Apparently, so-called "modern Egyptology" concludes that there was no invasion of Egypt. Instead, it was Canaanite people who migrated to Egypt and, without much revolt against the Egyptian state, were somehow able to gain independent status. Since at least the 1960s, "invasions" have become a taboo that should be minimized at all costs, Is the theory that the Hyksos were Indo-Europeans or related to them really as absurd and dismissible as the so-called "academia" says? Don't get me wrong, I'm open to hypotheses, even the most retarded ones. Is this dismissed out of pure "supremacy"? It doesn't seem like a good argument to me.
>>18019567I'm absolutely sure they were Hurrians, and they got steppe technologies through trade with the north
>>18019567Invasion or not, they are depicted similar to Lybians
>>18019567>"You're a Nordicist!", cries the semitist
>>18019567It wasn't an invasion. The Hyksos were Egyptboos. They adopted Egyptian culture to the point of declaring themselves pharaohs, using royal titles and insignia, incorporating local gods like Seth, who was identified with their own Baal-Hadad, building Egyptian-style temples, copying the pharaonic administrative system and even writing in hieroglyphics. This shows that this wasn't a sudden barbarian invasion but rather a foreign elite fascinated by Egypt and eager to legitimize themselves as part of the Egyptian culture.>>18020537>>18020556The Egyptians called the Hyksos "Aamu" (Asiatics), as the Egyptians also called the Amorites. The Amorites were Semitic people who originated in Syria before migrating and settling in Mesopotamia and Canaan, established there prominent kingdoms in already existing city-states such as Isin, Larsa, Mari, Ebla and Babylon, fouding the Old Babylonian Empire. They also founded the Hyksos Dynasty of Egypt in the Nile Delta, characterized by rulers with Amorite names such as Yakbim. The term Amurru/Martu in Akkadian and Sumerian texts refers to the Amorites, their chief deity, and to an Amorite kingdom. Assyrian king lists record the name Hayanu for a "remote ancestor" of Shamshi-Adad I (c. 1800 BC) of Assyria, Khyan/Hayanu being the Hyksos pharaoh whom Abraham met/was cuckolded, known in rabbinic tradition as Rikayon.Btw Abraham, that although the Torah says that their relatives were Arameans, they did not exist in Syria at that time like the Chaldeans in Ur, is a late deformation of the Amorite personal name Abiram, "my father (is) exalted." The first part, אב (Ab), means "father," but the root רהם is unknown in Semitic and has led to much speculation. As for his original name, אברם (Abram), it means "exalted father" and is likely a misinterpretation of the Amorite name אבירם (Abiram), "my father is exalted."
>>18020565Btw Ur. The city of Ur began to emerge as a military and political power in Sumer during the Early Dynastic Period III (2600–2350 BC, where the first representations of war chariots in Mesopotamia appear, picrel is a depiction of an onager-drawn cart on the Sumerian War panel of the Standard of Ur, 2500 BC), but its first major military expansion and dominance over other cities occurred mainly during the reign of the Third Dynasty of Ur with Ur-Nammu, around 2112 BC, as a reaction to its vassalage to Semitic Akkadian rule (Akkad was the capital of the Akkadian Empire, the first empire of humanity, founded by Sargon of Akkad, who was the first great Akkadian king to unify Mesopotamia in 2334–2279). However, before that, during the so-called Early Dynastic Period (c. 2900–2334 BC), Ur was already waging wars against rival cities such as Lagash, Umma, and Kish, but it was not yet the dominant power in Sumer; that role was more contested between Kish, Lagash, and Uruk.The question is this: Donkeys and their hybrids with other equines are were strong and durable than horses, but less fast, which raises the question: How were these animals used in warfare by the Sumerians and Akkadians?The answer lies in the type of warfare practiced at the time. Sumerian war chariots ≠ light chariots. Sumerian war chariots were heavy, with four solid wooden wheels. They were more like chariots for traction and transportation than the fast chariots introduced by the Non-IE Kassites after 1500 BC along horses (which the Sumerians called anše.kur.r, "donkeys of the mountains", since they came from the Zagros Mountains where the Kassites arose).
>>18020565>It wasn't an invasion. The Hyksos were Egyptboos. They adopted Egyptian culture to the point of declaring themselves pharaohsBy this logic the Arabs never invaded the Middle East, or the Mongols never invaded China, or Iran. Or Turkic peoples never invaded India. You can attempt to copy the locals without somehow just being accepted by them or by not invading them.
>>18020568Donkeys, onagers, and kungas were strong and durable, but not fast. They were not used for rapid maneuvers, but for transporting warriors (or armed elites) to the battlefield, directing attacks against slowly advancing enemy lines (like a rudimentary tank), ceremonies or demonstrations of power, especially in royal or religious contexts, and throwing archers or spears while moving, but their mobility was limited.>inb4 REEEEEEEEEEE THEY DIDN'T HAVE REAL WAR CHARIOTS! WE WUZ KASSITES AND SHIET!Copium to not accept that the Sumerians, without horses until 1500 BC, built a civilization before their Yamnaya cousins, who already had horses since 3500–3000, because the Neolithic Revolution was older in Mesopotamia/Levant than in Anatolia.The source for Kassites having an IE connection of some kind is some wignat quack from 1930. The funniest thing about this isn't even that, assuming the IE in the Middle East were Sintashta-descended, then that means Sintashta got raped by the Middle Easterners. Mitanni arrived in a power vacuum and settle some ruins, withn a few centuries they are raped out of existence by Semites, hue. Kassites met some IE Sintashta tribes and genocided them before looting the remains. Hyksos have non-IE kings and are maternally descended from IE Sintashta.
>>18020572Ignore the spamming, let it talk to itself.
>>18020589It's literally spam
>>18020568>>18020573Fun Fact: Seth was a donkey and the Hyksos introduced chariots in Egypt.>>18020572>By this logic the Arabs never invaded the Middle East, or the Mongols never invaded China, or Iran. Or Turkic peoples never invaded IndiaThe examples you listed only did this after the conquest, while the Hyksos already did this before taking Lower Egypt to legitimize themselves. If they were IE and IE is the superior culture, why didn't they do this in Egypt?>>18020589We Wuz Hyksos N' Shiet.
>>18020537>I'm absolutely sure they were HurriansWhy?
>>18020607
>>18020610
>>18020606>characterized by rulers with Amorite names such as YaqubFix'd.>Meruserre Yaqub-Har (other spelling: Yakubher, also known as Yak-Baal) was a pharaoh of Egypt during the 17th or 16th century BCE. As he reigned during Egypt's fragmented Second Intermediate Period, it is difficult to date his reign precisely, and even the dynasty to which he belonged is uncertain>In Exodus Decoded, filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici suggested that Yaqub-Har was the Patriarch Jacob, on the basis of a signet ring found in the Hyksos capital Avaris that read "Yakov/Yakub" (from Yaqub-her), similar to the Hebrew name of the Biblical patriarch Jacob (Ya'aqov). Jacobovici ignores the fact that Yaqub-Har is a well-attested pharaoh of the Second Intermediate Period; and Yakov and its variants are common Semitic names from the period. Furthermore, Jacobovici provides no explanation as to why Joseph would have a signet ring with the name of his father Jacob
>>18020609this book is interesting
>>18020622Thanks for sharing, would you have a PDF of the book?
>>18020627I only have isolated pages that I used a year ago, I got the link from the Genesisi bookstore but this disgusting site is having problems, it seems that the link is broken I don't know how to help in this case
>>18020631Library Genesis*
>>18020622>Ephraim Avigdor Speiser (January 24, 1902 – June 15, 1965) was a Jewish Polish-born American Assyriologist and translator of the Torah. He discovered the ancient site of Tepe Gawra in 1927 and supervised its excavation between 1931 and 1938>During World War II, Speiser left academia to become chief of the Office of Strategic Services' (OSS) Near East Section of the Research and Analysis Branch in Washington, D.C. This position earned him a Certificate of Merit. He was one of many American students and scholars of Orientalism who entered and served in the intelligence services during World War II>The OSS was dissolved a month after the end of the war. Intelligence tasks were soon resumed and carried over by its successors, the Strategic Services Unit (SSU), the Department of State's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), and the Central Intelligence Group (CIG), the intermediary precursor to the independent Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)>Beginning in 1955, Speiser joined the translation committee of the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) of America’s Bible translation project that produced an English version of the Torah>As Hitler and the Nazi party rose to power during the 1930s, Jews in America resisted anti-Semitism through the power of words. Works such as The Decay of Czarism and Legends of the Jews became staples of Jewish literacy and helped to preserve the legacy of European Jewry>During the latter half of the 20th century, JPS published a revised translation of the Bible, books detailing both war atrocities and triumphs, and books with a new-found focus on the State of IsraelLmao your source.
>>18019567It is plausible that there were Indo-Aryans among the Hyksos; an author has already written about this. But anyway, Whether they were in large numbers or not is another story, but the Egyptians have had problems with Indo-Aryans before, even managing to capture them in conflicts.Egypt continued its struggle against the Mitanni for generations. In the early 14th century, Egypt captured 550 maryannu, along with 820 chariots and 2,214 horses. we have several genetic outliers dating to the late 17th century in Meggido with steppe ancestry, one with y-chromosome R1a, The term Maryanu is etymological Indo-Aryan one designating "young males" or "young warriors
>>18020653>>18020622or perhaps the Hyksos were actually different allied groups under one banner? like the Sea Peoples? then it would explain the various arguments proposed about their identity but apparently Hyksos is a broad term that the Egyptians used
>>18020653Bump
>>18020653I didn't know that, what book did you use anon? And what exactly does this etymology imply?
>>18020658The evidence we have shows that they had noble ties and were a caste of chariot warriors. The source for this article is called>The Coming of the Greeks by Robert Drews>EtymologyWhat do you really want to know? Semantics? The same author comments on this, and there are other possible borrowings from other languages, such as Greek.The word "maryannu" comes from Hurrian Indo-Aryan and has a possible, but I'm skeptical, Hurrian suffix.It is formed by adding the suffix "-nni" to the root "márya," which means "young man" or "young warrior." Martin Weste suggested that the name "Meríones" (a character from the Homeric epic) is "identical" to the term "maryannu." But perhaps the parallel is merely etymological, since we're talking about a demigod character and an elite guerrilla fighter. But Meríones was a renowned archer and a charioteer(See Iliad Book 23, about Merione)And I can understand why people like him>>18020537 assume a Hurrian identity. Some of the maryannu have Hurrian names, according to Drews.
>>18020711Could it be that maryannu is related to the maruts?
>>18020711I think this anon is correct>>18020658Hyksos were an amalgam of 20-year-old incels, from Europeans to Hurrians and Semites, jus like the sea people
>>18020607They also brought khopesh/sickle swords to Egypt.>The khopesh (ḫpš; also vocalized khepesh) is an Egyptian sickle-shaped sword that developed from battle axes. The sword style originated in Western Asia during the Bronze Age and was introduced in the Second Intermediate Period. The khopesh became more common in the New Kingdom, and is often depicted with kings in statues and murals>The khopesh did not originate in Egypt and was a foreign technology that was introduced to Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period when the Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt. The Hyksos most likely originated from the Levant and brought new technological advances to Egypt. The Hyksos brought new techniques in pottery, bronze working, and weaving, they also brought new weapons like composite bows, chariots, and curved swords that were the precursors to the khopesh. The earliest known depiction of a khopesh is from the Stele of the Vultures, depicting King Eannatum of Lagash wielding the weapon; this would date the khopesh to at least 2500 BC. The khopesh likely evolved from the epsilon axe or sickle-shaped battle axes used in Sumer and Akkad (circa 3000–2000 BCE)>The height of the use of the khopesh was during the New Kingdom Dynasties in which warfare and imperial conquest were key features of the New Kingdoms. The khopesh fell out of use around 1300 BC. Ancient Egyptian soldiers carried the khopesh with various weapons such as axes, spears, maces, daggers, bows, and war chariots. Outside of active warfare, the khopesh is often featured alongside depictions of Kings as a symbol of power and conquest>Although some examples have clearly sharpened edges, many examples have dull edges that apparently were never intended to be sharp. It may therefore be possible that some khopeshes found in high-status graves were ceremonial variants. Various pharaohs are depicted with a khopesh, and some have been found in royal graves, such as the two examples found with Tutankhamun
>>18020726Since you mentioned the Sea Peoples, the Egyptians hired Maryannu as mercenaries against the Sea Peoples.>>18020653
>>18020711Doesn't Gernot Wilhelm have a book that talks about the Hyksos having Indo-Aryans in their ranks?
>>18020942Yes, he kind of relies on or quotes Drews anyway but I haven't read the book, to be fair is there anything in there that caught your attention?
I agree with you here (except the uninformed retards) but everything would be resolved with Hyksos samples
>>18020716Mayrhofer proposed some etymologies, such as the suffix "-उत्" (-ut, "breath"), derived from the root "वा" (vā, "to breathe"). This can be compared to the term "वात" (vāta, "wind")
>>18020954I agree, but until then, we have to look for other means without letting genetics overshadow everything. And I don't think we'll have Hyksos samples anyway.
The Indo-European hypothesis is largely dismissed because no genetic evidence supports it.
>>18019567Archaeological findings, especially by the Austrian archaeological institute in Tell El-Dab'a, the ancient Avaris (the Hyksos capital) have shown in great detail that there has been a steady immigration of Canaanites during the Middle Kingdom into the Delta. Eventually one of their clans managed to make pharaoh and rule much of the country. There is no sign of any kind of "invasion" or even hostility toward the egyptians. From the looks of it, the Thebans started the war and came up with "Egypt for Real Egyptians" propaganda.>In this study, Stantis and colleagues collected enamel samples from the teeth of 75 humans buried in the ancient Hyksos capital city of Tell el-Dab'a in the northeast Nile Delta. Comparing ratios of strontium isotopes in the teeth to environmental isotope signatures from Egypt and elsewhere, they assessed the geographic origins of the individuals who lived in the city. They found that a large percentage of the populace were non-locals who immigrated from a wide variety of other places. This pattern was true both before and during the Hyksos dynasty>The percentages of Egyptian‐style pottery at these sites varies between roughly 10 and 35% for the enclaves and up to 80–90% for the Egyptian‐dominated settlements, yet even the more modest numbers are significant. Indeed, the Syro‐Palestinian style pottery seen at Tell el‐Dab’a during the Fifteenth Dynasty—when this site served as the capital of the Levantine Hyksos kingdom based in the Eastern Delta of Egypt—only hovered between 30 and 40%!>Kamose, the last king of the Theban Seventeenth Dynasty, refers to Apepi as a "Chieftain of Retjenu" in a stela that implies a Levantine background for this Hyksos king. According to Anna-Latifa Mourad, the Egyptian application of the term ꜥꜣmw to the Hyksos could indicate a range of backgrounds, including newly arrived Levantines or people of mixed Levantine-Egyptian origin
>>18021000Yes, but the Hyksos dominated between 1500~1600 BC, we barely have samples from this period
>>18019567>There's no invasion Says the scholars....Pharaoh Kamose describes his reconquest of Egypt from the Hyksos:>I will not let you alone, I will not let you tread the ground without my being upon you. May your heart quake thereat, O miserable Asiatic. See, I am drinking the wine of your [own] vineyard which the Asiatics whom I have captured [have been forced to] press for me. I have destroyed your dwelling place, I have cut down your orchards. I have carried off your women to the holds [of the ships] and I have seized the chariot teams. I have not spared a plank of the three hundred ships of new cedar filled.. fine products of Retenu. I took them away entirely. I did not leave anything of Avaris for it was emptied out, O unfortunate Asiatic. Let your heart quake thereat, O miserable Asiatic, who used to say: I am a lord without equal as far as Hermopolis, and as far as the Temple of Hathor. My intention is to control Avaris between the two rivers. I will leave them laid waste without people there. I destroyed their towns, I burned their abodes, being made into desolate mounds forever because of the destruction which they made within Egypt, for they set themselves to hearken to the summons of the Asiatics, having betrayed Egypt, their mistress
>>18021103Pharaoh seeth and dilating kekat the same time, with all the Egyptian superiority, they were unable to repel the attacks at first and were even ruled for a while by the "miserable Asians" and were even influenced Hyksos bulls cause Egyptians to have a mental breakdown
>>18021000>>18021095we do not know who the Hyksos were
>>18021122Did anyone categorically state the opposite? I think you're not interpreting what was said correctly or you're confusing me with other posters.
There are idiots here who simply copied and pasted from Wikipedia to pose as experts. No, fools. First of all, we're far from truly knowing who they were. There are no genetic samples, and even then, we don't know.Archaeology is also scarce, and relying solely on Egyptian toponymic terms is vague, as Egyptian literature only states that they are "Asiatic," and anyone with knowledge beyond Wikipedia about Egypt would know that "Asiatic" was almost as broad as "barbarian" was to the Greeks. The archaeologist also didn't make categorical statements, only that they had similarities with peoples from the "Northern Levant," but that would imply people from the geographic region of the "Northern Levant," which encompasses southern Turkey, eastern Syria, and Lebanon. It's still very vague, and this region was by no means monocultural; it could have been any people. from Phoenicians, Arameans, and more, Egyptian sources apply the term "Hurrian" to the regions stretching from Palestine to Syria anyway. And when archaeologists say they were "Canaanites," it doesn't mean much. The so-called "Canaanites" were literally inhabitants of the Canaan region, which encompasses Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, and parts of Syria and Jordan. Is this useful as an example? It's a vague term like "Anatolian" or "Aegean," and they could be either.
>>18021165It's just a euphemism for saying>we don't know who they were
>>18019567all ancient dating and chronology should be questioned
>>18021035The same with all other theories
>>18021165exactly if archaeologists will be vague and bring inconclusive answers, they should keep quiet and let the geneticists speak.
>>18021165It's interesting that this author cites Tell Brak, it's very far north and I think they were "multiracial", not a single ethnicity.
>>18019567
>>18021188The region was once under the control of several groups, Akkad, and was once the center of Mitanni before being destroyed by Assyria. Several peoples inhabited this region. Reducing the entire Near East to "Semitic" is so outdated that it makes me anxious
>>18021194>>18021188Things get worse when you realize that all these terms are modern and there is no such thing as a "Semitic race" in the same way that there is no such thing as a "Mediterranean race" from Spain to Palestine.
>>18021188It seems that Akkadian was a lingua franca of the place but this further evidences that the place was not homogeneous
>>18020653There is a steppe cline running through Iran, the Levant and Egypt.
>>18021095>>18021165there is an elite sample from the First Intermediate Period to the Middle Kingdom 2125-1650 with 12% steppe quite high for an average of 0%
>>18021165Heka Khasut means literally rulers of foreign lands. The Amorites, during this period, ruled several regions of Syria, western Mesopotamia and Canaan. Their dynasties were established in Yamhad (Aleppo), Qatna, Mari on the banks of the Euphrates, and Babylon itself (which served as capital for the Amorite dynasty of Hammurabi). These lands were called Amurru (a broad term for the western region, including Syria), Akkad (the central plain of Mesopotamia where Babylon was located), and the Canaanite city-states, such as Byblos (Gebal), Ugarit, Hazor, and others, which orbited between Amorite influence. The Amorites ruled North Canaan most visibly between c. 2000–1600 BC, when Amorite tribes and chieftains settled in the region after the collapse of the Third Dynasty of Ur. It was during this period that Canaan was under the strong presence of Amorite elites and clans, coinciding with the height of Amorite rule in Mari, Yamkhad, and Babylon, and also with the time of the Hyksos in Egypt.>Ancient DNA analysis on 28 human remains dating to the Middle and Late Bronze Age from ancient Alalakh, an Amorite city with a Hurrian minority, found that the inhabitants of Alalakh were a mixture of Copper age Levantines and Mesopotamians, and were genetically similar to contemporaneous Levantines>According to ancient DNA analyses conducted by Skourtanioti et al. (2020) on 28 human remains from Tell Atchana belonging to the Middle and Late Bronze Age period (2006-1303 cal BC), the inhabitants of Alalakh were a mixture of Chalcolithic Levantines and Mesopotamians, and were genetically similar to contemporaneous Levantines from Ebla and Sidon. Out of twelve males, six carried haplogroup J1a2a1a2-P58, two carried J2a1a1a2b2a-Z1847, and four carried J2b2-Z2454, H2-P96, L2-L595 and T1a1-CTS11451 each
>>18021325>Seven more male individuals were analyzed by Ingman et al. (2021): three males carried J2a1a1a2, while four males carried J1a2a1a, T1a1a, E1b1b-CTS3346 and L1b-M349 each>A 2020 study published in Cell analyzed human remains from Chalcolithic Amuq valley as well as Bronze Age cities of Ebla and Alalakh in the Levant. The Chalcolithic inhabitants of Tell Kurdu in Amuq valley were modeled as a mixture of Neolithic Levantine, Anatolian and Zagros-related ancestries. On the other hand, the inhabitants of Ebla and Alalakh required additional Chalcolithic-era Iranian and Southern Levantine ancestry next to their Chalcolithic Amuq valley, implying additional input during the Late Chalcolithic–Early Bronze Age transition. The origins of the Bronze Age groups in the Amuq valley remain debated, despite numerous designations at the time (e.g., Amorites, Hurrians, Palaeo-Syrians). One hypothesis associates the arrival of these groups with climate-forced population movement during the 4.2-kiloyear event, a Mega Drought that led to the abandonment of the entire Khabur river valley in Upper Mesopotamia in search of habitable areas>Amorites at Hazor, Kadesh (Qadesh-on-the-Orontes), and elsewhere in Amurru (Syria) bordered Canaan in the north and northeast. (Ugarit may be included among these Amoritic entities.) The collapse of the Akkadian Empire in 2154 BC saw the arrival of peoples using Khirbet Kerak ware (pottery), coming originally from the Zagros Mountains (in modern Iran) east of the Tigris. In addition, DNA analysis revealed that between 2500 and 1000 BC, populations from the Chalcolithic Zagros and Bronze Age Caucasus migrated to the Southern Levant
>>18021165I emphasize
>>18021193Post more about the articleThe simplicity of reducing everything to "Northern Levantine" has already been explained by this anon.>>18021165I personally believe they were not a unified race.
>>18021193>>18021188>>18021165>>18020711I was looking at the thread and noticed that you mentioned the location of Tell Brak, if the Hyksos came from this region or regions adjacent to northern Mesopotamia, it could be there that they got the chariot technology from the Indo-Aryans/influence and *MAYBE* (I'll repeat, MAYBE) had some Aryans serving as charioteers, and I'm inclined to think that something like that could be possible. It's a plausible way, considering that the chariot didn't reach areas south of the Levant so late and in Egypt even later, tell brak was a very important Mitanni center.
>>18021325 >>18021331 The Amorites also brought the Cult of Hadad (Baal) to Canaan and Egypt. Hadad first appears as Eblaite Hadda in the territory in northern Syria conquered by the Amorites later. Ebla was ruled by kings such as Irkab-Damu (c. 2350 BC), who expanded the city’s political and economic power and under whose reign Hadda is often mentioned, and Ishar-Damu (c. 2340–2300 BC), the last major king before Ebla’s destruction (traditionally attributed to Sargon of Akkad or his grandson Naram-Sin). The Eblaite archives, written in a Semitic language closely related to Akkadian and later Amorite/Canaanite dialects, confirm that the royal dynasty of Ebla was East Semitic rather than Sumerian, Hurrian or IE along genetics: >>18021331 >Hadad (Ugaritic: 𐎅𐎄, romanized: Haddu), Haddad, Adad (Akkadian: 𒀭𒅎 DIM, pronounced as Adād), or Iškur (Sumerian) was the storm- and rain-god in the Canaanite and ancient Mesopotamian religions. He was attested in Ebla as "Hadda" in c. 2500 BCE>Hadad was also called Rimon/Rimmon, Pidar, Rapiu, Baal-Zephon, or often simply Baʿal>Eblaite (/ˈɛblə.aJt, ˈiːblə-/, also known as Eblan ISO 639-3), or Palaeosyrian, is an extinct East Semitic language used during the 3rd millennium BC in Northern Syria. It was named after the ancient city of Ebla, in modern western Syria>The second Ebla (c.2300 BC–c.2000 BC) was a continuation of the first, ruled by a new royal dynasty. It was destroyed at the end of the 3rd millennium BC, which paved the way for the Amorite tribes to settle in the city, forming the third Ebla (c.2000 BC–c.1600 BC)>Temples in Avaris existed both in Egyptian and Levantine style, the latter presumably for Levantine gods. The Hyksos are known to have worshiped the Canaanite storm god Baal, who was associated with the Egyptian god Set. Set appears to have been the patron god of Avaris as early as the Fourteenth Dynasty
>>18021626>The Amorites also brought the Cult of Hadad (Baal) to Mesopotamia, Canaan and EgyptFix'd.>From the Levant, Hadad was introduced to Mesopotamia by the Amorites, where he became known as the Akkadian (Assyrian-Babylonian) god Adad
>>18021419Good point
>>18021035We don't have a lot of publicly available Ancient Egyptian samples period. There's like 5 I could find G25 coordinates for and one was ~12% steppe from 2100BC. That's similar to Mycenaeans. This sample is not isolated. It's part of a larger cline involving Iran, Israel, and Anatolia/the Caucasus.If we don't have many public Ancient Egyptian samples to begin with, then the default assumption should be the Hyksos are unsampled and we don't know the immediate source of the steppe gene flow. The Hyksos might have spoken an IE language for all we know, even if you assume their steppe ancestry was low.
>>18021819>brown>migrant (invader)>jew But let's stop talking about the Hyksos.>Josephus, and most of the writers of antiquity, associated the Hyksos with the Jews. Quoting from Manetho's Aegyptiaca, Josephus states that when the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, they founded Jerusalem (Contra Apion I.90). It is unclear if this is original to Manetho or Josephus's own addition, as Manetho does not mention "Jews" or "Hebrews" in his preserved account of the expulsion. Josephus's account of Manetho connects the expulsion of the Hyksos to another event two hundred years later, in which a group of lepers led by the priest Osarseph were expelled from Egypt to the abandoned Avaris. There they ally with the Hyksos and rule over Egypt for thirteen years before being driven out, during which time they oppress the Egyptians and destroy their temples. After the expulsion, Osarseph changes his name to Moses (Contra Apion I.227-250). Assmann argues that this second account is largely a mixture of the experiences of the later Amarna period with the Hyksos invasion, with Osarseph likely standing in for Akhenaten. The final mention of Osarseph, in which he changes his name to Moses, may be a later interpolation. The second account is sometimes held not to have been written by Manetho at all
>>18021827Correct
Keep ignoring the spammers, they try hard to lie and get attention but they are ignored, do this and one day things will go back to Cuba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)>Haplogroup J has also been found among two ancient Hyksos-related mummies excavated at the Abusir el-Meleq archaeological site in Middle Egypt, which date from a period between the late New Kingdom and the Roman eraIEsisters... Not like this.
With that, friends, I confirm that spammers should be ignored, especially when they're too dumb to read beyond the Wikipedia link.1. There are no Hyksos samples.2. The Wikipedia link leads to the study "Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods."3. The study at no point states that Hyksos samples were analyzed. In fact, the word "Hyksos" appears only ONCE in the entire study.Spammer bros? Why are we so dumb?
>>18021914the "thing" tried to ruin the thread and see how no one paid attention to it, there was no contribution here and like everywhere, it was reaffirmed as a liar... I don't know why these types of people lose with this. anyway, BTFO'd not even whatever the magical black god helped this guy
>>18021827I can get even 18% steppe according the model, we can see differences using yamnaya or bell beakers as proxy
>>18021914and it's very vague, without samples we don't know what they were like, these terms Canaanite, Asian, etc. are useless
>>18021920Yes, I know, and that's why I've been avoiding talking about it since I joined this thread. The Syrians were called "Retjenu," but the problem is that it was a general term that could be used for several peoples, including the Hyksos.Retjenu is referred to as a geographic area, not as a specific people.
>>18021918Sure, the important thing is just that it's hard to deny the steppe gene flow made it all the way to Egypt, so there's likely an unsampled source population which wandered around.
>>18021926Like who?
>>18021930The unsampled source population? It might be the Hyksos. Nobody really knows how or why the steppe genes were moving around—as in no direct source population has been pinpointed. We could use more ancient samples all over the place in Egypt, Israel, and Iran.
>>18021936I think the most ideal would be to use Hyksos samples from Egypt itself rather than the "homeland." As other anons have demonstrated here, archaeology has revealed several possibilities, from places as far north as Syria to locations near Canaan. Well, why did I say that the essential would be Hyksos samples from Egypt? Because we must remember that they kept Egypt under political control for a considerable amount of time, so I would look for, of course, the Egyptians were supremacists (like everyone at the time) and, just as they did with Akhenaten and his beautiful faith, they would have tried their best to censor and tarnish their image in some way, perhaps even selling the tombs. But as I said, it's more likely we find Hyksos in Egypt than in their homeland. I imagine they weren't very steppe, to be fair, but they acquired steppe technology somehow. There were some interactions. Some have mentioned the possibility of the Mitanni, which I think is fair.
>>18021936We need first Mitanni samples to use as possible proxy for any middle eastern IE
>>18021914>>18021916Cope.>The affinity to the Middle East finds further support by the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa (Supplementary Table 3)Here's what your screenshot is hiding:>The ancient DNA data revealed a high level of affinity between the ancient inhabitants of Abusir el-Meleq and modern populations from the Near East and the Levanthttps://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694#MOESM113 is explaining the presence of these haplogroups in Egypt with the Hyksos.>Especially from the second millennium BCE onwards, there were intense, historically- and archaeologically documented contacts, including the large-scale immigration of Canaanite populations, known as the Hyksos, into Lower Egypt, whose origins lie in the Middle Bronze Age LevantTo prove what I'm saying:>The metal analyses and the technical aspects lead us to the hypothesis that the bracelets are not of early Egyptian date. Interestingly, the necropolis of Abusir el-Meleq was re-used during the Hyksos-Period as well as during the Late Period and Greco-Roman Times (Rubensohn and Knatz 1904; Scharff 1926; Kuckertz and Schmidt 2013: 45–49). During the excavation, Möller found indications of Hyksos, as well as Greco-Roman disturbances in several of the Predynastic burials (Möller 1907; Scharff 1926: 12–13; 84–105)>At last there are eight so-called Hyksos burials in Abusir el-Meleq. These are the only finds implying a possible Hyksos presence in the Memphis-Fayoum region and are as such rather meagre
>>18021936>>18021918what sample with steppe are you talking about?
>>18021962Djehutynakht sample
>>18021936>>18021943There are some Hyksos tombs, yes, but no DNA has been extracted from these sites, but the Egyptians reused these tombs, but I agree that searching for the Hyksos homeland is somewhat pointless at this point they were mostly in avaris
>>18021958https://thehyksosenigma.oeaw.ac.at>The Hyksos Enigma Project, with its eight interrelating research tracks, has attempted to recreate, in holistic interpretations, the rise of the Hyksos in the 15th dynasty and of their predecessors by engaging in current theoretical and methodological thinking modes. The analysis of skeletal remains from Tell el-Dabʻa, compared to osteological series from other sites in the Levant, offers another avenue of evidence in the discussion of the nature and impact of the Hyksos. It is a multidisciplinary approach, combining non-destructive macroscopic (dental nonmetric and palaeopathological traits) and biochemical (stable isotopes and ancient DNA) analyses together with the full scope of the archaeological record. Thus it becomes possible to construct, to some extent, the population’s history and individual life stories. The stable isotope analysis of 75 individuals from Tell el-Dabʻa showed that over half of all individuals (53%) spent their childhood outside the Nile Delta. Of those individuals for whom sex estimation was possible, 78% of females and 50% of males displayed 87Sr/86Sr values outside the local values. The wide range of values suggests that non-locals, before or during Hyksos rule, did not come from a unified homeland, but an extensive variety of geographic origins. This is interesting, as the population interred at Tell el-Dabʻa appears to represent a multicultural hub throughout the site’s occupation. This is shown by the results of the Dental Nonmetric Traits that exhibited little change in the biological affinities of the Tell el-Dabʻa population from the end of Middle Kingdom throughout the Second Intermediate PeriodI can't wait for them to release Hyksos samples and the IE supremacists enter suicide watch.
>>18021979>Thus it becomes possible to construct, to some extent, the population’s history and individual life stories. The stable isotope analysis of 75 individuals from Tell el-Dabʻa showed that over half of all individuals (53%) spent their childhood outside the Nile Delta. Of those individuals for whom sex estimation was possible, 78% of females and 50% of males displayed 87Sr/86Sr values outside the local valuesFurther proof that it was migration. There were also many women and children among the Sea Peoples.
>>18021165>>18021936We already have DNA studies of the Northern and Southern Levant, showing repeated migrations from Mesopotamia to the Levant in the 3rd and 2nd millennia BC, including Semitic groups such as the Amorites, but about the thread, unlike some states, the relationship with the Hyksos is still uncertain and within contradiction.
>>18021962It was actually already posted in the thread here: >>18021221It's the one that is labeled 2100 BC. It can be modeled several different ways.
>>18019567They were refugees escaping famines and 77% of them were females
>>18022005Much steppe from an Egyptian
>>18021993But did those DNA studies explain why there is steppe gene flow in Israel? Like what you see here: >>18021221If nothing has explained it yet, there must be unsampled populations. They might have even been nomadic so their burials could be sparse and scattered.
>>18021914Lol this guy is so problematic those threads about Spain were made by him too
>>18022022That's what I just posted: >>18021982>Contrary to the model of the Hyksos coming to power from a foreign invasion, we did not find more males moving into the region. Gender parity would have been expected with families moving as economic opportunities arose, but instead we find a sex bias towards females. The greater proportion of non-local females compared to males could fit with patrilocality in Egypt and the Near East , but this rather high proportion of 77% of females as non-local deserves more careful contextual consideration>The excavated cemeteries and domestic burials are assumed to be more representative of the elites of the city rather than the ‘common’ population, and it is possible that these women are coming to the region for marriages cementing alliances with powerful families from beyond the Nile. During the Middle Kingdom and Second Intermediate Period, there is more documentation of men with Egyptian names marrying women with non-Egyptian names than vice versa. This attitude towards marriage to foreign families continues into the 18th Dynasty, foreign women could marry into high status Egyptian families, but Egyptian women would not marry foreign kings. It would be interesting if the technological and cultural transmission of the Hyksos dynasty on later Egyptian culture could be viewed through the lens of gender theory to explore this potential contribution from the influx of immigrant women, if the collection analyzed in this paper is indeed representative of the larger migration patterns
>>18022029I can only think of Mittani, who else do you have in mind?>>18022037Shh Silence, watch the showSameflag is talking to himself and thinking no one noticed.
>>18022060>MittaniThat's one possibility. There might also be something that branched out of proto-Armenians.
>>18022066some say Kassites and Gutians, but the Middle East is not well defined
>>18022060You know the guy is crazy when he gets caught lying in his citations and, even worse, he cites 1000% biased articles with clear confirmation bias.My contribution to showing our friend's irrelevance is so you know what kind of author the oludum uses.
>>18022079>imperalismThere's not much to say here after that, the person needs to lower themselves to a level that not even Lazaridis reached to masturbate with this type of "source" (it's not a source) we can discard the opinion 100%. We don't argue with libtards
>>18022085>not even Lazaridis reachedCope. Lazaridis debunked the white race thing.https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1889047221309510060.html
>>18022079Kek
>>18022072Need samples
>>18022043Btw women. Here's a nice piece of Minoan artwork from Avaris in Egypt. It was made in the period of Thutmosis III, but could be Hatshepsut who ordered the work to be made. Originally it was thought that this was Hykysos, but where it is located is an extension to a Hyksos palace added around the time of Thutmosis.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_frescoes_from_Tell_el-Dab'aZeus was a historical king of Greece, who according to historians, lived before the Thera Eruption and the Ogygian Deluge. According to Diodorus and all other historians Zeus was the ruler of the whole world. He ruled from Europe to India. In the Battle of the Gods and Giants, Zeus fled to Egypt. Zeus is given in Egyptian kings lists and inscriptions as Sheshi. This name corresponds to the Minoan king Saasitepi (Ausstaeb/Istaveon).There were actually two Zeus. Zeus I, the brother of Uranus was ruler of Crete whereas Zeus II the son of Kronos was the ruler of the whole world including Greece and Egypt.This Zeus was a corruption of the Proto-Greek Sdiwi-os/on. Proto-Greek existed in the time of the Minoans. Sdiwi-os/on is the same as Istaveon which is the same as Ausstaeb which is the same as Saasitepi which is the same as Sheshi.In Egypt he was known as Sheshi. Sheshi appears in Minoan king lists as or Saa[si]tepi king of Lato and Tiliss in 1650 BC, ie. Lyctos and Tylissos both of which are credited as the places where Zeus was born and grew up.Zeus/Saasi--/Saa--tepi who reigned in his home town in Crete after Satur (Saturn/Kronos) and the Egyptian Pharaoh Sheshi both reigned in the same period. This not only corroborates that Zeus reigned in Greece but that the also reigned in Egypt as all Greek historians have said. The fact that the Hyksos were foreign invaders adds to the evidence that Sheshi was Zeus.
>>18022130Saasitepi was the sucessor of Satur who reigned between about 1725 and 1675 BC, ie Saturn or Kronos the father of Zeus/Jupiter.In 1674 BC after a 10 year long war the Cretan King Saasitepis or Lato known to the Achaean Greeks as Zeus-Deus, conquered Knossos and deposed its king Satur who the Achaeans called Cronos and who also ruled Egypt.Saasitepis then proceeded to Egypt and ruled under the titles of Sheshi, Salatis and Shalik which are extant in Egyptian Inscriptions and in Manetho.In 1667 BC Io (or Ioun) the daughter of Inachus has a son with Zeus Epaphus, Apopis, or Apepi I ruled from 1645 until 1627 according to Manetho when he was murdered by his fathers first wife. This coincided with the The Eruption.Since Serapis was also Apis who was the brother of Pelasgus the son of Niobe this indicates a colonization of Crete by the Pelasgians. All of the Peloponnese was called Apia after Apis but he only controls one city in Crete.After the Pelasgains came in 1600 BC the Cratan culture was subsumed but the memory of Zeus was still there. There was no formal worship until the Greek Egyptian Hyksos came at the time of Danuas and Aegyptus (Turmoses III) who were supposed to be decended from Zeus via Io the daughter of Inachus who was the Grandfather of Pelasgus. The Pelasgians are said to have instititued the worship of Zeus on the Greek mainland, ie at Dodona and on Mt Lukaon in Arcadia.Lyceon was Lycaon king of Arcadia, the king who the Mount Lycaon where his alter stood was named after. Lycaon lived about 200 years after Zeus of Crete. He was the first to introduce the Zeus cult to Arcadia. Notice the title Zeus on his name. After the worship of Zeus is instituted, Zeus becomes being used as a title for the kings of Greece just like Amon was used as a title by the kings of Egypt.
>>18022133In later myths the original Poets who lived in Mycenaean times inserted the names of earlier Gods because all the kings were called by the names of these Gods in their titles just like all the Roman Emperors were called Caesar and Augustus who were both regarded as Gods.Later poets like Homer took these earlier texts and decided to make the Gods whose names were already appear in the form of the Hero that bore their name for example Zeus Nestor visting Agamemnon in his tent in the night became Zeus appearing to Agamemnon in the form of Nestor in a dream.Homer inserted the names of the Gods in place to the kings that fought at Troy as so added to the mythology of the Gods something which was unheard-of and not part of the religion at the time of the Trojan War itself.
test
>The view that Amorites were fierce and tall nomads led to an anachronistic theory among some racialist writers in the 19th century that they were a tribe of "Aryan" warriors, who at one point dominated the Israelites. This belief, which originated with Felix von Luschan, fit models of Indo-European migrations posited during his time, but Luschan later abandoned that theory. Houston Stewart Chamberlain claims that King David and Jesus were both Aryans of Amorite extraction. The argument was repeated by the Nazi ideologue Alfred Rosenberg>In the Marriage of Martu, a Sumerian creation myth in which the blushing bride weds an Amorite ("Martu" in Sumerian), the stereotype is personified:>“The Amorite he is dressed in sheep skins: he lives in tents in wind and rain; He doesn’t offer sacrifices. Armed vagabond in the steppes, he digs up truffles and is restless. He eats raw meat. Lives without a home; And when he dies, he is not buried according to proper rituals.">"The Martu who know no grain...The martu who know no house nor town, the boors of the mountains...The martu who digs up truffles...who does not bend his knees to cultivate the land, who eats raw meat, who has no house during his lifetime, who is not buried after death."
