It is 1938 so it is not too late yet. How do you not get invaded and destroyed by Germany and the Soviet Union? And if you say ally with Germany then what is stopping them from invading you after finishing France?
I change nothing and enjoy my new territories taken from Germany and given as a gift by comrade Stalin
>>18024274FAGGOT
There isn't much to do besides using the time to improve fortifications and make plans for resistance. I doubt it'll change the overall course of events, but it would certainly make invasion more costly for Germany and Russia.
>>18024274Nigger without the war we'd have more people than Spain today and I'm talking just about ethnic Poles here. What you're saying is like being glad you got a car in compensation for cutting off your hand and destroying your previous car.
>>18024268Easy. Leave danzig alone. Make a treaty with the nazis. Hitler already attended Pilsudski funeral and could easily be brought along side as long as you don't kill germans. Poland would have been a great ally to Germany if they weren't all such tremendous duplicitous faggots.
I definitely don't partition Czechia for one
>>18024268Threaten the Germans with invasion during the Munich Crisis. Allow the Soviets to move through southern Poland to reinforce the Czechs.
>>18024906Czechia is fake
>>18024876>Hitler already attended Pilsudskilies
>>18025023There's a photo of him at the funeral. Front row.Are you a retard or am I? Honest question.
>>18025036nah, you just dumb or liehe didn't attended Pilsudski funeralthe photo is from memorial in berlinso you either lie or are ignorant fool, maybe both
>>18024856The other option is just dying. So losing my hand and getting a new car is understandably a lot better.
>>18024268>ally germany giving up danzig in exchange for some dibs on eastern european land>with poland as ally nazis have headstart on USSR and destroy them, stalin kills himself >wait for allies to develop nukes and nuke berlin, switch sides and speedrun occupying prussia
>>18025041Memorial for who?
I'd stil align with France and Britain since these two are the only ones who will guarantee my independnece instead of having 4D plans to use me as a pawn and slowly erode my sovreignty for their own hegemony ambition. Britain just wanted Europe to chill so they could keep being top dogs, and that's fine for Poland because for as long as the Germans and the Russians sit down, things are fine.The changes I'd make would be to try to rugpull Hitlers casus beli as much as possible. I'd invite German officials to inspect large German-populated villages to see for themselves that no massacres are happening. I'd propose a population swap like Greece and Turkey did in 1920. I'd propose a 'Munch'-esque conference that will guarantee my sovreignty and economic interests in Danzig in exchange of giving Germany military rights to the city and a slow assimilation to the Reich, similar to the deal Britain made with China over Hong Kong in the 1990s.If this doesnt make the Germans fuck off and Hitler shows up with more demands over the corridor then I suppose it's time to prepare for war. I wont make the same mistake Poland did IRL by concentrating her forces in the corridor and thus get overwhelmed by pincer attack in the first few days (Poland did this because they feared Britain and France might not intervene if the corridor was captured without much resistance and the Germans simply stopped there), but to defend the Vistula interior lines. Knowing that Stalin will join Hitler, I'd make preparations from day 1 to evacuate the army as soon as the Vistula cant be held.
>>18024268Ally with the USSR and stop being a nationalist fascist shitholeDefeat Germany and save European civilization in the name of Marxist Leninism >>18024906>>18024920Other smart replies
>>18025022>fakeNo pretty sure it exists. It isn't like Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster it is definitely real.
>>18024268it was altready too late in 1938>>18024876>Poland would have been a great ally to Germany if they weren't all such tremendous duplicitous faggots.clearly you know nothing about polish people. germans had to bring hans frank all the way from bavaria because they couldn't find anyone of any statue willing to head a collaborationist government>>18024906they deserved it, shouldn't have invaded zaolzie while we were busy fighting off savages from the east
>>18024268>Give Danzig to Germany.>Offer to be a German satellite state.>Let German troops cross through Poland so that Barbarossa can start early.>Once the Germans take Moscow and execute Stalin, betray the Germans and rush for Berlin.>Convince Britain and France to invade Germany from the West.>Germany is defeated and the USSR is too weak by this point to push west. >Poland is now a great power with total sovereignty.
>>18024268>ally yourself with Germany>destroy the USSR together with Japan>win the war
>>18025434>willing to head a collaborationistSays a lot about Polish people standing by their nation rather than bending the knee to German oppression
>>18024876>Easy. Leave danzig alone. Make a treaty with the nazis.>In 1940 Hitler invades because of made up reasons and annexes you anyway like he did with CzechoslovakiaImagine being this dumb after Munich
>>18024876Is it just one retard who constantly brings up danzig or is there a couple of them? Hitler was going to invade poland no matter what.
>>18025702They actively avoided another Munich conference because they didn't want this issue to be resolved. The Germans actually feared that Poland might agree to releasing Danzig so they pressured the Danzig government not to have any seperate talks with Poland.
>>18024268It is 100% too late.
>>18024268I ally with Germany and support them over Danzig then ask for special concessions in exchange for Gdynia. Germany was the largest economy in Europe by 1938 and having special trade rights and special access to an idealist chancellor would be phenomenal.
>>18024268Drop territorial claims in Czechoslovakia and ally with them. Try to prevent the Munich conference from happening (it nearly didn't, and only did because Goering went behind Hitler's back in order to convince Mussolini to get involved, so some diplomatic moves and attempts to piss off Hitler might derail it). Then when Germany goes to war with Czechoslovakia help them. It's probably still in Germany's favor, but with no Molotov Ribbentrop and a stronger anti-german force in the east, things are at least better off.
>>18025680Hitler didn’t annex Czechoslovakia tho.
>>18025702>Hitler was going to invade Poland no matter whatSource?
>>18025788What do you mean release Danzig?
>>18025821in 1936 Hitler told the Generalstab to be ready for war within 4 years. Meaning he had intended to invade someone within that time. In 1938 hitler told his generals to prepare for war in the east. And the only country to his east... was poland.. Then you have Lebensraum which called for colonization and expansion, but after world war 1, they had no more colonies, so russia became the primary target. Poland was in the way, and so no matter what, hitler had to invade it.
>>18025817>We just made them a "protectorate" broSo was Poland
>>18025856>>18025856Numerous countries existed to the east. Hitler wanted a german sphere of interest yes, and negotiated with the USSR to achieve that whereby germany would have sway over close nations and especially ethnically close nations as per the past 300 years. The Soviets refused this agreement and invaded all these areas while the Poles agitated against Germans. Hitler suspected that commies would do this and Poles without a based military leader with a sense of honour like Pilsudski, would also do this.
>>18025856>in 1936 Hitler told the Generalstab to be ready for war within 4 years.It doesn't necessarily mean he intends on using it.Plenty of militaries today who maintain a "always be ready for war" funding, USA being one of them.Hitler definitely wanted the east but he also believed the west wouldn't intervene. Have a strong army was necessary to ensure no intervention.Also, Hitler initially wanted Poland as an ally. All sources points towards that direction. Not an equal ally obviously, Poland was going to submit herself to the German sphere and ambition, just as Slovakia and Hungary had done. When Poland refused negotiations to join the anti-comintern pact in late 1938 / early 1939, that's when Hitler changed the plan to military subjugation and likely turn her into a czechia 2.0But it makes little sense to say that Hitler had planned a war with Poland all along because the immediate question to that is why didn't Hitler make plans for a war with Poland much earlier then? Shouldn't he have made plans simultaneously with the rearmament? Plans of war were not being made until April 1939, which was after Poland had rejected the anti-comintern pact and recieving the British guarantee.
>>18025981The USA spends about 3% of its GDP on the military, not 50% like Nazi Germany was doing in the years leading up to 1939.
>>18025564i did that in Hearts of Iron IV
>>18026013That’s because Germany went from completely demilitarized to needing an army to defend one of the largest countries in Europe.
>>18024920that means getting fucked by Stalin completely instead of getting fucked by Stalin and Hitler together.>>18025353tankie opinion discarded>>18024876among the better options.Poland might also consider lightening up on the antisemitism (at the time Poland was worse than Germany, a lot of Polish Jews were fleeing west). This makes Poland a better prospect to Jewish investment and might shame Hitler into improving its homeland policies.Poland can still purge tankies, whilst sheltering dissidents against Stalin, including Trots.Also make mutual-defence deals with Hitler so that a strike against the main tankie menace can be made.
>>18026013It still doesnt automatically prove that invasion was the agenda from the start.Hitler wanted to prevent western intervention while bringing the smaller states into German sphere and orbit. He can only achieve these two if Germany has a threatening army.Yeah he spent the majority of German GDP on defence but then again the armed forces were raised from scratch. Even in 1939 the Wehrmacht was relatively weak until they took the Czech armament.It should also be said that Hitler was extremely paranoid and believed in an international plot to destroy Germany. Paranoid states tend to have an extremely high gdp spending on defence, North Korea and Stalins USSR being examples.
>>18025981>It doesn't necessarily mean he intends on using it.>>18026053>It still doesnt automatically prove that invasion was the agenda from the start.top fucking kek
>>18026013>not 50% like Nazi Germany was doing in the years leading up to 1939.This is a fucking lie.1935 - 8%1936 - 13%1937 - 13%1938 - 17%This is when Germany starts to make territorial demands.Its a fucking far cry from 50%, you're not even trying to be honest. Just shut the fuck up or debate in good faith.
>>18026048from whomst?
>>18025856No, he never said that. He said multiple times they need a high level of readiness in the event of a Cordon Sanitare or Soviet first strike.>the only country to his east was PolandAnd the only cause for war was polish aggression and that is what actually set did the war. The polish invading Danzig. To say nothing of the polish border raids or abuses of German people in Poland.>LebensraumHitler mentions France more than he mentions Lebensraum. He mentions Czechoslovakia more than he mentions Lebensraum.You might as well say America attacked Japan because manifest destiny demanded Americans colonize the pacific islands.It’s nonsense. Lebensraum was an abstract idea that never made it into policy nor did it influence any short term decision making such as going to war.>no more coloniesLebensraum wasn’t about colonies lol. Germany’s colonies were small and most of them were islands. Germany’s colonial holdings were not even 1/20th of France’s let alone Britain’s.>no matter what Hitler had to invadeWhat do you mean no matter what? Where does anyone in Germany say “we will go to war over living space” where?Nowhere.This isn’t a motivation. We have the declaration of war and we have the lead up to war with poland and more importantly WE HAVE HIS PEACE OFFERS!If Hitler wanted war, why did he offer peace to Poland on day 2 before any polish town or city was taken?Germany had taken Danzig and only Danzig when Hitler offered peace the first time.How is this a war of conquest if he offers peace without actually taking any polish land?
>>18026059You realise how big the US military is in porportion to everyone else? Is that proof that USA intends on invading anyone?Again, if Hitler was planning on invading Poland all along, then why was no preparations or plans being made? Why the last minute? And why bother trying to get Poland on their side?You're literally arguing against historians right now. You're just spewing propaganda. Historians like Overy and Taylor explained that its a lie that the nazies planned war with Poland from the start.
>>18026063>1938 - 17%jesus that's still crazy
>>18026073>Is that proof that USA intends on invading anyone?how many foreign bases and how many foreign military adventures is the current US military maintaininglol fucking retard
>>18026050What could Stalin do? The 1938 Red Army had just finished being purged and would be in no condition to fight Poland. Having them reinforce Czechoslovakia is just to add pressure to force Germany to back down.
>>18026074It's not more crazy than Stalins USSR or current North Korea.Again, paranoid states has an extremely high military spending but its not automatic proof of planned war.
>>18025857Hacha asked to join the Reich in a partnership because his country was collapsing.You are obviously arguing in bad faith as evidenced by the fact you were wrong about annexation and now you pivot to say protectorate status is some kind of defacto annexation.Why even argue at this point? You already made up your mind.>>18026059If Hitler wanted war, why did he ask for peace?We can only conclude he actually wanted peace and your insistence he wanted war is pieced together from vague ideas and quotes you personally find aggressive.What we see from Hitler’s actions is he wanted no war.>>18026065the Germans genuinely believed, with good enough reason, they were targeted by France and to a lesser extent to the USSR.France and Britain even asked Stalin if he would invade Germany in 1935/36 I think.In any case. France’s Cordon Sanitare is reason enough to justify a large defense budget the Germans weren’t even at 50% anyway until 1944.
>>18026073>You're literally arguing against historians right now. You're just spewing propaganda. Historians like Overy and Taylor explained that its a lie that the nazies planned war with Poland from the start.You're spewing propaganda. All real historians know it was plannedHistorians who have documented Hitler's planning for the invasion of Poland: Klaus Hildebrand: Points out that Germany's diplomatic offer of negotiations was a deliberate deception, as the decision to go to war had already been made by Hitler. Gerhard Weinberg: In his work, The Foreign Policy of Hitler's Germany, he documents the diplomatic maneuvers, including the Henderson-Ribbentrop meeting, which confirm the Nazi regime's determination to go to war despite last-minute diplomatic appeals. Peter Longerich: Emphasizes the "purely propagandistic character" of Hitler's diplomatic gestures toward Poland, which were a pretext for the invasion. Longerich's biography of Hitler describes his long-term expansionist plans for Eastern Europe. Doris Bergen: Explains that the invasion of Poland was the direct implementation of Hitler's racial program, intertwining Nazi policies of "race" and "space" to acquire Lebensraum. Alexander Rossino: In Hitler Strikes Poland, he provides a comprehensive study of the campaign, showing its brutal nature and revealing new insights into its ideological underpinnings. He argues the invasion blended Nazi ideology with the German military's desire for an Eastern empire. Ian Kershaw: In his definitive biography of Hitler, Kershaw documents how the invasion of Poland was the calculated execution of Hitler's long-term expansionist goals.
>>18026073>>18026085 Richard J. Evans: As part of his comprehensive trilogy on the Third Reich, Evans details the invasion of Poland as the first major act of aggression toward fulfilling Hitler's vision of German dominance in Europe. William L. Shirer: In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, he details the diplomatic events and Hitler's secret planning that led to the invasion, including Germany's use of staged "provocations" as justification. Christopher Miskimon: Describing Hitler as a "gambler," Miskimon details how the invasion of Poland was a calculated risk that, according to Hitler's mindset, was necessary for expansion and economic gain. Timothy Snyder: His work often addresses the immense suffering inflicted on Poland during World War II. He details the Nazi vision for Poland and the methods used to implement it, which began with the 1939 invasion. Max Hastings: A military historian, Hastings has documented the military imbalance and Germany's superior tactics during the invasion, noting Hitler's military was significantly better supplied and prepared. Robert Gellately: His work, including Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler, explores the interconnected nature of totalitarian regimes. He details the brutality of the Nazi occupation of Poland that began with the 1939 invasion. Norman Davies: A specialist in Polish history, Davies has extensively documented the invasion, emphasizing the coordinated Nazi and Soviet attacks and the devastating impact on the Polish state and its people. Saul Friedländer: A leading Holocaust historian, Friedländer's work chronicles the persecution of Jews and other minorities, which was a core component of Hitler's plans for Poland and Eastern Europe. The invasion was the first step in this genocidal plan. John P. Dunn: The research starter about the Polish Campaign cites Dunn in explaining Hitler's use of Blitzkrieg and the strategic reasons for the invasion, including securing Lebensraum.
>>18026079I don’t think the purges made the army weaker. They still had experienced officers and generals. Now they had party men and loyalists at the helm.The Wehrmacht didn’t fall apart when Hitler had to clear out the July Gang.
>>18026073>>18026085>>18026089 Michael Burleigh: In The Third Reich: A New History, Burleigh discusses the invasion as a key moment in the unfolding of Nazi Germany's expansionist and racial goals. Alan Bullock: In Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives, Bullock draws parallels between the two dictators and details their pact to invade and partition Poland. Martin Gilbert: In his works on World War II and the Holocaust, Gilbert documents the planned nature of the invasion and its devastating consequences for the Polish population. Joachim Fest: In his biography of Hitler, Fest shows how the dictator's long-term ideological goals were directly implemented with the invasion of Poland. Hermann Graml: Contributed to the understanding that Germany's diplomatic maneuvers were a pretense, as the decision for war had already been finalized by Hitler. you sound like an illiterate nutcase spewing /pol/ memeshitler literally wrote a fucking book about how he was going to invade other countries lmao retard
>>18026085>>18026089None of these descriptions have war with Poland as a long term strategic goal, which is what you claimed.Furthermore, if Hitler had always wanted war, why did he ask for peace on day 2 before any Polish city was taken?
>>18026093Hitler’s books were written the previous decades and they didn’t actually state anything about imminent invasions you tard. The parts about war and living space literally has Hitler saying in the far future it will be a war against Asia and Europeans must make use of the Eurasian plain for resources if they want to win.Also, if Hitler wanted war, why the peace offer on day two?
Why does she run away when it’s pointed out Hitler asked for peace on day 2 after Danzig was secured?I think it is because this completely destroys the Hitler was a warmonger narrative.
>>18026093You sound like a nutcase redditor who cant accept any kind of nuance. I dont think you are, but you get the point of calling me /pol/ because I say what most historians agree on. You can literally fact check me by asking AI. There is NO consensus among historians that Hitler planned on invading Poland from the start. Deal with it moron.>Mein KampfHonestly Hitler walked back on a lot of things he wrote in Mein Kampf, historians largely agree that there were two sides of Hitler: Pragmatic & ideological.The pragmatic Hitler was dominant when he became the head of state and the early years of the war, and later the ideological Hitler became more dominant as the war went badly, and that's when we start to see the insane decisions and mass-murdering begin to materialize, like the holocaust.Now Hitler wrote a lot of things in Mein Kampf which he walked back on when he had actual responsibility of the state. Examples?Hitler rants in Mein Kampf that big business and international finance is a threat to Germany. When he becomes head of state he allies large industrialists because he wants a stable economy. Hitler was a radical reformists but he knew when to self-restrain and become conservative. He also rants about religion but once head of state he tries to reassure the church of non-intervention.He rants against England in Mein Kampf but once head of state he tries to seek friendly relations with England, signing armament agreements.You know who else wrote about his radical militant ideas but later became more pragmatic once head of state? Nelson Mandela.Now im not arguing that Hitler "became nice" or that the ideological Hitler never existed. It did, but Hitler wasnt insane or stupid, he was a human. You're just trying to reduce him to a simplified ideologically crazed madman who people just happened to follow, despite the fact that every freaking historian tries to tell you otherwise.
>>18026123I'd just like to add to this (because 2000 word limit) is that Lebensraum was likely always on Hitlers mind. Autarky was a core tenent of National-Socialism and it was absolutely a driving factor for Hitlers ambitions even in his 'pragmatic' sense. It's just that Lebensraum may not necessary have been envisioned the way we saw it play out once the war was ongoing. Hitler absolutely identified the USSR as Germanys primary threat and he idenitified the Ukraine as Germanys solution to achieve autarky. The question is more on what he does with Poland.Again, we have no proof that he was planning war and conquest with Poland from the start. We have proof yes, but we have about equal amount of proof that Hitler wanted Poland as an subservient ally to the German ambition. In the end, Hitler attempted both.
>>18026089None of these proves that Hitler PLANNED a war with Poland immediately. They simply state that Poland was the first to fall, but you're still ignoring the circumstances to the outbreak of the war.
>>18026063It's 50% if you count expansions of steel, chemicals, and other war materials industries.
>>18026092the Soviet army had Zhukov still, yes, but few others. The only reason they survived 1941-2 is because of lend/lease.>>18026079I figure a combined German / Polish strike in 1940 without worrying about the western flank - and certainly without lend/lease - could have taken down the tankies.
I'd play Germany and USSR diplomatically, giving them just enough concessions to make Poland less urgent as a target.
>>18026146>steel is an inherently expansionist sector of the economy
>>18026077>having a base in a forign land means you invaded itRetard
>>18026099>Hitler’s books were written the previous decades and they didn’t actually state anything about imminent invasions you tard. The parts about war and living space literally has Hitler saying in the far future it will be a war against Asia and Europeans must make use of the Eurasian plain for resources if they want to win.Cope.>The German people have no right to engage in colonialism until they have brought all their sons together in one state. Only when the territory of the Reich embraces all Germans and then finds itself unable to assure them a livelihood, only then will the moral right arise to acquire foreign territory. The plow will then become the sword, and the tears of war will produce our daily bread for generations to come.>And so we National Socialists consciously draw a line beneath the foreign policy tendency of our pre-War period. We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the east. At long last we break of the colonial and commercial policy of the pre-War period and shift to the soil policy of the future. If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only Russia and her vassal border states.>In delivering Russia over to Bolshevism, fate robbed the Russian people of that intellectual class which had once created the Russian state and were the guarantee of its existence. For the Russian state was not organized by the constructive political talent of the Slav element in Russia, but was much more a marvellous exemplification of the capacity for state-building possessed by the Germanic element in a race of inferior worth... This colossal empire in the East is ripe for dissolution. And the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state. We are chosen by destiny to be the witnesses of a catastrophe which will afford the strongest confirmation of the nationalist theory of race
>>18024906So you're cutting a year of taxes and industrial output out of it and that will help with defending Poland(it would most likely be taken over by Germany) because... It just will ok?
>>18027619It's absolutely clear that he was gunning for the USSR and wanted to colonize especially the Ukraine since it had the resources and farmlands that Germany needed to achieve autarky, thus 'securing its destiny' as a dominant power. He much viewed this as how USA created itself as a dominant state by encouraging interior settlement in the 1800s, and removing the natives living there. The question thus becomes what happens to Poland, and I don't think even Hitler himself really knew what becomes of Poland, but it's cleat he wanted the smaller central and Eastern states to commit themselves to the German sphere. That's why he at first attempted to bring Poland into the German fold by negotiations, and when that failed he switched to war-plans to subjugate Poland by force into the German sphere.
>>18028028>It just will ok?in reality it can't and thus didn't.but the loss of reputation is immeasurable
>18028129this talking point doesn't exist outside of russian propaganda and russian-funded useful idiot garbage. The average normie doesn't even know about munich.
>>18024268>>18024274>>18024295>>18024366>>18024366>>18024856>>18024876Poland started the war. The real question is: How would you survive as Germany? They were the ones in self-defence.
