>>18023871
Before that millenium there was no Irish national identity.

>>18023871
And now they are throwing it all away for infinity niggers lol

>>18023904
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49lAZPE2ELE

>it's actually pretty impressive they managed to survive as a national identity after taking nothing but straight L's for over a millennia
The "irish national identity" was invented by british protestant whigs
>over a millenia
English control of ireland was only completed in the 1600s. No, you haven't been "fighting the british for 800 years"
>national identity
99% of what you consider "irish" is the direct result of british subjucation of ireland
>irish accent is just elizabethan english accent
>all their music is just english music, fiddles were adopted from english settlers
>the flat cap was invented in northern english
>craic is just the english word crack
>all their famous people are just british protestants

>>18023891
there were irish people, an irish language and irish culture but no irish “national identity”. there was no french or german national identity until the 18th century either.

>>18023941
doesn’t invalidate irish versions of those things as part of their own culture

i would argue that anglophone irish culture is a subset of british or anglo-american but there was definitely an old irish gaelic culture and language that has since been made historically redundant.

>>18023942
>an irish language and irish culture
Shared with Dal Riata.
>there was no french or german national identity until the 18th century
Wrong.

>>18023904
UK has way more niggers kek cry harder sc*t troon

>>18023945
>randomly bringing up dal riada
hello asf
>no german or french identity
you don’t understand what modern nationalism is. there were no “italians” either.

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>>18023947
it’s one bloke obsessed with tribal identities of people in medieval britain and specifically the origin and spread of gaelic. he’s a retard that’s been doing this for years and has a weird intense hatred for irish people. biggest example of pic rel.

>>18023942
Not this mental retardation again.
>We have 12th century Hansa documents from 11th century explicitly mentioning the German nation
>Countless kings and dukes were rulers of people ie king of the franks
Nationalism meant that these identities became the forefront of politics, but that does not mean they didn't exist before 1792

>>18023958
We have documents mentioning “High Kings” of Ireland too, legal and religious texts referring to the Irish as one ethnic group or “nation” of the Earth. So your point is moot. Just because they didn’t all share one political identity doesn’t mean they couldn’t identify themselves as a wider nation native to one place.

>>18023953
>hello asf
I don't know who that is, but I did not randomly bring it up, you claimed Irish culture and language goes way back, but if something is not peculiar to Ireland it is at the very least misleading to call it Irish.
>you don’t understand what modern nationalism is
You don't understand what national identity is. They did not appear out of thin air, people have identified with them for centuries, if not millenia, before modern nationalism, just not to the same extent.
The Irish national identity too goes further back than the 18th century btw, but not since before the English arrived.

>>18023967
We can’t entirely rule out Dal Riada to being a colony of Irish settlers in Britain. Or it may have just have been a point of a linguistic continuum. It is worth noting that Irish and Scottish Gaelic were intelligible up until the High Middle Ages and the Lowlanders used to call the Highlanders “Erse” (Irish)

What type of culture are you referring to and when do you think it arose? In both Ireland and northern Britain (Scotland)

>>18023974
Atleast until the Lowlanders took over Scotland I reckon that Ulster was culturally and linguistically much more similair to western Scotland than to Munster.

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>>18023966
Yeah nigga that's what i'm saying, nations (as in groups of people) existed since the middle ages, they have nothing to do with states

>>18023871
>nothing but straight L's for over a millennia

Like what?

>>18023871
>taking nothing but straight L's for over a millennia
Not really. The Irish won a lot of battles against the Vikings and against the Normans, and the whole of Ireland was only under English control for around 300 years.
>>18023891
>>18023941
>>18023942
Irish national identity predates the existence of an English national identity and can be seen in the writings of the early Christian Irish monks. You make the mistake of thinking that because Ireland was politically fragmented that the people lacked a common national identity, this isn't true. They had a common language, culture, legal code, and a common identity as Gaels or Irish.

>>18023953
Read "Nationalism: The Politics of Identity" by Keith Woods.

>>18023941
>The "irish national identity" was invented by british protestant whigs

Like what?
>>18023941

>English control of ireland was only completed in the 1600s. No, you haven't been "fighting the british for 800 years"

Fight the Normans/English for 800 years not under their control. They resisted and fought long enough that it took from 1172 to 1603 until the country was under complete English control. >>18023941
>>irish accent is just elizabethan english accent

There is no Irish accent there's dozens of accents in Ireland. What one are you speaking of?

>>all their music is just english music,
Really? All those songs in the Irish language are really just English music? The places and people mentioned on them Ireland is just English music... Ok

>fiddles were adopted from english settlers

The earliest reference to a "fiddle" in Ireland dates back to the 7th century. It's the violin your thinking of but there has been instruments like it used in Ireland since ancient times. The violin only became popular in later times and the same tunes as was played on older types of stringed violin like instruments would have been played on the violin when it became more popular not just in Ireland but throughout Europe.

>>the flat cap was invented in northern english

Flat caps aren't a part of Irish culture they're just caps and only worn in the past hundred years or whatever. Find something else to cry about and I know you did hard for it too and are seething

>>craic is just the english word crack
And?
>>all their famous people are just british protestants

Really all of them? Shut the fuck up you tranny freak.

>>18024074
>the Irish won a lot of battles against the Vikings
lost all the major ones untill the English uprooted their powerbase in York
>and against the Normans
still got half the island conquered by them
>and the whole of Ireland was only under English control for around 300 years.
before which England "merely" owned the fealty of every prince and ruled its one true city

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>>18024077
>Like what?
are you unaware of wolfe tone?
>Fight the Normans/English for 800 years not under their control. They resisted and fought long enough that it took from 1172 to 1603 until the country was under complete English control. >>18023941
Retard doesn't realise the normans assimilated to irish society and became "more irish than the irish themselves."
>There is no Irish accent there's dozens of accents in Ireland. What one are you speaking of?
Any english accent in ireland is a result of english colonisation you spastic
>Really? All those songs in the Irish language are really just English music? The places and people mentioned on them Ireland is just English music... Ok
danny boy is literally an english folk song
>It's the violin your thinking
Fiddles are violins
>Flat caps aren't a part of Irish culture they're just caps and only worn in the past hundred years or whatever. Find something else to cry about and I know you did hard for it too and are seething
Irish websites literally sell "irish" flat caps.
Go to ireland and you'll see shops selling tourist tat "irish" caps
>And?
Why did you have to change the spelling to a false irish version?
>Really all of them?
Yup

>>18024710
>are you unaware of wolfe tone?

Wtf does he have to do with creating Irish identity that was around millenia before he was born?

>>18024710
>Retard doesn't realise the normans assimilated to irish society and became "more irish than the irish themselves."

Not all of them. The Pale existed and Earldoms that were loyal to the crown. Took hundreds of years for assimilation. The Normans in Ireland mostly stayed loyal to England and would have still been involved in campaigns against Irish that were at war with the crown to put them down. >>18024710

>Any english accent in ireland is a result of english colonisation you spastic

The language is not the accents. In Ulster the Irish got their English from the Scots and the Ulster Scots dialect is spoken in parts. Irish accents don't sound like English accents.

>>18024710
>danny boy is literally an english folk song

I thought it was a Protestant song from the North. It's not a popular song in the rest of Ireland. Try harder
>>18024710
>Fiddles are violins

Theres different kinds of fiddle like instruments played with a bow or whatever it's called. >>18024710

>Irish websites literally sell "irish" flat caps.
>Go to ireland and you'll see shops selling tourist tat "irish" caps

I've never seen them being sold in shops or online. Never seen anyone wearing one. If they're made in Ireland they're technically Irish hats so they're not lying. >>18024710
>Why did you have to change the spelling to a false irish version?

What's false about it? It was a word adopted into the language and Gaelicised.

>The word "smithereens" comes from the Irish word smidiríní, meaning "little bits," which is the diminutive of the Irish word smiodar, meaning "fragment". It was first recorded in English around the late 18th or early 19th century, likely as a borrowing from Irish, and means to be smashed or broken into very small fragments.

You don't see us crying about this. You have Ireland derangement syndrome.

>>18024710
>>Really all of them?
>Yup

Like who?

>>18023904
>infinity niggers

Damn. I want some of dat

>>18024891
>Wtf does he have to do with creating Irish identity that was around millenia before he was born?
Irish identity didn't exist before the united irishmen
>Not all of them. The Pale existed and Earldoms that were loyal to the crown. Took hundreds of years for assimilation.
Incorrect
By the reformation the normans and "old english" settlers had pretty much all stayed catholic and considered themselves irish
>The language is not the accents. In Ulster the Irish got their English from the Scots and the Ulster Scots dialect is spoken in parts. Irish accents don't sound like English accents.
Yes it is.
Irish accents sound like west country accents you lying spastic
Do you think the irish accent just sprouted out of the soil?
>I thought it was a Protestant song from the North. It's not a popular song in the rest of Ireland. Try harder
The irish claim it as their own
Come out you black and tans uses the melody of a ulster loyalist song bold orange heroes of comber
>I've never seen them being sold in shops or online. Never seen anyone wearing one. If they're made in Ireland they're technically Irish hats so they're not lying
Stop bullshitting
And if i make a sombrero in england it lets me pretend sombreros are "english" and a traditional part of english culture?
>What's false about it? It was a word adopted into the language and Gaelicised.
It was gaelicised by the irish trying to steal the word
>You don't see us crying about this. You have Ireland derangement syndrome.
English people don't try to claim the word smithereens is an indigenous english word and a part of english culture
You cry about england daily.

>>18024937
>Irish identity didn't exist before the united irishmen

What a ludicrous thing to say. >>18024937
>Incorrect
>By the reformation the normans and "old english" settlers had pretty much all stayed catholic and considered themselves irish

Hundreds of years later like I said. >>18024937
>Yes it is.
>Irish accents sound like west country accents you lying spastic

No they do not. What Irish accent? There's dozens. Provide the people you're trying to deceive with some examples.

>>18024937
>The irish claim it as their own

The Irish don't give a fuck about that song. It's not popular or given much thought.
>Come out you black and tans uses the melody of a ulster loyalist song bold orange heroes of comber
The melody of the song was adapted by Behan from an old air, Rosc Catha na Mumhan (Irish for "Battlecry of Munster"), by Piaras Mac Gearailt [ga] (Pierce FitzGerald, c. 1709 – c. 1792), which was closely associated with the Jacobite cause during the 18th century.[3]

>>18024937
>And if i make a sombrero in england it lets me pretend sombreros are "english" and a traditional part of english culture?

No one is pretending a common hat worn around the western world in the early part of the last century is a traditional Irish hat. It was a common hat and if made in Ireland the it's an Irish hat and made with tweed from wool here. Would you seethe about something being labelled an Italian suit or shirt if it was made in Italy even though they didn't invent the suit or shirt? >>18024937

>was gaelicised by the irish trying to steal the word

Did English steal the word smithereens? Or any of the other words in the English language that don't come from there. You're making a big deal about nothing. It's autistic as fuck.
>>18024937
>You cry about england daily

You're a well a known seethe poster and you have the cheek to say that. Ireland has got fuck all to do with you yet any time the place mentioned you're all over the thread whinging and crying.

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>>18024965
>No they do not. What Irish accent? There's dozens. Provide the people you're trying to deceive with some examples.
Stop being disingenous. Trained linguists know that the irish accent descends from english west country speech of the 16th century. Stop coping about it
>The Irish don't give a fuck about that song. It's not popular or given much thought.
Yes they do
>The melody of the song was adapted by Behan from an old air, Rosc Catha na Mumhan (Irish for "Battlecry of Munster"), by Piaras Mac Gearailt [ga] (Pierce FitzGerald, c. 1709 – c. 1792), which was closely associated with the Jacobite cause during the 18th century.[3]
The melody comes from the loyalist song boyne water
>Would you seethe about something being labelled an Italian suit or shirt if it was made in Italy even though they didn't invent the suit or shirt?
An italian suit is a specific style of suit originating and unique to italy you retard
>Did English steal the word smithereens? Or any of the other words in the English language that don't come from there. You're making a big deal about nothing. It's autistic as fuck.
The english don't pretend the word smithereens is a unique feature of english identity
>You're a well a known seethe poster and you have the cheek to say that. Ireland has got fuck all to do with you yet any time the place mentioned you're all over the thread whinging and crying.
You have a problem admitting that you're a bunch of spastics who have acheived nothing for hundreds of years so you pretend protesant brits are """irish"""
without yeats, tone, swift, stoker, beckett, shaw, what the fuck do you have? where is your shakespeare?
you hate the white race which is why you side with browns against whites and why irish people are anti white leftists everywhere they go, from america to glasgow to liverpool

>>18024977

>you hate the white race which is why you side with browns against whites and why irish people are anti white leftists everywhere they go, from america to glasgow to liverpool

You are seriously mentally ill

>>18024980
You literally sided with brown spics against white men in the mexican american war
you died in the thousands for niggers in the american civil war

>>18024985
>You literally sided with brown spics against white men in the mexican american war

I wasn't alive back then. Ireland didn't side with them and Irish people back then didn't side with them. Such a dumb thing to say. >>18024985

>you died in the thousands for niggers in the american civil war

Nothing to with me, Ireland or Irish people. Anglo Americans suffered the largest share of deaths in the war. It was a civil war started by anglo Americans.

>>18024074
Gaelic identity =/= Irish identity

>>18024977
>Stop being disingenous. Trained linguists know that the irish accent descends from english west country speech of the 16th century. Stop coping about it
You believe that most Irish people can trace most of their biological ancestry back to migrants from the West Country in the 16th century?

>you hate the white race which is why you side with browns against whites and why irish people are anti white leftists everywhere they go, from america to glasgow to liverpool
Irish would tend to dislike colonialists and imperialists and side with people who are fighting against colonization. It just so happens that in modern history it's mainly white Westerners who have been colonizing and mainly non-white non-Westerners who have been colonized.

So take an example where two non-white or 'brown' groups are in conflict, and one is a colonialist and the other is the colonized, Israel v Palestine, Irish side with the colonized side over the colonialists. And then take an example where two white groups are in conflicts in the same way, Russia v Ukraine, Irish side with the colonized side over the colonialists.

>>18025172
>Irish would tend to dislike colonialists and imperialists and side with people who are fighting against colonization.

Irish people don't give a fuck about those things. Stop projecting your faggy beliefs on to everyone here Belfast anon. Ireland isn't reddit or whatever group of fruits you run about with.

>>18025172
>So take an example where two non-white or 'brown' groups are in conflict, and one is a colonialist and the other is the colonized, Israel v Palestine
Most leftists (meaning people obsessed enough with that conflict to actually pick a side and choose Palestine) don’t view it as non-white vs non-white. They’re not as autistic about race as the right and view Jews as generally European and, thus, white (there are of course Jews that phenotypically look the same as Palestinians but nuance is often lost in debating this conflict). They view Israel as an extension of western imperialism (white shit) vs oppressed brown people trying to liberate themselves against colonialism.

>>18025172
>You believe that most Irish people can trace most of their biological ancestry back to migrants from the West Country in the 16th century?
When did i state this?
I stated that irish people picked up their accent when they learned english from 16th century west country settlers
The irish accent didn't just come out of nowhere and develop spontaneously you spastic

>>18023871
Did they? Their language is almost dead and their traditions are either forgotten or have been commercialized to cater to tourists

>>18024710
The English will post shit like this and then get visibly furious at the fact that the Normans had done the same to them, and worse.

>>18025314
Just like in ireland, the normans came to england as a conquering force but proceeded to rapidly assimilate into the population.
Not an argument, Taig

>>18025318
Is 400 years "rapid" to you? The only reason they've "assimilated" is because the French took Normandy for good. One more thing, their families are still the top dogs in the UK, and they wrote your forefathers as movable property in the Domesday book, and made the English a people ruled by foreigners for 1000 years.

>>18025305
>language is almost dead
But not dead.
>traditions forgotten
No, they aren't. St Brigids Day is a de-facto national holiday, and ancient Irish sports (and traditions associated, such as Poc Fada) are alive and well.
>commercialised to cater to tourists
What nation in Europe doesn't do this?

Anyway naturally as an Irish thread this thread is full of seething autists who spiral at anyone talking Irish history, so I'll speak to the whole
>there was no "Irish national identity" prior to the modern era

This is very wrong. In fact, the concept of an "Irish nation", ie a polity or political entity encompassing the entire (or even the vast majority) island of Ireland is extremely old. Setting aside of course that the entire island was unified in
>culture
>sense of self and others (aka, the concept of foreigners)
>law
But it goes far beyond this. The Irish had a collective notion of where they come from (geneologies and origin-legends were generally unified across the island), but we can look at a source like Historia Brittonum which nods to the "Royal Poet of Ireland", one of several offices held by various people through history that indicates a sense of national hierarchy or one who could be the first among X of Ireland.

Irish law is another great source of early notions of a unified Irish polity; law referred regularly to all of the island or to "Ireland;
>Direnar do cach a lanamnus a bescnu inse erenn ciapa lin ciapa n-uaite
>Every-one is paid díre for his [marital] union according to the custom of the island of Ireland, whether it be manifold or single’.

The simple fact is that yes, very obviously there was a sense of "national identity" and a sense of a realm that encompassed all of Ireland-one with a commonality of law, culture, succession, and origin. What muddied it up was the at times archaic system of succession (which again, was in the process of reform prior to the Norman Invasion) which left borders difficult to clearly mark at times.

>>18025336
Of course, none of this will matter to the handful of screaming shizos who have openly admitted to just spending their time on the internet looking for reasons to be angry at the Irish.

They have a personal crusade against what they percieve as the Irish national psyche, and believe they are fighting a war of revisionist justice. In truth, they have been seething and spamming thei retarded slop all over this board for literal years. They typically aren't worth engaging with, and I don't know if this board has ever managed to go 2 full weeks without at least one of them sperging out.

But sure look. It isn't my fault nor problem that they got mindbroken by Celtic fans or whatever flavour of insecure faggotry happened to trigger them.

>>18025335
There's only one aristocratic house that can trace direct paternal descent to the Norman Conquest and they're the descendants of a huntsman who only got rich after one of their ancestors married the daughter of a 17th century London property baron. Everyone else at best is the descendant of a bong that got rich off Fat Henry looting the monasteries.

>>18025335
>Is 400 years "rapid" to you? The only reason they've "assimilated" is because the French took Normandy for good. One more thing, their families are still the top dogs in the UK, and they wrote your forefathers as movable property in the Domesday book, and made the English a people ruled by foreigners for 1000 years.
Norman chroniclors noted that 60 years after the conquest normans were dressing like englishmen, growing their hair long and wearing mustaches
edward the 1st was given an anglo saxon name for a reason
The idea that all the upper classes are of norman descent is a myth

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As for the
>heh, [irish person] was protestant
I would remind everyone that literal schoolchildren in Ireland do not struggle with the concept of one person from a planter background having a more complicated identity as "Brit/Irish" individually.

No Irish historian has ever struggled with this, there has never been any sort of great confusion or controversy about it. Really only on this website do random retards try to present it as a "HAH, GOTCHA" because to them, history is a football match between their team and other teams.

They are only on this board to find loose, sporadic historical "evidence" to fuel their drivel over on /int/ or /pol/ and it's an instant indicator that they clearly have no notion what they're on about. Some people spend their lives seething about Ireland.

It's weird as fuck, but it happens.

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>>18025354
>growing their hair long

>>18025357
irish people spend their entire lives seething over the fact they're an off-brand charity shop britain
just browse /r/ireland and look at the threads where people whine about europeans calling them british or english
they're the canadians/ukranians of the british isles

>>18025300
I thought you were saying it was a reason that Irish people weren't really Irish or something.

And anyway it's probably much closer to what the English speaking people in the east of Ireland spoke since about 500 to 700 years before that.

>>18025357
rudyard kipling was born in india and liked indian culture
using your same standards we should be calling him a curry slurping pajeet instead of what he was, a colonial englishman

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>>18025354
>>18025349
Not a single Norman spoke English before the early 1400s, including Edward.

>The idea that all the upper classes are of Norman descent
The ENTIRETY of the Anglo-Saxon surviving nobility BOOTED to Constantinople, and the Normans had free rein over the English quarry for centuries, not counting successive, FOREIGN dynasties coming with their elites to expand the already foreign elite with even more foreign retainers.

>>18025375
Edward the III spoke english.
>retard thinks working people were never elevated to the nobility
LMAO
Colin Firth in your picture has an Anglo surname. So much for muh norman nobility.

>>18025377
Edward III was THE FIRST Norman king to speak English as his mother tongue, ending the nearly 400 years of Francophony on the English court and the elite.

>Retard
Do you omit the fact that several thousand Normans conquered millions of Englishmen, and then even fewer of those Normans established themselves as an exclusivist elite for around 400 years (again, not counting the successive, OTHER foreign dynasties, including the current one)? Do you admit that the UK's high culture is essentially non-English?

>>18025375
The current head of the house of "Percy" is descended from a baronet that changed his surname in the 18th century lmao

>>18025391
What's the difference between you and an African-American deconstructing massa's identity to feel better about his subjugation?

>>18025370
No, using "my standards" (and a child's grasp on history) we correctly call the man who identified as British and remained immersed in his British colonial identity for his entire life as an Englishman. The same way that people are able to differentiate between calling Irish-born people who retain their identity as British "British" and Irish-born people who are born into or adopt an Irish identity "Irish."

That Kipling took a keen interest in Indian culture does not translate to him calling himself an Indian, you retard.

This really isn't complicated, do you just not understand nuance?
>>18025363
No anon, you just admitted that you sit on reddit and browse for retarded history takes to project on Ireland. Every country has a population that is mostly ignorant or poorly informed on their own history; England, Scotland, Wales are no different. Most people are not historians.

Are you being deliberately dense?

>>18025393
You're coping lol.

>>18025388
>nearly 400 years
1066-1312 is not nearly 400 years
>Do you omit the fact that several thousand Normans conquered millions of Englishmen
The norman conquest was an english civil war
>and then even fewer of those Normans established themselves as an exclusivist elite for around 400 years
lower class englishmen were rising through the ranks and becoming nobles 100 years after the norman conquest, LMAO
>Do you admit that the UK's high culture is essentially non-English?
Will you ever stop seething, taig?

>>18025399
>we correctly call the man who identified as British and remained immersed in his British colonial identity for his entire life as an Englishman
So you'll rightly call Jonathan Swift British? You'll call Lord Dunsany british?
>No anon, you just admitted that you sit on reddit and browse for retarded history takes to project on Ireland. Every country has a population that is mostly ignorant or poorly informed on their own history; England, Scotland, Wales are no different. Most people are not historians.
Why are you so in denial about irish people seething over britain? British people don't even care or think about ireland at all. irish people have a seething hatred of britain
Just look at how much the irish seethe about the term "british isles". You don't see british people seething over the term irish sea.

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>I am not "Norman", alright? I have relationships with English women...and sex with Irish boys in Belfast

>>18025424
>Jonathan Swift British
Most historians would call him Anglo-Irish! That's why the term exists. Individual Anglo-Irish people can be considered "more English or Irish", but it's a case by case situation.If quizzed on whether he was "more English" than Irish, people would correctly say he was raised by an English family in 17th Century Ireland who later moved to England.

If you can find me an Irish history textbook, book, journal or otherwise that simply calls him Irish, I will gladly seek out its author and correct them. But I am guessing you typically just take the average punters loose grasp of history as gospel, then get mad about it.

Absolutely insufferable stuff anon, I can only hope you aren't like this in real life.

>>18025424
The british seethe gets so much funnier because their air space, their seas, and probably their land, is de facto guaranteed by his majestys armed forces

>>18023871
Eastern europeans survived mongols,ottomans,russians,germans and they still speak their own languages

>>18025497
There were a hundred Eastern European groups that didn't though. The ones that survived with their own language did so because they were in the middle of the groups you mentioned. There was also a good few centuries when they were under the boot on a Polish or Lithuanian hegemony. And the ones that didn't keep their own language were more completely assimilated than the Irish.

It's not a great comparison, Ireland was next door to one hegemonic power for the last thousand years, it wasn't in the borderlands between hegemonic powers.

>>18025414
Edward's rule began in 1399, and the Normans adopted the custom of speaking English during his rule, not before, and therefore, yes, nearly 400 years, and the Norman conquest wasn't a civil war, but a war of succession because Harry-boy doublecrossed William.

>Were rising through the ranks
> Lower-class Englishmen becoming minor nobility that served their conquerors is a good thing
In other words, bigger traitors than the Anglo-Saxon elites who bailed on a ship for Constantinople?

>Will you ever stop seething
Will you ever stop twisting facts and answer a simple question?

>>18025403
Intellectual dishonesty in the face of the truth, the quintessential behavior of a slave.

>>18025536
>There were a hundred Eastern European groups
Name three.

>Ireland was next door to one hegemonic power for the last thousand years
England was irrelevant to the broader European history well into the Age of Exploration, whereas the Ottomans, the ERE, the Golden Horde, the Russian Empire, and the German Empire were European, Eurasian, and even global powers.

>Borderlands between hegemonic powers
Eastern and Southeastern Europe shared immediate borders with these empires, and even the most meme-tier ethnicities in these parts of Europe have fully preserved their language and traditions, but the opposite is true for the Irish.

>>18025561
What's the dishonesty in pointing out that the surname of the current heir of the 'Percy' dynasty was adopted in the 18th century by a baronet whose surname was "Smithson" lol.

>b-but it's a Norman surname!
Funny this argument doesn't seem to apply to those kings called Edward

>>18025570
The dishonesty lies in irrelevant trivia to deflect the fact that you were under the duress of foreigners for the entirety of your history, and that several Norman families decided life and death for millions of English, who, instead of ousting them from power by sheer numbers alone, submitted to them for centuries.

> The argument doesn't seem to apply to those kings called Edward
And which of them spoke English as the first English king to do so (according to English historiography)?

>>18025561
the Norman conquest started as a war of succession, but became a war of extermination up norf.

>>18025568
>Name three.
Slovincian, Western Pomeranian, Polabian.

>England was irrelevant to the broader European history well into the Age of Exploration, whereas the Ottomans, the ERE, the Golden Horde, the Russian Empire, and the German Empire were European, Eurasian, and even global powers.

It had more than 10x the population of Ireland all though that period. And from 800 years ago it had decided that Ireland was a good place to expand their influence.

>Eastern and Southeastern Europe shared immediate borders with these empires, and even the most meme-tier ethnicities in these parts of Europe have fully preserved their language and traditions, but the opposite is true for the Irish.

Large numbers of the people who now call themselves German or Russian (or Polish) were once part of other slavic cultures. They didn't retain their language or their traditions, certainly not anything like an identity as being independent. The ones that survived as more completely distinct were on the borderlands and were passed back and forth between various empires over time. In the Balkans the terrain lent itself to the survival of these marginal groups, but the lack of the same diversity on the European plain was because of assimilation.

Ireland wasn't as completely assimilated as most of these, despite being under the yoke of a single occupying power for far longer than any of them.

>>18025576
You have no consistent definition as to what it means to be a "foreigner". Is it linguistic? No, apparently. Is it genetic? No, apparently.

So who the fuck knows what you even mean by "rule by foreigners" after the original Norman aristocracy had died off in the male line and their descendants (of centuries of intermingling with English women and men) haven't spoken French since the 14th century

>>18025497
Where are Thracian, Illyrian, Dalmatian then?

>>18025585
>Slovincian, Western Pomeranian, Polabian.
Western Pomeranian should certainly not be considered a separate group, and arguably Polabian and Slovincian should not be considered separate either.
The Slavic language group is very young you know, even between the West/East/South Slavic groups there's alot of mutual intelligibility.

>>18025612

These were independent groups at the time, as independent as the predecessors to all modern Eastern European groups, and they were completely assimilated into being German speakers, Russian speakers, or speakers of modern Slavic languages.

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>>18025662
>These were independent groups at the time
As were these.

>>18025585
In other words, Ireland was England's shithole, whereas England was Europe's shithole, and that classifies her as a hegemonic power?

> survival of these marginal groups
The only "marginal group" on the peninsula is the Albanians, who match your definition of a marginal group, and all the others were either kingdoms (Bosnia and Croatia) or full-fledged medieval empires, like the Greeks, Bulgarians, and the Serbs (hegemonic powers).

>>18025662
Are you unironically interpreting the centralizing consolidation of larger Slavic tribes into a shared, common macro-identity as the "destruction of hundreds of smaller groups"? The same happened in Ireland, and it took longer to happen than among the Slavs. The only groups that fit your description are the Pomeranians, the Obodrites, and the Lusatian Serbs (3 tribes).

>>18025678
Yep. No argument there.

>>18025689
>In other words, Ireland was England's shithole, whereas England was Europe's shithole, and that classifies her as a hegemonic power?
England was more powerful than Ireland, Europe was more powerful than England.

>The only "marginal group" on the peninsula is the Albanians, who match your definition of a marginal group, and all the others were either kingdoms (Bosnia and Croatia) or full-fledged medieval empires, like the Greeks, Bulgarians, and the Serbs (hegemonic powers).

wat

There were many, many marginal groups on the Balkan peninsula. I would also count marginal groups who didn't make it to the modern age and people who were assimilated into other groups before the modern age. You don't seem to, for whatever reason.

>>18025689
>Are you unironically interpreting the centralizing consolidation of larger Slavic tribes into a shared, common macro-identity as the "destruction of hundreds of smaller groups"? The same happened in Ireland, and it took longer to happen than among the Slavs. The only groups that fit your description are the Pomeranians, the Obodrites, and the Lusatian Serbs (3 tribes).

What would you call it when they became German speakers and lost any trace of Slavic culture or sense of independence from a German national identity?

It took 800 years of colonization in Ireland and Ireland still has an independent identity from the colonizing power. Are there Slavic groups who were colonized by non-Slavic groups who retained their identity after 800 years of continuous colonization?

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>>18025586
>You have no consistent definition
They were linguistically and genetically foreign (clustering with modern-day Brittany) to the English, and they spoke French till the early 1400s (not the 1300s). They also made sure to defile the English language to the point where around 26% of it is Germanic, and you need to take university courses to understand Old English.

>who the fuck knows
It means NON-ENGLISH and wrote you down like movable property.
William's dynasty = French-speaking Normans
Plantagenets = French proper
Tudors = Normano-Welsh
Stuart = Scottish
Hanover = GERMAN
House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha = GERMAN, again.
The fact of the matter is, the last English died at Hastings, and English culture was never the high culture of England, or Great Britain, for that matter. You're not a "civilizing force", you're a middleman in your own country.

>>18025703
>Are there Slavic groups who were colonized by non-Slavic groups who retained their identity after 800 years of continuous colonization?
Yes, Sorbs, Slovenes, and Slovaks.

>>18025703
A hegemonic power is a dominant nation-state that exercises control and influence over other countries, regions, or the international system itself through a combination of political, economic, and military might, and sometimes even cultural or ideological appeal. This was Great Britain, and not England, which had a capital made entirely of wood till the fucking 1600s. You call this a "hegemonic power"???

>many marginal groups on the Balkan peninsula
Name three.

>What would you call it
Did you miss the part where I outright specified the groups that fit your description in the context of the German restoration of Eastern Germany?

>continuous colonization
Yes, the Carinthian Slovenes, the Lusatian Serbs, the Gagauz, the Kashubs.

>still has an independent identity
You don't speak your language, and you speak English instead, and barring Poitin, Gaelic football, and the Brehon Law, there's nothing left of your "identity".

>>18025709
Anon they weren't some closed off genetic caste. I very much doubt the English aristocracy in 1850 "genetically" clustered with Brittany when guys with surnames like Smithson were found in its ranks lol

>lists off some euromutt dynasties
lmao, the Stuarts are "Scottish" but the Tudors are "Normano-Welsh".

Also lmao as if the scottish lowlands aren't culturally just an extension of northumbria

inb4 you start haplojeeting about the stuarts actually being normans (french) saaaarrrrr

>>18025725
They didn't share a genetic origin with you, and refused to speak your language till the 1400s, and again, wrote you down like movable property in your own country.

>lists off some Euromutt dynasties
Are you retarded or something? These are all the dynasties that ruled you for the last 1000 years. You call us a slave race, but you spent your entire recorded history under a foreigner's boot. We FREED OURSELVES OF Great Britain, whereas you still have to accomplish that.

>>18025717
>Name three.
What would you count as a marginal group? Anyone who doesn't have a nation state today?

>Did you miss the part where I outright specified the groups that fit your description in the context of the German restoration of Eastern Germany?
That would be the assimilation of slavic groups into the German nationality. So they didn't retain their slavic culture.

>You don't speak your language, and you speak English instead, and barring Poitin, Gaelic football, and the Brehon Law, there's nothing left of your "identity".
Ireland has an independent culture, more distinct from any other part of the English speaking world than any of them are from each other, but closer to the level of distinction that exists between the English speaking world and other European cultures. No-one is arguing there is no influence of English culture in Ireland, or that it's not part of the English spreaking world right now. You are arguing that it's not uniquely distinct from any of the other English speaking parts of the world, which is clearly false.

>Yes, the Carinthian Slovenes, the Lusatian Serbs, the Gagauz, the Kashubs.
Cool good for them. I'd still be surprised to find out they had the same kind of attention devoted to assimilating them as the Irish got from England. There were groups that had that kind of attention devoted to assimilating them, but they're part of German or Russian or Polish nations now, not at all as independent as Irish culture is from English culture.


Remember at the start of this thread chain your point was that Ireland was somehow lesser than Eastern Europeans because every single Eastern European group that existed around the year 1000 continued to exist into the modern age without being assimilated?

>>18025740
>Ireland has an independent culture, more distinct from any other part of the English speaking world than any of them are from each other, but closer to the level of distinction that exists between the English speaking world and other European cultures. No-one is arguing there is no influence of English culture in Ireland, or that it's not part of the English spreaking world right now. You are arguing that it's not uniquely distinct from any of the other English speaking parts of the world, which is clearly false.
Should we pretend the culture of the danelaw has survived in england because yorkshire has a distinct culture, despite the language of the danes being utterly extinct?
To everyone else in mainland europe the irish are just funny british people.

>>18025739
Anon, not even you think the Norman aristocracy spent 900 years as a closed genetic caste that was sporadically topped up by French immigrants and whatever continentals the other royal families dragged along with them. They intermarried as all foreign conquerors that are a minority do.

You don't sincerely believe an Irishman with a "Fitz" at the start of his surname is akchoally a displaced Frenchman, come off it.

>you call us
I never called the Irish a slave race. You're arguing with two separate anons.

>>18025735
>SAAAAAR IT'S NOT FOREIGN RULE IF HE SELLS ME INTO SLAVERY IN A LANGUAGE I CAN UNDERSTAND, SAAAAR
The English are so pathetic, hahaha

The Lothian region has nothing to do with Northumbria culturally.

>>18025783
>William the Conqueror was Danish

>>18025783
Taig Cope
>the Lowlands were historically referred to as “the Lands of the English in the Kingdom of the Scots” by Medieval chroniclers
>Bede referred to lands south of the Firth of Forth as England
>French chroniclers stated the ethnic border between the Scottish and English was the Firth of Forth
>the Gaelic word for the Lowlands translates as “the Place of the Foreigner”
>the Gaelic word for a Lowlander translates as “stranger/foreigner/outlander/alien” and is the same word they used for other English and Norse, Normans and other foreigners
>Gaels also simply referred to Lowlanders as “Saxons” as they did other English

>Northumbrian Old English had been established in what is now southeastern Scotland as far as the River Forth by the seventh century, as the region was part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria
100% pure celtic BVLLs saaaar

>>18025740
>Ireland has an independent culture, more distinct from any other part of the English speaking world than any of them are from each other
Ridiculously untrue if you count non-white English-speaking places, and honestly still untrue even if you only count whites.
t. neutral ESL

>>18025748
>Should we pretend the culture of the danelaw has survived in england because yorkshire has a distinct culture, despite the language of the danes being utterly extinct?
It's not as distinct as Irish culture.

Wales is more distinct from generic English than Yorkshire is, and then Scottish is more distinct from generic English culture than Wales, and then you could take them all as a unit and you've got distinctions between British culture and the colonies where Australian or Canadian are closer to British than American, but then you take them all as a unit and you've got Irish culture as more distinct from all of them than any are from each other.

>To everyone else in mainland europe the irish are just funny british people.
Do they also think Americans and Australians are just funny British people? Where is the line there?

>>18025811
If you're talking about West Indies then that's pretty close to the level of distinction, places like Nigeria or parts of India where English is spoken are more distinct.

When it comes to America, Australia, Canada, or Englishers in South Africa, and Britain, they're all closer to each other than any or all of them are to Irish.

>>18025740
What do you count as a marginal group? Anything that suits your argument?

>So they didn't retain their Slavic culture
The Lusatian Serbs did, and they were one of the major tribes in Eastern Germany.

>has an independent culture
Your native language is English, and you have to remind foreigners that you're not British because you're indistinguishable from them.

> I'd still be surprised
Because you unironically think that people who were under the epicenter of Ottoman and German assimilation efforts, for centuries, and were nearly exterminated through genocide during WW2, were under less duress than the Irish regarding Great Britain's assimilation efforts.

>Polish nations now
You do realize that the West Slavic tribes whom the Polans had "assimilated" were culturally indistinguishable from them? The same happened among the Southern and the Eastern Slavs because language division among the Medieval Slavs manifested only in the early-to-mid 1000s, and by that time, all of the Medieval Slavic identities that developed into nationalities today were fully formed.

>Remember
Where's the lie? Also, I'm not Eastern European or from the Former Yugoslavia, I'm Norwegian (Tromsø). The geostrategic and sociopolitical ramifications of assimilation in Eastern Europe and Southeastern Europe, which are the land bridges that combine Asia and the Middle East with Europe, have profound ramifications for the history of Europe. If the Irish or the English were in the Balkans or in the Russian Steppe, the Golden Horde and the Ottomans would've been in Paris by the end of the 1500s. Slavs, while unforgiving and severe, have an impressive cultural longevity and readiness to eat bark just to win the war of civilization, which can't be said for the Irishers, who were so meek that they allowed dysgenic, ugly English landlords, numbered in a whopping several hundred (or whatever), to kill them through planned starvation in the millions.

>>18025813
Not even one of the anti-irish schizos who pollute this board but there really isn't that much that seperates British and Irish culture. To most British people Irish people are just more working class Brits with less of a class system and catholic rather than protestant.
So many British people move to Ireland and vice versa that I've had encounters with British people who don't even realise that Ireland is a seperate sovereign state and not just a constitutent nation of the UK like Wales or Scotland.

>>18025795
>be the first Stuart king
>Invent the title of "King of Great Britain" to avoid having the English ethnonym in your title
SAAAAR, HE WAS A PROUD ENGLISH SAAAAR, honk* honk*

>>>18025789
>Still non-English
SAAAAR

>>18025761
Everyone thinks that because they themselves made it apparent during their reign, do you deny their dehumanization of the English?

>>18025827
based norwegian BVLL getting payback from clontarf by owning the irish online
the irish plantation was norse revenge on the irish by planting i1 nords like andrew jackson into ireland

>>18025819
>If you're talking about West Indies then that's pretty close to the level of distinction
You're utterly delusional.
>When it comes to America, Australia, Canada, or Englishers in South Africa, and Britain, they're all closer to each other than any or all of them are to Irish.
In both language and culture Americans are clearly the most distinct Anglophone whites, after them Canadians since Canadians are almost the same as Americans at this point.
Maybe the Irish could be considered as distinct as Australians/New Zealanders, but even that seems a bit generous desu.

>>18024937
>Yes it is.
>Irish accents sound like west country accents you lying spastic
No they really don’t. If I heard this guy speaking I’d never mistake him for Irish.
https://youtu.be/2x-PtJPmeXk?si=_SUrOKUUBKtfCmLM
>Do you think the irish accent just sprouted out of the soil?
There’s no singular Irish accent rather a continuum of accents and they are of course heavily influenced by the Irish language, which is why Irish accents become harsher and harder to understand the further away from Dublin you go.
Here’s a video of two native Irish speakers in Connemara arguing with each other, the words will sound like mostly gibberish but the accent is clearly recognisable as Irish.
https://youtu.be/kh8eQ6pcQuI?si=04O1j2fs44x9RwW5

>>18025827
>What do you count as a marginal group? Anything that suits your argument?
I would count any of the groups that were assimilated or any of the groups that didn't dominate their neighbors or any of the groups that lived in remote areas to be marginal.

>Your native language is English, and you have to remind foreigners that you're not British because you're indistinguishable from them.
Foreigners don't really get to define it.

>Because you unironically think that people who were under the epicenter of Ottoman and German assimilation efforts, for centuries, and were nearly exterminated through genocide during WW2, were under less duress than the Irish regarding Great Britain's assimilation efforts.
But you're saying that every single one of them successfully resisted these efforts?

>You do realize
They were even more distinct than that. Honestly people nowadays have no idea what cultural diversity is even like, we're all living at the end of a couple hundred years of nationalization that even eliminated cultures within nations.

>Where's the lie?
People who'd live in different conditions would have different traits. If the Irish or the English were in the Balkans or the Russian steppe, they'd have had to adapt to those conditions. The dominant conditions in Ireland were that English authorities were colonizing the country.

You were saying that every single group that existed in Eastern Europe 1000 years ago successfully resisted assimilation of any kind and continues to survive to this day with the same language and traditions, or if they didn't then they never really had any distinct language or traditions to begin with.

>>18025836
The lower Normans freely intermarried with the English
>Everyone thinks
"Everyone" in this instance being idiots.

You really got worked up by the slave race comment didn't you lol

>>18025845
>Here’s a video of two native Irish speakers in Connemara arguing with each other, the words will sound like mostly gibberish but the accent is clearly recognisable as Irish.

No way bro, this anon says
>>18025844
>In both language and culture Americans are clearly the most distinct Anglophone whites,
so your video is clearly wrong.

>>18025854
>that didn't dominate their neighbors
That's only Albanians, because they were too stupid to do it, even when they had the privileged status in the Ottoman Empire. Even today, with full NATO support, their maximum is to steal a Serb's empty house.

>Resisted these efforts
Yes, otherwise, they wouldn't exist anymore. Did the Irish succeed at defeating and utterly humiliating their enemies in WW2, like the Soviets and the Yugoslavs did?

>They were even more distinct than that
Not according to archaeology and linguistics.

>They'd have had to adapt to those conditions
We can see how well you're "adapting to these conditions" with mass immigration.

>They never really had any distinct language or traditions to begin with
That's impressive, millions (even back then) of homogeneous warrior band rapists and their thick bitches taking over more than half of Europe and retaining that homogeneity half a millennium after their separation. Ironic how the "subhumans" in German propaganda were the true Aryans, even the brunette South Slavs, while the "based Germans" couldn't even LARP like an Aryan for 4 years without overdosing on the Haribo amphetamines and semi-automatic bullets to the mouth?

>>18025845
>>18025862
Almost nobody in Ireland speaks like that, you're being disingenuous..

>>18025877
Almost nobody in Ireland speaks like what?

>>18025880
Speaks like the guys in that video...

>>18025881
Everyone in the west of Ireland talks like that lad.

https://x.com/gaelicrevival/status/1932824419606372421?s=46

>>18025892
>https://x.com/gaelicrevival/status/1932824419606372421?s=46
This one was largely intelligible though.

>>18025904
That’s because they’re speaking English, in the previous video the two lads are speaking Irish. The reason why I compared them is because even though the languages are different the accent and cadence is the same.

>>18025910
And?

>>18025912
Not good at following the conversation are you? The retard claimed that Irish accents are transmogrified West Country English accents, what I’m showing is that Irish accents are shaped by the Irish language, in the same way that an Indian or Chinese person speaks English in an accent that’s meant for a different language, Irish people speak in accents meant for Irish.

>>18025916
>Not good at following the conversation are you?
I wasn't part of that conversation, was I?
You're both wrong though, only looking at one factor each when both, and others, have influenced modern accents. And the relationship with Irish isn't a one-way street, for more than a century most Irish-speakers have been bilinguals from an early age and that has inevitably taken a heavy toll on pronounciations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP4nXlKJx_4
The way this old monolingual spoke sounds MUCH less like Irish English.
And having an accent that has been influenced by a foreign language does not make Ireland particularly unique, Minnesotan English especially sounds very similair to a Scandinavian accent.

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>>18025561
>behavior

>>18023871
Would Lime be Limerick?

>>18026611
Feel free to write an /his/torical limerick for us

>>18026028
good post

>the irish accent totally isn't the result of gaels adopting the accent that west country settlers spoke with
COPE
By that standard nogs in america speak that way because of their african ancestors and not because of the actual truth that they adopted english accents from their massas in the 17th century

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>>18023904
America collected all of the Infinity Niggers a long time ago anon

>>18027168
You phrase it like a troll, but you're totally right. Dublin accounts for nearly 30% of the Irish population and it was always English-ruled. Cork, Waterford, Limerick, etc were all cities that grew in prominence only thanks to being English-ruled. It makes sense that West Country accents, or at least Middle English dialects generally, were not massively influenced by Gaelic any more than the reverse

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>>18028044
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yola_dialect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingallian

^These dialects of Middle English or West Saxon were from before the Elizabethan era, and then image related shows the plantations from that era.

>>18028079
Yes, Ireland has had Anglophone settlements for the better part of 900 years

>>18024074
>Irish national identity predates the existence of an English national identity
sounds like bullshit ngl

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>>18029081
Not really.

England centralised into a single realm before Ireland; England did that in 927 while Ireland wasn't really unified until 1011 or so. But Ireland had a commonality in law, customs, culture, a sense of self/other, and a notion of "Ireland" as a political entity long before that. There are instances of this in the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries; it's just that there was no central power or government or ruler willing (or able) to impose *their* rule on the rest of the island.

But if you, for example, cut down too many trees in a kingdom on the north coast, then did the same in a kingdom on the south coast, your punishment and fine would be the same.

The Anglo-Saxons arrived in England around the 5th Century, by which time Ireland was already Christianising and at which time many now legendary figures (Niall of the Nine Hostages, for example) are thought to have lived-with the large dynasties like the Uí Néill claiming descendant from them. It isn't a contest, most people who try to play top trumps with this stuff are in reality fuelling retarded /int/-tier shadowboxing between modern nations-but retarded ramblings on 4chan to do not trump the findings of actual historians.

Ireland was also well on its way to transforming into a more typical feudal society by the 11th and 12th centuries, and the only reason it didn't become a strange European frontier kingdom with similarly very old roots is because it as a decentralised island of petty kingdoms was then pitted against its much larger and more populous neighbour for severla centuries.

As I've said many times, Irish history is a really interesting niche of European history when you don't have 4 or 5 shizos screaming at you about taigs and shitting themselves in fury over what random fags say online.

>>18029709
>But Ireland had a commonality in law, customs, culture, a sense of self/other, and a notion of "Ireland" as a political entity long before that. There are instances of this in the 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries; it's just that there was no central power or government or ruler willing (or able) to impose *their* rule on the rest of the island.
How is that any different to the anglo saxon kingdoms or even a place like ireland though.

>>18029735
*or even a place like iceland

>>18029735
>How is that any different to the anglo saxon kingdoms
It isn't; it's just that it existed in Ireland before the Anglo-Saxons had come to consolidate enough for it to resemble a precusor to "England," which is what the post I replied to rejected. iirc, it wasn't until the late 6th Century that most of what is now "England" was under control of various Anglo-Saxon kingdoms-however many of them had differing origin legends, setting them slightly apart from Ireland in that regard.

But really that's the point; getting muddled in something as amorphous and vague as a "national identity" in that time period is pointless, and usually only used by people who treat all of history as a series of football matches with countries/people being teams. The idea of "Ireland" (the people, political entity, culture/identity) is very old, I guess some would try date it older even than this but I'd set it at roughly the 5th Century or so. Some parts are older (sports for example; Hurling was played in Ireland for many centuries before written history began) but it was around the 5th century that the "origin point" (or at least, the earliest origin point that we know of) of an "Irish identity" begins.

As I said, though, it's a very anachronistic and vague concept to try impose on a one size fits all basis. It also doesn't really matter, at the end of the day. Interesting, though.

>>18029742
But all those points can be applied to England though. Even as petty kingdoms the English had a common law, culture, religion, sense of self/other, etc.

>>18029837
Right, they can, but the person I was replying to was saying it was "bullshit" that Ireland had those things prior to "England" (ie, the people who would go on to found the Kingdom of England).

This isn't because of some inherant superiority or anything else, it's because the Anglo-Saxons only showed up in what we now know as England around the 5th Century. By the time they had settled or conquered enough of southern Britain (iirc, late 6th century) to have a notion of a consolidated "English" identity (again, not a great way to frame it) Ireland already had its own. The site of the Lia Fáil, where Irish High Kings were coronated, is a site of political significance dating back to antiquity-although the stone currently found there is of debated origin since it's been moved a few times throughout history.

I do wish we knew more about very early Anglo-Saxon England but we sadly do not, likewise with very early Gaelic Ireland. The relationship between England and Ireland was also very different to how it turned out once the Normans showed up; King Harold Godwinson and High King Diarmait mac Máel na mBó were very close friends and allies.

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>>18025363
>the british isles

>>18030270
The British Archipelago*

more like the BRUTISH isles

>>18026028
>The way this old monolingual spoke sounds MUCH less like Irish English
You would think that because you’re not Irish and haven’t lived here especially in the western of Ireland where accents that strong still exist.

>>18028044
Just because they were English ruled doesn’t mean there aren’t Irish people there
>By the Tudor period, the Irish culture and language had reestablished itself in regions conquered by the Anglo-Normans: "even in the Pale, all the common folk ... for the most part are of Irish birth, Irish habit and of Irish language".[5]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale#:~:text=By%20the%20Tudor%20period%2C%20the,was%20reinstated%20in%20the%201530s.
It even survived in pockets in the outskirts of Co.Dublin into the mid-19th century
http://dublingaelic.blogspot.com/2014/07/how-exactly-did-dublin-irish-die-out.html?m=1

>>18030628
I think that because I'm not deaf