It's over.Actually it has been over for some time now. But it has never been more over than it is now.Cuckbros, our response?
>>18012083Also check this peer reviewed philosophical article where he proved that objective morality exists. https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/16/8/1061
>>18012083I'm not a religious man, but arguments against a historical Jesus are bad faith historiography. The primary argument is lack of sources during his lifetime, but we have surprisingly little firsthand sources of a lot of historical figures made during their lifetimes. It was assumed for example that Pontius Pilate may not have been a real person until stone tablet were discovered in the 1960s that had his name on it. Historians are fairly confident that a man named Jesus did in fact exist, and they come to this conclusion generally through corroborating posthumous statements allowing some level of extrapolation as to who this person was. The primary argument as to why we have little accounts of him during his lifetime is simply because his early followers would've had no real need or reason to write anything he said down. Remember, Jesus was an apocalyptic cult leader representing a relatively small Judean sect of followers, he wasn't the major historical figure we known him as today. Few of his followers would've been literate, and the few that were literate wouldn't have written anything down because from their perspective the world was about to come to an end anyways. Historians typically go by more than just firsthand accounts when discussing the existence of ancient peoples and Jesus is no exception.
>Jesus didn't existWhy the urge to deb00nk this historical religious figure? Why argue against their existence rather than engage with and argue against their (alleged) teachings?You rarely see Western atheists arguing against the historical existence of Siddhartha (the Buddha), or Zarathustra. It's almost laser focused on Jesus. Maybe this is a product of their environment, my theory is these people are actually mad at mom and dad for not letting them sleep in on Sunday and dragging them to church.
>>18012087>rehashed Kantian moral imperative and Euthyphro Dilemma PROVES objective moralityNo it doesn't.
>>18012083>Richard Carrier$5 says his real name is Ruben Cohen.
>>18012249You lose, hes not a jew. Give me the $5
>>18012249No, but Ehrman and McGrath, his opponents, are likely jews. So you're projecting.>>18012162>Why the urge to deb00nk this historical religious figure? Why argue against their existence rather than engage with and argue against their (alleged) teachings?There is no urge to debunk anything, only the urge to find historical facts and calling out dishonest scholarship. >You rarely see Western atheists arguing against the historical existence of non western religious figures. It's almost laser focused on the figure of the dominant religion in the west. Woah, anon. You might be onto something. >my theory is these people are actually mad at mom and dad for not letting them sleep in on Sunday and dragging them to church.Clearly a smart and honest theory from a smart and honest person. You're very high iq. >>18012108>but arguments against a historical Jesus are bad faith historiography.Except it's not, stopped reading right there.
>>18012308>obsessed with ChristianityWhy? Again, the Sunday wake up call theory likely applies. If they were sent to a Hindu temple they'd be sperging out about how Vishnu "doesn't real". Western atheists LOVE attacking Christianity, but are afraid to go after Judaism and Islam, because they might go to jail or get murdered. So stunning and brave. You will grow out of your militant atheism as you grow older anon. Or become a sad person, like Richard Dawkins, and get cancelled by your fellow atheists for not supporting the latest degenerate behavior that they are promoting.
>>18012317>but are afraid to go after Judaism and Islam, because they might go to jail or get murdered. So stunning and brave.>JudaismMost Jews are atheists except for some Hassidics who live in their own little communities and don't go online.
>>1801232080% of Jews in Israel believe in God, according to a 2009 study.I guess only the atheist ones work for MOSSAD spreading disinfo online?Criticism of Jew, Judaism, and Israel is a punishable offense in many countries. Too scared to go jail? You might make some friends there.>ignores IslamTypical.
>>18012317I was never forced to go to church and my parents were both atheistsAtheists focus on Christians because they're the majority religion in the west. Atheists also attack Islam all the timeChristianity will be entirely crushed and stamped out. We will utterly destroy every Christian and every church. There is no future for Christians in this world or the next
>>18012366Wow dude you sure hate Christians. Are you gonna stamp out Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc...too? How do you plan on doing this? Forcing everyone to convert to atheism at gunpoint? I don't know if you realize but Christianity is pretty resilient against persecution, one might say it even thrives on it. >You can lock up a mouse or a man, but you can't lock up an idea. >- Tommy Douglas in the parable of MouselandSerious question, are you by chance a transgender communist? Inquiring minds would like to know how you ended up so intolerant.
>>18012317This post is so retarded on so many levels. Attacking your jew worshipping cult doesn't make anyone obsessed with it, just like calling out tranny doesn't make one obsessed with trannies. You are lying as christcucks always do, nothing of what you said was even implied in my post.
>>18012386I'm not Christian but you are obsessed. Even using slurs for them lmao. Lucky they're all at church rn so they can't respond.I mean really...>christcuckThis is just sad. I mean really, stop, get some help. Therapy or something.
>>18012393>If you critisize problem you must be obsessed with problemI already explained to you why nothing of what I do means I'm in any way obsessed. You're too retarded and too dishonest to accept the critique and do better.If you're not a Christcuck (this word is an accurate description both literally and metaphorically, so using it is not sad, it's based) than what are you and why are you acting like one?
>>18012429>can't discuss a religion unless you are personally a member of that religionSo you're a "Christcuck" too? I mean, since I'm one apparently (I didn't know).
>>18012083The scholarly consensus nowadays is that Abraham and Moses are made up characters that never existed. It's only a matter of time before rabbi Yeshua is added to the bunch, since there isn't more evidence for his existence than there is for the abrahamic prophets.
>>18012437>reading comprehension
>>18012485Never heard of reductio ad absurdum have ye? Must be new to the internet. What year were you born? Are you old enough to be here?
>>18012083Another self-published book by professional blogger Richard Carrier? Oh no, how will I ever recover?
By the way, Richard Carried cheated on his wife and then came out at polyamorous when he was caught.
2 more days, I guess.
>>18012514>>18012517Cope
>>18012083If he made this book about Mohammed and had his image on the cover repeated 4 times he might have had some balls. Better luck next time
>>18012083Drop that thing:https://historyforatheists.com/tag/carrier/
>>18012162>You rarely see Western atheists arguing against the historical existence of Siddhartha (the Buddha), or Zarathustra. It's almost laser focused on Jesus. Maybe this is a product of their environment, my theory is these people are actually mad at mom and dad for not letting them sleep in on Sunday and dragging them to church.Well yeah, Westerners are going to focus on Western culture. It's like asking why the average Chinese netizen doesn't give a shit about the historical existence of Noah or something.
>>18012087Kek, objective moral facts?>>18012170 Agree. His metaphysics seems to be nonsensical to me. I may read it... during my Christmes holydays...>>18012450There is a difference. The story around Moses contradicts the timeline established by the translation of Egyptian texts. The Egyption show me sign of a exodus or great slave populations.A story like exodus, even if we let out miracles and so on, would have been noted and the subject of stories and would written down. Nothing like that happend.With Jesus, it's another case
>>18013127>history for atheists>This blog is for articles, book reviews and critiques relating to “New Atheist Bad History” – the misuse of history and the use of biased, erroneous or distorted pseudo history by anti-theistic atheists. The author is an atheist himself so no, this is not some theist apologetics blog.mhm, sure thing, boss
>>18013137Note they also never attack Judaism. How convenient.
>>18013147Genetic fallacyAd hominem
>>18013137Such a view is myopic and culturally biased Please atheists, make more threads about other historical figures and how they never existed. I want a thread about how George Washington never existed. Not the thousandth "Jesus and skydaddy don't real!" thread.
>>18012108t. hasn't read Carrier
>>18013147Note how the Carrier shill has never once responded to any of Tim O’Neil’s arguments against Carrier.
>>18013397Carrier has some things to say about O'Neill as wellhttps://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/23000
>>18012083He does a good job showing the lack of genuine historical sources for Jesus, and I do agree how strange it is that the early epistles seem to show so little knowledge of an earthly Jesus.That said, his alternative hypothesis is too wacky for me, and he doesn't have strong enough evidence for the existance of believers in a cosmic crucifixion for me to be able to really buy it.
>>18012083This argument literally always falls apart when you apply this level of scrutiny to any other ancient historical figure. The only people that can be confirmed are typically those who either held political/military power, or authors of texts that survive today. Jesus didn't hold any earthy office, and he didn't write anything. The same goes for the hundreds of billions who've been forgotten to time, this argument would also apply to them in saying they never existed.It also fails to tackle the issue of the Apostles themselves. I can understand if one doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, but to come up with this convoluted plot that says the Apostles were in some secret agreement that they'd write about a fictional person and then to later go on and all literally die for, seems like a gigantic stretch. It makes much more sense historically to just admit that Yehoshua ben Yosef the Nazarine did, in fact, exist. This level of obsession with attempting to disprove the existence of a single person can only be the result of some deep-seated religious trauma and issues.
no one reads Carrier before giving their opinion about why he's wrong :(
>>18013482> Recently Tim O’Neill once again engaged his usual arrogantly dishonest methods and lied about the evidence in the very act of denouncing an actual expert (me)Holy shit he is seething. Tim clearly struck a nerve.
>>18013482Stuff like this is why no one take Carrier seriously. Not only does he get incredibly butthurt whenever anyone criticizes him, but he’s a total hypocrite: he spends so much time and effort writing about how mainstream historical academia is corrupt and blind to the truth, yet as soon as people make fun of his retarded theories, he insists that people need to listen to him because he’s an expert and has a PhD.
>>18013490Religion isn't really about evidence honestly. Its about what resides in your heart and your willingness to agree that you're not the center of the universe. Unfortunately many atheists fail at both.
>>18012083>historical jesussee josephus and tacitus. the truth is that the notion of "the historical jesus" is used mainly by jews to undermine christianity due to their hatred of christ. see what they say about jesus in the talmud. >https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=jesus&tab=text&tvar=1&tsort=relevance&svar=1&ssort=relevance
>>18014370Don’t bother trying to bring up real evidence to this guy. I’ve argued with him before and he refuses to accept anything.
>>18014831yea, you're right. thanks for telling me.
>>18012083You can say what you want to about Carrier, but the amount of people I've seen who think they can deboonk him while evidently not having read his work is astonishing.
>Jesus never existed. - Some dude>this deb000000000nks not just Christianity, but the very concept of God itselfAtheist cope lmao
>>18013150most atheist criticize the old testament, and by extension Judaism and many also criticize infant circumcisionJudaism isn'tmuch a focus because it's irrelevant
Tip for aspiring mythicism deboonkers: there's a bit more to Jesus mythicism than insisting there isn't enough evidence. I don't know if Carrier has ever made this distinction, but I'd outline three or so different angles of attack through which the case for mythicism is typically made.The first is the one everyone knows, the case from there being a lack of unambiguous evidence. And that of course involves arguing that some things that appear to be evidence actually aren't, like the bit in Josephus being an interpolation or several bits in Paul's letters being much less clearly in favor of historicity once the context and original Greek are fully accounted for.The second is the case from the active presence of details that can be argued to be more probable under mythicism, like maybe a very early high Christology; allegorical or symbolic elements and other highly literary structural features of the gospels; Jesus himself fitting into an established overwhelmingly fictional archetype; suspicious alignments between the gospels and other literature like Paul's letters, where it can argued that it's more likely ideas are flowing from Paul's letters or even the life of Paul to the gospel Jesus rather than the other way around; evidence of early Christians who didn't believe in a historical Jesus or who had wildly different ideas of Jesus history that placed him a hundred years earlier... And there's a ton in that category.Then finally the third is the case that goes, "Yes, Jesus mythicism might seem totally bizarre to us, but here's why it would have been more plausible in the context of the beginning of Christianity." And in that box you'll find stuff about dying-and-rising savior gods, mystery cults, the crucifixion of Prometheus, the burial of Adam away from earth in the Apocalypse of Moses, the euhemerization of Osiris, and a bunch of other stuff.Read Carrier for a much more comprehensive and persuasive presentation of the evidence than this, though.
>>18016670You know, I almost took this post seriously and was going to respond to the points. But then you blew your cover by shilling for Carrier at the very end. Everyone who's a regular /his/ poster can tell that you samefag the hell out of your own threads, OP.
>>18016676I don't know how I can prove it to you but I'm not OP and I pretty much never make OPs. I am responsible for a few of the posts above from a while ago though, like this one >>18013147 and this one >>18013482Lots of OPs seem to hit and run and I take over for them if I agree with them, which led to me being accused of being OP more than once. Maybe I'm still a Carrier shill in the sense that I'm shilling for Carrier in the designated "If you want to shill for Carrier, this is the thread for doing it" thread. but I don't care to push a topic if there isn't already apparent interest in it.
>>18016698 (cont.)All that said I'm really not up for a proper argument, so If you want to respond to my points and pummel them that's fine. I just want anons to have at least a vague idea about mythicism instead of assuming there's nothing to it *except* trying to make swiss cheese out of whatever someone might propose as evidence of a historical Jesus and insisting that it isn't good enough, which would be a pretty weak position.
>>18016719 (cont.)Probably the best way to describe my opinion on mythicism isn't that it's definitely true, but that it's viable, meaning I'm persuaded that there's at least a 1% chance that it's correct, and I think it's interesting because it's so weird to imagine compared to historicity.
>>18016670Possibly another good addition to the third bucket is the argument that "two powers in heaven" was an idea present in Judaism well before the Christianity.https://drmsh.com/the-naked-bible/two-powers-in-heaven/
>>18014370He adresses this in the book,
