The only real fact is that some Bronze Age Greeks really hated Troy. The rest is propaganda, divine fanfiction, and Achilles' toxic masculinity. We are taking a poem about a magical sea nymph's rage-baby as history? The real Trojan War was probably a boring trade dispute, not a decade-long siege over one guy's runaway wife.

>>17985793
>toxic masculinity

>>17985793
I find the fact that an "apple" played significant roles in both the trojan war and the garden of Eden interesting...

>>17986241
Yes, even within the Iliad it's quite an explicit theme. Just because it's described with a buzzword you've been programmed to fly off the handle over, doesn't change that.

>>17986266
But wasnt he kind of a role model? Everyone wanted to be achilles

>>17986267
What makes you think that?

>>17985793
It also preserves that Bronze Age Greeks had a state society, Mycenae was its single most important polity, and that they warred with Troy
a lot of it is mythical or reflecting Homer's own time though, he didn't get how chariots worked

>>17986267
Cautionary tales like achilles are wisdom to men and power fantasy to sociopaths.

>>17986269
Well he was played by Brad Pitt.

>>17985492
Thessalian pirates and raiders destroying Troy, and also Thebes, although that's a different poem ofc.

>>17986280
>he didn't get how chariots worked
To be fair that could be because he was blind. People also talk about it discussing color in weird ways but the dude who made it is said to have been blind P:

>>17986281
>Cautionary tales like achilles
If you read it knowing that Athena is the villain whispering Sith like advice to him it makes more sense. He should have gutted Menelaus right from the get go.

>>17986266
You will never be a woman.

>>17986269
Maybe because Alexander was a fanboy. And I'm a fanboy of Alexander, so that puts Achilles at the tippety top.

>>17985492
Thanks to phylogenetics, originally the Phoenicians plotted with Minoans/Pelasgians (who are now partly continued within Mycenaean Greeks and south Italians) and Sardinians (i.e. Nuragic civilization), who've remained the same as always with minimal admixture from other Europeans and Sicilians (who've received an increase in Greek proportions to their gene pool).

One leading hypothesis for their movements is the Sea Peoples hypothesis, which could also be referred to as the first conspiracy of pirates engaging in con-piracy, whereby these Sardinian, Lycian, Greek and Sicilian pirates in the 1200 BCE - 900 BCE period settled in the newly established Phoenicia under instruction by Ramses II.

The Ten Plagues of the Exodus are probably a telling of the eruption of Thera in 1600 BCE in the middle of Hyksos rule and it fucked them up not Rameses. Then they had to leave Egypt and some went by boat to the Aegean to join fraternal tribesmen in Mycenae. This is the tale of the Danaan. Mitanni get fucked by the Hittites from 1550-1450 when they are exiled. 1450 is right when Mycenae begins to rise.

So, added hypothesis: Mitanni exiles among other things collaborated with Mycenae to bring iron technology from Armenia (Cochis was the hub of Mitanni migration) to as many people as they could. The "Trojan" War was an opening strike against Hittite power, and the entire campaign was a generational war that culminated in the Sea Peoples invasion.

>>17986957
The evidence for the Sea Peoples invasions and subsequent settlement in Phoenicia come from Egyptian inscriptions and tablets by Ramesses II, Merneptah, Ramesses III and Onomasticon of Amenope.

The tribes that are identified for settling in Phoenicia in 1060 BCE are:

>Denyen
Danaan, Danaoi, Danuna, Danites, etc. Almost all sources indicate Greek/Mycenaean origin, though there is possibly association with the Adana people of Cilicia in Anatolia. The Bible suggests the Tribe of Dan (Phoenicians) settled in Greece and brought their alphabet with them, which is semi-plausible.

>Ekwesh
Akwash, Ahhiyawa, Achaoi, Achaeans, etc. Pretty much inarguably Greeks, but the evidence seems to suggest that at least some early Greeks practiced circumcision, which is hardly impossible but odd on such a scale.

>Peleset
Philistines. Sources attest that they were not native to Canaan/Palestine, but arrived there from the West, and their attendant visual depictions and descriptions suggest Greek origin, and they have been identified with the Pelasgians of Homeric literature, and the Bible claims they were Cretans/Minoans.

>Teres
Possible Trojans: one Hittite word for Troy was "Taruisa". Alternatively, possible Tyrsenians/Tyrrhenians, a non-Greek people from Italy, identified with Etruscans. Last possibility is the Tarsus in Anatolia.

>Tjeker
Teucri people, possibly descendants of the hero Teucer of the Trojan war who founded a settlement on Cyprus. Possibly "of Acco", a city belonging to the Israelite king Manessah.

>Weshesh
Likely Trojans, when associated with the Hittite name for Troy (which in Greek is Ilium -> Ilios-> Wilios) "Wilusa".

>>17986961
Troy itself traces its etymology for the Hittite name of the region where Wilusa/Ilion was, Taruisa, which in Greek became known as Troad or Troas, which is the thick peninsula on the Asian side of the Dardanelles. Alexander is attested in Hurrian/Hittite documents from the Bronze Age in the form "Alaksandu" (and was a ruler of Troy/Wilusa, so likely the namesake of the Iliad's Alexander/Paris).

>Shekelesh
Sikels, Sicani, Sikeloi, etc. Inhabitants or settlers of Sicily, Sicilians. Possible connection to Sagalassos in Pisidia in Anatolia. Bible suggests "Men of Sheker", Issachar, an Israelite chief.

>Sherden
Shardana, Sardina, etc. Possible sources of origin: Sardis in western Anatolia, Sardonians of western Anatolia, Nuragic peoples of the island of Sardinia west of Italy.

>Karkisa
Too little known, possibly Caria in Anatolia.

>Lukka
Lycians. Non-Hittite Anatolians.

Ramses II made a treaty and had some of them settle in Phoenicia. They splintered into two factions during the neo-Assyrian expansions. The two topographies were later on named Kingdoms of Judea/Judah and Israel. It's also likely that they were actually the refugees of the alleged Minoan empire that was finished off by large scale climate change brought on by a solar minimum.

>>17986964
The Hurrian/Hittite Empire was the result of the fusion between two different peoples. One was a people native to the region that inhabited Upper Mesopotamia for a long time and who spoke a language that was neither from the Indo-European nor Semitic linguistic family, such as Urartian, but which was from its own linguistic family, currently called hurro-urartian. Another was a people speaking an Indo-European language from the western region of the Iranian plateau, perhaps in the 18th or 17th century BC, but who, despite this, were more related to the people speaking the Indo-Aryan or Indic branch, of the north from India. The Harappan language is linked to Proto-Sumerian/Elamite because it was the BMAC that created IVC/Harappan Civilization (who was predominantly Iran_N/Neolithic Iranian, not AASI/Draviadians, most of them did not live in the North of India but in the South and were only conquered/assimilated centuries later). These people called themselves Haryani or Aryani - Aryans (both Iranians and those from northern India). These migrating Indo-European people conquered Upper Mesopotamia, becoming the rulers of that territory and forming a large part of the aristocracy.

The Sumerians said that the paradise of their gods was called Dilmun, which is Bahrain in the Persian Gulf. That's why the Phoenicians themselves traced their ancestry back to Bahrain, as reported by Herodotus, Strabo, and others. Babylon was founded by Amorites. Assyrian lists of kings record the name Hayanu for a "remote ancestor" of Shamshi-Adad I (c.1800 BC) of Assyria, Hayanu/Khyan being the Hyksos Pharaoh that Abraham met/was cucked when he handed over his wife Sarah to him saying she was his sister (she in fact was his half-sister):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyan#Origin_of_Khyan's_name

The Hyksos were Amorites/Canaanites that brought chariots to Egypt, practiced horse burial like the Indo-Europeans and had some pharaohs whose names have Hurrian/Hittite influence.

>>17986967
The 'Trojans' were most likely the Pelasgian Lydian or Carian-speaking inhabitants of the city-state of Wiluša (Hittite: 𒌷𒃾𒇻𒊭), a major Bronze Age settlement that existed in Western Anatolia in the territory of the Troad (Taruiša), part of the Assuwa confederation. Assuwa was in conflict with the Hittite Empire, attempting to maintain independence, but they were still culturally closer to the Hittites than to the Mycenaeans, speaking languages of the Anatolian IE branch. The names Wiluša and Truwiša would have been Hellenised as Ī́lios/Ī́lion and Troía. Assuwa is actually potentially the etymological source of 'Asia'.

Archaeologists associate Wiluša with the site at modern day Hisarlik known as Troy VII, which was destroyed around 1190 BC, which both aligns with the mythology and with what we know of the Late Bronze Age collapse. Around this time, the Hittite Empire and its hegemony over Anatolia collapsed, trade routes throughout the Near East and Mediterranean were interrupted, rising use of ironworking and the decline of the chariot affected balances of martial power, there were massive droughts, and there were massive invasions by the Sea Peoples and migrations of Dorians into Peninsular Greece (also called the Return of the Heracleidae). This conflict also saw the decline and splitting of the Mycenaean civilisation, and contributed to more sieges and expeditions by Mycenaean Greeks, including against the Anatolian kingdoms.

>>17986969
The Bronze Age palace economy of Mycenaean Greece also disintegrated, transforming into the small isolated village cultures of the Greek Dark Ages. As the Dark Ages became the Archaic Period around 800 BC, these fragmented cultures would have maintained the cultural and historical memory of the end of the Bronze Age via oral tradition and mythic storytelling so that, by the time of Homer in the 8th century BC, they would have been the stuff of legend.

Piyama-Radu of Wiluša (Lydian) = Priam of Troy

Ekoto of Wiluša (Lydian) = Hector

Alaksandu of Wiluša (Lydian) = Paris

The Achaeans were referred to by the Hittites as 'Ahhiyawa'.

Akamwinon of the Mukênai (Achaean) = Agamemnon

Mwinalahha = Menelaus

Oduze = Odysseus

Akireu = Achilles

All I'm gonna say is the war was probably a lot shorter than 10 years.

>>17985793
>>17987307
The Trojan war supposedly lasted a decade, that's not particularly outstanding. Most of it was spent raiding around Anatolia while waiting for the Greek forces to slowly gather. They only "sieged" Troy during that time in the sense that they held it in check to prevent the Trojan army from sallying forth to stop them as they sacked and pillaged the surrounding settlements.
By those standards the Ottomans sieged Constantinople for nearly a century.