingdom of heaven.

In terms of the suffering of food, I agree that we can do better. Branches are still being pruned.

>>17976620
>demons
Demons are remembered as fantasy. We learn from our mistakes. We hold on to bad memories so as not to repeat them.

>>17976626
>how can I choose to stop you from worshiping evil demons
This one is easy. You have 100% control over the straw man in your head. Just stop believing in him, and listen to me.

>>17976626
>choose to stop greater evils like fire's ability to burn people alive or cancer's ability to kill infants?
I agree, these are greater evils. Study fire and cancer. Learn how it works, and then restrain it. Eat the chaos of destruction that is fire, and the unrestrained growth that is cancer, and produce an order of your choosing.

>>17976644
No, the demons are straw men in your head, I don't believe in them I just know you believe in them without ever actually encountering them.

>>17975549
He loves roasting sinners in a sea of lava more than he hates inners.

>>17976645
Why is it on me when your god is the one who regularly takes the form of fire and brags about having an eternal lake of fire?

>>17975549
He loves roasting sinners in a sea of lava more than he hates sinners.

ftfm

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>>17975630
It actually means exactly that. A being that can see you born, living, and dying all in one eternal moment can forbid you to do something at the same time as it punishes you.

Think of a creature that appears to you as a piece of steel wire. One end is its birth, the other end is its death, the bends and turns between the two are the events in its life.

You can burn it at one end while teaching it at the other, knowing every last event as one object from your point of view. Now multiply that by billions and you've got a conception of God that is merely and only a broken, hideous human mind and no God at all.

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>>17976631
>digestion is supernatural magic
>food is lesser, i am higher
so shit is hell?

>>17976647
What demons do you see in my head?

>>17976650
Its on all of us, I'm asking for your help.

>>17976669
>>17976583

>>17976656
>so shit is hell?
No. My shit is worshiped by lesser beings, like flies and plants. That is why I eat them. They deserve better.

>>17976680
You eat flies?

This thread fucken sucks.

>>17976675
What's wrong with restraining evil Anon? Why do you think that this idea is "demonic".

>>17976686
Lulz.
I eat beings that eat flies, so in a way, they make their way into my body.

>tasks one of his creations with introducing and spreading wickedness and sin
>tasks them with dealing with all the sinners for all eternity
>tells everyone to hate him and cast blame on him for all the wickedness

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>>17976697
In a way, you're a boring cunt that belongs on /x/.

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>>17976705
I'm just answering questions. If you want excitement, you should probably get off of 4chan and go do something in the real world.

>>17976166
>they are saying if you intentionally create evil for evil's sake
They weren't actually. Not in the conversation I was referring to.
We were debating a couple different things at once
1. whether knowing the future is the same as creating it
2. Whether allowing something you dont like is the same as not hating it
3. Whether creating the universe in time was an evil act

>>17975795
>And just as the Lord took delight in making you prosperous and numerous, so the Lord will take delight in bringing you to ruin and destruction

What now?

>>17976980
"I cant prove my point but I'll take you down with me"
Use your common sense. These quotes dont live in isolation from one another. The most likely resolution between them is probably maintained by the whole institution in charge of genuinely perpetuating the correct understanding of the text.

>>17975682
God only knows what we can and will do, he doesn't control us.
>>17976078
The death of the victims would be the consequence of the murderer's free will, not the victim's.

>>17976145
To show that good can be found even in there.

>>17975682
>If he's omniscient, then he knows everything we're going to do before we do it
God doesn't predict anything, that's a mistake of human imagination that we project onto god. Everything happens moment to moment; god sees our choices and elevates or doesn't elevate us based on those choices.

>>17977011
So does god take delight in destruction or not?

>>17977813
>God only knows what we can and will do, he doesn't control us.

God knew before the creation of the universe how everything would pan out; can a human do something god didn't see before creation?

>>17977821
What is the good of child bone cancer?

>>17978252
>What is the good of child bone cancer?
It was explained to you that discriminating between good and evil caused the fall from Eden. You can come to realize that everything just happens, without being 'good' or 'evil.' Realizing this, you start to come back to neutrality, to gnosis.

>>17978251
Yes, because the future is never fully determined.

>>17978258
But there was no fall from Eden,that's not a real thing