>”Communism made Russia stronk”I want to break the skull of people who unironically say this, like seriously I'm so fucking tired of this narrative.Russia was a great power since Peter the Great, Russia took most of german losses in WW1, Russia was equal to Austria-Hungary in terms of contribution to sciense. Russia would industrialize without commies, it would just use French machines instead of American ones.
>>17994745> be me> sees this absolute state of this postStrong is when you go from peasant farmers to beating the Nazis and putting a satellite in space in 40 years. Cope and seethe, цapиcтъ. The Tsar Cuck was getting his cheeks clapped by Austria-Hungary and was about to lose to a country with a GDP smaller than Massachusetts. Your great power got its ass handed to it by Japan. They industrialized with the blood of millions, but they industrialized. Your French machines fantasy is pure copium.
>>17994754>killing millions of people was worth it to create a class of oligarchs ruling over a working class who moved from the fields to the citiesso... basically the same thing that would've happened had the whites won?
>>17994745>French machines.
>>17994774Whites would've sold Soviet Union to Hitler.No comparison.
>>17994754Russia was already poised to take over europe like their ancestors had time and time again during ancient times, the sedentary farmer fears the raving horserider. The west (and the japanese) knew this so they infected them with communism which stalled their ascension for a generation. Then they were used as cannon fodder to defeat the Nazis for the west, another competing geopolitical influence. Then after the war they were sanctioned to hell and back and eventually collapsed into their own footprint Today's incident with ukraine is basically russia ready to swoop into a weak feminist nigger worshiping europe and destroy them, and maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing
>>17994754GTFO with your Reddit-ass talking points commie. None of what you said has any basis in reality and is nothing more than debunked propaganda.
>>17994754Russia had to murder millions of its own people to achieve these things, where if it hadn't been communist it could have achieved them at a fraction of the human cost. And also without having to steal technology from nations that hadn't chased out every intelligent person decades ago.
>>17994782Since when russians were the raving horserides?
>>17994837> where if it hadn't been communist it could have achieved them at a fraction of the human costZero evidence of this.
>>17994840like 700 years ago
>>17994843Most of the soviet casualties in WW2 were due to soviet incompetence, not German efficacy in war. The Germans were competent, sure, but nobody else lost millions of men fighting them. Russians somehow manage to lose millions of men no matter who they fight. It's practically a national characteristic of them, and becoming communist made it even worse because generals were selected for loyalty rather than competence.
>>17994855Where is that idea that white government would be competent came from? They lost civil war for a reason, which was being out-of-touch nobles.
>>17994845
>>17994782>The west (and the japanese) knew this so they infected them with communism which stalled their ascension for a generation.The Soviet era was when Russia was its closest to parity with the west in its entire history.
>>17994843>From the 1890s to 1914, Russia experienced one of the fastest industrial growth rates in the world—annual industrial output rose by roughly 5–6% per year.Looks like there's plenty of proof actually. Without the commies they would've had more gradual, sustainable growth, instead of flushing everything except heavy industry down the toilet. Reminder that Stalin even with his millions of tractors could not restore Tsarist level of grain production. That's how inefficient the commie regime was to its core.
>>17994855>but nobody else lost millions of men fighting themBecause everyone else collapsed immediately as soon as they met German armies and didn't even have the time to mobilize millions. The British were saved solely because they're an Island. The Allies were able to land in Europe in 1943 and 1944 only because the overwhelming majority of Germans were fighting in the East. Even then, it took them two years to finally defeat Germany.
>>17994864Russia was already poised for this development through industrialization. Essentially what the west did was hamstring russia's industrialization by funding communists to tear the state down
>>17994860
>>17994745During WW1 Russian empire amassed a ridiculous international debt and had to spend like 1/5 of their budget on interests. How would they deal with it?And how would they deal with high degree of Russian productive capacity being owned by foreign capital?
>>17994782bait used to be believable
>>17994870>Russia was already poised for this development through industrialization.No, it wasn't. If you compare Russia with, let's say, the UK in term of GDP per capita, the UK consistently was 3x higher throughout the entire imperial era. They weren't closing the gap at all. Meanwhile, during the peak of the Soviet era, the UK was only 2x higher in GDP per capita, and progressively losing ground. Then some people in the USSR decided to dismantle the country and revert to capitalism, and since then the gap has widened again; the UK is at roughly 4x higher than Russia.
>>17994880I mean even if pushing communists into Russia wasn't overtly to slow down their industrialization it was in order to weaken Russia. The fact that we forced Germany into the jaws of conflict with communists almost purely over ideology is pretty tragic for the amount of lives lost
>>17994882The uk was the most industrialized country in the world until ~1890, meanwhile russia had just undergone land reform which the English had done 500 years before
>>17994882
>>17994867>>Reminder that Stalin even with his millions of tractors could not restore Tsarist level of grain production.Look up % of labour force employed in agriculture to find the answer. Stalin was clearly focusing on building up the industry ASAP. Even with miscalculation costing millions of lives, history has shown it to be a correct choice when compared to conservative, "sustainable" plans.>>17994882>Pre-WW1 economy>Socialistic economy>GDPGDP figures are nonsense in these cases. Even the guy who made up those numbers says they are basically just an educated guess.
>>17994889>>17994892https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)_per_capitahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capitaDo the math yourself with any countries you want and see for yourself.>>17994894Propose a better alternative then. I have an idea, how about industrial production? Here's some numbers.
>>17994899>Industrial output soared once the state was stable enough to feed its own peopleWow odd. Almost like the revolution was completely pointless and the stress they were feeling was external
>>17994903No, industrial output soared once Stalin started centralizing the country's wealth and investing it into creating factories, power plants, mines, infrastructure, etc. All things that capitalism in Russia was doing at a significantly slower rate.
>>17994909So shit that would have happened without a revolution?
>>17994899>Maddison ProjectYes, Maddison said that his numbers are just an educated guess.> Here's some numbers.Yes, those are good numbers.>>17994903You are forgetting certain major economic event occurred during these years. Without adapting an economic doctrine different from the rest of civilized world, Russia would follow general trend in global economy instead of soaring.
>>17994910Capitalism would go away on its own?
>>17994914Capitalism isn't real. I assure you putting a mountain gangster in control of the economy wasn't some secret to success
>>17994910Again, it wasn't happening. Russia was growing, but at a significantly slower rate. Keep in mind also that Stalin was doing this during the great depression. It's more likely that a Russian economy would have have just crashed during this period, like in the rest of Europe, instead of booming like it did under Stalin.
>>17994914Yes, instead of revolution there could've been a democratic transition to socialism.
>>17994918>privatization of resources isn't realWhat?
>>17994919Industrialization is a catalyst. The longer you put it off the higher your immediate rise but also the quicker your collapse. It's not something conscious
> https://www.nber.org/papers/w19425On no no no no, stalinbros. Turn out people died for nothing.
>>17994924Again, it wasn't just an immediate, temporary boost. The gap was closing throughout the whole 20th century between the west and the USSR, until Gorbachev destroyed the country.
>>17994923>Everything is about resourcesThat's not capitalism
>>17994920>instead of revolution there could've been a democratic transition to socialism.And who was going to do that?
>>17994929The globalization of the economy under birthmark was probably a conscious realization that Russia couldn't maintain a manufacturing economy without forcing immense poverty in its people like China does
>>17994930>That's not capitalismThen what is?
>>17994931Duma. Socielist parties were strong.
>>17994938Like I said. Capitalism doesn't exist. What marx called capitalism was actually western geopolitical power
>>17994929>until Gorbachev destroyed the country.Do gommies really?
>>17994941Duma was full of kulak scum that didnt want to change the status quo
>>17994925>16% positive welfare after 1941>Alongside humongous growth in heavy industry, military industry and army size>Under heavy economic sanctions during 1917-1928Sounds based, tbeh
>>17994963Name a single kulak in Duma. You can't.
>>17994745>Russia would industrialize without commiesYou need somewhat skilled workers to make industrialization happen so you gotta give people education and those skilled workers will have to live in cities with will elevate their culture more And in Russian empire, teaching a peasant how to do anything other than cultivating potatos was considered to be a heresy, the biggest crime aganist Russia and God since it could give them ideas to rebel aganist the natural order
>>17994894>history has shown it to be a correct choicelmao no. Russia to this day is poor and can only build tanks, all cars and washing machines need to be imported. They have the commies to thank for that.
>>17994970Wrong. We are much richer than Africa for example. Where is this myth that Russia is poor comes from? Is it because people do not consider oil, gas, and precious metals as wealth?
>>17994969You don't need shit to make industrialization happen. What happens first is your agriculture economy collapses so you have a bunch of cheap labor then you put tariffs on imported manufactured goods (which further accelerates agricultural collapse) then anybody with money starts buying machines to open their own factories and hire all the newly unemployed farmers to pull levers
>>17994970>Russia to this day isI know you hate this fact, but that's all that matters.
>>17994973>We are much richer than Africa for exampleI hope you are joking here. Comparing yourself to literally the worst places of the world is a really low bar.
>>17994949>What marx called capitalism was actually western geopolitical power>t. never read marx
>>17994991Marx is a clever liar. He saw the social turmoil caused by the collapse of agriculture created by industrialization.
>>17994994He also saw the exploitation and widening social gap created by it
>>17995004So what he thinks he discovered speculation? Then names it capitalism
>>17994970The only reason Russia is as "strong" as it is because of their vast amounts of land and natural resources. Take asian part of Russia away and you're left with a significantly weaker shithole with barely any resources to speak of.
>>17995006Capitalism was basically the exploitation that arose from the social changes that you described.
>>17995019Right exploitation didn't exist before Marx was born>But historical materialism Self falsifying ideology
>>17994754>Strong is when you go from peasant farmersto starving peasant under communist rule>putting a satellite in space in 40 yearsAnd astronautics was already pioneered by Russian Empire>was getting his cheeks clapped by Austria-HungaryRussia literally domineered over Austria and Ottomans during the whole war, the only challenge it had with GermanyIn conclusion communists can only lie and cheat
>>17994969>And in Russian empire, teaching a peasant how to do anything other than cultivating potatos was considered to be a heresyWhy communist are such a liars? Russian Empire already had growing class of skilled workers and literacy rate increasing rapidly (in 1913 it was around 70% of population)
>>17995145This is not accurate. The literacy rate in the Russian Empire in 1913 was much lower.Estimates from historians and official Tsarist data suggest:Literacy in 1913 was around 30% of the total population.Among adult men, especially in urban areas, literacy could be higher (up to ~50%), but still well below 70%.Among women and the rural population, literacy was often under 20%.For example:According to the 1897 Imperial Census:Only 21% of the population could read and write.By 1914, literacy had improved but still:Overall rate was around 30–35%, depending on the region.Some urban centers had higher literacy, but the vast rural majority remained illiterate.
>>17995159Communists just continued the literacy programs of the tsarist regime, there was no revolution there.
>>17995159>Only 21% of the population could read and write.In 1893 literacy among conscripted men (i.e. young men and the only group of population that matterd) was 35,7%. In 1913 it was 67,8% (almost 70%). What leftist do is mudding all this statistic with old farts (that don't even need literacy), toddlers and women. It also shows how dishonest soviet literacy campain was when they forced like 80 y/o women to learn to read (even though they could've perfectly live the rest of their life without it) so their statistics could've been grander, while in fact almost all men born on the turn of the century was already literate.
>>17995247typical commie number fuckery
>>17994754
>>17994745Russia was a backwards hellhole that existed solely to steal money from peasants do the tsars family could live wellThe USSR was the worlds 2nd superpower with global influence and people who could actually read it go to a hospital if needed
>>17995344>backwardsInvented radio, television, tractors etc>hellhole Had more liberties than Soviet Union and many modern countries>the tsars family could live wellThe Tsar's family was humble, most of their expenses were for upkeep of their property and salaries for stuff>The USSR was the worlds 2nd superpower with global influence and people who could actually read it go to a hospital if neededAnd starve to death in millions, and rot in camps in millions, and tortured and shot in hundreds of thousands
>>17995247>source: official tsarist data>uhh commies manipulate shitlol what a copei have commies but they were better at this than germanboo tsars
>>17995534>According to the 1897 Imperial Census:Again you don't even have a fresh data that shows the result of increased spending on education during Nicholas 2 rule (thousands of schools were built each year of his reign) as well as rapid population growth that occured at that time in Russia. By the end of Empire population was young and literate and commies have nothing to do with that.>i have commiesYou sure do
>>17994754Russia failed miserably in Operation Barbarossa due to Communist mismanagement. A Russian Empire that didn't get involved in WW1 would have eventually become the superpower of Europe by demography alone.
>>17994894>with miscalculation costing millions of lives>"Better" than a sustainable aka economic economy.Such a moral, ethical and grounded theory on economics, legal theory and morals lol Should be easy to rob and murder other people instead of "sustaining" them for their work for your "industry" and then beg the americans for fuel and food to not be assraped by the second worst economy of your time period banging on Ukraine. Maybe if Russia tried economic, legal and moral principles that are actually real and logical they wouldn't have to deal with 90% of the shit the commies "dealt" with
>>17994973>"We are richer than niggers">His country is geographically equivalent to the USA with a 700 year head start>Even with the rockies analouge and a Mississippi analouge, down to even those being not of the nations core but later acquisitions with minorities and foreign entanglements>natural resources out the ass>White or white adjacent people>Country operates on almost religious fervour for their founding ideologyGrim, the new soviet abonimation is on par if not even worse than the most abhorrent amerimutt
>>17994914No because there is no reason for capitalism to go away. Marxism is a sham
>>17994781>Whites would've sold Soviet Union to Hitler.erm...
>>17996040>>His country is geographically equivalent to the USAMost retarded statement in this thread to be honest
>>17994914Yes, we see it now with people trying to get AI to do all the jobs. If successful, capitalism would cause another great depression and go extinct, since machines doing everything, means no more capital, so no profit for shareholkers and so on.
>>17997306Cope harder, the federal experiment failed less than the soviet experiment.By a long fucking way to be precise
>>17997687That's because U.S. had no enemies. We russians always fought everyone because eveyone tried to conquer us.
>be Soviet regime>INDUSTRIALIZE>kill millions just to INDUSTRIALIZE>have worse agricultural output than the "primitive" Empire>no face when
>>17997692Spain / Britain and Mexico / CanadaUs enemies had vast empires behind them with even the conquest of the entire continent just meaning more ports to defend while Russia could literally invade their enemies and just eradicate their states on the main continent
There is no Russia without the Orthodox Church and the soviets banned it, after which created a puppet state one which continues to this day. Yes, the russian state was connected to the state also in tsarist times but that was based on the byzantine symphonia of church and state and not on this anti-christ communist subversion.
>>17997827like this was the opinion of russian orthodox diaspora when Stalin opened his own puppet church lol>The Christ-loving Leader of the German people called on his victorious army to a new struggle, to that struggle that we have long been longing for — to the consecrated struggle against the theomachists, executioners and rapists who have settled in the Moscow Kremlin [...] A new crusade has truly begun in the name of saving peoples from the power of Antichrist [...] Finally our faith is justified! [...] Therefore, as the First Hierarch of the Orthodox Church in Germany, I appeal to you. Be participants in a new struggle, for this struggle is your struggle; this is a continuation of the struggle that was begun as early as 1917 — but alas!Metropolitan Seraphim Lade of ROCOR on Adolf Hitler
>>17997687>completely ignores the topic of geography that he himself startedAbsolutely dishonest nigger
>>17997827>but that was based on the byzantine symphoniaThis is churchman's copium. In fact, the tsarist government bent the Russian Orthodox church over as it wanted and no one asked the opinions of its hierarchs, as when Catherine secularized church lands and imprisoned the main opponent of secularization, where he died. So, essentially, Stalin just returned to the old status quo, which comes as no surprise, considering his church background.
They did experiment with free market entrepreneurship for decades before the reds and failed hard
>>17999007>and failed hardRussia had fastest growing economy in the world before WWI. But of course commies rate their success at the amount of people they murdered.
