Sintashta had absolutely 0, zilch to do with spread of I-Ir.The first chip of the nonsensical Kurgan theory of Gimbutas has fallen, with PIE rightly moving south of steppe.The data in the papers itself has dealt a second big blow to the steppe origin of I-Ir theory, via the Hasanlu and Dinkha Tepe samples. By 1000bce, these locations were already Iranian, as approved by your big momma Kuz'mina. There's no shred of Sintashta or R1a related ancestry at those sites till the last sample dated 500-600bce. What we instead see is a big chunk of bmac related ancestry and some armenia/catacomb related yamnaya and R1b ancestry. We also see a sample with 20% swat_nosteppe ancestry and another with swat specific L1a2 Y hg.Viktor Sarianidi: 1Kuz'mina, Anthony, Mallory: 0This new pre print BTFO'd the Cucktashta cope again. Its over, over.
>>18010347we don't even know about andromutts and trashtashta who spoke Iranian, linguistics is a magical and mythological field, we don't even know which gods "they" worshipped. that glorious study that leaves me even... too comfortable to say the least, it didn't find Steppe_MLBA in the Iranian samples, nor any R1a-Z93, just a little churka (Yamnaya). they lost
>>18010370They couldn't even spoke iranian
>>18010347What?
>>18010347Shitty study
>>18010874Why?
>>18011309Is confirmation bias the only palpable argument here? What if I cite about four studies that claim Steppe_MLBA is the steppe source in Asia? Those who spoke Indo-Iranian languages appear to have a strong connection to the Sintashta cluster, forming a near-perfect cline between this cluster and the Indus Valley diaspora individuals who show no evidence of steppe ancestry. This suggests a significant genetic connection between these groups
>>18011318OP is an old acquaintance on the eurogenes website; he equates Catacomb = Iranian. Which I find flawed, as does the Srubna = Iranian theory, since neither culture expanded into Central Asia. However, we have Iranian tribes emerging in Central Asia just a few centuries after the Indo-Aryans.
>>18010370absence of L657 in Sintashta-Andronovo that is more worrying for your theories, The day L657 is found in Sintashta/Andronovo and L51 is found in Western Yamna, I would consider the sealed steppe model.
>>18011337Meant for you>>18011318
>>180103472025 and Indians keep seething about sintashta question?
aryan invasion theory was consensus even before people knew genetic studies could exist, simply off the linguistic and religious data simply one rando alleged study posted on /his/ isn't enough, to deny it you need to prove out of india in contraversion to all genetic, linguistic and archaeological data
>>18011380>archaeologicalI'm not the OP, but archaeology is actually evidence against the PII
>>18011380Responds if you can,a challengeAlthough there is evidence that they rode horses before the Andronovans, based on cylinder seals and cheek protectors, he does not deny the Indo-Iranian influence in the Zagros, but he minimizes it. The "ninjas" of ancient BMAC are an example of how a steppe group can adopt the entire BMAC culture and still maintain their Indo-Iranian language. This may explain the presence of Indo-Aryans in the Near East. However, it is strange that the Indo-Iranians adopt the BMAC culture and maintain the language. Why not adopt the language as well? Historically, Indo-Iranian elites rarely imposed their languages. The Mitanni elite did not impose their language on the Hurrians, and the Persians, who ruled a large portion of the world's population, did not impose their language on their subjects except in specific cases. Most theories are based on the idea that the Indo-Iranian Andronovans fully adopted the BMAC culture. Perhaps it is simpler to consider the BMAC as the culture of an Indo-Iranian group.
>>18011385even if the evidence in india itself is ambiguous, denial of the aryan invasion requires the alternative hypthesis that vedic culture and steppe ancestry originated in india to be true, which then requires an explanation of how the cultural identites across other indo european peoples developed with reference to archaeological data, of which there is overwhelming, prohibitive evidence against
>>18011391thanks ChatGPTare you posting from a toaster in mumbai and can't form coherent sentences in english yourself?
>>18010347>it was not directly sintashta but something mixed with sintashta
>>18011391This BMAC thing again? All of this is intentionally maximized.>HorsesNo, they didn't have mounted horses or chariots. The first people to use horses for riding were the PII, not "BMAC."Bmac is not Iranian. First, the dates don't match. PII is believed to be probably around 2200 BCE, derived from Fatyanovo. Bmac is relatively contemporary with PII, and the contact they had wasn't as absolute and maximized as you try to make it seem. Even in areas where archaeologists assume there was contact, there isn't much, if any, "Bmac" material culture in PII sites like Sintashta. And generally, we have no evidence of substantial genetic exchange. I find it funny that you masturbate to Sarianidi, where he was questioned about many of his claims about "fire temples."In fact, a change in the material basis can be recognized, in which BMAC increasingly relied on metal deposits from the Andronovo territory.
>>18011405>is ambiguousSo, we can't argue in favor of aryan invasion.
>>18011408I do not use chatgpt retarded, refute or bow down before me>>18011422we have cylinders and cheek protectors, less is used as evidence to prove that Eneolithic knights rode horses, like a guy with broken balls. try again and answer my post>In fact, a change in the material basis can be recognized, in which BMAC increasingly relied on metal deposits from the Andronovo territoryLMAO what do you think this means??
>>18011430I will refrain from calling you an 80 iq brown and just say that you misunderstood my point that there was a proto indo-european people is proven overwhelmingly from genetic, linguistic and archaeological data EVEN IF archaeological data from india alone is ambiguous, that says little. because you have to explain all of the other data points which clearly point to an indo-aryan invasion of india
Timmies btfo! Out of India is true.
>>18011435>LMAO what do you think this means??Me? Nothing at allbut it turns out we're talking about influences between groups, and the "bmac" influence is maximized. so maximized that schizophrenic allegations are made, like them having ridden a horse before the PII. furthermore, why is only the possible influences of bmac mentioned and not of andronovo?
>>18010347>Sintashta had absolutely 0, zilch to do with spread of I-Ir>>18010379>They couldn't even spoke iranian>>18010370>we don't even know about andromutts and trashtashta who spoke IranianI'm sorry to say that you gentlemen don't understand how historical linguistics works. Philological and comparative linguistic evidence allows us to date languages,
>>18011608Linguistics cannot prove this, it is beyond its scope, defining linguistic relationship is not the same as defining WHO said it. And no DNA can do the same.
>>18010347One of the insults used for the Dravidians/Dasyu in the Rig Veda is anās (noseless). PII Craniometry reconstructions suggest they were particularly long-nosed Europeans. Apparently an admirable feature in contrast to their flat-faced neighbors
>>18011619LOL these translations are not only false but comically biased, just by the author using "aryan" vs "le dark skin" we already see the disaster, show me etymological evidence for these words or shut up
>>18011613? Basal Indo-European shows little evidence of agricultural terms. Which make sense, since they were pastoralista and not farmers, unlike the iran_N peoples.After the proto-language split, terms related to agriculture will be developed, obviously, and these changes happening in the European branches first and in the Indo-Iranian branches last, because they lived like shepherds rather than farmers, as well attested in some RV verses.By this, I mean that both languages are distinct, and with linguistics we can trace some social aspects of the populations, they did not use words that were not part of their daily lives, for example. There are no linguistic reasons to deny that PII was Andronovo or Sintashta, there are good reasons for this to be a consensus.
>>18011638>blathis is irrelevant to the statement. how does this prove that Sintashta barked PII?
>>18010347We can infer that these groups followed the IAMC route from the Siberia/Altai region. The origin of both branches of the Indo-Aryans would be from these groups
>>18011638And why is Sanskrit older than any other IE language, even the ones in Central Asia? It couldn't have been Sintashta that introduced it since they were a relatively new branch of PIEs.
>>18011797>>18011645>And why is Sanskrit older than any other IE languageThank you, I understand that linguistics is not your area and I should ignore it.I appreciate the attempt to keep your narrative on a dead thread, not everyone is brave enough to behave like square beasts, but I'm afraid to say it was a monumental failure.
>>18011812Please, I want to hear your cope about why Sanskrit is older than other Indo-Iranic languages if it was Sintashta that introduced it. Nowhere in Europe is this the case. Greek/Armenian are the oldest ones because it was where the Yamna first migrated.
Timmy sisters... it was BMAC that spoke it. It's over.
>>18011828No, it wasn't. Bmac isn't even Iranian. Michael Witzel points out that the borrowed vocabulary and are not words found in any Iranian or IE branch. The samples extracted from BMAC sites didn't derive any of their ancestry from the steppe, and to reiterate, BMAC wasn't really a monolithic civilization or kingdom. It was a region with a good supply of river water, fishing, favorable climatic conditions, and trade routes, which attracted many people from all over Western Central Asia to settle there without conflict or imperialism. And that's it.They simply chose to use the resources as best they could.https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/324130
>>18012060the guy was polite about 5 times and in his own source it clearly says that this shitty theory has holes than his mother when she left for work loljeebmac were not even an ethnolinguistic group, treating this jumble of cultures as a type of political unit is also erroneous, there is not even political unification here and they are better described as city-states or perhaps not even that than anything else.>>18011797Sanskrit is a modern language, the donkey here meant Vedic? Vedic is no older than 1500 BC, Greek is much older for example, with its 2200 BC
>>18011619Bump
>>18012068it's a troll, possibly the same homunculus who made claims about Sanskrit being older, I'm really getting tired of this place, there is no quality discussion here.There is no linguistic consensus on what language they may have spoken. I personally believe "they" were diverse. According to their haplogroups, it could suggests that the BMAC peoples may have been related to Kartvelian speakers, but it is also possible that there were more than two groups of speakers of different languages. Perhaps it was a multilingual region.
>>18010347Considering the preponderance of Y-haplogroup R1a (of the clades) in the Andronovo remains and the clearly Iranian language, the admixture was likely mediated by Steppe_MLBA gene flow. This makes sense, given the genetic and linguistic context of the region and the archaeological context, since it is linked to Fedorovo.>We document a southward spread of genetic ancestry from the Eurasian Steppe, correlating with the archaeologically known expansion of pastoralist sites from the Steppe to Turan in the Middle Bronze Age (2300-1500 BCE). These Steppe communities mixed genetically with peoples of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) whom they encountered in Turan (primarily descendants of earlier agriculturalists of Iran), but there is no evidence that the main BMAC population contributed genetically to later South Asians.>While we do not have access to any DNA directly sampled from the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC), based on (a) archaeological evidence of material culture exchange between the IVC and both BMAC to its north and Shahr-i-Sokhta to its east (27), (b) the similarity of these outlier individuals to post-IVC Swat Valley individuals described in the next section (27), (c) the presence of substantial AASI admixture in these samples suggesting that they are migrants from South Asia, and (d) the fact that these individuals fit as ancestral populations for present-day Indian groups in qpAdm modeling, we hypothesize that these outliers were recent migrants from the IVC.>However, we find that mixtures using the Indus_Periphery sample (a pool of three outlier individuals from the BMAC site of Gonur and from Shahr-i-Sokhta), provides an excellent source population for the Iranian agriculturalist-related ancestry in South Asia when combined with any individuals in the Steppe_MLBA cluster Srubnaya, Sintashta_MLBAhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1>>18011778Correct
>>18010347How do you explain Piir loanwords in Uralic ?
>>18012097There's simply no way a pure Sintashta source entered in India. It was at least something mixed with BMAC like the samples from the Yaz culture that cluster with Tajiks. Sintashta only spawned the Scythians. They have nothing to do with Persians and Indo-Aryans.
>>18012330one of the earliest steppe graves in India is a fully Sintashta male.
>>18012334>source: Tom CuckswellLiterally impossible for Sintashta to cross the Yaz-BMAC horizon unadmixed. Swat had cultural elements from BMAC like Yaz.
>>18012304? Irrelevant
>>18012330It was not Sintashta that entered India, just as it was not yours whom you call your father who copulated with your mother. It was Andronovo, "Steppe_MLBA", which is identical to Sintashta itself.>but there is no evidence that the main BMAC population contributed genetically to later South Asians.>yazit is not Indo-Aryan
>>18012097>>18010347The pooper deep state has finally exposed itself by admitting that they hide important genetic data of ancient Indian samples with help of government. There's no need to call people "nordicist" or "conspiracist". Information regarding Sinauli sample with 80% Sintashta ancestry was leaked which effectively proves that Aryan migration is truth
>>18012330The Indo-Aryans were likely a large offshoot of the Fedorovo branch of Andronovo. Some shot off way to the West and became the Mitanni, some went Southeast through the Khyber Pass and became the Rigvedic people.
>>18012562Bump
>>18011422>No, they didn't have mounted horses or chariotsBMAC had both mounted horses and chariots found in the same grave, the first in the world, predating Sintashta and Andronovo. >In fact, a change in the material basis can be recognized, in which BMAC increasingly relied on metal deposits from the Andronovo territory.It is the opposite. Andronovo and Sintashta continually imported BMAC crafts and products.
>>18013368>BMACBMAC wasn't really a monolithic civilization or kingdom.>had both mounted horsesNo, there were no ridden horses in Asia before Sintashta. There is no archaeological or genetic evidencethere were horses mounted that were not from Dom 1 and DoM2. We can only trace how this occurred and postulate these equine lineages.And there is no evidence of horses ridden in "bmac.">and chariotsinvented only in 1800, perhaps proto-chariots in the Catacomb culture, but it is debatable. However, not in India or Central AsiaWeak bait, by the way.>Andronovo and Sintashta continually imported BMAC crafts and products.No.https://ouci.dntb.gov.ua/en/works/7pooV5B9/Again, stop trolling, i m getting tired
>>18013523>BMAC wasn't really a monolithic civilization or kingdom.This is random cope from you. BMAC had shared designs between their cities. Sintashta and Andronovo weren't monolithic and instead based on small tribes warring with each other and killed themselves constantly. >No, there were no ridden horses in Asia before SintashtaHorses were ridden in Asia before Sintashta even existed. >invented only in 1800BMAC had invented mounted horses and chariots by 2200 BC.>https://ouci.dntb.gov.ua/en/works/7pooV5B9/This states that BMAC crafts, products, and ores were needed by Sintashta and Andronovo. >Again, stop trollingThis was my first post.
