Catholics lost all credibility with Pope Leo X. You heretics can't even pretend to be Christian anymore, much less that your Pope is the "Vicar of Christ."
>>17986475Hail Satan
>>17986475>patron of science and the arts, overseeing the creation of some of the most beautiful monuments ever created by human hands>NEIN NEIN NEIN! ZE BIBLE DOESNT SAY ZAT, IT IZ VERBOTEN!Luther was just a snownigger whose pagan shadow yearned to return to his ancestors mudhutts.
>>17986507Selling indulgences is pretty impossible to defend. They turned the whole religion into a grift.>inb4 "all religions are grifts"Even if that were true he went too far
>>17986475Christcucks never had any credibility desu.>>17986507>patron of science and the arts, overseeing the creation of some of the most beautiful monuments ever created by human handsRodrigo Borgia did this as well (even excomunicating Savonarola) and he is considered even worse. So the best popes are actually the worst. >Luther was just a snownigger whose pagan shadow yearned to return to his ancestors mudhutts.Except it was a Jewish shadow (which all christcucks have) that made him yearn to return to the first christcucks.
>>17986594>Jesus said its easier for a man to pass through a needles eye than for a rich man to go to heaven>take money from the rich to make it easier for them to go to heavenMakes sense to me
>>17986623If the Church itself becomes rich doesn't that mean it's inviting its own damnation?
>>17986636The church is an institution, not a person
>>17986475Reading about him it seems a pretty normal Pope.>>17986594>impossible to defend.Its just alms and also voluntary. Indulgences are connected to good deeds, alms are a good deed. Yet, since it gets easily associated with the sin of simony and can be abused, its better not to do it. People still contribute all the same, if the local church needs restoration work, people willingly do it.Luther's thesis did not put in question the concept of indulgence. Not that his opinion matters.
>>17986653An institution is comprised of individuals (who themselves got rich off indulgences)
>>17986594They still sell indulgences, ever heard of mass cards?
>>17986475>>17986594https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X>In Protestant circles, Leo is associated with granting indulgences for those who donated to reconstruct St. Peter's Basilica, a practice that was soon challenged by Martin Luther's 95 Theses.Protestants never mention St. Peter's Basilica. They always condemn the indulgences but they will NEVER EVER tell you what the indulgences were for.
>>17986783>Indulgences were fine because they were used to finance a mega-palace for the already ultra-wealthy And you're arguing that makes them less corrupt?
>>17986807It's just what Jesus would've wanted bro.
>>17986823Pretty sure Jesus started flipping tables when his fellow Rabbis commercialized his faith.
>>17986832It wasn't that there was trade going on there per se, it was that it was crooked money changers ripping people off on top of it being in the temple.
>>17986858How is selling indulgences not "ripping people off?" There's no scriptural basis for their implementation meaning the implicit assumption they help purchasers get into Heaven was nothing more than a scam.
>>17986863Because it isn't
>>17986873Wow you really changed my mind with that well-thought argument
>>17986807>donations for church restoration bad>seceding from the Church and stealing property to fill the royalty's coffers goodProtties have yet to come up with an answer as to why every major Protestant conversion in history was done entirely out of political and material reasons
>>17986783fun fact they originally wanted towers on it
>>17986924The Church shouldn't have tried to overexert its authority over political actors. It brought its schisms upon itself.
>>17986941>God uses Luther to cut funds so the retards in Rome cant afford to build shitty minarets around their churchHe truly works in mysterious ways.
>>17986977Why shouldn't the Church exert influence on the government?Are you some kind of atheist who wants the Church to be nothing more than a puppet for the government that gets to decide what's good and evil?
>>17986783>no no, you see we used all that stolen money to build a giant golden palace for the pope!LOL
>>17986883The money changers were intentionally shorting people and ripping them off. Verifiable. Can you verify indulgences wouldn't be valid? No? Then STFU
>>17986984no it was because they didnt build sufficient foundationsthey started to build it then the facade started to crack
>>17986475Pope Steven 6th...he actually dug up his pope rival and put his corpse on trial...lol now that's fucking metal
>>17986807St. Peter's Basilica is a church. Are you not even aware of basic history?
>>17986720>An institution is comprised of individualsBy that argument I'm a billionaire because I'm employed by a corporation with a 10 digits worth.
>>17986688The 95 Theses represented a woefully under-developed theology, though it is known Luther's breakthrough had preceded them. Martin Luther was God's fool and most of what he preached would be clearly refined in the following years as the Reformation ramped up and began, not all of it good. The true problem with the indulgence sale, which comes out in a few of the theses, is not that they were selling salvation (which would be egregious enough) but selling damnation in the form of a false gospel exchanged for money. For purgatory is nothing but a denial of the saving gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is the complete purgatory of the Christian. Some of the Theses:>Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.>Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.>We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.
>>17986924Because that's only true in your mind.
>>17987035>invent the concept of purgatory >tell people their dead relatives are suffering there but can be bailed out with cash https://www.cathedralchapel.org/mass-for-deceased>for only $20 (per mass) you can shave off time that your granny spends in purgatory If you don't think its a ripoff why aren't you sending the church money to save your dead family members from purgatory, the totally real place that exists?
>>17987084Open a book that isn't KJV bible sometime
>>17986995The Church should concern itself with supernatural affairs and leave politics to governments. Think of how many wars were needlessly fought over the Pope seething about a lack of control over the HRE and vice-versa.
>>17987133Thank you for admitting you're an atheist.A Christian knows there's no hard distinction between sacrum and profanum.
>Open a book that isn't KJV bible sometime
>>17987126Who says I'm not?
>>17987187Running a country and running a clergy simply requires different skills
>>17986594There is literally nothing wrong with indulgences. Money corrupts people. Therefore it is morally good and Christian to remove money from people. However, removing money from their pockets is hard (again, because it corrupts them with greed). Indulgences are the perfect method: they will gladly part with their money, they'll feel good about it, and the money can be used by the Church for charity or to build great monuments in the name of God.
>>17986636No, because the Church is guided by God and does good deeds with its wealth. Indeed, the Church is to this day the largest charity provider in the world and its works of sacred art, such as St. Peter's Basilica and the countless other beauitful churches in Italy, help create divine awe in people and push them closer to God or even convert.
>>17987422>>17987437>Wealth corrupts >Therefore the church should do everything possible to make its members as rich as possible
>>17987502By members I meant bureaucrats*
>>17987437Opulent houses of idols only push people away from God and into superstition or contempt
>>17987602Good thing there are no idols inside churches.
>>17987646Heresies aren't real
>>17987646Not in Christian ones no.
>>17986475>a non-Christian trying to tell us what a Christian is
>>17986475>LeoWhy does the name Leo make them sweat?
>>17987941Things always got a little too based whenever a Leo was in charge. Lets hope his holiness today can keep the tradition going.
>>17987308If we look at history and modern day politics running a county requires no skills.
>>17988077He's in dialog with James Martin. Ex cathedra LGBT affirmation soon
>>17988092There are only two cases of Ex Cathedra, and they were both used to say that the church is perfect. Lulz.Immaculate Conception (1854): Pope Pius IX declared that Mary (the church) was conceived free from original sin (Ineffabilis Deus).Assumption of Mary (1950): Pope Pius XII declared that Mary (the church) was assumed body and soul into heaven (Munificentissimus Deus).
>>17988817Both done by a Pope Pius, not a Leo. I think we are safe bros.
>>17986594>giving to charity is a grift
>>17986769No. Tell us about them.
>>17988840Johann Tetzel
>>17988838It's not charity if the expectation is that it'll allow you to buy one's way out of purgatory / get relatives out of purgatory - it's closer to giving into a hostage taker. Pure extortion.
>>17988853?
>>17988855Its not based on money anymore, but it still requires a payment of time and energy. But you dont need Mary to intercede for you. If you are a servent of christ, just do as he tells you. That advice comes directly from his mother.
>>17988866We're very clearly talking about a time when it *was* based on money considering this is a thread about Pope Leo X.
>>17988900>wasHow can mary repent if she is immaculately concieved, and is free from origional sin?
>>17988997Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. More "exegesis" (headcanon) invented by Catholics in the same vein as Purgatory to justify their many grifts.
>>17986498>Catholic tries to pretend to be Satanist to derail thread and make OP look anti-Christian Enjoy Hell
>>17988855>It's not charity if the expectation is that it'll allow you to buy one's way out of purgatoryThe communion of the saints is a notion upheld by every christian denomination (even the reformers didn't challenge it, they just said it shouldn't be a focus of devotion). It means that every good work of charity ultimately helps everyone, both on Earth and in heaven. So by doing corporal works of charity on Earth, like giving material support to the church, you can help the souls in purgatory.The catechism explains:>953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself." "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." "Charity does not insist on its own way." In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, *the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all.*
>>17990279Except purgatory has no Biblical basis and is a complete Catholic invention to wring money out of people who were already expected to pay tithes anyway. Most of your sects internal theology is derived entirely from greed.
>>17987685The bronze serpent only became an idol once it was worshiped as another god.
>>17990370I don't think it's fair to claim that it has *no bibilical basis* when we have both good and bad people interacting with the living, and with one another, from within Sheol. It presupposes that there is some kind of intermediary state prior to the eschaton, prior to Paradise and Gehenna, in which the dead, though disembodied, are still conscious.
>>17990614>there is likely an intermediate state after death>gib money pl0x to shorten it huehuehue
>>17990616The existence of Purgatory does not demand the creation and sale of indulgences.
>>17990618And yet...
>>17990279>every good work of charity ultimately helps everyone, both on Earth and in heaven.You have badly misunderstood the reformers if you think this is something they believed.>>17990614That's not the same thing as purgatory.
>>17991810>this state that is very much like Purgatory isn't Purgatory according to my hyper specific defintion that just so happens to support my ideology
>>17991938Abraham's Bosom was a compartment of Sheol which stored the righteous until the Lord brought them to heaven to which the righteous are now delivered since He opened the veil to the true tabernacle. It was not a place of torment or suffering of any kind, we are only told of the wicked suffering there.There is absolutely nothing in the bible about purgatory. The very concept is incompatible with the biblical gospel.
>>17986507Catlicks accusing protties of being pagans is a new one. As an actual pagan it never ceases amusing me to watch a collection of jew cults all accuse each other of being pagan. Reminds me of libcucks and republicunts both calling each other nazis over tiny little grievances
>>17991996We've got a bunch of obsessed browns that think christianity is inherently incompatible with living north of the alps. Of course its very likely that anon has never stepped foot in a church since his sister got married two years ago
>>17991994The Bible teaches that Christ descended into Hades and preached to the "formerly disobedient." No part of this indicates that He only saved the OT righteous through this or that only those living had the power to accept His message. Rather, we have every reason to believe and to hope that He offered salvation to the dead generally.
>>17991810nigga>The Augsburg Confession affirms that the saints "pray for the Church universal" in life and in heaven.>The Westminster Confession, which articulates the Reformed faith, teaches that the communion of saints includes those united to Christ – both the living and the dead.>Anglicans pray for the dead, "because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is.">In Methodist theology, "When we gather in worship, we praise God with believers we cannot see. When we celebrate Holy Communion, we feast with past, present and future disciples of Christ. We experience the communion of saints, the community of believers –– living and dead. This faith community stretches beyond space and time. We commune with Christians around the world, believers who came before us, and believers who will come after us. We believe that the church is the communion of saints, and as a believer, you belong to the communion of saints.">>17992317simple as. purgatory is the cleansing encounter with Jesus Christ (baptism of fire).
>>17987126I always pay for a requiem Mass at the date my grandma's died. I don't really know why I do it, she wasn't Catholic. I even told the priest as much as that. I just enjoy thinking about her.I'll also always add her name to be prayed at Mass, everyday I go. They always read.You're presenting it as it's a mandatory or there's no other options. This huge "rip off" is easily circumvented by the Plenary Indulgence granted during All Soul's Day. That's the problem with you fuckers, you'll cherrypick things meant to support the Church and claim those are the only ways to be saved, you'll say that Catholics are paying 20 dollars to save family from purgatory, when we can do that for FREE every year during the 8 days before and after All Soul's Day. It's not even on that exactly and only day, they even extend it to a two weeks thing. For free.
