>>17997377
Youth is hating Jacob for what he did. Adulthood is realizing that everyone in this story is a piece of shit.

>>17997447
That's most characters in the Bible desu

>>17997377
God loves Jacob and chose him from before birth. When their mom was pregnant God told her that the older will serve the younger.

The blessing was always meant for Jacob, regardless of what Isaac wanted. God does whatever he wants.

>>17997455
God is literally just playing wojaks with us

If he humbled himself and accepted his lot on life. He'd be fine.

this is why jews (jacob's descendent s) are god's chosen people btw, according to their own scripture

>>17997377
If he wanted a blessing he shouldn't have sold it to his brother for some basic bitch soup that didn't even have any meat.

>>17997377
Jacob is not a good man, and the Bible doesn't really portray him as one.
He isn't a moral leader to follow like Moses, he's a 'great man' but not a good one.

>>17997455
>God does whatever he wants.
The problem with this rhetoric is, why then would I give a fuck about god?
If he's just going to be so arbitrary he can neither threaten nor buy me.
It's very self-undermining, as far as wisdom tales go.

>>17998015
In as much as human history is concerned, Edom was always destined to serve Israel. But we cannot conclude from this that God somehow forced Esau to show contempt for his own birthright.

God does not deal with people arbitrarily. Whilst God is entitled to do as He wishes ontologically speaking, God has nevertheless chosen to make certain promises and to give mankind certain assurances. He has guaranteed His mercy to all those who trust in Him, as opposed to those who are simply the strongest, the bravest, the smartest or the most zealous in their keeping of the law.

>>17998788
*inasmuch as

>>17997377
It's because Jewish religion is just having some arbitery rules that you look at and go lawyer mode and find some loop holes. It is same in Christianity to some extent, just look at some of the old practices, during fasting you are allowed to eat fish, but because a beaver spends time in water it's a fish so you can eat it. If you commit a sin you can confess it and all is forgiven. And don't forget indulgences, so all in all a lot of religious leaders will twist your beliefs into something that benefits them.

>>17998788
>Edom was always destined to serve Israel
This alone makes my argument.
The moment god predestines a bad outcome, is the moment he becomes an overpowered brigand.
>He has guaranteed His mercy to all those who trust in Him
Contradicts the top line.

>>17998894
>It's because Jewish religion is just having some arbitery rules that you look at and go lawyer mode and find some loop holes
That's all religions actually. Judaism is only peculiar in that they brlieve they can scam an omnipotent, omniscient god rather than whatever limited spirit would get scammed in other religions.

>>17998901
Christians don't operate using normal morality. This is because they have been beaten into an emotionally abusive position like a helpless slave, and they internalize the feeling and compose their theology to justify what happened to them. Compare that to a normal human when shown an example of unfairness. To a normal person with human-level sense of self, these morality plays trigger an emotional indignation similar to any hypothetical depicting unfairness. Indeed, the unconscious underlying basis for all further human morality principles, all the esoteric sandcastles of ethics originates from this emotional reaction to unfairness. But what we consistently observe in the rhetoric of the religious types is their moral logic is shackled to their powerlessness. They compose this imaginary structure of power where God is this invincible authority who has the perfect right to do whatever he wants. It's a slave mentality. If you point this out they get afraid of daddy finding out and beating them so they try to argue that you are a bad boy for not groveling like they do.

>>17997455
That's not compatible with modern views about equal rights.

>>17997859
That was just a joke.

>>17999036
maybe

>>17997455

"Does whatever he wants" is admission of randomness in the world, rather than "Divine Provenance". You just forever disproved your own god, you dumb Jew. LOL!

We randomly worship Randomness for random "reasons".

>>17998000
Moses was a cop killer, liar and genocider. Are those what made him a "good man", or banging all the black, African local "foreign brides" he and Solomon could never get enough of ;)

Moshe was a beta-cuck loser that got suckered into doing all the leg work, while getting none of the rewards. SUCKA!

>>17998894
The Beavers = Fish is one of the all-time greatest lines of religious bullshit ever. I mean, it's not even fucking close to being remotely true in any way.....just like the Bible.

Your mother has a fishy beaver.

>>17998901
Yeah, the problem with "Destiny" is that even in his own book, he gets his own pre-destined people, places and things wrong. Besides, if it's all pre-destined, there's no need in playing all of this out in the first place.

yhwh loses again, just like he did to those iron chariots.

>>17998901
>The moment god predestines a bad outcome
Why do you think that's necessarily a bad outcome? Service isn't always slavery.
>>17999036
See above.
>>17999136
>Besides, if it's all pre-destined, there's no need in playing all of this out in the first place.
The world as is, and its events, are for the edification of the fallen. God is not a scientist; He is not conducting an experiment.

>>17998015
>why then would I give a fuck about god?
Because whatever he wants always turns out to be the best because he knows everything and can see the end from the beginning. He has all the cards on the table, the minds of all the beings in existence are open and exposed to him and he sits in his lofty throne observing everything from the highest place in the universe.

Doesn't matter what your instincts or own wisdom and experience tells you, always do what God says. Choose God's ways over your own intelligence. His ways are way higher than yours. Incredible and legendary billion years old beings who make the children of heaven tremble all worship at his feet and are like a child before him.

>>17997377
>>the narrative somehow portrays YOU as the villain of this story
Esau is portrayed as the villain? Where? He is portrayed as dangerous, as many OT characters, but I don't see that the text judges him or his character as villainous.

>>17999668
I'm honestly curious about your age and ethnicity and education level to post something like this.

File: 1757256561736133.jpg (28 KB, 537x497)

28 KB JPG

>be God
>roll the dice (give humanity free will and let them choose things)
>whisper to the dice that youre gonna send them to fucking hell if they dont land the right way, as they roll
kinda based i guess

>>17999703
>I have so little self-control it's basically a dice roll
Been there, brother. It gets better.

>>17999642
>Why do you think that's necessarily a bad outcome?
The implicit disparity is inherently a humiliation, and therefore bad.
The explicit references to said service as a reward to the chosen ones also imply that I'm getting the worse end of the deal.
Further, if it's not a bad outcome, why bother with active subversion to achieve it? He'd have no reason to predestine it.

Reminder Isaac married his wife when she was only 3 years old.

>>17999668
>Because whatever he wants always turns out to be the best because he knows everything and can see the end from the beginning.
There are not one, not two, but three obvious and destructive counters to this argument:
1. he's omnipotent, which means he decides what counts as the best result, no matter how we'd perceive it.
2. he's omnipotent, therefore he could achieve any aim by any method, yet he chose one that requires arbitrary uneven treatment
3. he's omnipotent, and perfectly able to make me in such a way that I would be overjoyed to experience my destiny, yet he chose to make it a source of humiliation and suffering
Don't bother climbing mirrors anon. Theologians have fought for thousands of years to justify this shit, and the only reasonable conclusion is that god as described by jews is actively evil, sadistic, and unreliable, in no way different than the average ancient god needing to be placated.

>>17999737
NTA what you classify as destructive nuclear ultra-counters 5000 barely register as counters at all...
>1. he's omnipotent, which means he decides what counts as the best result, no matter how we'd perceive it.
The Anon was telling you that God knows better and you merely confirmed it.
>2. he's omnipotent, therefore he could achieve any aim by any method, yet he chose one that requires arbitrary uneven treatment
Correct, a method was selected. Your judgement of a method that you never fully inspected cannot be destructive.
>3. he's omnipotent, and perfectly able to make me in such a way that I would be overjoyed to experience my destiny, yet he chose to make it a source of humiliation and suffering
Correct, circumstances were selected. How you feel about them is perhaps the least destructive line of argumentation possible.

Theologians have "fought" far harsher battles for thousands of years. This is barely on the radar at all.

>>17999737
>he's omnipotent... So let me explain why he's wrong and I'm right. Me, the mere work of his hands.

>>17999793
>he's omnipotent and responsible for literally everything
>he makes one of his creations suffer through allegedly mistaken beliefs of his evil character
It directly follows that he's acting maliciously on purpose and without excuses of need or plans.
That he literally created us for no other reason than to experience our sufference.

>>17999789
>The Anon was telling you that God knows better and you merely confirmed it.
God knows better in the sense that his omnipotence allows him to be omnibenevolent while committing absolute evil, yes.
>Correct, a method was selected. Your judgement of a method that you never fully inspected cannot be destructive.
Why would I need to fully inspect it? I know it harms me and I know that his omnipotence implies no plan of his would *require* that. Only *prefer* that.
>Correct, circumstances were selected. How you feel about them is perhaps the least destructive line of argumentation possible.
Lmao you can't even keep up with the argument. You just stated that how I feel doesn't matter in regard to how I feel.

most of the old testament is just everyone being horrible to each other and God is like
me dammit you fucking ingrates start over *destroys everything*

>>17999828
>God knows better in the sense that his omnipotence allows him to be omnibenevolent while committing absolute evil, yes.
Evil according to...
>Why would I need to fully inspect it?
Because you're judging it. Judgement without proper inspection is invalid.
>You just stated that how I feel doesn't matter in regard to how I feel.
How you feel matters a great deal to how you feel. It's just not a "destructive counter".

>>17997377

Folks ignore the fact that it was solely Jacob's mom who was the main reason behind all of this buffoonery, but people mainly name Jacob as being the mastermind trickster of it. Jacob was just minding his own business before being dragged into this.

Genesis 27:5-6
>[5]While Isaac was talking to Esau, Rebecca was listening. So when Esau went out to hunt,
>[6]she said to Jacob, “I have just heard your father say to Esau,

God still ended up honoring Esau later on. He didn't really lose out on the blessing.

Genesis 33:1-4,11
>[1]Jacob saw Esau coming with his 400 men, so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel, and the two concubines.

>[2]He put the concubines and their children first, then Leah and her children, and finally Rachel and Joseph at the rear.

>[3]Jacob went ahead of them and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.

>[4]But Esau ran to meet him, threw his arms round him, and kissed him. They were both crying.

>[11]Please accept this gift which I have brought for you; God has been kind to me and given me everything I need.” Jacob kept on urging him until he accepted.

>>17999828
If you were humble you would realize that if you disagree with the literally Almighty King of the Universe and creator of all things, then it clearly must be that you are wrong and missing something and not that he could in any way be the one who is mistaken.

You accuse him because of suffering but never praise him for pleasure. You take every single delicious bite of food you have ever eaten in the decades you've been alive along with the countless other pleasures, joys and satisfactions that you enjoy every day for granted.

Never thank him for any of it but surely love to bill him for every slight discomfort you've had to suffer in your life.

Shall someone like you then he given more? Shall you then be allowed to enter the holy place and enjoy of the pure and sacred pleasures God has reserved for those who love him?

Surely not. Appreciate all God already does for you and then he will give you so much more.

>>17997455
>the older will serve the younger
>Israel never conquered Edom
>Herodians were Edomites who ruled over Israel

Wjat confuses me about Judaism is its apparent laws about firstborns outranking their younger siblings and getting twice what their brothers get but almost every notable group of siblings the younger siblings end up being put above the elders.
>Abel preferred above Cain
>Isaac above Ishmael
>Jacob above Esau
>Joseph above Reuban
>Kohens come from Aaron instead of Moses for some reason
>David was a younger son

>>17999925
>but surely love to bill him for every slight discomfort you've had to suffer in your life.

They mostly bring it on themselves. They ignore the fact that sin = negative consequences. But they sin anyway. How can they know which kinds of actions have negative consequences if they never study their bible.

Jeremiah 2:19
>Your own evil will discipline you; your own apostasies will reprimand you. Consider and realize how evil and bitter it is for you to forsake the LORD your God and to have no fear of Me,” declares the Lord GOD of Hosts. It's why God always says He's near to the broken hearted, willing to restore all that was lost. Some people's sinful actions truly mess their own life up. To the point of brokenness and depression, misery, etc.

>>17999966

Crap. I forgot to seperate my comment from that verse.

>Jeremiah 2:19
>>Your own evil will discipline you; your own apostasies will reprimand you. Consider and realize how evil and bitter it is for you to forsake the LORD your God and to have no fear of Me,” declares the Lord GOD of Hosts.

It's why God always says He's near to the broken hearted, willing to restore all that was lost. Some people's sinful actions truly mess their own life up. To the point of brokenness and depression, misery, etc.**

>>17999893
>Evil according to...
Funnily enough, him.
He's the omnipotent creator, so my idea that he is evil comes directly from him.
>Because you're judging it. Judgement without proper inspection is invalid.
But it still only needs one strike to fulfill the requirements for the judgment I gave it. One strike that is already known.
Nothing else about it would change the judgement, so why does the rest matter?
>How you feel matters a great deal to how you feel
Which is the whole point of the argument you were answering to. That's why I wrote you can't keep up.
If you can't counter what I feel you have no argument, when the whole point is how god's actions make me feel.

>>17999925
>If you were humble you would realize that if you disagree with the literally Almighty King of the Universe and creator of all things, then it clearly must be that you are wrong and missing something and not that he could in any way be the one who is mistaken.
Lmao. He made me the way I am, if you take issue with me, you take issue with him.
He wanted me to be like I am, he wants me to complain about him. He's enough of a sadist to give me the clarity to mock your blind faith, so that your humiliation will be all the greater for brokenly loving your abuser.

>>17999935
The whole old testament reads like revenge porn anon.
Are you really surprised that it's full of instances were the weakling younger brother gets godded ahead of his "bully" elder brother?

>>18000563
>Lmao. He made me the way I am, if you take issue with me, you take issue with him.
>He wanted me to be like I am, he wants me to complain about him. He's enough of a sadist to give me the clarity to mock your blind faith, so that your humiliation will be all the greater for brokenly loving your abuser.

You're basically pouring gas all over your self and lighting a match. And laughing as if I'm the one on fire. You're the one who won't be let into paradise.

The LORD God created sex, titties, fun and pleasure, joy, laughter, love and happiness. He is a master creator and is incredibly generous. He really knows how to create wonderful things that satisfy the soul. In the new age that's coming he will create things a hundred times greater than anything we can enjoy on earth and those who are welcomed in will enjoy them forever.

>>17999935
I'm probably wrong but I think the eldest son is dignified in its laws because of the verse Exodus 22:29
> “You shall not delay to offer from the fullness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to me."
AFAIK the eldest son was/is taught and trained in the Torah and the Wisdom of the Kabbalah.
Although I also heard that the original verse meant that the firstborn was to be sacrificed to YHWH (via moloch) to ensure fertility and good boons for the next children.

>>17997859
This. God looks at character and desire, not petty law.

>>17999642
>The world as is, and its events, are for the edification of the fallen. God is not a scientist; He is not conducting an experiment.


Prove it.

>>17999735
I thought the rule was "three years and a day"?

>>17997377
Imo, many Old Testament stories sound like ancient propaganda more than anything else.
>Meany edomites actually lost all their rights to us and are doomed to be our slaves forever
>David is the greatest and the king he supplanted was jealous and wicked and mediocre
>These two rival ethnic groups are actually the result of two women Raping their father.
>Etc.
In my view, most of the historical books are just Davidic dynasty propaganda.

>>18000716
>You're the one who won't be let into paradise.
He made me like this. Which means he never had any intentions of letting me in, and he made me explicitely to send me to hell, fully aware of his evil.
You can hope you'll be treated any different, but in your heart you'll always know that if he's such a sadist to me, he'd likely enjoy your face when you get to him after a lifetime of devotion and he just tells you there's nothing but hell for everyone.
You already knew it before this discussion, that's why you can do nothing but threaten me with consequences rather than address my claims: your faith's whole foundation is that there will be a reward, no matter how delusional the whole business is.

>>17999692
more like you're dataminig

>>18001372
He made you with the ability to turn to good, but of course it requires humbling down but you're hardened your heart with pride. You've done this to yourself in your own.

>>18001408
>he made you such that you could turn to good if you accepted humiliation, but he also made you proud
So you're saying I should thank him for not making me a bitch like you, while acknowledging he made me in such a way incompatible with his dubious promise of salvation, which makes him responsible for my behaviour?

>>18001454
He didn't make you proud. You filled yourself with pride all on your own. If you couldn't change he wouldn't bother asking you to. You take yourself too seriously and him not seriously enough.

>>17999925
I have more than you and I don't believe in God. I don't blame him for any hardship or thank him for any goodness.

Genesis itself doesnt portray Esau negatively, hes a relatable character. He only gets interepreted negatively with time after his children the Edomites betray the judahites and team up with babylon during the babylonian conquest. Any book written after that even hates Edomites and by extension Esau. You can date books in the old testament to pre or post 6th century depending on their bias towards Edom.

>>18001492
>You filled yourself with pride all on your own.
How could that be, when all I am and all that surrounds me comes from him? Pride itself is his creation, it is his explicit will for me to be proud.
There is no way for you to absolve god from his responsibilities. By acknowledging him as an omnipotent creator, you've made him omniresponsible.
His own theology forces any rational thinker (which is what he made us) to realize that not only he's malicious, but he wants us to consider him such, since he created both the concept of malice and our ability to grasp and apply it to him.

>>18001607
He created you, you turn evil, did harm to others, hurt others, hated others.

You say God is responsible for me.

God will say, you're right, I'm responsible for the existence of this evil man so I will take responsibility by getting rid of him. I will throw him into the fire until he is consumed and I will compensate all of his victims for their suffering with great rewards.

>>18001679
You're an extremely stupid person. You're not actually making any points, you're just blathering and asserting your religious fantasies.
The earth isn't 6000 years old and Adam and Eve didn't exist.

>>18001695
You will be judged regardless. Be smart and fear God. Evil people don't fare well in the presence of God. You will rather be a child rapist in prison max than to be an evil man in the presence of the Most High.

>>18001725
No, I won't. We've disproved Judaism and christianity and islam. You're going to die and you will never go to heaven and never be rewarded outside of this life.
Notice you did exactly what I said. You have to actually prove your position and not just assert it.

>>18001733
Meanwhile I have interactions with spirits and angels of God every day. It's not that I think God exists, I know it for a fact.

You will be judged by the most beautiful yet terrifying being in the universe and it will not be a fun time for you. All you have done will be made public, nothing will be kept secret.

>>18001679
>you turn evil
How? What about my composition allows me to turn evil, if not the way god made me?
Why did I decide to turn evil, if not in response to my experiences?
How do I even KNOW what evil is? How do I even manage to practice it?
You know why. God is why. He's the sole responsible for all evil, twice over: by making it when he didn't need to, and by ensuring we know both what it is and that he wants it to be.
>I'm responsible for the existence of this evil man so I will take responsibility by getting rid of him
You think this is some kind of gotcha, but you basically just admit that I'm right.
If a perfect god is responsible for the creation of evil, and agrees (by removing me) that evil shouldn't take place, it means he knowingly, willingly, acted maliciously towards anyone I harmed. And me, since he's removing me.

>>18001930
Do you think that in the day of judgement God will not find men who lived similar experiences than you and went through even worse traumas than you and were more disadvantaged than you and yet still turned away from their evil and pleased God?

You really really think you will be able to stand before the Most High and argue yourself right and him wrong in front of the whole universe? That you have an argument that the most Ancient being in existence who had access to all thoughts from all minds have never heard before?

Be humble enough to accept that if you disagree with your creator then you clearly are the one who most be wrong. You're not smarter or gooder than God.

God created you with the capacity to chose good or bad. There are people who lived suffering lives and chose good and there are those who lived privileged lives and chose evil. Your upbringing is not justification of persisting in evil. It may excuse it while you're ignorant of your evil but once you've been made aware that you're doing evil you no longer have an excuse for willingly persisting in evil and not putting great effort into being righteous instead.

Dude really thinks he can outsmart the one who is aware of every though he's ever had.

>>18001951
>You really really think you will be able to stand before the Most High and argue
Did you really manage to read every single one of my posts and come away with the idea that I'm making excuses that will save me on judgement day?
That is genuine wilful blindness, nobody can be that stupid and still be literate.
>God created you with the capacity to chose
If that were true he wouldn't be omniscient, therefore omnipotent, therefore divine. God created me as I am, and if I am bad it's because he wanted me to be bad.
If other people had it worse than me, and still turned to him, that does nothing but prove that he doesn't give a fuck about your choices. He just wants people to suffer.

>>17999042
>it was just a prank bro
Play stupid games win stupid prizes. Sorry no refunds.

>>18001974
>free will doesn't exist
Why do you retards always argue as if Calvinism and predestination is true?

>>18001974
You will beg to be saved, you just don't realize it yet. You drool over a pair of tits and think you will see the one who created them, and not immediately fall in love and regret with every fiber if your being not turning to him.

>If that were true he wouldn't be omniscient, therefore omnipotent, therefore divine

Please explain in detail how God being all knowing and all powerful prevents him from allowing you to choose your path.

If other people suffered like you and did not do evil then you are proven wrong that you had no choice. To had a choice, yo chose the wrong one.

>>18002004
>>18002009
Being all knowing implies full awareness of every consequence of every choice he made in creating us.
There's no testing, there's no need for evil. There's just god's knowing choices.
You could argue that in being omnipotent he can be omniscient and completely ignorant at the same time, but that's just wilful blindness.
You might then argue that he could be wilfully blind without bearing responsibility for it, but then why do I perceive his evil?
Although he could unmake both the evilness of his behaviour and my perception of it, he chooses not to. Clearly he approves of both.
>If other people suffered like you
Nobody suffered like me. Many suffered more. Many suffered less. Many suffered just as much. But not like me, because they are neither me nor in my shoes.
You can close your eyes and pretend free will exists all you like, it won't change anything. You'll still do nothing but react to stimuli for the entirety of your existence.

>>17997377
>God for some reason does not give a shit and just rewards the wrong guy with blessings
The blessing is not God's blessing, it's Isaac's. They believed that blessings and curses uttered by people had actual power. Why else do you think cursing your parents is punishable by death in the Torah? It wasn't just a matter of disrespect, it was equivalent to an attack.

>>17997451
well they're all jews so...

>>17997377
>Sells the next closest thing to his soul for a boul of soup
>Wonders why he isn't entrusted quite so fully with the future of God's creation
Everyone in this story is nasty but the point is that God was working to bring about a better future from the broken humanity you see here and today, with the very same humans who caused that brokenness. The point is to show how many reasons he had to restart and how futile and petty humans when it came to self-improvement, as compared to his faithfulness through generations and potency of word and deed.

>>17999925
>Almighty King of the Universe and creator of all things
which one? There are dozens.

>>18002972
The one who will send you to hell.

>>18002296
Yeah yeah, that's what they all say. To hell with you wicked fuck.

>>18000956
Yeah there is a big section of the book thats just the Davidic royal family's propaganda that justifies divine kingship. After the exile, the radicalized priest caste (Deuteronomists) also adds their own ideology and changed the Bible in different ways.
The Bible itself is written over centuries by different factions and groups of people, so they interject their own propaganda where they feel necessary.
Not to mention the big picture view of the Hebrew people transforming from pagans to henotheists to monolatrists to monotheists over the course of the Bible.

>>17997377
>indo european white niggas mythos is almost always based on anime tier heroes slaying monsters, dispensing justice without judgement, and raping hoes
>somehow unanimously and enthusiastically declare themselves as spiritual descendents of the people who claim descent from the weak jew who tricked his senile father into giving him the family birthright over his father's preference, the Chad hunter noble brother.

The white man was meant to be a goylem....

>>18003874
You're a dunce.

>>18001810
No, you don't, you absolute low IQ schizophrenic buffoon. I have experienced profoundly more enlightening visions than you have ever had and I'm also substantially more intelligent than you are. You have no idea how existence actually works. You genuinely have no knowledge whatsoever.
The God you believe in does not exist. You're an unenlightened unintelligent moron. You're going to die and you're never going to heaven or hell. You're just going to die and be gone. That's how it actually works, and no amount of you raging and blathering schizophrenic delusions will change this.

>>18005649
I have already seen heaven. Stay mad, hell will be your home forever.