How is their model of the soul so rational and dare I say, accurate, yet the fundamentals of their religion so wonky?
>>17997482your wonkiness sensors are probably miscalibrated then
>>17997605They have hadiths where geodude steals Moses' robes when he went skinny dipping because he had a hernia.And its a Bukhari hadith.
This irrational death cult is pure evil
>>17997631You said the fundamentals are wonky, and then as evidence posted something not fundamental.
>>17997482>rational>islam
>>17997674Hadiths are fundamental to all Islam.
>>17997482Rational model of soul? Several Islamic countries persecute their non-Muslim minority; give the death penalty to anyone who opposes them; and force women to go out into the streets with huge clothes covering their bodies.They use the name of Allah to do horrible things. And there are several terrorist groups within the government, or the terrorists themselves govern the country (like Afghanistan). That doesn't seem very rational to me.
>>17998018https://www.cambridgemuslimcollege.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/cmc_papers_9_v4.pdfI'm referring to this, I can easily discretisize this and find an application of it in Robotics.Seem like good philosophy to me idk.
>>17997482How could you (or anyone) determine that a "model of the soul" is "accurate"?Seems like poetic creative writing, accuracy isn't the right concept. More like subjective enjoyment of the idea.
>>17997987islam is a religion revolving around that hadith specifically?
>>17999032yes, the Quran is secondary reading
>>17999032Yeah, since the Ash'aris won over the Mu'tazilas in like 850.>>17999041This, the Quran specifically says multiple wives are only allowed if the husband dies in battle or there is a shortage of men due to war, not irrational polygamy.
>>17999005From having experience with Heideggerian robotics I can see how to systematically implement at least part of the philosophy into an artificial agent, so from my POV it's really good.
>>17999335>Quran specifically says multiple wives are only allowed if the husband dies in battle or there is a shortage of men due to warIt absolutely does not. Care to quote it "specifically saying" this?
>>17997482Sufism is the continuation of pre-islamic beliefs and practices, that's why.
>>17999357Surah An-Nisa (4:3)>And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].The allowance of up to four wives was tied to ensuring justice for widows and orphans but only if the man could support them fairly.If not, the Qur’an explicitly says THAT ONE IS BETTER.Not sure what Tafsirs agree with this.
>>17999530So no, it doesn't say it. We already have a sahih hadith that tells us, right from Muhammad's own wife, what this means at https://quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-44/Hadith-674/:>Narrated `Urwa bin Az-Zubair:>That he had asked `Aisha about the meaning of the Statement of Allah: "If you fear that you shall not Be able to deal justly With the orphan girls, then Marry (Other) women of your choice Two or three or four." (4.3) She said, "O my nephew! This is about the orphan girl who lives with her guardian and shares his property. Her wealth and beauty may tempt him to marry her without giving her an adequate Mahr (bridal-money) which might have been given by another suitor. So, such guardians were forbidden to marry such orphan girls unless they treated them justly and gave them the most suitable Mahr; otherwise they were ordered to marry any other woman." `Aisha further said, "After that verse the people again asked the Prophet (about the marriage with orphan 'girls), so Allah revealed the following verses:-- 'They ask your instruction Concerning the women. Say: Allah Instructs you about them And about what is Recited unto you In the Book, concerning The orphan girls to whom You give not the prescribed portions and yet whom you Desire to marry..." (4.127) What is meant by Allah's Saying:-- 'And about what is Recited unto you is the former verse which goes:-- 'If you fear that you shall not Be able to deal justly With the orphan girls, then Marry (other) women of your choice.' (4.3) `Aisha said, "Allah's saying in the other verse:--'Yet whom you desire to marry' (4.127) means the desire of the guardian to marry an orphan girl under his supervision when she has not much property or beauty (in which case he should treat her justly). The guardians were forbidden to marry their orphan girls possessing property and beauty without being just to them, as they generally refrain from marrying them (when they are neither beautiful nor wealthy).
>>17999654>Aisha retconning the lorePisslam is so embarrassing.
>>17999673Honestly it really is like >>17999041 says. Islam without the Koran would look more less identical. Islam without the hadith would be unrecognizable.
They were ahead of their time, and sometimes it's hard to admit it. Their models of the soul often anticipate insights from cognitive science.
If you agree that there is no God but God (everyone who's not retarded believes this) and Muhammad is the Messenger of God (more "controversial" lol), you've basically found agreement with the fundamentals of Islam.There's a distinction that many murids make between heterodox Islam and orthodox Islam. It gets to a point where you realize that a lot of hadiths -- even the ones in "canconical" collections -- are just dumb and only there for political reasons. For instance, the controversy about who is considered "ahl al-bayt" was once very, very important... which is why the dictum that "Allah left two things: the Qu'ran and the Sunnah" in the last sermon is alternatively reported as having been "Allah left two things: the Qu'ran and Ahl al-Bayt [the household of the Prophet -- that is, Ali, Hassan, Husayn, and Fatima]". When you look at the "canonical" hadith collections as, essentially, Umayyad propaganda, a lot of things add up. For instance, saying that Ayesha was 6-9 years old means that she was able to grow up in the household of the Prophet, and that she was basically considered Ahl al-Bayt (despite other reportings that she wasn't, a la Tirmidhi). A lot of what's said about Muhammad were to pave the legacies of later figures of the Umayyad, most notably Muawiyah and Yazid I.Basically, take the hadith with a grain of salt. If you're interested in Islamic spirituality and the whole idea of the nafs and how there's seven levels of the nafs and all that jazz just keep learning about that. Who cares about Islam as an ideology when the reality of the concepts Muslims talk about is much more interesting?You might like these two books:Contemplation: An Islamic Psychospiritual Study Abu Zayd al-Balkhi’s Sustenance of the Soul: The Cognitive Behavior Therapy of a Ninth Century Physicianboth by anigga named Malik Badri.
>>17999654>So no, it doesn't say it. It does, the context of the hadith is a battle around Medina.
>>17997482>How is their model of the soul so rationalIs it? If it is, then it must be because of non Islamic influences.Just as not everything in Christianity may be completely retarded because it has Greek philosophical influences.
>>17999005I mean take in consideration Abrahamic cosmology with Jewish sky daddy creating the universe 6000 years ago with the earth at its center and the sun and other planets moving around it, and compare it to for example the eternal universe of Buddhist cosmology with tens of spheres of existence where consciousness doesn't exist in the upper realms and the lower realms get cyclically destroyed and recreated, anticipating the contracting and expanding universe of modern science.
>>18001352The non Islamic influences are likely Christian and gnostic. Christian influences are all over the place but exaggerating the Greek ones is an outdated cope. When you actually look at how Christian theologians interacted with the philosophical questions of their time, you will very often find them in direct opposition to Greek philosophy, such as creation ex nihilo which was nowhere near the Greek consensus when Christianity first started chiming in. The commonalities between Greeks and Christians are mostly semantic. Yes, this includes the Word. But I absolutely see why this cope survives to this day because 1) we made a habit of tracing everything back to Plato as though he invented the priestly worldview and 2) Greek culture has surprisingly deep semitic roots when it comes to wisdom traditions.
>>17997631Problematic Bukhari hadiths and Aisha retcons are really only a problem for Sunnis, who have to accept that Bukhari is 2nd to the Quran in legitimacy or be declared a disbeliever. Of course Shias have their own hadiths too but they don't have that kind of "Bukhari rule" where its believe in a certain hadith or hadith collection or go to hell
>>18000169Secular history shows that Aisha was very politically self interested person. The fact that she is the number one narrator of Sunni hadiths, more than many others who presumably knew him even better but happened to be Shia, is the biggest problem with the Sunni approach to Islam. Sunnism is really just blatantly political which might be ok, but unlike the Shias, Sunnism pretends that there is no political dispute to be political about
>>18000169Finally a high brow reply.But all Ilsamic branches are Hadith based, not just modern Sunni Islam. The Shias and Ibadis too rely on Hadiths though I'm not sure if as much.
>>18001431>really only a problem for SunnisAKA the wast majority of the Islamic world and what the average person thinks of when he thinks of Islam.
>>18001450Its a very different system for Shias, they don't treat any single book as untouchable or unquestionable except obviously the Quran. That leads to a very different approach to hadith evaluation
>>18001452Yes I'm aware Sunnis are the majority. And I'm not sure what what the average person thinks has to do with my point. I'm just pointing out there are large groups that practice differently
>>18001465>>18001462So can we agree that modern Sunni Islam is the worst then?
>>18001347Can you quote it saying this or cite a sahih hadith which interprets it this way? No, you cannot. Muhammad's own wife disagrees with you about what Muhammad meant about marriage. It's your speculation vs. her direct explanation.
>>18001496https://al-islam.org/book/export/html/173275?utm_source=chatgpt.comIt's part of it, a major part of why multiple wives are allowed. But it's a Shia, so the whole Aisha crap doesn't fly.
>>18001577So you concede this is not the case for Sunni Muslims, who make up the vast majority of Muslims?As for your point about Shi'ite Islam, this is an entire book you've just presented. Quote the relevant portion you have in mind.
>>18001437Here is the weird thing for me: the Shia interpretation of history seems objectively correct. I can’t understand how anyone could deny the idea that the Quraysh just used the rise of Islam to empower themselves and marginalize Muhammad’s family, to the point of killing them beginning with Umar injuring Fatima, something that even Sunni sources point towards being true yet for whatever reason Sunnis still deny it. And yet despite all this Sunni Islam is what 90% of Muslims adhere to
>>18002336>And yet despite all this Sunni Islam is what 90% of Muslims adhere toThis is reflective of the fact that the masses follow what they are told to follow, and this is a fact for all peoples, not only Arabs and Sunni Muslims. Thats why they only took one generation to go from fervent followers of Islam to literally slaughtering and beheading the family of the prophet of the religion they just converted to. And the masses still don't question things, so of course most Muslims today are Sunnis, that was the state-approved version of Islam for the early crucial parts of Islamic history
>>18002527>Thats why they only took one generation to go from fervent followers of Islam to literally slaughtering and beheading the family of the prophet of the religion they just converted to.Nigger how deep does the islam rabbit hole go? Story?
>>18004068After the caliphate of Ali (Muhammad's son-in-law and beloved by Shias), a man named Muawiya (beloved by Sunnis) took power. Ali's sons who were Muhammad's grandsons contested this initially, but they agreed to let Muawiya rule on condition that he not pass rulership to his son after him. Well he did exactly that and gave power to his son Yazid, and Muhammad's surviving grandson rose up in rebellion against him. His only followers were his family members, who were Muhammad's family members and descendants. They were only 70 or so and they stood no chance against Yazid's army, which slaughtered them at the Battle of Karbala. Shias commemmorate the battle and mourn them every year, but its not really an important event in Sunni Islam so thats probably why you haven't heard of it. Even many Sunnis don't know about it
>>18004099Its incredible how the more you learn the less islam has to do with this man called Muhammad from the 7th century.
>>18004113Just to share the Shia perspective, they would argue that this event had everything to do with Muhammad since he prophesied that his family would be leaders and central to Islam but also that they would be killed
>>18000169Pagans also believed in a supreme god.It's just that the world and people were also created with the help of the Elohim spirits.And there are spirits that are closer to people.
>>18004122Sounds like cope.Aisha retcon?
>>18004130Shias don't like Aisha and Aisha didn't like Ali and his sons, and also I'm pretty sure she was dead by that point so it wasn't an Aisha retcon
>>18004138>What you’re referring to comes from several hadiths (sayings and traditions) attributed to Prophet Muhammad that discuss both the future role of his family (Ahl al-Bayt) and the tragedies they would face.Well, who would have guessed its not in the Quran. Thanks chatgpt.
>>18002527Even if the Shia interpretation of historical events is correct it wouldn't make their theology correct. The idea that the caliph has to be a direct descendent of Muhammad is plainly irrelevant in a world without caliphs also. There is literally nothing attractive about Shia Islam unless you are some 3rd worldist leftist weirdo who loves all the martyrdom worship and self-flagellation. It makes sense why Muslims would prefer the far more simple Sunni Islam even if they're pretty much in denial of how bad the early schism was
>>18004356Martyrdom and facing death is absolutely based, and it is a strange projection on your part to associate it with leftism or third worldism. Whatever connection you made between those things went over my head. But I know that even vikings shared the idea of a warrior's heaven for those who died in battle, and the importance of martyrdom in Christian thought obviously goes without saying. Shias today are based for constantly fighting Jews without regard for their lives or economic well being, and it is plain to onlookers that it comes from their martyrdom culture
>>18004668>Shias today are based for constantly fighting Jews without regard for their lives or economic well beingI guess you don't see the irony in this statement. Yes Shiites fight others at the expense of themselves, that is the whole problem with them and their religion and it's why Iran is such a floundering shithole. A culture of martyrdom isn't based when it's so vitriolic it obscures all other components of life and actively represses other traits. There is nobody in the world who would look at Shiite rituals where they cut themselves with swords and find it appealing, least of all Sunni Muslims. Sunnis struggle tremendously with slave morality in modern times but for Shiites it's totally baked into their religion and it has made them isolated from other Muslims and distant from the theology they claim is more pure under their command
>>18004961Are you seriously pretending sunni maniacs didnt spend the last 30 decades blowing themselves up for muh martyrdom and mentally self flagellating by adapting islams most rigid, oppressive tenets?
>ctrl+f: Aristotle>zero responsesgarbage thread and garbage board
>>18004961>Yes Shiites fight others at the expense of themselvesThat still sounds pretty based to me. They don't want to back down and would rather be poor and die on their feet than be rich and subservient, and I respect that kind of commitment in any culture
>>17998018You're a Jew.
>>18004961>OY VEY WE CONTROL THR WORLD AND WILL RUIN YOUR COUNTRY IF YOU RESIST US RAPING YOUR DAUGHTER THIS IS PROOF THAT UR A SHITHOLE ur days are numbered, jew
