>>17998782
In communism there is no private business. Nazism allows businesses but simply directs them to state interests. Every state does this at time to time in the modern economy.
Communism was tried at first, failed immediately and was abandoned for the NEP then was reinstalled for a few decades before finally running out of steam. NS is more natural, therefore has a real future.

Fascism also opposes bolshevism. That's the communist definition of a fascist.

>>17998782
Communism is the ideal of creating an anarchist society without money or borders
Fascism is the direct opposite of that
Russian Bolshevism, which is what I assume you mean, is ultimately attempting to create communism even if it's using fascistic methods to achieve that.

>>17998782
>Communism
End class antagonism by ending class and class society itself
>Fascism
End class antagonism by class collaboration and the development of a new State representative of the whole people

>>17998782
Fascists don't have the idea of eventually withering away the state to form a classless, moneyless society.

Modern China is fascist.
The Soviet Union was communist.

>>17998787

The only reason Fascism was against Bolshevism was because they wanted ethnic Germans running the show. Not Jews or Slavs. It had nothing to do with the actual form of government being a problem.

>>17998882
Nope it was because it denied god, hierarchy, race and people for class. Such thinking was entirely made up in the mind of out of touch rich radicals I.e. Jews - therefore has to be opposed. This was even before the Nazis. The Freikorp killed the commies and executed the Jewess Rosa Luxembourg.

>>17998882
>>17998936
Hitler and the NSDAP weren't fascists

File: YuanEmperorAlbumKhubilaiP(...).jpg (1.4 MB, 1642x2048)

1.4 MB JPG

>>17998786
So both Russia and China are currently Nazis not communists like Mao and Stalin

Fascism is the political wing of the bourgeoisie (once the old aristocracy ceases to exist, the bourgeoisie can acquire complete power, and democracy comes with the risk of them being voted out) so business controls the state not the other way around
In practice, this means significant wealth inequality of a level which was illegal under communism

>>17998953
Yes of course.
>>17998958
In fact communism is the political wing of the bourgeoisie. Which is why it never took off with the working class either in Europe or Russia and in the latter had to forced on people to survive. Even in power it had to deal with wave after wave of rebellion by people without weapons. Fascism and National socialism however had mass support in election after election.

>>17998943
Why not?

>>17998786
>In communism there is no private business
In theory yes, not in practice.

>Nazism allows businesses but simply directs them to state interests.
OP asked about fascism, not nazism.
But what you said largely applies to fascism. It advocated corporatism for the state.

The point is that Communism in practice often became what fascism is in theory. And I'll stand by that until someone proves me otherwise.

>>17998953
Not Nazis but fascists, and yes China is absolutely fascist right now. Russia is just a failed state

>>17998822
>The Soviet Union was communist.
The Soviet Union was by all definitions fascist, especially under Stalin. Everything they did was fascism by definition.
Communism by definition is a stateless and classless and of no kapital (no money, no property).
At no point did the Soviet Union achieve this, instead they became hyper-authoritarian with a wealthy ruling elite and extremely nationalistic and militaristic. Basically, they kept all aspects of fascism both in economic, society and government.

>>17998953
Yup. Fascism, is hyper autocratic states, with a command economy. Functionally. Spiritually, it has other connections to types of nationalism and such.

>>17998958
>>17998963
where is the upper class in any of these conversations? Or is retardedly middle and upper class combined in bourgeoisie now. I mean Bezos, and a Missouri CPA worried about paying for two kids college and his mortgage are not concerned with the same issues.

>>17999688
Communism is. But Socialism is on the way to communism. They did make strides towards that. But yes almost every communist state immediately becomes fascist. The ones that dont like Vietnam, simply always understood socialism and communism were retarded, and moved onto a standard 1 party authoritarian state with fairly open markets.

>>17998782
I ask myself why modern China (Deng onwards) is not a fascist state

>>17999676
That's because fascist nationalism is inevitable. Like gravity.

Stand by it. It's like standing by that the earth is round.

>>18000061
It does not identify as Fascist and it really has only to loose association of “a gov where the ruler is authoritarian and does stuff.”

>>17998782
Communism as political system is headless and formless. Which is clearly different from fascism.

Communism as a political ideology seeks to achieve such a state by various political methods. Most famous being Marxism-Leninism, where a small vanguard party takes control of the state, often enacting brutal repression or disregarding democratic will of the people. That is using means that are polar opposite of ends.

Marxism-Leninism heavily inspired Fascists and Nazis aesthetically and policy wise. Nonetheless those movements were hardcore anti-communists profoundly disgusted by the universalist messages of Marxism.

>>17998782
>How's this any different than communism?
The communists will send you to the gulag if you aren't communist enough.
The fascists will only send you to the labor camp if you don't do what they tell you to do.
It's better.

>>18000081
>Marxism-Leninism, where a small vanguard party takes control of the state, often enacting brutal repression or disregarding democratic will of the people.
Not true.
Marxism was about creating a stateless, classless, no kapital (no money, no property) society.
This was what Marx wrote about.

>Marxism-Leninism heavily inspired Fascists and Nazis aesthetically and policy wise.
Fascism was inspired by socislism, not Marxism. Are you insane? Marxism was literally the abolishing of the state, while fascism was about making everything subservient to the state.

Do your homework son.

>>18000282
There is no abolishing the state. As proven by events

>>18000057
>The ones that dont like Vietnam, simply always understood socialism and communism were retarded, and moved onto a standard 1 party authoritarian state with fairly open markets.

As did China.
People who call China communist are idiots.
China is just another authoritarian state with a largely free market.
They merely kept the image of communism because the entire power hiarchy of the current elite depend on it.

>>17998782
In practice it’s not
>>17998786
> Nazism allows businesses but simply directs them to state interests.
This is literally what Lenin did with the NEP

>>17998822
Modern Chinas economy still depends heavily on state run enterprises

>>18000290
It doesn't matter if it wasn't fulfilled in practice, it's still the core ideological theory of Marxism you retard, so it's virtually impossible for fascism to be "inspired" by Marxism because it advocates for the complete opposite of fascism.

Fascism was inspired by socialism, not Marxism.

Do your homework and shut the fuck up.

Don't post again because you're just going to say something dumber. You can't even grasp this basic logic, you third world chimp.

>>18000282
>Marxism was about creating a stateless, classless, no kapital (no money, no property) society
The idea of such society predates Marxism. Marx provided a framework why such a society may be achievable and why flaws in capitalism make it an imperative to achieve such society before capitalism leads to a civilizational collapse. But it provided very little information on how would such a society function and how could such a society be built. Marx put his focus primarily on critique of capitalism, rather than a constructive project.

Marxism-Leninism was more concrete. It provided a concrete method on how to construct such a society using Vanguard party to get shit done. Fascists saw Lenin getting shit done and they were inspired by it. Just as they were inspired by Communist aesthetics (constructivism, functionalism, mass events, the fucking BDSM leather coats of ЧК). However the fascists only adopted superficial features of Marxist movements and rejected the core of their philosophy.

Use your brain before you post, anon. You quote me saying something about Marxism-Leninism and then responding with an argument about pure Marxism, thats not even really that correct.

>>18000310
Im agreeing with you on this. Im some other guy

>>18000336
Most fascists, including mussolini, were first socialists. That how I know they were inspired by socialism rather than Marxism, and socialism is far closer to fascism than communism because socialism also wants state controlled economy under unions.

Mussolini also founded fascism before the USSR had even been established, Russia was still in a chaotic civil war.

It makes no sense to say that Marxism-Leninism rather than socialism inspired fascism. Mussolini wanted socialism but rejected class-struggle and wanted it fused with nationalism, and nationalism was deeply rejected by Lenin and followers of Marxism even with their roadmap.
The only thing I would concede is that mussolini was likely inspired by Lenin is how revolution (from a socialist foundation) succeeded in Russia and accepted that fascism needs its own revolution.

>>18000370
This guy is making sense. Mussolini was a soldier who as a socialist recognised how socialism could practically be made to work.

>>18000370
Communists are socialists. Pretty much until the Bolshevik and Spartacist revolutions the terms were used rather exchangeably. Afterwards socialists split into hardcore Communists and softcore Social Democrats. Socialism exists as an umbrella term for both of these fractions...but thats just pointless autistic semantics.

SSSR may have not been established, but RSFSR was established.

Fascists were inspired both by the brutal "getting shit done" policies of Lenin or the Soviet aesthetics and the Lassalle/Bismarck paternalistic welfare state.

>>18000370
>Mussolini wanted socialism but rejected class-struggle and wanted it fused with nationalism, and nationalism was deeply rejected by Lenin and followers of Marxism even with their roadmap.
Mussolini was a socialist at first, but started rejecting more and more core values of socialism until he stopped being a socialist And since he wasn't a teenager on 4chins, that ideological transformation was gradual, it wasn't "no mom, I identify as a fascist now!" Its impossible to pinpoint the date of his transition, but its possibly to see what he liked and did not like about socialism.

>>18000420
Thanks for this completely worthless post.
Mussolini never rejected socialism, he just realized that he was pro-war and nationalistic, both which was incomparable to socialism. He was kicked out of the party, he never left it voluntarily. His main vision of society was still based on socialism and that's why fascism is syndicalism.

>>17998822
True

>>18000408
>Communists are socialists
The overwhelming majority of socialists don't identify as communists.
Stop scraping the barrel for an argument, it's pathetic.

>thats just pointless autistic semantics.
You're the one who said mussolini and fascism was explicitly inspired by Marxism-Leninism, now you're tiptoeing that it was in fact just socialism as a whole because everything else is just semantics.
Which one us it moron? Pick an argument and stick with it.

>SSSR may have not been established, but RSFSR was established.
I said he was,likely inspired by the socialists revolution of Lenins Bolsheviks, but you said he was inspired by the Soviet state after the Bolsheviks had taken power and become hyper-authoritarian. Maybe you should read your original post again.

>Fascists were inspired both by the brutal "getting shit done" policies of Lenin or the Soviet aesthetics and the Lassalle/Bismarck paternalistic welfare state.
Ok so basically he was a socialist, and he was inspired by the successful socialist revolutionary coup of Lenin to make his own socialist revolutionary coup in Italy. Exactly my argument. You're slowly moving into my playing field in case you haven't realized. I wonder how many posts it will take before you realize that this debate was absolutely worthless and that you were wrong on many points in your original post.

Anyone who hasn't read De Ambris and Gentile shouldn't speak about Fascism

>>18000433
Anon...you are just throwing around words without understanding them.

>https://fondazionefeltrinelli.it/app/uploads/2021/04/Mussolini.pdf
Sarà quindi il mio discorso non so quanto parlamentare nella forma ma
nettamente antidemocratico e antisocialista nella sostanza (approvazioni
all’estrema destra) e quando dico antisocialista intendo dire anche anti-
giolittiano (ilarità) perché non mai come in questi giorni fu assidua la
corrispondenza d’amorosi sensi tra l’onorevole Giolitti e il gruppo
parlamentare socialista. Oso dire che fra di essi esiste il broncio effimero
degli innamorati non già l’irriconciliabilità irreparabile dei nemici.

>>18000456
Does that rule apply to all other political ideologies as well?

>>18000452
>The overwhelming majority of socialists don't identify as communists.
Not only this is wrong factually as vast majority of Socialists IRL are Chicoms...

but its also completely nonsensical from logical perspective. Statement "Vast majority of Socialists≠Communists" does not contradict the statement "Communism∈Socialism".

You must be either a clanker or a mutt. Thats not a mistake human would make, even in these late hours.

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609 KB PNG

>>17998822
>Modern China is fascist.
>>18000292
>China is just another authoritarian state with a largely free market.
The plot twist here is that modern Chinese state ideology is very much based on science and engineering, and it's all very materialist. They lay it on thick in the propaganda:
https://youtu.be/eNX4lCtzJOs

It's like a technocracy. Fascist regimes liked technology too but the wellspring of fascist ideology was anti-rationalist. I think the idea of people becoming rational calculators was really against everything they believed. There was a lot of horror expressed in fascist writings about modern society turning people into cogs.

>>18000405
>This guy is making sense. Mussolini was a soldier who as a socialist recognised how socialism could practically be made to work.
I'm partial to Zeev Sternhell's theory of fascism as an anti-materialist, anti-Marxist (nationalist, anti-class struggle) offshoot of socialism. It was very military. Mussolini was influenced by Sorel's theories about the role of passions and myths and violence in inspiring revolutionary action, and also the Pareto theory of elites, and the Italian fascists had the idea that hardened war veterans would be new elites.

>>18000408
>Communists are socialists. Pretty much until the Bolshevik and Spartacist revolutions the terms were used rather exchangeably.
That's true. Lenin's Comintern only wanted parties that were built on the Bolshevik model to be members. There were socialist parties that wanted to join but were rejected, and left-wing socialism began splitting into camps around then.

>>18000420
>Its impossible to pinpoint the date of his transition, but its possibly to see what he liked and did not like about socialism.
It was gradual yeah but I'd put his big break starting around 1915. That's just my reading though.

>>18000433
>Mussolini never rejected socialism
He did. The Italian fascists became die-hard right-wing Rambos.

>>18000462
Obviously yes

>>17998786
Nazi's replaced or threatened every single ceo into towing the party line and doing exactly what hitler wanted. Nazism has private property in name only.

To answer OP, communism demands you work and die for the workers party while fascists demand you work and die for your blood and soil. It's a different excuse to put the exact same leash on your neck because to them, you are but an extension of whatever groups you belong to instead of an individual.

>>17998797
Thats stupid and will never work. if you have that power you are not giving it up.

>>17998821
Neither do communists. Its a trap.

>>17998782
>Fascism - a system in which some people are made to do what other people want them to do.

All of politics is literally fascist. Omg omg omg. Stop creating arbitrary definitions and then getting upset at them.

>>18001001
>Nazi's replaced or threatened every single ceo into towing the party line and doing exactly what hitler wanted. Nazism has private property in name on

Why should a private business be allowed to harm the state? It obviously shouldn't and businesses must do as they are told by Hitler.
There's no such as an independent individual. Never has been, never will be.

You're clearly a stupid American bootstrapper. Fuck off.

>>18001081
You said the exact thing I told you you believe. Every human is an individual, to forget that aspect of humanity is to become a bugman. Your hopes and dreams, and especially your life and property (which you invest your life into to obtain) should not he subject to committee. It is inhuman. How many more wars will you fight to justify your lust for leashes?

>>18001087
There's no evidence that every human is an individual. Stop posting cringe.

Yes your hopes and dreams should be subject to a committee and you've got no argument against that committee.

It is absolutely human.

We will fight war after war for the rest of time or until the universe dies in a heat death. We do not justify the leash. We are the leash.

Go ahead, give an example of how im wrong.

>>17998782
Fascism is Capitalism in crisis. where in the face of imminent or ongoing popular unrest from the proletariat (regardless of if they've gained class consciousness or not) the Bourgeois empower the most violent psychopaths they can find to ruthlessly crush labor under heel in order to safeguard capital. It has as little to do with communism as anything possibly could.

>>18001154
>there is no evidence
Post a human who is not an individual.

>>17998782
Hitler was socialist, not fascist

>>17998936

>hierarchy

Yeah there was a hierarchy. You were either an ethnic German and got to be part of the state. Or you weren't and had to go. All ethnic Germans were equal.

>>17998782
Fascism is solidarist, i.e. all social classes unite to build a country under the stong leadership
Communism is an ideology inimical towards possesing class siding with the workers and peasants.
That's just the theory, praxis is often different

>>17998797
>Communism is the ideal of creating an anarchist society without money or borders
You realize this is complete gibberish right? Its basically just the christian idea of heaven but repackaged for materialists.

>>18001175
>>18001175

>>18003319
That's the point. The communist's job is making up reasons that either he deserves your property more than you or he knows someone that deserves your property more than you and that he must give it from you to them. The rest is just sophism designed to confuse.

>>18003326
Lol, lmao even.