This guy single-handedly rewrote Christianity to be some pop culture space drama. Because of him, most Christians today think they’re battling a primordial lizard alien, instead of against the harmful impulses in themselves. Press (S) to spit.
>>18022953>single-handedly rewrote Christianity to be some pop culture space dramaI'd give that achievement to this asshole.
>>18022957Him too but at least he was still emphasizing the personal battle against sin instead of this tacky opera about some ancient entity that somehow caused you to beat your meat again
>>18022957You would be wrong to do that since the only thing he added to popular culture is the idea that not only heaven, but hell too has segments. It changes nothing. Milton, on the other hand, misled people about the overall biblical narrative in terms of angle.s
>>18022962>It changes nothing and didn't add anything Dante's inferno is what mixed Lucifer with Satan.This crap fanfic is where "lucifer's pride against humans is the reason he was struck down" idea comes from. If anything, Dante's inferno personified Satan before John Milton did. I mean fuck man, Satan is depicted as a giant monkey demon and is literally eating Judas in the bottom layer of hell.
In many ways Christianity has been larp since Dante. Also, Milton is very clear that Satan is the villain in his story, but the problem is his deep christian beliefs which perceived evil as that heroic Promethean/Faustian spirit that made Satan in that book seem appealing. It's why William Blake said of him that he "was of the Devil's party without knowing it".
>>18022960>>18022972>The dragon in Revelation is regarded as Satan from the moment the text explicitly identifies it as such in Revelation 12:9, stating, "the great dragon was thrown down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan". The Apostle John leaves no room for ambiguity by providing multiple names for this adversary—"the serpent of old," "the devil," and "Satan"—making it clear that the dragon is not a new entity but the same evil force referenced in Genesis and other biblical texts.>>18022976>le faustian spiritNo anon, Jesus does not want you to make deals with the devil. Satan has plenty of ambition, but the 1 thing he doesn't have is humility.
>>18022953It didn't really affect Catholics since it was placed on the index.
>>18022978Not sure what you are talking about, but by Faustian spirit it's the germanic spirit that overthrew idolatry and exposed the bible for what it is: a work of fiction
>>18022972>Dante's inferno is what mixed Lucifer with Satan.Merging Lucifer, Satan, Devil and whoever else happens at various points in various places. It might be the case that in the West he was the one to solidify it, but its role in this conflation is nowhere near pivotal in general.>where "lucifer's pride against humans is the reason he was struck down" idea comes from.Not sure about "against humans", but the idea that Satan misses humility (and that it's the one domain where humans can outperform him) is already attested in the 4th century by Moses the Strong.>If anything, Dante's inferno personified Satan before John Milton did.Personified? I'm gonna have to ask for a clarification there because the Satan is personal in the Bible already.>Satan is depicted as a giant monkey demon and is literally eating Judas in the bottom layer of hell.That might be the case, but it changes little about laymen's understanding of the grand scheme of things or of their practical approach. Might as well been a donkey demon with four ears, it's a meaningless impact on the culture.
>>18022985>unchecked ambition and no humility is le heroicIf you're a teenager.
>>18022972Dante's inferno also popularized the idea that Satan is in hell. Which is not true.
>>18023003That is fair. Though I'm not sure an average church-going grandma would tell you that Satan is currently locked up somewhere with no influence on the world.
>>18022989Capital “S” Satan is consistently portrayed in Scripture as a spirit, i.e. an impulse, not an entity. The being that tempted Christ for instance was called “a devil,” as it was a personal being, acting in the spirit of Satan, i.e. acting in rebellion against God. A spirit is not local nor conscious, it’s wherever that impulse is. The spirit of Satan is in every murder, every rape, every evil act—the actor is never himself a person called Satan, it is the spirit of Satan in a person that causes him to commit evil.
>>18022993Sure bud. Say that to all of Europe in the last four centuries
>>18023011>a spirit, i.e. an impulse, not an entityThat is false. Spirits are not sub-personal, that's a very buddhist-new-age-jungian sort of reading. > A spirit is not local Perhaps>nor consciousSource?Does John 4:24 say God is merely an impulse?
>>18023015Industrial society and its consequences.
>>18023011see >>18022978
>>18022976Tradcaths and some orthobros claim it is all Luther's fault but christianity was already getting weaker since the renaissance. Heremticism already spread before that. It was only a matter of time until pantheism and deism became a thing among the elite.
>>18023020Spirit is a disposition toward certain manners of action over others. To be “mean-spirited” is to be disposed toward acting meanly, to be “kind-spirited” is to be disposed toward acting kindly. To have the Holy Spirit is to be disposed toward acting in holy ways, avoiding sin. >God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.God is a Spirit, an impetus acting throughout the world and in us. He acts in us as a spirit replacing our own will to drive us toward Him. He is also the active and personal Creator, and our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ. Spirit is one part of the Trinity.
>>18022960Have you considered that Milton’s work was still about the internal battle against yourself and used the satan story as allegory?Is this your first time encountering literature before? Writers being symbolic is pretty much par for the coarse anon I mean what possessed you to make this dumb ass thread? Have you never learned how to analyze literature before? He was literally a poet ffs not a nonfiction writer
>>18022960Ancient entities do try to be getting your meat beat or eat. That is why incels are so powerful despite being bottom of the totem pole. Sexual energy is strong in the celibate Nofapper.
>>18022962>hell too has segments.That's what buddhsits also claimed before christianity even existed. Fiery and icy hell realms. Different layers and different punishments for different sins. But for them hell is not eternal just a very very long time.
>>18023044To be mean-spirited or kind-spirited implies your own spirit (both conscious and personal) is channeled in a mean or a kind way. To have the Holy Spirit means to literally have the personal God inhabit you. Again, your reading is essentially Jungian and psychologizes the f*ck out of religion. Religion isn't there to provide dictionary about moods and tendencies. It's there to show you something higher and MORE personal than your current self. One of such things is the Holy Spirit.>God is... an impetusGod produces an impetus. If you consider him to be a force per se, you're an atheist.
>>18023048Have you never left your house? Huge majority of living Christians believe the space opera version of the story. Milton did serious damage to the faith.
>>18023064To see you struggling to read your preconceived new age nonsense into my responses has blinded you to the point I was making, and you seem to have forgotten about the concept of the Trinity entirely
>>18022978>the serpent of oldSounds a bit like the snake in the garden of Eden or the Leviathan.
>>18023072>it’s Milton’s fault the common people aren’t very brightOk
>>18023081Explicitly called Satan. Wow seems like Revelation is personalizing Satan!
>>18023079Brother, "spirit is a disposition" is the new age nonsense and you wrote that shit verbatim.> you seem to have forgotten about the concept of the Trinity entirelyI definitely don't remember the three "dispositions" of the Trinity. I remember the three persons. Implying, unsurprisingly, personhood.
Martin Luther was thoroughly obsessed with Satan so I don't think this idea originated with Milton.
>>18023090The concept of satan seems to be zoroastrian in nature. He was just an angel send by God to test humans in old judaism a bit like how Goethe depicts him in Faust.
>>18023103Except the dragon in Revelation goes to wage war against God in heaven.
>>18023119>Except the dragon in Revelation goes to wage war against God in heaveneternal battle between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3dzKfonqDstime to repost the biblical origins of satan video
>>18023095>the three personsI could’ve guessed you’re a Catholic, lmao. One is a spirit, one is a person, and one is our Creator —these are different things. God doesn’t have three talking heads you dope.
>>18023225>is retardedI could've guessed you were protestant. "three persons" in this context refers to three distinct centers of intellect, emotion, and will. Not that each of them has 2 eyes and a nose, retard.
>>18023225Not Catholic. Just Christian. >God doesn't have three talking headsNo, he has three persons who all speak at different points in the NT.
>>18023235You are a polytheist. We Christians have only One God.
>>18023256As do I. One God in three persons. I will try to respect your beliefs, but I can tell you outright, they are not Christian. The Holy Spirit isn't a divinde tendency and none of the Early Christians thought so.
>>18022953Not his fault his writings are better than the Bible.
>>18023274It absolutely is the part of Him that works in you to change your behaviors and tendencies, that is clear in Scripture. You’ve been misled by people who came centuries later and misunderstood the text to mean that the Spirit is different and separate from the Father and Son, that the Spirit has a mind and will of His own, that these therefore become three separate persons acting in unity, rather than one single God, Father of all things. His Spirit works in you to make you act in ways that please Him, but the words you hear are His Word which built the world, and the One who gives these to us is our loving Father, who is love Himself.
>>18023309>It absolutely is the part of Him that works in you to change your behaviors and tendencies, that is clear in ScriptureThe Scripture never calls the Spirit a "part". It is God proper.>You’ve been misled>Spirit is different and separate from the Father and Son>has a mind and will of His ownThe Spirit is distinct, but not separate and their wills, although I suppose technically "their own" are in unison. Overall you don't really have to explain non-trinitarian theology. I looked into that and I don't find it convincing. It would be incredibly convenient for me to think of God as one person with "parts" that works more or less as I myself do and I'd get to psychologize not only my spirit, but very spirit in heavens. But that's convenience-based bullshit.Be that as it may, my goal is not to convince you of the Trinity. My goal is to show you that although you might personally find great comfort in psychologizing the term "spirit", it's an anachronistic move and it doesn't conform to how Christians, Jews, mystics, philosophers or really anyone else generally used the term.
>christians having a discussion about theological gibberish
>>18023331>1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;>Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.>Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.>1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.>Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:>James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.>Isaiah 43:10 - Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.>Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.>Jude 1:25 - To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.>Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.>Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:>John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.No, your bishops and priests don’t supersede or supplant the Word of God
>>18023346>There is one GodAgreed. In three persons. Also, please reconsider reddit spacing.
>>18023349Stop playing dumb and read the verses
>>18023367I did. You even kindly included the one that shows God is multiple persons: John 10:30You're offering me "God is one" and I take it. If you have something to offer on top of that, I am all ears.
>>18023370Ok then we’ll call it being deceptive instead of dumb, if you prefer. Three persons aren’t one God. You’re implicitly redefining “person” to mean something other than and subordinate to personhood, and I’m not buying it. I don’t think our lurkers are either.
>>18023374My bad I assumed you were familiar with trinitarian theological terms when trying to discuss the trinity. I am indeed not saying God is three human beings in the colloquial sense. Humans would be a very degenerated borderline case of personhood and would only attain it upon becoming holy. Like I wrote in >>18023331, I'm not particularly concerned if you buy it or not, my point was "spirit" cannot be psychologized as though ancient people were Jungians assigning mythological characters to represent their impulses. It were the impulses that represented (and manifested) the spirits.
>>18022957Such an awesome story, I recommend the John Ciardi translation.
My dad could beat up your dad!
>It's an "OP asserts his unique interpretation of the Christianity is what everyone believed until some jerk(s) came along and corrupted the faith" thread (Milton hate edition)
