Reading about the origin of the Illyrians, there is a "consensus" that they could originate from the Cetina culture (1900-1600), which in turn was an offshoot of the Vučedol culture. But here's where things get slow, the Cetina culture describes the early Cetina culture as a "syncretistic Bell Beaker culture", but the problem with being BB is that Vučedol is supposed to be related to the Paleo-Balkans? And Vučedol is described as being of Yamnaya origin culturally, not BB. So...? Were the Illyrians bell beakers? And would the Paleo-Balkans be represented by any culture? A variant of the Yamnaya is plausible
>>18024590>And would theAnd who would*
>>18024590>Vučedol is supposed to be related to the Paleo-Balkans? And Vučedol is described as being of Yamnaya origin culturally, not BB. So...? Were the Illyrians bell beakers?For one, I don't think Illyrians are actually related to (Daco-)Thracians. They have a much more western, Celt-like profile, so it does seem plausible to me that they could be related to Beakers to some extent. I think they lack the Beaker R1b signature though.
>>18024617>celtNo
>>18024590They were related to paleo-balkans
>>18024590Who were Liburnians? Many say they were not Illyrians.
>>18024590>>18024860That's why I've come to respect archaeology more, although yes, material culture is useful, Sometimes, small pots and random quantities of pottery mean nothing. This is the case with the "bell beakers culture" in this place. There is some material culture, but that's it. The Greeks and Romans had contact with more Western peoples and at no time did they call them that>>18024617Celts are no older than at most 1000 BC or even 900 BC, Vučedol is between 3000 BC - 2200 BC they cannot be Celtic
>>18024590there is no way to know, apart from "Albanian studies" which are 90% larp and 10% useless, we don't know what language they spoke just by culture and genetics, hell, we don't even have a way to know what the Dacians and Thracians' languages were like
>>18024890The Cetinian culture spoke a language belonging to the Illyrian-Messapic group, and its main speakers were descendants of the same group as the Illyrians and Iapygians in the Western Balkans in the Early Bronze Age. The closest language to Cetinian for which sufficient linguistic evidence has been found is Messapic in Apulia.
>>18024883Vucedol Culture with heavy Bell Beaker, their dead were mostly Buried and Cremated in Stone cists inside of TumulusBell beakers for sure
>>18024870Vucedol -> Ljubljana -> Adriatic -> Cetina, so they were at least Illyrian
>>180249022/2The Cetina culture developed in Dalmatia around the late third millennium BC, its infuence spread southwards to Greece and across the Adriatic sea to Italy/messapicThere’s Cetina type vases have been discovered in many sites in Apulia, and some have been found even further South.
>>18024890We actually know https://journals.linguisticsociety.org/proceedings/index.php/PLSA/article/view/5178/4879
>>18024890>we don't even have a way to know what the Dacians and Thracians' languages were likenames suggest thracians spoke a member of some particular nameless IE branch. getae probably spoke another IE from the same branch. dacians seem to have given names to their settlements in a highly derived iranian.
>>18024945>>18024890The consensus among the Albanologists is that they were Daco-Thracian speaker, Vladimir Georgiev wrote the best works on the matter. It's reflected in their autosomes and Y-DNA; their primary Y-DNA is E1b, and is absent among all Illyrians, but omnipresent among Thracians, and even appears among Moldovan Dacians. Autosomally, they have a stronger "Eastern" pull that separates them from the Illyrians; any coincidental clustering is because of recent Slavic admixture.
>>18024895No, they weren't derived from bell beakers, but actually yamnaya
>>18025231>Haploautism>low knowledge of linguistic Keep your mouth shut
>>18025249I am aware that language/culture and DNA don't go always hand in hand ( Indo-iranians may be an example). I've read that Albanian shows isoglosses with Germanic and Thracian showed similarities to balto-slavic, and these theories seem supported by genetics, though by "supported" I mean in a very weakly sense merely hinted at. They were derived from bell beakers
>>18025315>bell beakers No..What exactly makes you say Illyrian would come from anywhere from the north? Most soberly Illyrian is a result of the Yamnaya migration to the Balkans with some later intermediate to form the Cetina culture in 2200bc
>>18025701The haplogroups
>>18026075J-L283 was a very rare lineage among Yamnaya but this did not stop them to found an entire society dominated by their clan(cetina culture). The same is likely to have happened to R1b-L51 and R1a wich were also minoritary in the steppes but where also yamnaya nonetheless
>>18024890>albanian studiesOn genetics the illlyrians were J2b-l283 and that’s proven by cetina genetics. J2b is an Albanian gene today. Albanians also have a strong presence of R1b-z2103, the direct Yamnaya root that’s also found in Mycenaeans. The Illyrians were not bell beakers that were virtually all R1b-P312. Messapic language studies clearly shows relation with modern Albanian so the illyrians spoke a proto Albanian language as opposed to Celtic.
>>18025231This doesn’t mean anything, E1b is a farmer gene found in ancient copper age samples from Hungary and Croatia. Modern Albanians are E1b, J2b and Yamnaya R1b and that was the majority haplos of the Illyrian people with the elites being J2b or R1b. Albanians pull east from the Roman era migrations of Anatolians and mixing with Slav women as well as adopting foreign groups that settled the land.
Cetina culture predates Glasinac-Mati & it influenced it. They have the same west Balkan, Proto-Illyrian origin which is evidenced by the fact that both spread patrilineages like J-L283 & R-Z2103 in their upstream clades. Their ancestors were the same population
>>18025315What? Illyrians only have marginal material influence from bell beaker, they derive from post-yamnaya Balkan groups such as cetina. Thracian is closer to hellenic and in my opinion from the multi cordon ware culture, and cimmerians were iranic and from the chernogorovka complex.
>>18026153Correct
>>18024590>Mathieson et al. 2018 archaeogenetic study included three samples from Dalmatia: two Early & Middle Bronze Age (1631-1521/1618-1513 calBCE) samples from Veliki Vanik (near Vrgorac) and one Iron Age (805-761 calBCE) sample from Jazinka Cave in Krka National Park. According to ADMIXTURE analysis they had approximately 60% Early European Farmers, 33% Western Steppe Herders and 7% Western Hunter-Gatherer-related ancestry. The male individual from Veliki Vanik carried the Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a1-L283 while his and two female individuals mtDNA haplogroup were I1a1, W3a1 and HV0e. Freilich et al. 2021 identify the Veliki Vanik samples as related to the Cetina culture (EBA-MBA western Balkans)Bell Beakers were mostly Steppe and had no J2b.
>>18026361what the OP read was that the post-Vučedol cultures had some marginal bell beaker influence. and it is iaso.
>>18026361>>18026353Very low steppe
>>18026361Bell Beakers and Yamanaya were phenotypically different, genetically not the same YDNA and had different languages. The Yamnaya were also the tallest post antediluvian population in Europe.>A 2022 study by Lazaridis et al. found that the typical phenotype among the Yamnaya population was brown eyes, brown hair, and intermediate skin colour. None of their Yamnaya samples were predicted to have either blue eyes or blond hair, in contrast with later Steppe groups in Russia and Central Asia, as well as the Bell Beaker culture in Europe, who did carry these phenotypes in significant proportions.[13]
>>18026368What did you expect? See here>>18026344We don't have any Vučedol samples, but they're probably like Logkas. Now, who the Paleo-Balkans were is another question, but they could be the Yamnaya from Bulgaria
>>18026368Another samples can reach 39/40%Pretty high when compared to italians or Thracians for example.
>>18026075J-L283 is Yamnaya and Paleobalkan peoples had already assimilated non-Yamnaya lineages in their ethnogenesis (E1b)
>>18025231Actually linguists do not point to an Illyrian origin of Albanian but of another paleoBalkan langauge related to it.
>>18026388Yes, dardanian
>>18026391Not necessarily, but albanists can seethe
>>18026394Yes, you’re seething that all the ydna points to that.
>>18026397Paleobalkan doesn't mean Illyrian, fucking useless being We don't even know if there was such a thing as a unified Illyrian language, so seethe and KYS We don't know how many other Paleobalkan languages were spoken in the area and from which peopleSpeculation is not history, tard.
>>18026397Bro, sorry, you aren't even "Illyrian", neither PB stop the larp, Illyrians are J-L283. Dardanians are E-V13.
>>18026401>>18026405This faggotry with extra steps. Considering Albanians have all the Illyrian dna, and the closet autosomalDNA to Illyrian samples besides north Italians which is due to other factors. E-V13 is a paleo-Balkan gene or maybe it came from the Black Sea with the yamnaya. You can still cope.
>>18026413You lost ;)Muttbanians are more Slavic on average than Greeks, albanian identity *did not* form out of Illyrian but from illiterate central Balkan mountain shepherd. See Matzinger, he doesn’t support an Illyrian origin lol.
>>18026418Plenty of other linguists that see a direct continuity. Albanian gegs are 70% native YDNA, now compare to other groups of “Europeans” that have been mutted like Germans that aren’t even 50% Germanic.
>>18026413? they were ethnically distinct and ethnically closer to Eastern Balkaners.Why do you still claim to derive e-v13 from them? how come? Its a pre-IE lineage, E-V13 is a Haplogroup originates from the so-called Neolithic peoples.Can you show me a single Illyrian belonging to e-v13 that’s not Thracian derived?
>>18026421>linguistics Not a good argument>>18026401proto-Albanians were not Illyrian.considered to have been Illyrian or not. there are distinctions in the development of IE sonorants proves that the proto-Albanians were not Illyrian, but something else.
>>18026435I forgot the pic
>>18026430>>18026435E-V13 were the farmers of the Royal Illyrians. E-V13 samples in Hungary and Croatia dating to 4000 bc. So they were the natives all throughout the balkans. Illyrians were a meta ethnicity so Albanian descends from proto Albanian which is probably dardanian. The Palaeo-Balkanic Indo-European branch based on the chapters "Albanian" (Hyllested & Joseph 2022) and "Armenian" (Olsen & Thorsø 2022) in Olander (ed.) The Indo-European Language Family
>>18024590Linguistically IEracially Yamna-EEF and a bit of WHGProto-Illyrians would probably cluster with Celts before the southward migration
>>18026442Your e-v13 is Thracian, not Illyrian. The Illyrians did not carry e-v13, and there’s likewise no Dardanian e-v13 sample (still waiting for you to send one). You’ve dug a hole you cannot come out of lol.Shows to us any illyrian or dardanian with E-v13. End of the conversation
>>18024903This was probably during the Liburnian colonial expansion traditionally dated 900-600 BC
>>18026446>celtsNo>>18026373
They descend from Yamnaya-derived Indo-Europeans who lived in a Balkan setting that adopted some Bell Beaker traits through the Cetina culture.
>>18026449>show us a sampleRemember that Slav trannies were insistent that no Albanian had any ydna related to illyrians until vucedol (R1b-z2103) and Cetina (J2b) studies came out. You can stop being jealous, it’s over.
>>18026449Thracians were the same race as Illyrians thoughbeitMaybe more Hellenized culturally
>>18026442Not only are the Dardanians not considered Illyrian, but the only Illyrian onomastics are present where the Pirustae were found NoALL the toponyms in Dardania are overwhelmingly Thracian (including Dardapara in Dardania) and even the prefix Dard appears throughout Thrace and Dacia in onomastics (Dardiola, Derdipilus, Dardisanus, etc).
>>18026473No, they weren't>>18026476""Thraco-Illyrians"" did not have a split because there was’t a Thraco-Illyrian branch to begin with. One is centum and the other one is satem, belonging to completely different paleo-Balkan PIE branches.
>>18026467You couldn't show any sample, i.e.You lost and a i accept your concession, obey me and shut up>>18026476Dude? Hes a albanist, like Nordicists and kangz, a gigatard
>>18026484I suspected, people on this forum are so problematic and get their information from Wikipedia
>>18026456The world they came from was mostly Celtic or Scythian, proto-Germanics were further northIllyrians were not Scythian so by exclusion they were proto-Celtic
>>18026461Which "traits"? Some shitty pottery? Great "influence" isn't?
>>18026488Retard, get out>>18026476Messapic is also half-satem and is equally related to Armenian as it is to Albanian i don’t see Armenians larping why? Albanians are we wuzers like afrcians, or maybe even more
>>18026476The Romans considered them illyrians. The official consensus is they were an Illyrian-Thracian hybrid population. I think you need to quiet down queer since all the dna studies support Albanians and it’s only just the tip of the iceberg.
>>18026498Svetoid you can pilpul all you want but Albanians are the only real people that descend from illyrians and therefore Bosnia belongs to Albanians.
>>18026480Where do you think the Illyrians came from?The same place the Thracians, Getae, Dacians, Dorians, Myceneans came from
>>18026498>muh Armenianare you pretending to be this illiterate?Nobody thinks Messapians or Yapiges were Armenian immigrants, when they have clear Illyrian origins
>>18026499>The Romans considered them illyrians. They didn't, If this argument is to be considered, the Greeks did not consider them the same. Using authors was not a good argument here.>The official consensus What is "official"? What kind of consensus are we talking about here? This is very vague and not very academic or even logical. I'm afraid you might not understand linguistics.How and who determined the "consensus"? Linguistic academia doesn't support such claims, since most Dardanian toponyms have Thracian suffixes (and actually aren't explained through Albanian). Do you see anyone claiming albanians came from the Carpathian and the Beskids just because of "karpë" and "bjeshkë"? The mere fact that the two languages (illyrian and Thracian) had distinct developments implies that they’re two languages. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be a difference to Albanian and Illyrian IE sonorant treatment. Illyrians came from cetina, and the daco-Thracians of the Incised Ware horizon evolved in the Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna group. Thracians have been first recorded in the time of the Iliad, which would chronologically and spatially fit with the Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna culture, Also, their languages and cultures were different
>>18026517It has already been explained in this thread more than once, go up with your mouse and you will see that the origin of the Illyrians is not some archaeological mystery
>>18026527>languagesReligion*
>>18026527Some sources
>>18026527And yet Albanians today have Illyrian J2b and z2103 /PF7576 at a combined 40% for gegs.
ok? we came to a conclusion that they were cetina and derived from yamnaya but no one here answered where the Paleobalkan comes from or who it was
>>18026540Strabo calls dardanians as illyrians.
>>18026527seethe servtrannyhttps://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1.full
>>18026546was a rich population and derived from the Yamnaya, perhaps from Moldova or Bulgaria, as I have postulated before, although there are some correlations with the Multi-Cordoned Ware culture in the Balkans, BB childhood as already mentioned by others, is sometimes maximized
>>18026548Unfortunately, although it may seem arrogant, you are quite ignorant and probably didn't understand even 1/3 of my post>>18026527In short, no. They weren't, there is no reason to believe so, whether in linguistics or material culture. And if the argument must necessarily be based solely on confirmation bias by ancient authors, it is still flawed. Because the Greeks always treated them as different peoples. Thank you for your attention.
>>18026556Yes the Greeks treated dardanians as different because they were Illyrians.
>>18026551People should read their own sources before posting, this has become a circus, I must say.>The most recent linguistic hypotheses propose a sister-group relationship of Albanian to Greek or to the Greek-Armenian clade (18, 38, 39), which firmly places the origin of the language in the Balkans but does not pinpoint the location of the proto-Albanian homeland within the peninsula and its potential affiliation to historically attested populations.>However, in agreement with linguistic studies, we find that Albanians likely descend from a surviving West palaeo-Balkan population that experienced significant demographic increase approximately between 500-800 CE >while there is no indication of the survival of “Illyrian” following the first centuries of Roman rule (7, 8). Furthermore, Albanian displays Latin loans from both the Western and Eastern Balkans (85), which attests to linguistic influences beyond the confines of modern AlbaniaI will have to ignore you due to willful ignorance and lack of reading (and this study has been updated, you idiot)>>18026543You confused me with another guy who isn't even here, what a shame. But you can keep talking to yourself if you want. But as already mentioned, Illyrians are not synonymous with Albanians, to your dismay.
>>18026568As I said before, your ignorance is what makes you write things without thinking, but yes, we agree that the Greeks considered both groups different with different cultures and different languages, as attested in other areas, be they linguistic or archaeological, thank you for the support and that's it, there is nothing more to say, the final verdict was mine, not yours.
>>18026546Vučedol
>>18026573The onus is on you to debunk any relation between illyrians and Albanians and since Albanians have quite a lot of confirmed Illyrian genes then you aren’t in any position to win any points.
>>18026573>>18026578fucking mongoloids>Remarkably, Albanian paternal ancestry shows continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations, including those known as Illyrians. Our results provide an unprecedented understanding of the historical and demographic processes that led to the formation of modern Albanians and help locate the area where the Albanian language developed.from the link I just postedgo ahead and refute it
>>18026580>VučedolNo. This wasn't the Paleobalkan population, just one of the cultures that Cetina derived from to form the Illyrians. We're still not sure which specific archaeological proxy or culture the PB were, although they were certainly a group derived from Yamnaya. Leeming, David A. wrote a book where he discusses Paleobalkan mythology; it's worth checking out.
>>18026578>linguisticwhat does bardylis mean?you're so dumb it's not even funny
>>18026590the problem is that we know that Greek is closer to Phrygian than other Balkan languages. I don't think Greek came from the steppes but from Anatolia.
>>18026595>the problem is that we know that Greek is closer to Phrygian than other Balkan languages.I don't know exactly what this has to do with the thread or with the Albanians above, but that's not the case. Phrygian has more innovations and morphology in common with Armenian than with Greek, and again, I didn't quite understand what that was supposed to mean.>I don't think Greek came from the steppes but from Anatolia.It is true that Anatolia had very close contact with Greek, but they did not come from Anatolia, the languages are not only different, there is no genetic support, we already know what the Proto-Greek profile was like, they came from Thessaly
>>18026603>Phrygian has more innovations and morphology in common with Armenian than with GreekSources for your claim?
>>18026608https://diposit.ub.edu/dspace/bitstream/2445/124508/1/BOC_PhD_THESIS.pdf
>>18026615>>18026608but of course Phrygian is brin fragmented, so a lot can change
>>18026595Wrong they were logkas not Anatolians>>18026551>>18026587Albanian retard living up to his 83 IQmonkey, don't say they're IllyriansThey don’t have meaning in albanian lmao
>>18026628*it dont says they're illyrians
>>18026628He clearly did not read what the article actually implied; the authors even attest that the proto-Albanian homeland is not defined within the peninsula and its potential affiliation to attested populations
>>18026633I think I know this retarded guy, he's from xiiter a very famous account that writes like him and keeps posting this study
>>18026498Ironically true Lmao
>>18026633The study literally says derived western Balkan population. Slavshits are low iqs
>>18026543The proto-Albanians were semi-Romanized, while Constantine and Justinian hailed from fully Romanized places.
>>18026652First, someone anonymous already gave you a lesson in arguments, and now it's my turn to "educate" you, swamp rat.1.You're free to agree with me.I m not slav2. And you discovered that the Illyrians lived in a completely different place from where Albanians live today? It must be just a mere geographical fluke.3. And you have a complete genetic breakdown with ancient sources? I'd love to see those qpAdmixture models, if you don't mind sharing them. I'm sure they'll be super interesting and won't make you seeth?4. And best of all, modern Albanians can't be genetically modeled with Illyrian samples from the same region? LMAO LMAO LMAO, that's hilarious! As if genetics were an exact science and not mere alabanist speculation. And you still have the nerve to say that the Albanian IQ doesn't come from gcope25? You're a genius, some* Illyrian ancestry doesn’t make you Illyrian, as in order to be ethnically related to an ethnic group,The Illyrians were not proto-Albanian or pre-proto-Albanian. Its OVER
>>18026664>IQ doesn't come from gcope25?courage to say that they also come from the slaves you hate so much**corrected and even the g25 shows this
>>18026664You can’t even educate yourself and you’re going to school me? Albanians live in modern illlyrian territories, I didn’t suggest otherwise. How you think we don’t is retarded. Dardanians were known as illyrians according to Strabo. >subhuman babblingYou’re not making a coherent argument. Yes Albanians have majority Illyrian paternal that is not up for debate. How you say this is minor is just indication of your ignorance. >illyrians were not proto AlbaniansSorry, same YDNA. How can you be this stupid and double down so hard just because you can’t admit Albanians are more native than you? You are a seething slavoid for sure.
>>18026654>romanizedAnd? It’s not like they had any ancestry directly from Latinum. They were illyrians.
>>18026664Albanians have the closest autosomal dna to Illyrians besides north Italians and maybe Spainards depending on the sample. Look, you’re a retard and you can’t even cope anymore because Albanians have their majority YDNA Illyrian (j2b, R1b-z2103/PF7576) and farmer (e-v13). You lost slavoid.
>>1802671370% Illyrian or farmer dna. Slav(e)s itt will cope by saying e-v13 is eastern Balkan even though they’re pull shit out of their ass and E-V13 is a paleo Balkan gene and the e-v13 of modern Albanians is native to the region were Albanians currently reside and have always reside (it used to be all the western balkans before slavoids got lucky with plague and turkics doing most of the damage to us).
>>18026628>smrd reading comprehension I posted an actual study you dumb gypsyyou posted a screenshot that agrees with the link I posted
>>18024890Albanians probably aren't Illyrians, but they are paleo-Balkanites of some sort. Too many Proto-Albanian toponyms are from the Eastern Balkans (specifically the Morava valley and land east of the Vardar river), in other words outside of the Illyrian language's historical range. They could be the linguistic descendants of Thracians or Paeonians or something.
>>18027991Adding to this, Albanian and Eastern Romance (Romanian + Aromanian) clearly borrowed from each other, and the densest area of Eastern Romance toponyms in the Balkans is South-Central Bulgaria and southeastern Serbia.
>>18026739>It's Slavic propaganda to place the Albanian urheimat in lands currently part of Slavic countriesDoesn't this actually support Albanian irredentism though
