>Liberalism - The right to own private property>Communism - The collective ownership of the means of productionOk, now do Fascism
>>17976801Why do they all have to be defined strictly by their relation to property ownership. It won't be very instructive in the case of fascism because fascism wasn't really so concerned with that question and embraced liberal and socialist ideas both
>>17976801Fascism = state ownership of property>but how is that different from communism?In practice it usually isn't, but in communist theory, the workers on a farm all collectively own it, manage it, and equally profit off of it. While in fascist theory, the state/nation/folk, led and represented by the Party (who are the strongest and most superior), own and manage the farm.
>>17976804Its not about the relationship to property ownership, its the fact that you can easily summarize liberalism and communism with a short sentence to get to the core of what they are going for. With Fascism its impossible because people need to "se the stage" with all sorts of qualifiers before they can even start this process. This isnt a jab at Fascism that its not a real ideology, its a jab at people for deliberatly muddying the waters to the point where no one even knows what Fascism was or what it was really aiming for.
>>17976808>but in communist theory, the workers on a farm all collectively own it, manage it, and equally profit off of it.wrong. In communist theory, the state owns the means of production. If you're definition of Fascism is that its state ownership of property, then it is identical to Communism.
Fascism = the merger of the interests of the state and corporationsChina is basically fascist having moved from far left economics to the middle while keeping authoritarian governance, USA/Canada, Australia/NZ and the UK/EU are becoming more and more like China... many things you can't say. Hell, Canada froze the bank accounts of people who donated to a peaceful protest against government policies. You think just because we're not speaking German that fascism won't prevail?
>>17976812The idea behind communism is to seize control of the state to abolish the state through democratization of property. Fascism doesn't want to abolish the state, rather it believes the state is everything.>then it is identical to Communism.That's why I differentiate between theory and reality. In reality yes, both are totalitarian single-party systems that seek ownership of all property.
>>17976816So Obama is peak fascism?
>>17976801Subjugation of the economy for the interests of the state
>>17976801>Fascism - the end of class antagonism without the dissolvement of class society done through revolutionary Corporatism
>>17976816>State and corporationsWhen Fascism talks about corporations, its not talking about giant big business like Microsoft or something. This is mainly do to a poor translation of Umberto Ecco, but its not "corporation" the actual word that was used by the Fascist is "corporazione" which translates into guild, as in a medieval guild. This is the root of Fascisms anti-capitalism really. Also, China is a communist state in every since. >>17976817You said that Communism is when the workers own the means of production. Im pointing out that even in communist theory, the state owns the means of production on behalf of the workers.
>>17976801State ownership on behalf of the nation
>>17976856>even in communist theory, the state owns the means of productionIt's a semantics argument but I think it's important. In fascism, the state is not comprised of workers, but rather the Party, made up of (in theory) the strongest individuals who have every right to govern and dominate. They own and manage the means of production, not for the benefit of the workers, for the workers are simply economic units who will do what they're told, but for the benefit of the state, which fascists view as a real, singular, organic entity. Everything by and for the state. If it doesn't serve the needs of the state, it should be changed or abolished. Workers will do what is necessary for the state, they will make sacrifices for the state, they will die for the state, because all that matters is the state.Communism believes the state (which is in a temporary transition period moving towards a stateless society) should be comprised of workers for the benefit of workers. The state is a merely tool: the mission is for the working class. The workers democratically decide how to mange production, for their own collective and individual benefit. The state doesn't own property, the Party doesn't even own property, but the property is all collectively owned by the people who work it.
>>17976856The actual leftypols do, but effectively, in actual praxis, it did mean exactly that - the interests of business owners and the state were aligned against the interests and rights of the working class.>Im pointing out that even in communist theory, the state owns the means of production on behalf of the workers.There is no State in communist theory. It's only people living in the moment, controlling the means or production they're using.
>>17976817That's the point of George Orwells books such as Animal Farm.Communism when put into practice becomes what fascism is in theory.Nearly every communist state becomes hyper-authoritarian and extremely nationalist. The socialism of society and economy is exploited for the government, and then it just stays as such (North Korea, USSR, Cambodia, Maos China etc).Fascism is essentially just socialism with nationalism.Not to be confused with National-socialism which is basically just Hitlers personal brainchild and is all about racial socialism, antisemitism, social darwinism, Aryan belief, autarky, state expansionism etc.
>>17976880This is moving the goalpost and its not even true. In communism, the Official communist party is the only legally allowed political party that acts as the vanguard of the revolution on behalf of the people. In effect, this means communist states are a one party republic with the state and the communist party combining into some sort of Chimera. Fascism operates in a similar way. The only real difference is that in Communist thought, the state will simply wither away at some sort of non descript point in the distant future while Fascism points to the Fascist partys totalitarian state as the end goal rather than just a necessary step. Communist hold a similar totalitarian control because in their ideology, then need to hold onto the state so that reactionary forces wont take it back. They need to ban other parties so that reactionaries wont use underhanded tactics to slip in through elections.
you work, even if you're some useless chump you get handed a shiny shovel, but you get paid well, in part because no jews, in part because der Führer instructs corporations to act in the public interestI understand why the bourgeois bristle at the prospect ofbeing governed by people like us. Compared with us, the SocialDemocrats numbered in their ranks men with much betteroutward qualifications—from the point of view of the bourgeois,I mean. The bourgeois could only be terrified as theywitnessed the coming of this new society. But / knew that theonly man who could be really useful to us was the man capableof mounting on the barricades.
>>17976904What you're saying doesn't disprove my post. I've already stated that I agree with you: Fascism and Communism are near-identical in reality when put into practice. But if the question is what these ideologies believe in theory and how they view the concept of property, then there are important differences to distinguish.Monarchism believes property belongs to the king and is overseen by the lords he appoints.Liberalism believes property belongs to private individuals to be managed how they see fit.Socialism/Communism believes property belongs to the people who labor on it.Fascism believes property belongs to the State/Nation/Volk, to be managed by the Party.Anarchism believes there should be no such thing as property.
>>17976801Fascism is a racially exclusive form of corporatism. Corporatism is always the final stage of liberalism.>>17976808>>17976816>>17976844None of these people read have read a book on the matter.
>>17977112>None of these people read have read a book on the matter.>Corporatism is always the final stage of liberalism.You clearly haven't either
>>17977112>Corporatismanother retard who doesn't know the meaning of this word
>>17977126When monopolies start forming, the economy always devolve into corporatism. The US is in the final stage of liberalism. A handful of conglomerates own all the services provided to Americans. The governments of the US directly contracts with these conglomerates and their subsidies to implement social policy. Liberal economies never stay cutesy and mom and pop owned little guy. People rig the system to hoard.Lurk more
>>17977112>None of these people read have read a book on the matter.I've read some of Mussolini, Freda, Gentile, Marinetti and D'Annunzio. You clearly haven't read any of them>>17977140>When monopolies start forming, the economy always devolve into corporatism.That's corporatocracy you fucking retard. You are actually fucking retarded
>>17977146>corporatocracyLiterally does not exist as an ideology.Fascism is characteristically corporatist. The two most prolific examples of fascist states were corporatist.Cope
>>17977148Corporatism doesn't mean what you think it does
>>17977148>Fascism is characteristically corporatistNo shit My point is that you have no idea what that word means you fucking dumbass
>>17977151>>17977153Lol so make an argument instead of shitting your diaper. What is REAL corporatism according to you?
>>17976914>AnarchismDepends on what kind
>>17977148It does. Corporatism means state ownership of the economy, corporatocracy is the economic ownership of the state. Hence, the latter can never be fascist. The latter is what most of the west is right now. Businesses can jump trample all over state and no one restrains them. Its an inherent feature of neoliberalism and neoconservatism
>>17977322Doesn't exist
>>17976801>Ok, now do FascismThe right to own private propriety as long as you don't hurt the Volk, which is sacred.
>>17977322I can assure you that the state can walk over any corporation if they'd wanted to.It's just that capitalism recognize that a free market and small government is in the interest of the economy and thus for the people and the state.But don't sit here and tell me that the state is "owned" by corporations, and that businesses can "walk all over the state without restrain", that's such nonsense. You're fucking dumb if you believe this. Even in the most extreme capitalist states, businesses will always be completely subservient to state regulations.
National syndicalism is a more proper word for fascism.It's nationalism with syndicalismSyndicalism is a socialist doctrine.So fascism is socialist nationalism'Everything for the state by the state'Basically fascism is closer to communism, the difference is that fascism does not emphasize on class struggle or the abolishing of the state like communism does.Yet the tenets of socialism is still there. Likewise fascism is not National-socialism, because NS is all about race, social darwinism, antisemitism, expansionism, auatarky, Aryans etc. Fascism includes none of these.
>>17976801>do what we say>also give us your money
>>17977356You underestimate the power of foreign policy. One of the many reasons wars are fought are over properties being established internationally in order to spread capitalism.
>>17977323It does though + you are Jewish
>>17977322>Corporatism means state ownership of the economy,No it does not. That's just you rebranding what you think corporatism is for the sake of this argument.>corporatocracy is the economic ownership of the state. Hence, the latter can never be fascist.It can be fascist. They are not mutually exclusive.Nothing you wrote here is sound.>>17977373National syndicalism is a meme ideology like strasserism. Both realized that the capital class will always betray the nation, but were too dumb to see that the racial supremacy dogma was unnecessary and detrimental to their goal. They were too gullible to see that the psychos they associated with did not respect their position. That's why they both got betrayed in the end in Spain and Germany.>Basically fascism is closer to communism, the difference is that fascism does not emphasize on class struggle or the abolishing of the state like communism does.No. Fascism completely rejects class conflict. They believed that things like low wages can be fixed by singing and dancing with the bourgeoisie. That's characteristic to fascists. Communism doesn't even advocate the abolishing of the state.>Likewise fascism is not National-socialism, because NS is all about race, social darwinism, antisemitism, expansionism, auatarky, Aryans etc. Fascism includes none of these.Protofascism did not have racialistic components because it was a meme ideology conceived by the biggest losers of the west. The racialism came later on as the fascists realized how easy it was to rile their loser countrymen to war with race. Mussolini rejected hitlers nordicism sure. But that doesn't mean fascism isn't built on notion of ethnic or racial supremacy. Less Hearts of Iron, more books.
>>17977445>Communism doesn't even advocate the abolishing of the state???Communism by definition is a stateless, moneyless, classless society
>>17977387Foreign policy is evidence that big business in fact have no power over the state you dummy.States that are in geopolitical rivalry with each others have absolutely no problem imposing bans and restrictions on businesses (both foreign and domestic) that they feel does not serve the interests of the state.Your whole point was that businesses can just walk all over states, that states are subservient to corporations, when that's both a blatant lie and its actually retarded to even believe in.
>>17977453He's a fucking retarded. Ignore his entire bullshit.
>>17977453Never heard of vanguardism huh? Like I said, less PDX video game tool tips. More reading.
>>17977505>Never heard of vanguardism huh?You guys are like religious people, inventing a new denomination every time you have a disagreement
>>17977512>Leninism is now a new niche breakaway from marxism that nobody knows about.It's so entertaining to see what nonsense you'll post next.
>>17977505No one has mentioned video games except for you.I'm starting to think you're the one playing them and getting your info there, then projecting your insecurity of this awareness onto others.
>>17977534Very reddit response.Stick to your "fascism = communism because they regulate the market" stuff. You'll sound smarter.
>>17977526I don't really care about the intricate subtle differences between all your sects, sorry. Everyone else commonly defines communism as a stateless moneyless classless society where the workers collectively own the means of production. But hey glad I could entertain you, hope you got some nice screencaps to take back to leftypol or whatever
>>17976804That sounds ideal even. Solving actual problems instead of dwelling on wordcel """debate""". Why aren't we trying this bros?
>>17976808In practice Russian communists take property from Kulaks, Chinese communists take property from landlords, and German Fascists take property from Jews>but how are they different They are called different names.
>>17976801Every description of facsist ITT will ultimately differ very little from liberalism because post-WWII western governments co-opted many policies and reforms introduced by fascist states in the early 20th century."Fascism" these days is just another word for increased state control.
>>17977763>"Fascism" these days is just another word for increased state control.The word has been hijacked by the left against anyone they don't like.
>>17977807Fascism is a left wing ideology so I don't see how "the left" hijacked their own idea.
>>17977938That's exactly why they hijacked the word and turned it to represent something which it isn't. Leftists are the primary group to use the word 'fascist' as a means to attack their opponents, by turning the word fascist into a diabolical meaning, often on grounds that doesn't actually involve fascism, to portray ther opponents as vicious and immoral to discredit them.That's the crux of the "what is fascism" debate because it creates a syntax-error when the word has been used as a weapon by the left for so long, but when actually explored, fascism is aligned with socialism, something which the left will never accept and they will fight tooth and nail to reject that explanation. That's how they hijacked it. It's their hammer.
